1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[Sons to Glory!]

Yeah, that could be. But also I've been seeing that our sense of time is not that good. For instance, everyone says time seems to go quicker the older one gets. This makes sense, because a year to a ten year old is one tenth of their life - seems like a long time. However, to a 60 year old, one year is just 1/60th - relatively speaking not as long. So how does a year seem to someone who is ancient? I suspect it's quite momentary (as in our "momentary light affliction"). The Bible says a man's life is like a fleeting vapor - here and then gone almost immediately. In the Old Testament, for instance, several hundred years passed before God fulfilled the promise to give the children of Israel, captive in Egypt, the good land. So what is even a thousand years then in God's wise timing?

From our perspective, it's a very, very long time. From His perspective, I think it's "quickly."

[awareness]

It's been only 2 days.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yeah, that could be. But also I've been seeing that our sense of time is not that good. For instance, everyone says time seems to go quicker the older one gets. This makes sense, because a year to a ten year old is one tenth of their life - seems like a long time. However, to a 60 year old, one year is just 1/60th - relatively speaking not as long. So how does a year seem to someone who is ancient? I suspect it's quite momentary (as in our "momentary light affliction"). The Bible says a man's life is like a fleeting vapor - here and then gone almost immediately. In the Old Testament, for instance, several hundred years passed before God fulfilled the promise to give the children of Israel, captive in Egypt, the good land. So what is even a thousand years then in God's wise timing?

From our perspective, it's a very, very long time. From His perspective, I think it's "quickly."

Actually, there is good scientific basis for the thousand years/one day phenomena. Scientists as eminent as the late great Stephen Hawking in his study of black holes in deep space (I suggest his book "A Brief History of Space and Time"), and even Albert Einstein with his Theory of Relativity, have long contended that Time does not run at the same pace throughout the entire universe.

For example, if you were to travel in a rocket ship to the gravity well of any nearby black hole, the immense forces of gravity at work there would warp the passage of time for you relative to the passage of time on the Earth . In effect, what might pass as five minutes for you near that black hole would parallel the passing of five years on Earth (this is just an illustration; for more accurate calculations consult the NASA website).

Unfortunately, since the nearest black hole is light years away doing an actual experiment is out of the question for now. Plus, black holes not only affect Time, but also bend and trap light waves as well so that they cannot escape; and so any return from such an experiment with our current technology might not be likely. (E = MC squared, when extrapolated, shows a close correlation between the speed of Light and Time)

However, the above limitations notwithstanding, it has been amply demonstrated that Time runs differently EVEN within the Earth's orbit. NASA discovered that Atomic Clocks that spent a considerable period (months) on the International Space Station ticked slower than their counterparts on the surface, albeit by only a few seconds, even though they were initially synchronized to billionths of a second.

All said and done, I find it amazing that a simple, uneducated fisherman living over two thousand years ago knew by faith what we are only discovering now with our advanced instruments and so-called scientific enlightenment. And it is no wonder. Not so long ago, while the whole world believed the Earth to be flat, the oldest book in the Bible, Job, spoke of the 'circle of the earth'. I think the Psalmist, too, points out how the planet is, in fact, round, in much the same words. Simply amazing.

After all, Paul did say that 'the foolishness of God is wiser than men' (1 Cor 1: 25)

Grace to all the believers on here,
I apologize for all the rambling, folks.

GN

[Jay]

One of the things that I hate about this subject is the fact it's so central to the local church culture and behavior. We could even say it's a driving force in the LC. From a very young age my mother was giving me fear with this concept. Which I don't think was good in hindsight. I believe it to some degree damaged my psyche. My older brother also had a large fear of the darkroom and he says it caused psychological damage, and now he doesn't believe God is real. Whether it's part and parcel of a method of control may be or may not be, but for sure it's one of the major themes in the recovery

With that said I believe it's true. It's biblical and makes perfect sense when reading the Bible in context as a whole. But it's something that is so permeated in the recovery that I would say it causes divisions. There are like an "inner circle" of recovery members in probably just about every locality who for whatever reason are more gung ho than the rest. And probably in these ones minds they are the overcomers of that locality. And I've heard brother Lee say as much. He's said that the overcomers are smaller in number and not everyone in the recovery will be an overcomer and etc. Like I said I feel like it's a point of division and judgement. I myself have been judged like this before

I remember one time in Bellevue when I first moved there from Spokane, the elder there at the time (he's since passed) would watch football games at home. And sometimes he would talk about it in the meetings. It was odd to me coming from Spokane because the saints in Spokane were not worldly like that. I think the majority of them didn't even own televisions. And at the time I was of that same mind. I felt like TV was just solely the world. And I still somewhat do feel that way. But also I've since learned a lot about asceticism and have eased up on my feelings about certain things. But to be sure it's definitely the world, and it's definitely worldly programming. It's just all in how you take it in I suppose. But back to the story, so at that time the leading elder was talking about football games, and I heard about it and felt it was odd and in my heart I felt like something was really wrong with that. But I was new to that locality and I was trying to fit in and I remember I tried to talk to this older brother about a football game and he goes "You'll have plenty of time to talk about football in the darkroom." And man did that irk me. I think to this day that's probably the single worst thing anyone in the recovery has ever said to me. It was his tone and the way he said it. And it was just the hypocrisy of that locality that got to me. Here you have elders who watch TV, own TV's, and openly talk about sports after the meetings, and yet you have another brother saying I would go to the darkroom if I watched sports. Crazy

Looking back I realize that there was just a really cliquey culture there and I realized later that the eldership there was wrong on many levels and it affected the young people in certain ways that made them act elitist. It's not that they shunned me totally or anything but just certain behaviors that they had was really elitist and exclusive and I often felt uncomfortable and judged. It was the first time I really experienced a negative church life culture. But that one instance really stood out and I'll never forget that

But yeah it's something that I think is so central to Lee's ministry and so central to the impetus for the entire recovery that kind of all burgeons into the cult like behavior that we all recognize at this point. But it's a true doctrine that unfortunately many in Christianity do not know about for whatever reason. I usually come across two camps of believers in modern Christianity-the camp that believes everyone will be raptured and go directly to heaven. And the camp that thinks a believer can lose their salvation. Sadly neither of these camps are correct. And the latter is extremely damaging. Imagine believing that you can lose your salvation. Think how horrible that concept is to someone who is for instance struggling with sin. Just how much extra energy and pain and suffering, and consternation they must feel believing that. It's very very sad, and there are many out there who not only believe it, but they propagate it. Very troubling

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

One of the things that I hate about this subject is the fact it's so central to the local church culture and behavior. We could even say it's a driving force in the LC. From a very young age my mother was giving me fear with this concept. Which I don't think was good in hindsight. I believe it to some degree damaged my psyche. My older brother also had a large fear of the darkroom and he says it caused psychological damage, and now he doesn't believe God is real. Whether it's part and parcel of a method of control may be or may not be, but for sure it's one of the major themes in the recovery

With that said I believe it's true. It's biblical and makes perfect sense when reading the Bible in context as a whole. But it's something that is so permeated in the recovery that I would say it causes divisions. There are like an "inner circle" of recovery members in probably just about every locality who for whatever reason are more gung ho than the rest. And probably in these ones minds they are the overcomers of that locality. And I've heard brother Lee say as much. He's said that the overcomers are smaller in number and not everyone in the recovery will be an overcomer and etc. Like I said I feel like it's a point of division and judgement. I myself have been judged like this before

I remember one time in Bellevue when I first moved there from Spokane, the elder there at the time (he's since passed) would watch football games at home. And sometimes he would talk about it in the meetings. It was odd to me coming from Spokane because the saints in Spokane were not worldly like that. I think the majority of them didn't even own televisions. And at the time I was of that same mind. I felt like TV was just solely the world. And I still somewhat do feel that way. But also I've since learned a lot about asceticism and have eased up on my feelings about certain things. But to be sure it's definitely the world, and it's definitely worldly programming. It's just all in how you take it in I suppose. But back to the story, so at that time the leading elder was talking about football games, and I heard about it and felt it was odd and in my heart I felt like something was really wrong with that. But I was new to that locality and I was trying to fit in and I remember I tried to talk to this older brother about a football game and he goes "You'll have plenty of time to talk about football in the darkroom." And man did that irk me. I think to this day that's probably the single worst thing anyone in the recovery has ever said to me. It was his tone and the way he said it. And it was just the hypocrisy of that locality that got to me. Here you have elders who watch TV, own TV's, and openly talk about sports after the meetings, and yet you have another brother saying I would go to the darkroom if I watched sports. Crazy

Looking back I realize that there was just a really cliquey culture there and I realized later that the eldership there was wrong on many levels and it affected the young people in certain ways that made them act elitist. It's not that they shunned me totally or anything but just certain behaviors that they had was really elitist and exclusive and I often felt uncomfortable and judged. It was the first time I really experienced a negative church life culture. But that one instance really stood out and I'll never forget that

But yeah it's something that I think is so central to Lee's ministry and so central to the impetus for the entire recovery that kind of all burgeons into the cult like behavior that we all recognize at this point. But it's a true doctrine that unfortunately many in Christianity do not know about for whatever reason. I usually come across two camps of believers in modern Christianity-the camp that believes everyone will be raptured and go directly to heaven. And the camp that thinks a believer can lose their salvation. Sadly neither of these camps are correct. And the latter is extremely damaging. Imagine believing that you can lose your salvation. Think how horrible that concept is to someone who is for instance struggling with sin. Just how much extra energy and pain and suffering, and consternation they must feel believing that. It's very very sad, and there are many out there who not only believe it, but they propagate it. Very troubling

I would the combination of 1000 years outer darkness/being on overcomer is too much an emphasis in the local churches. I'd agree it is a driving force in the LC. Brothers and sisters lose sight of loving for today, taking care of relationships, etc.
I get what you're saying about Bellevue. I've been there. In the many prophesying meetings I attended, I can only recall one brother who had no shame exposing his soul life. Everyone else there was a lot of pretention.
Pretending we didn't have a soul life. Was it coincidental, that on Superbowl Sunday the lead elder would boo hoo churches that advertise watch the super bowl the afternoon following service? In the local churches, we were more private about that sort of thing. Superbowl Sunday 1996, I only remember that because it was the last time the Cowboys won a super bowl. One of the brothers in Bellevue was hosting a Superbowl party. For myself, living in the brother's house we didn't have a tv. If I wanted to watch a sporting event, I'd go to my uncle's home or another brother's home. However when we came to the meeting, there was no such talk what we enjoyed to do. So worldly. So soulish. Be in your spirit brother/sister.

I loved baseball, football, basketball. Didn't need a tv. A radio worked just fine. That goes back to my childhood. For the first few years living in Anaheim, my parents didn't have a tv and my dad enjoys sports. Our bonding time came from listening to Dodger games on the radio.

I really think serving ones do a disservice to the young children they're serving. They put fear into them with the focus on 1000 outer darkness, the gnashing of teeth versus being an overcomer. You don't want to miss out on the wedding feast.
When it comes down to it, everyone has a soul life and trying to live in denial is damaging. That's how I see churchkids being nurtured from an early age. They get programmed trying to be something they're not. If you cannot be a young brother/young sister who can buy into "Overcoming" 100%, there is going to be personal suffering.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I would the combination of 1000 years outer darkness/being on overcomer is too much an emphasis in the local churches. I'd agree it is a driving force in the LC. Brothers and sisters lose sight of loving for today, taking care of relationships, etc.
I get what you're saying about Bellevue. I've been there. In the many prophesying meetings I attended, I can only recall one brother who had no shame exposing his soul life. Everyone else there was a lot of pretention.
Pretending we didn't have a soul life. Was it coincidental, that on Superbowl Sunday the lead elder would boo hoo churches that advertise watch the super bowl the afternoon following service? In the local churches, we were more private about that sort of thing. Superbowl Sunday 1996, I only remember that because it was the last time the Cowboys won a super bowl. One of the brothers in Bellevue was hosting a Superbowl party. For myself, living in the brother's house we didn't have a tv. If I wanted to watch a sporting event, I'd go to my uncle's home or another brother's home. However when we came to the meeting, there was no such talk what we enjoyed to do. So worldly. So soulish. Be in your spirit brother/sister.

I loved baseball, football, basketball. Didn't need a tv. A radio worked just fine. That goes back to my childhood. For the first few years living in Anaheim, my parents didn't have a tv and my dad enjoys sports. Our bonding time came from listening to Dodger games on the radio.

I really think serving ones do a disservice to the young children they're serving. They put fear into them with the focus on 1000 outer darkness, the gnashing of teeth versus being an overcomer. You don't want to miss out on the wedding feast.
When it comes down to it, everyone has a soul life and trying to live in denial is damaging. That's how I see churchkids being nurtured from an early age. They get programmed trying to be something they're not. If you cannot be a young brother/young sister who can buy into "Overcoming" 100%, there is going to be personal suffering.

Yeah solid points. For sure we all have a soul life and we all partake of things to find happiness and contentment for our souls, to whatever degree. Even Paul alludes to this in one particular verse that I just can't remember right now. But it's something along the lines of 'even you care for your own souls' or something like that. It's also interesting to note that many times the Bible uses the word soul in different lights. sometimes it's in a good light such as a verse that says something like 'you preserve your souls to live for God' or something like that which kind of is talking about the soul as in the entire person. And then other verses the soul is used in a negative light, where Jesus says something like 'he who loses his soul life will find it.' Which if you understand the context of that verse he's basically saying the soul is fallen and corrupted and we need to deny it for this reason

At any rate I believe there's a fine line between denying the soul life and asceticism. And many times that line is very very blurry, and easily can be crossed over into legalism/asceticism as opposed to self denial. I suppose that's why they often say in the recovery that 'the cross is in the spirit.' which is a fantastic maxim that helped me a great deal when I was young and trying to forsake the world by throwing out all of my belongings. But I think that we can't deny our soul life by our own efforts. That's like using the soul to deny the soul, which is kind of where Paul was in Romans 7. But then in Romans 8 he tells us to use the soul to turn to the spirit. Particularly the will and mind. He's basically just saying "exercise your spirit, and do it by using the soul to get into the spirit." Then there's other concepts such as the spirit saturating the soul which is how we become transformed. And verses such as 'you have the mind of Christ' and 'be transformed by the renewing of the mind' and 'that Christ may make his home in your hearts through faith.' These verses are all strong indications that transformation takes place in our soul (mind, emotion, will)



But I think the better message as opposed to "you'll go to the darkroom if you do such and such thing," is "turn to your spirit and enjoy the Lord as much as possible and don't worry about the stuff that you can't change right now." Which I have heard many in the recovery also say in not so many words. But it's difficult because satan comes in to attack using our fallen conscience and we start feeling bad over things that God doesn't even care about. I feel like God cares more about us turning to our spirit than giving up certain things and going cold turkey for consecration. I also think a lot of young people fall into the mistake of being too extreme and it causes pain and suffering when they backslide. Which is why a solid healthy message is another recovery maxim- "you're where you're at until you're somewhere different." Which basically just alludes to the fact that transformation takes time and it won't happen by throwing out all of your belongings that may or may not be worldly, and to be comfortable and content in your station in life and not try to be overcomers without Christ. Only Christ can be the overcomer within us. And only by his life can we overcome. Otherwise we're just trying to fulfill the law through self effort, which is another huge mistake that many Christians make, even Paul

But with that said there for sure are things that do need to be tossed into the bin. And just frankly speaking when I was in Spokane they really had a lot of enjoyment of the Lord and a living out of the spirit, and in my estimation it was largely due to their corporately making strong efforts to forsake the world and give it up. And I've also often wondered if one of the major problems of Bellevue was because the leader there was kind of hypocritical in that he was often in his soul, and when I heard him talking about football like that after a meeting was over when everyone was still at the hall, and I think he even invited everyone over for a super bowl party like you said, that just never sat right with me

I think what we do behind closed doors is between us and God but to take that stuff into the church could stumble others. But I think in Spokane they really lived it, they didn't just talk the talk, they had really left the world in a real practical way in their personal lives, and I always respected that and feel it was a large reason they had so much life and love. There were times when they would just exude God and didn't even know it. I remember when I first started meeting with them when I was around twenty-one I felt like they just were permeated with the spirit of God, to such an extent that I felt like I could SEE GOD in them and their expressions. That was one of the biggest things in my life that confirmed the reality of God and confirmed that some in the recovery are really really close to God and God is with them