Does the Bible say we are Sinners?

Sons to Glory! · 10-26-2019, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

we have a dual status, we are sinners saved by grace, so we are also sons of God.

Two natures then?

Raptor · 10-26-2019, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Two natures then?

Yes. We will have the sinful nature, the fallen flesh until we die or are raptured.
STG, you know this already.

Trapped · 10-26-2019, 09:15 PM

StG, are you trying to ask the question of "are we sinners because we sin, or do we sin because we are sinners"?

Which inevitably involves the example of a little baby to make the point.......is a three week old baby a sinner just a few steps into the game?

I'll make a few comments which may or may not pertain to what you are aiming for. These are my personal thoughts, and I haven't taken the time to look up verses to see if they are 100% sound.

1. Adam and Eve were created with not a fallen human nature, but a full human nature. They were not created with a fallen sinful nature, but a full human nature that had the equal ability to sin or not sin, without having an inherent propensity toward either.

2. When Adam and Eve chose to sin, sin thus entered the entire human race and man's nature became a fallen human nature. Both Adam and Eve fell, so their kids could only also have this same fallen nature.

3. Jesus was born not with a fallen human nature, but with a full human nature, just as Adam and Eve had at their initial creation.....He had the equal ability to sin or not sin just as Adam and Eve originally had.....and was tempted in every respect, yet did not sin. Amazing.

4. Because everyone after Adam and Eve were born with a fallen human nature, except Jesus, everyone has this sinful nature that inherently causes us to sin. It's my personal belief that we are sinners because we have the sinful nature which causes us to sin, not that we sin because we are sinners. You can't be something unless you have done it. You can't be a bricklayer unless you have actually laid bricks. You can't be a computer programmer unless you have programmed computers. You can't be a sinner unless you have sinned.

With that logic (that others may disagree with) in mind, it seems to me that we can say we all have the sinful nature and are born with the sinful nature. Every baby is born with a sinful nature. But can we say that baby is a sinner before it has committed its first sin? I personally don't see how. Eventually enough time will pass and the baby will grow enough to consciously disobey and commit its first sin, at which point it will be an actual sinner. Before that point I don't see how we can say it is a sinner, but we can say it has a sinful nature.

So if anyone is conscious enough to be asking or wondering whether or not they are a sinner, by that point, yes, they are sinner!

Sons to Glory! · 10-28-2019, 10:45 AM

Yes we sin. But find a place where Paul calls us now "sinners." He may refer to himself as the "chief of sinners," but this is looking at himself in a most humble and repentant light because of how strenuously he persecuted the Lord (aka His church). No where does he identify us as sinners who have been born again.

What is then presented by in the New Covenant as the born again believer's identity? First of all, we are told various times that we are dead - crucified with Christ; a new creation. And not to look at the things we have died to, but rather to who we now are in Him. So in many ways, we are told that who we were is now crucified and that our old identity has been taken care of as we have been baptized into His death. We may not feel like our old self is dead and we may sin. But is that the reality of who we are, or is it what His word says about us?

And after this death in Him there is the "much more" of Romans 5, that is, once He has dealt with our old nature we are now ready to be filled with His life. Our rebirth is His life coming into us to make us a brand new creation in Him! Old things are passed away - BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW!

And we know that that which is born of God does not sin - so how come we still go off the mark so much? Romans 7 tells us that we do still have "the flesh" and that in it is sin and no good thing dwells there. But hallelujah, Romans 8:9 tells us clearly, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you." This tells us that you are not the flesh, but rather you are this new creation in Him!

So again, we may feel like sinners and want to identify with all the old thoughts and feelings as being who we really are (just an old sinner saved by grace), but what does the word say? "Put off the old (sinner) man" --- because that's not who we are! Think about it - what would happen if something had two competing identities and natures in them? It would tear itself apart. This is why the old nature is taken out of the way and nailed to the cross first. In faith we amen the word and say, "Thank you Lord my old man has been crucified with You! Help me, by Your awesome life in me, to live daily by this fact!"

If I may, the question that remains then, is why did God leave us with the sinful flesh?

Ohio · 10-28-2019, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes we sin. But find a place where Paul calls us now "sinners." He may refer to himself as the "chief of sinners," but this is looking at himself in a most humble and repentant light because of how strenuously he persecuted the Lord (aka His church). No where does he identify us as sinners who have been born again.

What is then presented by in the New Covenant as the born again believer's identity? First of all, we are told various times that we are dead - crucified with Christ; a new creation. And not to look at the things we have died to, but rather to who we now are in Him. So in many ways, we are told that who we were is now crucified and that our old identity has been taken care of as we have been baptized into His death. We may not feel like our old self is dead and we may sin. But is that the reality of who we are, or is it what His word says about us?

This takes us down that age old slippery slope that all those born of God cannot sin. (I John 3.9)

I may lie, cuss, steal, murder, and cheat ... but I cannot sin! And I got a verse to prove it!

Sons to Glory! · 10-28-2019, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This takes us down that age old slippery slope that all those born of God cannot sin. (I John 3.9)

I may lie, cuss, steal, murder, and cheat ... but I cannot sin! And I got a verse to prove it!

Huh!? No it doesn't. Did you read the thread through and consider the verses quoted?

I mean really - show me in the word bro. Can you really say that God sees believers as sinners?

Ohio · 10-28-2019, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Huh!? No it doesn't. Did you read the thread through and consider the verses quoted?

I mean really - show me in the word bro. Can you really say that God sees believers as sinners?

I think you are stuck on terminology.

Have you read I Cor 6.8-10? It's a whole lot worse than just being called a sinner.

Have you read II Tim 2.26-3.6? Sounds much worse than even Corinth was!

I think you are missing lots of verses, thinking they don't apply to believers, but only to the unbelievers.

After reading these verses, being called just a "sinner" is prolly the nicest thing someone could say about a believer.

UntoHim · 10-28-2019, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If I may, the question that remains then, is why did God leave us with the sinful flesh?

For the same reason that he allows the devil to remain as "the god of this world". For the same reason he allows evil men to do evil things. For the same reason that he allows natural disasters. (Hold on California...we're praying for you!) For the same reason he allows little children to get cancer.

God has allowed all these things for his glory. Many times we just cannot see how God is glorified through these things, but the fact is that he is glorified in these things. One day we will see. For now..."Trust and obey, for there is no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey".
-

Ohio · 10-28-2019, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If I may, the question that remains then, is why did God leave us with the sinful flesh?

Oh the POE! Not again!

The so-called "Problem Of Evil." We have spent so much time on this topic!

Raptor · 10-29-2019, 01:26 AM

STG, get out of your mind!

Sons to Glory! · 10-29-2019, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Oh the POE! Not again!

The so-called "Problem Of Evil." We have spent so much time on this topic!

So, what is the Cliff Note version of all that - why did God leave us with the flesh?

Ohio · 10-29-2019, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So, what is the Cliff Note version of all that - why did God leave us with the flesh?

Our faith needs trials.

This thread proves it.

10-26-2019, 09:15 PM	#3
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners? StG, are you trying to ask the question of "are we sinners because we sin, or do we sin because we are sinners"? Which inevitably involves the example of a little baby to make the point.......is a three week old baby a sinner just a few steps into the game? I'll make a few comments which may or may not pertain to what you are aiming for. These are my personal thoughts, and I haven't taken the time to look up verses to see if they are 100% sound. 1. Adam and Eve were created with not a fallen human nature, but a full human nature. They were not created with a fallen sinful nature, but a full human nature that had the equal ability to sin or not sin, without having an inherent propensity toward either. 2. When Adam and Eve chose to sin, sin thus entered the entire human race and man's nature became a fallen human nature. Both Adam and Eve fell, so their kids could only also have this same fallen nature. 3. Jesus was born not with a fallen human nature, but with a full human nature, just as Adam and Eve had at their initial creation.....He had the equal ability to sin or not sin just as Adam and Eve originally had.....and was tempted in every respect, yet did not sin. Amazing. 4. Because everyone after Adam and Eve were born with a fallen human nature, except Jesus, everyone has this sinful nature that inherently causes us to sin. It's my personal belief that we are sinners because we have the sinful nature which causes us to sin, not that we sin because we are sinners. You can't be something unless you have done it. You can't be a bricklayer unless you have actually laid bricks. You can't be a computer programmer unless you have programmed computers. You can't be a sinner unless you have sinned. With that logic (that others may disagree with) in mind, it seems to me that we can say we all have the sinful nature and are born with the sinful nature. Every baby is born with a sinful nature. But can we say that baby is a sinner before it has committed its first sin? I personally don't see how. Eventually enough time will pass and the baby will grow enough to consciously disobey and commit its first sin, at which point it will be an actual sinner. Before that point I don't see how we can say it is a sinner, but we can say it has a sinful nature. So if anyone is conscious enough to be asking or wondering whether or not they are a sinner, by that point, yes, they are sinner!

10-28-2019, 10:45 AM	#4
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,622	Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners? Yes we sin. But find a place where Paul calls us now "sinners." He may refer to himself as the "chief of sinners," but this is looking at himself in a most humble and repentant light because of how strenuously he persecuted the Lord (aka His church). No where does he identify us as sinners who have been born again. What is then presented by in the New Covenant as the born again believer's identity? First of all, we are told various times that we are dead - crucified with Christ; a new creation. And not to look at the things we have died to, but rather to who we now are in Him. So in many ways, we are told that who we were is now crucified and that our old identity has been taken care of as we have been baptized into His death. We may not feel like our old self is dead and we may sin. But is that the reality of who we are, or is it what His word says about us? And after this death in Him there is the "much more" of Romans 5, that is, once He has dealt with our old nature we are now ready to be filled with His life. Our rebirth is His life coming into us to make us a brand new creation in Him! Old things are passed away - BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW! And we know that that which is born of God does not sin - so how come we still go off the mark so much? Romans 7 tells us that we do still have "the flesh" and that in it is sin and no good thing dwells there. But hallelujah, Romans 8:9 tells us clearly, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you." This tells us that you are not the flesh, but rather you are this new creation in Him! So again, we may feel like sinners and want to identify with all the old thoughts and feelings as being who we really are (just an old sinner saved by grace), but what does the word say? "Put off the old (sinner) man" --- because that's not who we are! Think about it - what would happen if something had two competing identities and natures in them? It would tear itself apart. This is why the old nature is taken out of the way and nailed to the cross first. In faith we amen the word and say, "Thank you Lord my old man has been crucified with You! Help me, by Your awesome life in me, to live daily by this fact!" If I may, the question that remains then, is why did God leave us with the sinful flesh? __________________ *LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now*

10-29-2019, 01:26 AM	#10
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 419	Re: Does the Bible say we are Sinners? STG, get out of your mind!