Outer Darkness?

[Bradley]

Hey guys,

So having only just recently come to grips with the fact that the ministry isn't what I thought it was and the churches are not God's unique flow on the earth, I'm confused as to what I should believe.

Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers?

This was one of my fears about leaving the church for a long time. It'd be nice to get clear on this matter.

Thanks

[Fuji]

Hey Bradley, when I read your post in the other thread, you mentioned that you are "in the world" - that you listen to worldly music and go to pub...my dear brother, there is nothing wrong with these acts and I personally think you are under the bondage of legalism which is common for many LC Members. For me it took also awhile to finally see the legalistic bondage I had after leaving LC. It takes time. But our God is full of grace.

I'm not sure about what you mean by "1000year of outer darkness". I do know that LC believes in a future 1000-year millienial kingdom and according to them only "the overcomers" will enter into it. But I never knew they said something like the ones who are not overcomers will be sent into darkness.

I personally am a strong amillennialist and as much as I admire Nee, his continuing partial rapture theory is also absurd to me. These however are not dividing issues but do remember that anyone who is in Christ, who partakes in Christ, is an overcomer. We all share His victory and the fear you have is absolutely not a fruit of the Spirit...!


I hope you will be set free from this fear. Legalism breeds fear and guilt but our Lord gives life and freedom.

[Bradley]

I hope you're right, Fuji!

The LC teaches that all the defeated believers, i.e. the 5 foolish virgins from Matt 25, will miss out on the millennial kingdom and will be cast out into 'outer darkness' for 1000 years where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It has always struck me as somewhat harsh, like salvation doesn't really help that much if I still have to worry about this 'damnation lite' for being a bad Christian.

When I go to the pub I'm still the nice guy I am everywhere else, right? I'd like to agree with you about that because I'm not being particularly horrible to anyone at the pub. I'm just in a certain location. I'd love to be able to just believe it's okay but the paranoia that maybe I'm just lying to myself is still there. As a result it's easier to just not think about it and not pray. That doesn't help my relationship with the Lord though.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bradley

Hey guys,

So having only just recently come to grips with the fact that the ministry isn't what I thought it was and the churches are not God's unique flow on the earth, I'm confused as to what I should believe.

Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers?

This was one of my fears about leaving the church for a long time. It'd be nice to get clear on this matter.

Thanks

Hi Bradley,

LSM has defined "defeated believers" to be all those in denominations, all those in so-called free groups, all those who leave the LC's, all those who are in LC's but not under LSM's control, all those who do not attend the FTT's, all those in the LC but don't function, etc. etc.

Did I miss anybody?

Exclusive sects like TLR thrive on fear-mongering. They peddle it like the politicians do. Unfortunately, it will take you some time for you to "purge out the old leaven." Yes, there are truths buried beneath LC teachings, but since they remain buried, they are like unsprouted seeds in legalistic soils spoiled by the toxins and pollutants of Lee's relgious system.

I encourage you to spend time getting reaquainted with Jesus and His word. Read the gospels. Build upon the relationship you had when you first met Jesus. He knows you, and He knows what you have been thru. The haunting fear of outer darkness does little to guide one's journey. I encourage you to spend time with the Lord discussing your life, both the failures and the positives. When I was passing thru a valley of the shadow of death similar to yours, I found reading slowly thru the Proverbs was helpful. Ask Him to introduce you to new friends. When you read, try to clear your mind of doctrines, and focus on the verse in front of you. Just you and Jesus and His words on the page. Inquire of Him for something new. Humble yourself to ask. Confess failures without blaming others. This is what I would call the real pray-reading, and provides the real healing of our soul.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

...I encourage you to spend time getting reaquainted with Jesus and His word. Read the gospels. Build upon the relationship you had when you first met Jesus. He knows you, and He knows what you have been thru. The haunting fear of outer darkness does little to guide one's journey. I encourage you to spend time with the Lord discussing your life, both the failures and the positives. When I was passing thru a valley of the shadow of death similar to yours, I found reading slowly thru the Proverbs was helpful. Ask Him to introduce you to new friends. When you read, try to clear your mind of doctrines, and focus on the verse in front of you. Just you and Jesus and His words on the page. Inquire of Him for something new. Humble yourself to ask. Confess failures without blaming others. This is what I would call the real pray-reading, and provides the real healing of our soul.

Well said, Ohio. I would add, get a new Bible...one without Lee's footnotes. I have an NIV I like to read, but for looking things up, I go to the BibleGateway website and search in the KJV because that's what I grew up reading. A wise person told me once to "read the Bible like it was a book." Just read it. That really helped!

When I left "it" I had fear also. One Bible search you might start with is the words "fear not."

Before I left, I prayed "Lord, please don't let go of me." He never has.

I also determined that I would no longer believe ANYTHING Witness Lee said. NOTHING. I believed THE BIBLE. ONLY the Bible. If Lee happened to line up with Scripture, so be it, but I don't believe it because Lee said it. I believe it because God said it.

I would encourage you not to look for a church. I know. Strange. Instead, look for God's people. Close your eyes to names on the doors, to doctrines, to teachings and organizations. However, if something doesn't sound right to you, it probably isn't. Don't ignore such a warning. We did this and got into troubls.

As you visit places, look for Christians who love Jesus and are seeking Him. Look for Christians who love one another. Keep your eyes open. If you do this...surely the church will find you.

Blessings to you Bradley and Fuji.

Nell

[OBW]

I would add on to Nell's remarks that you should never just rely on what quickly comes to you are being simply right or being a problem. The longer you were part of the LRC, the more that you first impression will tend to align with its teachings without thinking about it. You will gravitate to its meanings for words. You will presume that the things they thought were bad really are.

If you find yourself in some regular Christian church, you will have a reaction to a choir song, or an electric guitar and drums. Or you will first think you should refrain from taking one of the broken crackers or little-bitty juice cups for communion. And you will recoil at the use of the term "communion."

None of these things are bad. None of them are spiritually deficient. But we got trained that they are. You will have a sort of withdrawal effect when someone triggers one of those things.

But while I do not put much stock in what Lee said about it, there is a reference or two to "outer darkness" in the gospels. And depending on how you read certain parables, there is a question on the simplistic "once saved always saved" doctrine. And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification. But it is not clear. So my tendency is say that "whoever believes," not whoever believed, "shall not perish . . . ." Not sure what that means. It just raises questions.

But I can almost assure you that the things that are touted by the LRC as the ways to avoid outer darkness, the little dark room, or whatever terminology is wanted to be put on this alternate purgatory, are not it, there is some question as to what those verses mean. Those that dismiss it entirely are following a dogma just as much as those who follow Lee's teachings.

The real issue is that no matter how you read it, the answer is in believing (not just having believed), following, and obeying. And that last one more than any other is generally panned by the LRC. They despise obedience. They reject anything that could appear to be from the flesh as if the appearance makes it so. Be moving forward. Not stagnant or in retreat.

And as for whatever those outer darkness for 1,000 years may mean, even if they are actually something like Lee taught, it is not eternity. Allow it to spur you forward. Do not let it freeze you with fear. Do not let it be the reason that you just chuck it all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Well said, Ohio. I would add, get a new Bible...one without Lee's footnotes. I have an NIV I like to read ...

Great suggestions, Nell.

I like the WEB -- World English Bible -- similar structure to what we were used to. It seems to "fit." But I have other Bibles depending on whom I am with. I have grown to love the diversity which different versions provide. I got saved reading a paraphrased version called the "Greatest is Love," so I know there is no "perfect" translation.

Leaving the LC system, especially for the FTT's, is so similar to the early disciples leaving Judaism. Read the Gospel of John again and again. Don't think these young disciples did not have fears leaving the Synagogues and being shunned by old friends and family. It was scary at times! Think about it. Judaism supposedly was God's best. They daily heard how blessed they were compared to those evil (denomi)nations. Their lives revolved around the local Synagogue. They left a highly structured legalistic system, mostly bankrupt of real love, which basically decided much of their life for them. They "love" you if you stay, but no more "love" for those who leave.

Once Jesus came along, the disciples left their little circle of family and friends, starting a new adventure. Fears and warnings and condemnations, from within and without, daily surrounded them. Oh sure there were exciting times with Jesus healing the sick and shaming the hypocrites, but often their days ahead appeared quite ominous. Change was constant, which is frightening in its own right. Many couldn't handle it. Not an easy journey. They knew something was so special about Jesus, yet opposing voices, inside and outside, were everywhere.

Little is said in the Gospels, but I believe that Jesus spent some private and personal time with each of His disciples. He was preparing them to one day walk by His Spirit, the same journey each of God's children were required to make. It was to walk by faith, to walk by what is beyond even what we can see, or feel, or hear, or know. The same walk as father Abraham and the rest of the household of faith. Hebrews 11 shows us some of those, with both the glory and the hardships they encountered. But today everyone of them, without exception, would tell us it was all worthwhile. Even the martyrs would say they wouldn't trade their lives for the world.

[JJ]

I love Ohio's post too!

2 featured posts?

[Cal]

One of the things you'll find, Bradley, is during this time of separation from the LC the Devil will really try to accuse you and scare you. Fear of "outer darkness" is one of the things he will use against you.

It is not that we don't need to respect that the Lord requires things of us, or may even discipline us when we are judged. It is that the LCM-specific fears should be ignored and you should limit your concern to whether you are obeying the basic commandments to Christians. Are you loving, forgiving, honest, fair? Do you seek to live to God's glory?

Whether you attend the LC meetings, or are in "the Recovery" or read Witness Lee's ministry are not part of that deal. So don't worry about those.

So there is a balance. Yes, God expects us to live obedient lives, but no he doesn't expect us to live them out in Witness Lee's movement or according to Lee's proprietary vision.

God loves you. Find a simple, straightforward, non-weird church that does not try to control you. Keep it simple and stay positive.

My favorite Bible right now is the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV). It's written with a very limited vocabulary, I think about a fifth-grade level. It's great for kids, but I think it does a great job of conveying the essential meaning with minimal confusion. I use it for my daily reading.

[Evangelical]

Many Christians believe in hell for eternity for defeated Christians (they interpret outer darkness as hell not as literal darkness)..consider the 1000 year idea as a blessing. Its purpose is not punishment but training. Its a blessing that God puts us through training not hellfire.

But if Lee is wrong and outer darkness means eternal damnation then there is a lot more to worry.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If Lee is wrong...

This was one of the appeals about the recovery, having a solid interpretation of scripture that we all agree on so you can be confident that's what it means. Now its like I'm on my own again.

I suppose thats for the best because I have to actually study the word carefully, instead of just taking someone's word for it!

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Bradley

This was one of the appeals about the recovery, having a solid interpretation of scripture that we all agree on so you can be confident that's what it means. Now its like I'm on my own again.

I suppose thats for the best because I have to actually study the word carefully, instead of just taking someone's word for it!

The idea of Lee having a solid interpretation of scripture is just a myth. They may say Lee was using the Bible to interpret the Bible. But if you dig deep enough, you will find it is not the case.

Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.

Personally, I am inclined more to the view that Christians can fall from grace or leave their faith (or may be they think they believe in God but are actually not). And this will have consequences. Otherwise, a large part of the NT epistles would be unnecessary because those chapters were to teach the believers what not to do.

May be the more important question to ask is whether we truly want to live a life that is pleasing to God and are committed to seek and act in this direction, trusting He will lead us along the path and will judge us appropriately in the end.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by A little brother

The idea of Lee having a solid interpretation of scripture is just a myth.

Yes I know this, I was merely saying that the false sense of security thinking that you know the correct interpretation was nice, comfortable. But now I have no such security - because I realise Lee's faults.

I'm more of the 'can't lose salvation' camp also. You can lose fellowship with the Lord and His good pleasure, but even if you're a naughty son who needs discipline, you're still family.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bradley

. . . even if you're a naughty son who needs discipline, you're still family.

The failure of the gospel of Lee was that it made us introspective & more subjective than we already were. It became the 'gospel of me'. We'd ask ourselves, "Am I going to make it", i.e. achieve the 'kingdom reward' and avoid the 1,ooo-year 'outer darkness'. I believe this is just a house of mirrors. The more we'd look at ourselves, and measure ourselves, and consider ourselves, the more dis-oriented we'd become.

The gospel, the Bible, is about one lonely little man. One pious Jew. His family abandoned him. His disciples fled - the shepherd was struck and the sheep scattered. Those who remained jeered at him, "He trusted in God; let Him (the Father) save him (the Christ) now."

Christ lost everything. But as the scripture says, he trusted in God, and endured to the end; never losing his faith, his hope, or his love. It is his faith that now wells up within us, his hope and his love. It is his holy spirit that now gives us life and propels us forward to the prize of the high calling.

Any way I babble too much. As you can see it's a bad habit with me.

[Evangelical]

It may interest some, that Luther believed in purgatory, throughout the Reformation.

In Defense and Explanation on All the Articles (1521), Luther wrote:

The existence of a purgatory I have never denied. I still hold that it exists, as I have written and admitted many times, though I have found no way of proving it incontrovertibly from Scripture or reason. I find in Scripture that Christ, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Job, David, Hezekiah, and some others tasted hell in this life. This I think was purgatory... in short, I myself have come to the conclusion that there is a purgatory, but I cannot force anybody else to come to the same result.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.

The scripture provides much justification for purging / outer darkness / purgatory whatever you may call it. This does not mean we will perish, and it does not mean we will be judged for our sin. Rather the judgment seat of Christ (before the Millennium in contrast with the judgment of sinners afterwards) will reward or punish us based on our works.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The scripture provides much justification for purging / outer darkness / purgatory whatever you may call it. This does not mean we will perish, and it does not mean we will be judged for our sin. Rather the judgment seat of Christ (before the Millennium in contrast with the judgment of sinners afterwards) will reward or punish us based on our works.

I understand the justification of the outer darkness. Just that I couldn't find much information on what will happen afterwards. Will those being punished during the Millennium be restored to glory with the other believers?

It is easier to find verses saying it would be worse if believers turn their backs on Christ, for example,

2Pe 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I understand the justification of the outer darkness. Just that I couldn't find much information on what will happen afterwards. Will those being punished during the Millennium be restored to glory with the other believers?

It is easier to find verses saying it would be worse if believers turn their backs on Christ, for example,

2Pe 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

We are all responsible for what we know and how much we have been given. Those ones in these verses may have been believers, even ministers and teachers, born of the Spirit, and if so they will not perish for eternity. They also may be severely chastened by the Lord, however, especially for the damage they have caused to others. And this is the difficulty we face understanding scripture. Salvation in the Bible is far more complex than merely going to heaven or hell. Can one can "lose" his salvation temporarily due to His discipline and thus lose blessings, promises, rewards, and joy while being disciplined? I believe some will be rewarded for some of their works, yet still be disciplined "yet so as thru fire."

My personal feeling is that how much time and how severely we are disciplined depends on us. God's many children are an incredibly diverse lot, from those like Paul who were assured of promised rewards to some naughty prodigals who want nothing to do with God. There is no way to know the future of each one individually, since each will be treated separately by his/her own Master, but I believe in the end, in eternity, all believers will enter into glory with Him. After all is said and done, I believe we all will confess that our Lord is true, He is fair, and how irreproachable and inscrutable are His judgments, for out of Him and through Him, and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory forever, Amen!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It may interest some, that Luther believed in purgatory, throughout the Reformation.

In Defense and Explanation on All the Articles (1521), Luther wrote:

The existence of a purgatory I have never denied. I still hold that it exists, as I have written and admitted many times, though I have found no way of proving it incontrovertibly from Scripture or reason. I find in Scripture that Christ, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Job, David, Hezekiah, and some others tasted hell in this life. This I think was purgatory... in short, I myself have come to the conclusion that there is a purgatory, but I cannot force anybody else to come to the same result.

Please restrict your comments on this topic to Outer Darkness. If you wish to discuss purgatory, please do so by starting another thread.

Thank you--
Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are all responsible for what we know and how much we have been given. Those ones in these verses may have been believers, even ministers and teachers, born of the Spirit, and if so they will not perish for eternity. They also may be severely chastened by the Lord, however, especially for the damage they have caused to others. And this is the difficulty we face understanding scripture. Salvation in the Bible is far more complex than merely going to heaven or hell. Can one can "lose" his salvation temporarily due to His discipline and thus lose blessings, promises, rewards, and joy while being disciplined? I believe some will be rewarded for some of their works, yet still be disciplined "yet so as thru fire."

My personal feeling is that how much time and how severely we are disciplined depends on us. God's many children are an incredibly diverse lot, from those like Paul who were assured of promised rewards to some naughty prodigals who want nothing to do with God. There is no way to know the future of each one individually, since each will be treated separately by his/her own Master, but I believe in the end, in eternity, all believers will enter into glory with Him. After all is said and done, I believe we all will confess that our Lord is true, He is fair, and how irreproachable and inscrutable are His judgments, for out of Him and through Him, and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory forever, Amen!

Again, Ohio. Well said.

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It may interest some, that Luther believed in purgatory, throughout the Reformation.

It may interest you that Luther's goal was not to leave the RCC, but to reform it (and only a little, at that). And he did not think that RCC members were not Christian, but only that they failed to have surety about it.

And it may further interest you that the Lutheran church, at least in Luther's time, was only removed from the RCC by lack of association and a very few small doctrinal differences. Pretty much the same as the RCC in almost every way. Not much different from what the Anglicans did.

[Ohio]

Purgatory is the RCC equivalent of outer darkness. Purgatory also has scriptural basis in I Cor 3.13-15:

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

"Saved yet thru fire" defines purgatory. Of course, I have studied enough of RCC history to know how they used this verse and others to plunge the western world into the dark ages, robbing nations of all their wealth. But still, the verse stands, and it speaks to Christians, and not unbelievers.

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.

Personally, I am inclined more to the view that Christians can fall from grace or leave their faith (or may be they think they believe in God but are actually not). And this will have consequences. Otherwise, a large part of the NT epistles would be unnecessary because those chapters were to teach the believers what not to do

When I was in LC, in some conferences/ training that I went, there was some continuous mocking of Calvinism (even though I'm not a fan of it I don't like their mocking tone) and it's funny because at the same time many of them hold and insist the belief of"once saved always saved" and even more so double predestination, which is the common belief of many calvinists today.

I believe one reason of the epistles constantly telling believers what not do to is to encourage us not to fall back and also, to know that these are the fruits that are only capable to be produced as a result of living by the Spirit, since we all , despite being saved, often still live in the flesh.

I agree greatly that our primary job is to ask the Lord to give us a pure heart that wants to please Him and Him only, now we can only see dimly. When we desire Him only everything will come naturally and we shouldn't be suffering from condemnation as that described by brother Bradley. I hope we go on to use this forum to build each other up and restore one another in His love

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Fuji

...many of them hold and insist the belief of 'once saved always saved'

Yeah WL teaches it in the book 'the Joy, Assurance and Security of Salvation'.

The 'constant mocking' you mention - I'm guilty of that too. There's a real culture of ridiculing other Christians in 'Babylon', and everyone does it in the LC so its easy to slip into. Not that that's an excuse. I knew in doctrine that we were Laodicea and not Philadelphia but now its really a deep truth for me.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

Please restrict your comments on this topic to Outer Darkness. If you wish to discuss purgatory, please do so by starting another thread.

Thank you--
Nell

Its basically the same thing Nell. As Ohio has indicated. So I believe I am on topic.

If we want to include Catholics as Christians..then most Christians believe in some sort of intermediate between earth and heaven. Osas believers are a minority when considering that the largest denominations..catholic ortgodox anglican reject it.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We are all responsible for what we know and how much we have been given. Those ones in these verses may have been believers, even ministers and teachers, born of the Spirit, and if so they will not perish for eternity. They also may be severely chastened by the Lord, however, especially for the damage they have caused to others. And this is the difficulty we face understanding scripture. Salvation in the Bible is far more complex than merely going to heaven or hell. Can one can "lose" his salvation temporarily due to His discipline and thus lose blessings, promises, rewards, and joy while being disciplined? I believe some will be rewarded for some of their works, yet still be disciplined "yet so as thru fire."

My personal feeling is that how much time and how severely we are disciplined depends on us. God's many children are an incredibly diverse lot, from those like Paul who were assured of promised rewards to some naughty prodigals who want nothing to do with God. There is no way to know the future of each one individually, since each will be treated separately by his/her own Master, but I believe in the end, in eternity, all believers will enter into glory with Him. After all is said and done, I believe we all will confess that our Lord is true, He is fair, and how irreproachable and inscrutable are His judgments, for out of Him and through Him, and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory forever, Amen!

A classical Lee interpretation...no i should not say that..its not his view its the bibles. Good stuff. Not just Lee..many non osas people believe in Gods chastisement in the next life.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A classical Lee interpretation...no i should not say that..its not his view its the bibles. Good stuff. Not just Lee..many non osas people believe in Gods chastisement in the next life.

Stolen from Robert Govett and David Panton.

Many thanks to brother Lewis Schoettle Publishing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A classical Lee interpretation...no i should not say that..its not his view its the bibles. Good stuff. Not just Lee..many non osas people believe in Gods chastisement in the next life.

If we are saved by faith through His grace, then what do you say about those who apparently were born again in their youth, yet spent their life rejecting faith, refusing to believe in the cross of Christ, and rebutting the words of scripture? One notable false teacher in academia comes to mind. How can God now justify them when they refuse to believe?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If we are saved by faith through His grace, then what do you say about those who apparently were born again in their youth, yet spent their life rejecting faith, refusing to believe in the cross of Christ, and rebutting the words of scripture? One notable false teacher in academia comes to mind. How can God now justify them when they refuse to believe?

Osas is a false doctrine i believe. If Judas Iscariot a believer and disciple went to hell. Then any believer can.

What does not make sense to me is if Lee intended the outer darkness doctrine to keep people in the recovery out of fear..then why not just reject osas altogether or say that outer darkness is hell. Why not just say that if you leave the revovery you will go to hell. This suggests to me the doctrine was never designed to keep people in the recovery out of fear.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Osas is a false doctrine i believe. If Judas Iscariot a believer and disciple went to hell. Then any believer can.

What does not make sense to me is if Lee intended the outer darkness doctrine to keep people in the recovery out of fear..then why not just reject osas altogether or say that outer darkness is hell. Why not just say that if you leave the revovery you will go to hell. This suggests to me the doctrine was never designed to keep people in the recovery out of fear.

I don't think Lee rejected osas. He did not use outer darkness to keep people in the recovery out of fear. He used "overcomer" to lure people into the recovery out of self-righteousness. Fearing God was probably not his concern given he knew God's economy so well and was acting so diligently to help complete God's economy.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I don't think Lee rejected osas. He did not use outer darkness to keep people in the recovery out of fear. He used "overcomer" to lure people into the recovery out of self-righteousness. Fearing God was probably not his concern given he knew God's economy so well and was acting so diligently to help complete God's economy.

Is Christ asking us to be self-righteous here?:
Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne"

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Is Christ asking us to be self-righteous here?:
Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne"

The point is, God is the only judge to deteremine who are the overcomers.

I often heard brothers and sisters saying they want to be an overcomers as if this is the driving force on how they act. I cannot say this is totally wrong but they may be missing the target.

I strongly believe the true overcomers are those who don't care about whether they themselves would be an overcomer. They simply love and fear God, and care more about how to humbly serve Him and His people.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

The point is, God is the only judge to deteremine who are the overcomers.

I often heard brothers and sisters saying they want to be an overcomers as if this is the driving force on how they act. I cannot say this is totally wrong but they may be missing the target.

I strongly believe the true overcomers are those who don't care about whether they themselves would be an overcomer. They simply love and fear God, and care more about how to humbly serve Him and His people.

The way to be an overcomer is to not try?

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The way to be an overcomer is to not try?

Sorry if I didn't express it simple enough for you to understand.

We don't try to be an overcomer. We try to please God.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Sorry if I didn't express it simple enough for you to understand.

We don't try to be an overcomer. We try to please God.

We try to please God by being an overcomer.

We please God by
a) not trying to be an overcomer? or
b) trying to be an overcomer?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We try to please God by being an overcomer.

We please God by
a) not trying to be an overcomer? or
b) trying to be an overcomer?

Do you purposely try to misunderstand every other poster?

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by A little brother

The point is, God is the only judge to deteremine who are the overcomers.

I often heard brothers and sisters saying they want to be an overcomers as if this is the driving force on how they act. I cannot say this is totally wrong but they may be missing the target.

I strongly believe the true overcomers are those who don't care about whether they themselves would be an overcomer. They simply love and fear God, and care more about how to humbly serve Him and His people.

i absolutely agree with you. I think we Christians need to STOP putting ourselves in place of God to decide who is "in" the church and who is "not. Similarly, we need to stop taking His place to judge who is an "overcomer" and who is not. In my own opinion there are two sides, everyone who has been saved has overcome already. But we also need to partake of His victory continuously. It's like we have been saved already but still need to "work out" our salvation daily.I believe this view doesn't contradict with Lee's and Nee's however I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy.

That's how I felt too when I was in LC. I was under heavy loads of legalism I didn't know. I constantly suffer from questioning myself ,"am I 'out'? Or am I 'in'" and often times I Feel like I need to squeeze harder to be in the LC circle. My journey in LC began with growing in the Spirit into trying hard with my effort to please the LC system and people.

When we solely focus on Christ, everything will come. There will be fruit bearing. There is no trying to overcome (I'm talking about trying in terms of human effort). Of course we need to cooperate with Him (in LC language) and follow His voice, to keep in step with the Spirit , but it is a result springing from within as a result of us loving and desiring the Lord. Even Nee said so. It's an exchanged life. When we allow Christ to live in us, He will rule and reign and He will do it through us. In Nee's words, victory is obtained, not attained.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We try to please God by being an overcomer.

We please God by
a) not trying to be an overcomer? or
b) trying to be an overcomer?

I assumie you are trying to sort things out using logic.

Let me put it this way, trying to be an overcomer is more about "me", trying to please God is more about "Him".

So will you choose (a) or (b)?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I assumie you are trying to sort things out using logic.

Let me put it this way, trying to be an overcomer is more about "me", trying to please God is more about "Him".

So will you choose (a) or (b)?

It reminds me of Lee's teaching, that all we need to do is "eat the Lord" , everything else will be taken care of.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It reminds me of Lee's teaching, that all we need to do is "eat the Lord" , everything else will be taken care of.

No, this is different.

I was just saying we should set the target right. I didn't say we don't need to do anything.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you purposely try to misunderstand every other poster?

I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is hilarious given what you wrote a few posts ago and contains more "crapola" than anyone else has written. Straw-man's are part and parcel of this sort of discussion - grow up and get over it. I'm not asking for respect, I'm questioning ... .

This post was written to me awhile back on another thread. Click on the little blue arrow for more context. If you find yourself going round and round in circles with him, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

Nell

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:



This post was written to me. Follow the link for more context. If you find yourself chasing your tail, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

Nell

The link is here:

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5765

Put simply, I asked about why people were rejecting the "stock standard theological resources" I was using in that discussion to show they are not so different from Lee's interpretation of the Trinity.

Nell, replied in post #158 by saying most of my posts are crapola (his word, not mine). He seemed to misunderstand that I was not asking for respect, but wondering why not only Lee is rejected but also solid theological resources.

Strawman's on both sides are part and parcel of discussion on internet forums. It's a common debate tactic, and also used in politics, sport and many other arenas. That's being pragmatic, not disrespectful or intentional.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

No, this is different.

I was just saying we should set the target right. I didn't say we don't need to do anything.

Then your view is no doubt summarized by this absurd position you hold:

God wants us to be an overcomer but it's wrong to try to be one.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Then your view is no doubt summarized by this absurd position you hold:

God wants us to be an overcomer but it's wrong to try to be one.

Didn't I say "I cannot say this is totally wrong" back in post #32?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:



This post was written to me awhile back on another thread. Click on the little blue arrow for more context. If you find yourself going round and round in circles with him, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

Nell

Nell,

Did you see EvanJelly's latest cop-out -- "all he needs to do is eat the Lord"?

Where have we heard that before?

And to show how carefully he pays attention, Jelly calls you a "he."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell,

Did you see EvanJelly's latest cop-out -- "all he needs to do is eat the Lord"?

Where have we heard that before?

And to show how carefully he pays attention, Jelly calls you a "he."

Ohio,

I noticed. It looks to me like all that "eating" would have produced more fruit...well I guess it has, just not the kind of fruit you want.

It also seems to me that, as believers, on a Christian forum, (I've said this before) Evangelical should understand that we try to hold to a higher standard than your common Internet food-fight. "Strawman" arguments exist for one reason...OK two reasons...deceit and deflection. I believe most of the forum members post their position on a matter with honesty and integrity without subterfuge. Most believe that "strawman" arguments are not acceptable. Not to mention a waste of time and storage space on a server. The ol' "everybody does it...part and parcel" excuse is pathetic. It never worked on my parents.

Yeah...there was a point when E-man seemed to understand that I am a woman...like on the Woman of Chayil thread maybe??? Duh. As he said in his own words...he's not looking for respect...and with that attitude he's not likely to show much toward others...hence the strawman thing.

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

I noticed. It looks to me like all that "eating" would have produced more fruit...well I guess it has, just not the kind of fruit you want.

It also seems to me that, as believers, on a Christian forum, (I've said this before) Evangelical should understand that we try to hold to a higher standard than your common Internet food-fight. "Strawman" arguments exist for one reason...OK two reasons...deceit and deflection. I believe most of the forum members post their position on a matter with honesty and integrity without subterfuge. Most believe that "strawman" arguments are not acceptable. Not to mention a waste of time and storage space on a server. The ol' "everybody does it...part and parcel" excuse is pathetic. It never worked on my parents.

Yeah...there was a point when E-man seemed to understand that I am a woman...like on the Woman of Chayil thread maybe??? Duh. As he said in his own words...he's not looking for respect...and with that attitude he's not likely to show much toward others...hence the strawman thing.

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

Nell

Nell, he is not looking for respect? Says a bunch about him.

Without respect, there is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no marriage, no church, no nothing. Without respect, we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate. I've seen many on the internet, even a few here, that appeared to have no respect for others.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

He is not looking for respect?

There is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no church, no nothing, without respect. Without respect we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.

Yup, Ohio. That's what he said. I guess that explains the ad hominems and deterioration. He has tried to explain, re-word, reshape, etc., but no apology, no repentance and most of all, no change in behavior.

Catherine Marshall said: "The first thing to take place in communication is respect. Without respect, communication does not take place." I think she's right.

Nell

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is hilarious given what you wrote a few posts ago and contains more "crapola" than anyone else has written. Straw-man's are part and parcel of this sort of discussion - grow up and get over it. I'm not asking for respect, I'm questioning ... .

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Nell

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

Nell, Thanks. He is indeed quite different from the other brothers and sisters I know in the LC.

[Drake]

Fuji )"I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy"

Ok, but what are you for?

The outer darkness is....?

Drake

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by Drake

Fuji )"I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy"

Ok, but what are you for?

The outer darkness is....?

Drake

Dear Brother Drake,

Thanks for your question. I said earlier in the second post of this thread (way before it went off topic) that I don't believe there is a future millennial kingdom( I believe there are only two age, and we are waiting for the age to come, and the 1000 year now as in Rev 20 - we are experiencing now as we are kings and priests, Satan is bound because Christ is building His church now and the gate of Hades has no way to prevail it, yes he will be realease one last time yet it's said that he is immediately defeated into second death and has no victory) BUT as I said this is just my view, and who am I ? So this is NOT a dividing issue, and I don't at all like to debate. I'm for CHRIST and I may be wrong.

*BUT* even if there is a millennial kingdom coming soon, I don't believe in Lee's idea of "outer darkness", as described by Bradley and others who have posted here (which is the original topic here), I believe all who are in Christ will enter into kingdom as I believe everyone who partakes of Christ is an overcomer and no one today should be living in fear and condemnation thinking that they have not obtained victory (as I said in Nee's words, victory is not attained by us but obtained already in and through Christ).

If I remember correctly, "outer darkness" in the Bible is for "godless men" and it contrasts with the wedding feast of the Lamb. I don't know much of the nature of it (or in other's words, the nature of hell), but outer darkness signifies a separation from God, which was the first sin of Adam and Eve - wanting to live independently from God (Nee and Lee is heavy on this), in CS Lewis's words: There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened... I'm aware that Lewis believes in purgatory but that's a whole different topic. But yes, I lean closer to believing that the "outer darkness" is what some call hell because it's a separation from God. And then perhaps some will argue" but hell is the lake of fire and there is light....so it's not darkness..." but I don't believe we should take all these "literally" --- God throughout the Bible is always using various images, symbols to point to the same thing from different angles so that our finite mind can perhaps get a step closer to His infinite mind. It's like, how can He be a lamb but at the same time a lion. But paradox points us to Him!

And so it seems to me Lee's outer darkness contradicts directly to his constant emphasis of once saved always saved. At least during the past years I was in LC, this doctrine was taught all the time I think that's why in LC, with this contradiction, some like Bradley have doubts about their victory or even salvation in Christ. You may not have experienced it but it's not uncommon with former LC members or my current LC friend to suffer from this doubt. It's a heavy burden but His burden is light. He's the author and finisher of faith. My God is not a God that breeds guilt. Godly grief, yes, but not guilt. God doesn't breed a "second-class" Christian. He gives life and peace. And I believe we are all equal before the Lord in terms of standing.

Of course I can be wrong as always but like you asked what am I for? I'm for Christ and who am I? Who can give counsel to the One who knows all things? I hope all I do is to fix my eyes on Him and that I'll continue to learn from you all. I'd rather let it go than to debate. And like a little brother said earlier, I don't think it's our job to take seat of judgment to decide who is an overcomer or who is not. Thanks so much for reading.

There's also an older thread that was about this topic: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5079

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Nell, Thanks. He is indeed quite different from the other brothers and sisters I know in the LC.

You are quite different as well from other brothers and sisters I know in the LC. Most in the LC are not in the Recovery with ulterior motives, as you are. You'd be a prime candidate for the outer darkness I'm sure.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, he is not looking for respect? Says a bunch about him.

Without respect, there is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no marriage, no church, no nothing. Without respect, we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate. I've seen many on the internet, even a few here, that appeared to have no respect for others.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.

Off topic!. Moderator!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yup, Ohio. That's what he said. I guess that explains the ad hominems and deterioration. He has tried to explain, re-word, reshape, etc., but no apology, no repentance and most of all, no change in behavior.

Catherine Marshall said: "The first thing to take place in communication is respect. Without respect, communication does not take place." I think she's right.

Nell

Yes we've seen no apology or change in behavior from you either, potty mouth Nell. I know you've been stewing over the threads from months ago where I totally destroyed that poorly written Google-book with arguments from NT Greek scholars, and you just took this opportunity to let all that hatred and anger out!

[Nell]

TO Evangelical and All Forum Members:

I would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologize to Evangelical for referring to some of his posts as "crapola". I regret this and recognize that it was conduct unbecoming. I ask for your forgiveness and hope you can forgive me for this mischaracterization of some your contributions to this Forum.

Blessings to you all, and peace--

Nell

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You are quite different as well from other brothers and sisters I know in the LC. Most in the LC are not in the Recovery with ulterior motives, as you are. You'd be a prime candidate for the outer darkness I'm sure.

Evangelical, Thanks. Coming from you, it sounds almost like a blessing.

Your choice of words is quite different from the people I know in the LC. Are you truly a member of the LC?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

TO Evangelical and All Forum Members:

I would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologize to Evangelical for referring to some of his posts as "crapola". I regret this and recognize that it was conduct unbecoming. I ask for your forgiveness and hope you can forgive me for this mischaracterization of some your contributions to this Forum.

Blessings to you all, and peace--

Nell

Hi Nell and others,

I would also like to apologize for arguing and counter-arguing with you in a manner which is not appropriate for this forum. I hope you will forgive me for any distress and frustration my posts have caused. I have seriously considered my words over the past days and found them to be below standard. For that I should also thank you for pointing out the shortcomings in my approach and manner.

Sincerely,

Evangelical

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Evangelical, Thanks. Coming from you, it sounds almost like a blessing.

Your choice of words is quite different from the people I know in the LC. Are you truly a member of the LC?

Hi A little brother,

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.

I can see why someone might pretend to be part of the LC in order to sympathize and help LC members. But someone in my position on this forum who supports the "LC" when 99% of people on this forum don't, why would I pretend to be in it?

[Drake]

Fuji) "Dear Brother Drake,

Thanks for your question. I said earlier in the second post of this thread (way before it went off topic) that I don't believe there is a future millennial kingdom( I believe there are only two age, and we are waiting for the age to come, and the 1000 year now as in Rev 20 - we are experiencing now as we are kings and priests, Satan is bound because Christ is building His church now and the gate of Hades has no way to prevail it, yes he will be realease one last time yet it's said that he is immediately defeated into second death and has no victory) BUT as I said this is just my view, and who am I ? So this is NOT a dividing issue, and I don't at all like to debate. I'm for CHRIST and I may be wrong. "

HI Fuji,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply. I will address each of your points. But last things first.

This is a discussion forum not a debate forum. 95% of the content would not pass as true debate, nor would the cadence of the interaction. There are some exceptions such as the interaction between Evangelical and OBW that resemble a true debate where points are addressed, deconstructed, and then counterpoint's are made. But even those breakdown. Still, a discussion forum like this one, allows for a more fluid train of thought. So let's have a discussion and maybe a little debate. Okay?

So now, the first thing you mentioned which I find puzzling is that Satan is bound at this time. This does not appear to be based in reality or supported by scripture. When I say not based in reality I mean that we can see death, destruction, disease, and all the effects of sin and depravity of the falls. Secondly, there's no scriptural evidence that Satan is not the ruler of this world, and this world, the cosmos, is very much under his rule and reign. Even the Lord Jesus makes the distinction when he says that we are in the world but not of the world. Also, he charges us not to love the world. Clearly, the Lord is building his church in the midst of the corrupted world of Satan. And that is why the church is the called out assembly.

Could you please address those two difficulties by explaining the obvious situation of the world we live in and by providing a scriptural justification for your view that Satan is currently bound and out of commission?

Thanks,
Drake

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hi A little brother,

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.

Evangelical, what is "the Recovery," and how does one join?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, what is "the Recovery," and how does one join?

Koinonia,

Can you post your question to Evangelical into an appropriate or new thread?

I'm not objecting to sidebar conversations which are a normal part of any human discussion but your question appears like an entirely different subject.

I hope we can get the conversation on this thread focused on the Outer Darkness subject.

Thanks,
Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.

I think you know exactly what my question was and I assume your answer was yes. Let me know if I were wrong. Sorry that I sometimes had problem understanding your posts. A simple "Yes" or "No" will surely make it easier for everybody.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I can see why someone might pretend to be part of the LC in order to sympathize and help LC members. But someone in my position on this forum who supports the "LC" when 99% of people on this forum don't, why would I pretend to be in it?

Why would I know the reason that you might pretend? I explained my reason well when I asked the question on whether you are a member of the LC (Sorry, I still prefer to use this simpler form instead of the lengthy words of yours). It was that the way you behaved and the words you chose didn't seem to match the general behavioral standards of the LC people that I know.

I do not pretend to be a member of the LC. I am a member of the LC - I was baptized in the LC, I join Lord's Table meetings, I prophesy in the prophesying meetings, I join home meetings, I fellowship with LC brothers and sisters (also with others not meeting in the LC).

That doesn't mean I have to agree with all its teachings.

I do not fellowship in deceitful manner. I don't say Amen to teachings when I do not agree; I don't pray-read outlines; I don't practise "call upon the Lord's name n times"; I let others know I am studying not only LC materials but also "outside" teachings; I expressed my concerns with the "highest peak of the divine revelation";...

I am concerned that some brothers and sisters in the LC might be put to outer darkness not because they were blind, but because they say they see and consider themselves overcomers (John 9:41). And in my personal opinion, the outer darkness might not be something that ends after 1,000 years.

I don't want the LC ends up being the group of people described in Isaiah 66.

16 For with fire Jehovah will execute judgment, And with His sword, upon all flesh; And those slain by Jehovah will be many.
17 Those who sanctify and purify themselves for the gardens, Following after one in the midst, Eating swine's flesh And what is abominable and even mice, Will come to an end together, declares Jehovah.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,

Can you post your question to Evangelical into an appropriate or new thread?

I'm not objecting to sidebar conversations which are a normal part of any human discussion but your question appears like an entirely different subject.

I hope we can get the conversation on this thread focused on the Outer Darkness subject.

Thanks,
Drake

Drake, I am appropriately addressing this: Evangelical is criticizing "A little brother" for using the phrase "member of the LC," while immediately himself using the phrase "part of the Recovery."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I think you know exactly what my question was and I assume your answer was yes. Let me know if I were wrong. Sorry that I sometimes had problem understanding your posts. A simple "Yes" or "No" will surely make it easier for everybody.



Why would I know the reason that you might pretend? I explained my reason well when I asked the question on whether you are a member of the LC (Sorry, I still prefer to use this simpler form instead of the lengthy words of yours). It was that the way you behaved and the words you chose didn't seem to match the general behavioral standards of the LC people that I know.

I do not pretend to be a member of the LC. I am a member of the LC - I was baptized in the LC, I join Lord's Table meetings, I prophesy in the prophesying meetings, I join home meetings, I fellowship with LC brothers and sisters (also with others not meeting in the LC).

That doesn't mean I have to agree with all its teachings.

I do not fellowship with deceit. I don't say Amen to teachings when I do not agree; I don't pray-read outlines; I don't practise "call upon the Lord's name n times"; I let others know I am studying not only LC materials but also "outside" teachings; I expressed my concerns with the "highest peak of the divine revelation";...

I am concerned that some brothers and sisters in the LC might be put to outer darkness not because they were blind, but because they say they see and consider themselves overcomers (John 9:41). And in my personal opinion, the outer darkness might not be something that ends after 1,000 years.

I don't want the LC ends up being the group of people described in Isaiah 66.

16 For with fire Jehovah will execute judgment, And with His sword, upon all flesh; And those slain by Jehovah will be many.
17 Those who sanctify and purify themselves for the gardens, Following after one in the midst, Eating swine's flesh And what is abominable and even mice, Will come to an end together, declares Jehovah.

I am a little confused because you seem to believe the LC is a denomination and treat it as one. A local church member would not normally say "I am a member of the LC" and treat it as a denomination.

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.

You will not find Witness Lee refer to us as the "Local Churches" either.

The "Local Church", or "Local Church Movement", or LCM, is how outsiders refer to us, not insiders.

Maybe Drake can help shed light on this, but the language you use and the way you refer to the local churches is different to what I am used to. Or if that is how other members of your church refer to themselves then perhaps your local church has become like a denomination.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I am a little confused because you seem to believe the LC is a denomination and treat it as one. A local church member would not normally say "I am a member of the LC".

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.

You will not find Witness Lee refer to us as the "Local Churches" either.

The "Local Church", or "Local Church Movement", or LCM, is how outsiders refer to us, not insiders.

Let's get another opinion - Drake?

Please don't waste time on this useless argument. You know what I mean well. You don't need to speak for me. I have said it previously and I will say it again. The LC is not different from denomination.

I don't use the term "we are in the Lord's Recovery". I think this is bearing false witness.

I don't use the term "we are just the church in the locality" because other denominations are also part the church in the locaility. It is not specific to the group of people who only study Witness Lee's teachings.

Hope I have expressed my view clear enough. Please also be reminded that this thread is not about discussion of denominationalism.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

First, who is "we"?

Next--you cannot rightfully say, "we are the church in the locality." Even WL taught that all believers in a given location constitute the church in that location. Not "we."

Lastly, you are in effect a movement and denomination because--whatever you call yourselves--you are identified (by yourselves and others) as followers of Witness Lee. Otherwise, you would not exist as a "we."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

First, who is "we"?

Next--you cannot rightfully say, "we are the church in the locality." Even WL taught that all believers in a given location constitute the church in that location. Not "we."

Lastly, you are in effect a movement and denomination because--whatever you call yourselves--you are identified (by yourselves and others) as followers of Witness Lee. Otherwise, you would not exist as a "we."

That is right, all believers in the locality are the church in that location.That is why we reject denominations and do not consider ourselves to be a denomination.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is right, all believers in the locality are the church in that location.That is why we reject denominations and do not consider ourselves to be a denomination.

Did you read what I wrote?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Please don't waste time on this useless argument. You know what I mean well. You don't need to speak for me. I have said it previously and I will say it again. The LC is not different from denomination.

I don't use the term "we are in the Lord's Recovery". I think this is bearing false witness.

I don't use the term "we are just the church in the locality" because other denominations are also part the church in the locaility. It is not specific to the group of people who only study Witness Lee's teachings.

Hope I have expressed my view clear enough. Please also be reminded that this thread is not about discussion of denominationalism.

This is why I say you seem different from those in the local church that I know. A local church member would not normally say that denominations are part of the church in the locality or consider the local church to be "The Local Church" as another denomination.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Did you read what I wrote?

Yes I did, and I can say "we are the church in the locality" because that is what we are - I am in a church, in my locality, and together we are the church in the locality. We would never say "I am a member of the Local Church denomination" unless we weren't very far into the ministry.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A local church member would not normally say that denominations are part of the church in the locality...

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is right, all believers in the locality are the church in that location.That is why we reject denominations and do not consider ourselves to be a denomination.

Don't you know how confused your mind is? Or is it simply your tactic to evade the more important truth you are afraid to admit?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Don't you know how confused your mind is? Or is it simply your tactic to evade the more important truth you are afraid to admit?

Before you say I am confused...
You say you are in the local churches yet reject most of its teachings including Lees ministry. That sounds like a contradiction.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Before you say I am confused...
You say you are in the local churches yet reject most of its teachings including Lees ministry. That sounds like a contradiction.

Do you follow the teachings of men or follow God?

Are you saying we have to accept all Lee's teachings in order to be "a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality"?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Do you follow the teachings of men or follow God?

Are you saying we have to accept all Lee's teachings in order to be "a member of the Body of Christ in the local church in the locality"?

Nope.
Membership is by faith alone and we follow God.
The ministry helps us be the genuine church.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Nope.
Membership is by faith alone and we follow God.
The ministry helps us be the genuine church.

So what is your conclusion? Am I a member or not a member?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

So what is your conclusion? Am I a member or not a member?

If you are a Christian then yes you are a member of the church in the locality. But you are not a member of the Local Church denomination because our membership is only in the Body not a denomination.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If you are a Christian then yes you are a member of the church in the locality. But you are not a member of the Local Church denomination because our membership is only in the Body not a denomination.

If you see how many posts we had to go through before you received me as a member, you will find how legalistic the LC has become.

We have just wasted too much time on this and strayed from the more important concern about outer darkness.

And be careful with your answers, I almost think you have accepted there is such thing as "Local Church denomination".

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

If you see how many posts we had to go through before you received me as a member, you will find how legalistic the LC has become.

We have just wasted too much time on this and strayed from the more important concern about outer darkness.

And be careful with your answers, I almost think you have accepted there is such thing as "Local Church denomination".

This is sort of related to the topic of outer darkness because Witness Lee taught that those in the denominations go into outer darkness. It is related to the first post "Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers? " I think the topic of "how do we join the Recovery" might be a bit further away from that however.

As a believer, I would always receive you as a member of the local church and the body of Christ. But when you identified yourself as a member of a denomination, I did not receive you because I do not recognize myself as having denominational membership.

It is as though Paul after his conversion would have gone to Peter in Jerusalem and said "dear Peter, I am from the church of Paul", and Peter would have said "what is that?". Peter would probably not have received him.

Anyway that is my perspective as a member of the local church (not Local Church). If there is a local church that considers itself a Local Church Denomination then I guess that would be a denomination!

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As a believer, I would always receive you as a member of the local church and the body of Christ. But when you identified yourself as a member of a denomination, I did not receive you because I do not recognize myself as having denominational membership.

It is as though Paul after his conversion would have gone to Peter in Jerusalem and said "dear Peter, I am from the church of Paul", and Peter would have said "what is that?". Peter would probably not have received him.

Anyway that is my perspective as a member of the local church (not Local Church). If there is a local church that considers itself a Local Church Denomination then I guess that would be a denomination!

You have managed to confuse me again. Do you receive or not receive a believer who thinks he has joined a denomination? Does he have to leave the denomination in order to be received by you as a member of the local church and the body of Christ?

If Paul had gone to Lee, I guess Paul would be kicked out of the door of the local church to the outer darkness without the chance of saying a word because of his Judaism practices, e.g. He circumcised Timothy, the son of a Greek.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

You have managed to confuse me again. Do you receive or not receive a believer who thinks he has joined a denomination? Does he have to leave the denomination in order to be received by you as a member of the local church and the body of Christ?

If Paul had gone to Lee, I guess Paul would be kicked out of the door of the local church to the outer darkness without the chance of saying a word because of his Judaism practices, e.g. He circumcised Timothy, the son of a Greek.

Yet Paul resisted Titus being circumcised, that's an interesting discussion in itself.

It depends - does the believer want to fellowship on the basis of his denomination, or does he want to fellowship on the basis of being a believer.

In the early church it was important to be identified correctly because of the spies and persecution.

Am curious - does everyone in your local church believe they are a Local Church denomination?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.

And here we have the root of the problem -- the teaching of Witness Lee.

You will play your little word games forever, not because of scripture, but because of what Lee taught. It was this duplicitous double speak by LSM / DCP at afaithfulword during the GLA quarantines that served to educate many of us long time members of the true nature of the Recovery. These master wordsmiths could, in effect, spend an entire document explaining how black was really white using their twisted logic and the vast online ministry of Witness Lee.

"When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Am curious - does everyone in your local church believe they are a Local Church denomination?

Don't worry brother, I am only the odd man out. Most in the local church don't think (know?) they are in a denomination yet.

But I noticed they call less and less themselves the church in the locaility. More and more they just say the church or they are in the Lord's Recovery.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Don't worry brother, I am only the odd man out. Most in the local church don't think (know?) they are in a denomination yet.

After watching LSM over the years grow and transform itself from a minister and his printing press into this panoptic controller of all things "recovery," subjecting every member LC to its endless whims, I have concluded that that defines denominational evils more than any so-called name, pseudo-name, or non-name.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Don't worry brother, I am only the odd man out. Most in the local church don't think (know?) they are in a denomination yet.

But I noticed they call less and less themselves the church in the locaility. More and more they just say the church or they are in the Lord's Recovery.

I would not read too much into whether they add "in the locality" or not to the end. "the church" is much quicker/easier to say and it would not make much sense for us to tell each other the obvious that we are all in the same locality. It is usually only visitors who say which locality they are from.

[Sons to Glory!]

I know this is an older thread, but I see no reason to start a new one as the original subject and initial discussion about it started off good I think. (although it became something of an interesting & amusing study of going "snorkeling in the weeds" with all the sidebars and repeated calls to stay on topic, only to conclude totally off topic! Humans - we be something - gotta love us!) Maybe this time we can stay more on topic . . . mostly . . . sorta . . . kinda.

My current interest in this topic, Outer Darkness, is somewhat because of a recently written book (2015) I just purchased, "Your Eternal Reward: Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ" by Erwin Lutzer. I don't actually have the book in hand (it's being delivered tomorrow), but I have read some of it online. Has anyone else read it or heard of the author?

As others on here have testified, I used to be in general fear & trembling over the WL doctrine of spending a thousand years in outer darkness - if I left the LC. Well I did leave, but the fear has taken me awhile to recover from (yes, I get the irony in using that word). Regardless, I certainly can't ignore all the warnings in the NT about running the race well and not being disqualified (as Paul says). But I believe there is a healthy balance to be found in the word, such as He tells one of the profitable servants, "Well done, good and faithful servant! You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master!" Here's a key I think: "A FEW things." Maybe this is what it means to be an "overcomer." Not being a SuperSaint, but rather being faithful in a few . . .

Personally, I believe that once we're saved we're always saved ("saved" meaning we've received the free gift of Christ's life in us and become children of Father). However, the Bema Seat will render unto us reward or loss according to our works, according to things done while in this body of flesh (will they will be wood, hay, stubble or gold, silver, precious stones?).

I've got a lot more to say, but that's good to start things off. How about it - let's resurrect this thread on OUTER DARKNESS and see if we can stay on topic this time!

Decent article on Bema Seat at Bible.org HERE

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

As others on here have testified, I used to be in general fear & trembling over the WL doctrine of spending a thousand years in outer darkness - if I left the LC.

Psa 139:8* If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.*

[Trapped]

My response is just going to be about my personal experience in the LC on this topic.... but not so much about the accuracy thereof.

Basically:

1. Believers who are overcomers are rewarded with the millennial kingdom. Somewhere along the way I picked up the thought that this involves being friends with lions and having the ability to walk through walls. Even to travel to other planets. Funny to type that out actually.....must be things I heard as a young kid maybe? Cool if true and backed up Biblically though.
2. Believers who are not overcomers are sent to outer darkness for 1,000 years to experience discipline and learn to gain the Lord since they did not do that sufficiently on earth. The gnashing of teeth indicates the regret they feel.
3. After 1,000 years the non-overcomers will now be fully transformed and all believers will enter the New Jerusalem together.

I do not recall ever hearing in trainings and conferences the explicit thought that only those in the LC will be overcomers and those not in the LC will not be overcomers. However, it was definitely said that, essentially, your best hope to be an overcomer was to remain in the LC's (the fear-based thing that keeps you in), which is more than enough to heavily imply without stating it explicitly that if you leave the LCs you will end up in outer darkness. So I certainly see how many could get the thought that LC = kingdom, and denominations = outer darkness.

I was pretty clear, though, that you could be in the LCs and still have a straight shot to outer darkness. That would be those who backslide or are closed to the Lord or do not allow Him to break them down enough, etc. I know this for sure because that described me and I knew for years that based on that I had no hope to make it into the kingdom. In other words, those who have enough oil "make it", and those who did not give themselves to "gain the oil" do not "make it". However, for something with as gigantic consequences as 1,000 years of fun or pain, the fact that there were no parameters given for me to know whether I had enough oil at any given point or would have enough oil at the end of my life, this did inject a fair amount of stress into me. It also gave me very little incentive to "gain the oil" since there was simply no way to gauge the result of my efforts until after it was too late to adjust them! Especially if you throw in the assurance of eternal salvation, it seemed to me that once you were saved, your time on earth then just became "kingdom or outer darkness". I.e. once salvation was under your belt, the WHOLE POINT of your life then became "kingdom or outer darkness". (okay, besides preaching the gospel and bringing others into the full knowledge of the truth). For something so consequential I couldn't understand why there was not some kind of gauge on my arm that showed my current level of oil so I could gas or throttle my openness as needed!

Throw in the "lighthearted" sessions at the trainings where the co-workers would joke by saying, "If you think you are in your spirit, you probably are not! And if you don't think you are in your spirit, you probably are! So best not to think about it at all!" (obviously "in your spirit" = "gaining the oil"). What is anyone supposed to do with that circus merry-go-round of "the Lord's present speaking" rattling around between their ears? The best way for the most important determining factor in my life to be carried out is not to think about it at all? AHHHH!!!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

My response is just going to be about my personal experience in the LC on this topic.... but not so much about the accuracy thereof.

Basically:

1. Believers who are overcomers are rewarded with the millennial kingdom. Somewhere along the way I picked up the thought that this involves being friends with lions and having the ability to walk through walls. Even to travel to other planets. Funny to type that out actually.....must be things I heard as a young kid maybe? Cool if true and backed up Biblically though.
2. Believers who are not overcomers are sent to outer darkness for 1,000 years to experience discipline and learn to gain the Lord since they did not do that sufficiently on earth. The gnashing of teeth indicates the regret they feel.
3. After 1,000 years the non-overcomers will now be fully transformed and all believers will enter the New Jerusalem together.

For something so consequential I couldn't understand why there was not some kind of gauge on my arm that showed my current level of oil so I could gas or throttle my openness as needed!

That last statement was a hoot! (yeah, I'd like one of them gauge thingies . . .)

I would say your three points sums up the basic concept I got too. One of my questions now is where does the teaching for #2 specifically come from? I do believe in the millennial kingdom, but where does it say that non-overcomers are sent to outer darkness for 1000 years to ripen properly?

[Sons to Glory!]

by J. Hampton Keathley III found HERE

THREE VIEWS OF THE BEMA
For a summary of three major views, let me quote Samuel L. Hoyt from Bibliotheca Sacra.

1. Some Bible teachers view the judgment seat as a place of intense sorrow, a place of terror, and a place where Christ display all the believer’s sins (or at least those unconfessed) before the entire resurrected and raptured church. Some go even further by stating that Christians must experience some sort of suffering for their sins at the time of this examination.

2. At the other end of the spectrum another group, which holds to the same eschatological chronology, views this event as an awards ceremony. Awards are handed out to every Christian. The result of this judgment will be that each Christian will be grateful for the reward which he receives, and he will have little or no shame.

3. Other Bible teachers espouse a mediating position. They maintain the seriousness of the examination and yet emphasize the commendation aspect of the judgment seat. They emphasize the importance and necessity of faithful living today but reject any thought of forensic punishment at the Bema. Emphasis is placed on the fact that each Christian must give an account of his life before the omniscient and holy Christ. All that was done through the energy of the flesh will be regarded as worthless for reward, while all that was done in the power of the Holy Spirit will be graciously rewarded. Those who hold this view believe that the Christian will stand glorified before Christ without his old sin nature. He will, likewise, be without guilt because he has been declared righteous. There will be no need for forensic punishment, for Christ has forever borne all of God’s wrath toward the believer’s sins.

This last view I believe to be the one that is in accord with Scripture. Reasons for this will be set forth and developed as we study the nature, purpose, and basis for the Bema. But for now, lest we draw some wrong conclusions, we need to be ever mindful that God’s Word clearly teaches there are specific and very serious consequences, both temporal and eternal, for sin or disobedience. Though we will not be judged in the sense of punished for sin at the Bema since the Lord has born that for us, we must never take sin lightly because there are many consequences.

Numerals added by me.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That last statement was a hoot! (yeah, I'd like one of them gauge thingies . . .)

I would say your three points sums up the basic concept I got too. One of my questions now is where does the teaching for #2 specifically come from? I do believe in the millennial kingdom, but where does it say that non-overcomers are sent to outer darkness for 1000 years to ripen properly?

Matthew 18:34 is a starting point.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Throw in the "lighthearted" sessions at the trainings where the co-workers would joke by saying, "If you think you are in your spirit, you probably are not! And if you don't think you are in your spirit, you probably are! So best not to think about it at all!" (obviously "in your spirit" = "gaining the oil"). What is anyone supposed to do with that circus merry-go-round of "the Lord's present speaking" rattling around between their ears? The best way for the most important determining factor in my life to be carried out is not to think about it at all? AHHHH!!!

Then I must be in my spirit all of the time. haha ... I was certainly out of my mind in the LC, and for years of cognitive dissonance thereafter. I wasn't in my spirit in those days.

What irony that those that Jesus should have inoculated against the contagion of fear, are fear-mongering about outer darkness.

What's that about anyway? I think it's about contagions. As I remember it, there were always contagions of some sort in the local church. They called 'em waves.

I remember Kangas on the phone with me, trying to get me to come to Anaheim, telling me about a New Wave in Anaheim. But unbeknownst to him, he blew it. He told me that some weren't catching on to the New Wave.

In other words, some hadn't caught the contagion. Looking back I see "The Vision" as a contagion. I should know, I caught it.

But the contagion hardest to fight is fear. I thought Jesus inoculated his followers from the contagion of fear on the cross. I just don't see a lot of evidence of it in many of my Christian brothers and sisters. Many of whom are so fearful they're as skittish as a cat trapped at the dog pound.

Please local churcher's. When fear is guiding you, you can bet your spirit is not. And watch out for other contagions too.

Thanks for a great post Trapped.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Matthew 18:34 is a starting point.

Drake

The next verse is about forgiveness. No mention of a thousand years.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Matthew 18:34 is a starting point.

Yes. Forgive. Or get tortured.

For that reason a long time ago I forgave Witness Lee. And ever since I keep finding more to forgive him for.

Unforgiveness is torture for the unforgiving. It must be thorough.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The next verse is about forgiveness. No mention of a thousand years.

Yep. What does v34 say will happen to those who do not forgive?

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Yep. What does v34 say will happen to those who do not forgive?

Drake

understood but nothing specifically about a thousand years

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. Forgive. Or get tortured.

For that reason a long time ago I forgave Witness Lee. And ever since I keep finding more to forgive him for.

Unforgiveness is torture for the unforgiving. It must be thorough.

If you have any more to say about this topic I am all ears. I have a hard time forgiving people, or if I manage to, it is hard for it to last or be "ongoing forgiveness". I know, "Christ is our forgiveness" but some of us have a harder time of it than others. Any more experience or advice would be much appreciated.

Unforgiveness truly is torture for the unforgiving!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

If you have any more to say about this topic I am all ears.

I was merely responding to Drake's Matt. 18:34 statement, which is about forgiveness, and not outer darkness.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

I was merely responding to Drake's Matt. 18:34 statement, which is about forgiveness, and not outer darkness.

What jail do the jailers manage? And under what terms do those put into it, get out? .

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

understood but nothing specifically about a thousand years

Right... yet, what is the jail?

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

What jail do the jailers manage? And under what terms do those put into it, get out? .

Drake

What if it isn't translated as "jailer"?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What if it isn't translated as "jailer"?

Feel free to provide an alternate POV.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

What jail do the jailers manage? And under what terms do those put into it, get out? .

According to the story, they get out when they pay their debt. The Greek word is torturers. Are there torturers in outer darkness?

It's a parable. That we are not "given to know," according to Matt 13:11. But it's obvious that Jesus is speaking in imagery.

The lord had compassion/pity, the servant didn't. The servant cast his fellowservant into prison. But for not paying it forward, the lord cast the servant to the torturers. If it means outer darkness are there torturers there?

Speaking of outer darkness. What is the outer darkness? Is it an actual physical place? The actors in the parable are are physical people.

If it's physical, can we earn wages in outer darkness? And what is it made of? Where is it? Is it worse than this place? Do we still work for food? build houses? invent the use of electricity, and light bulbs? Or is there none of those. We just sit, day and night, in outer darkness, forever weeping and gnashing? If we weep, we must be breathing.

But like Jesus told his disciples, it's not given for us to know.

Regardless of all that, I don't think this parable is about outer darkness. But Matthew is the right place to go to for outer darkness. In all the New Testament only Matthew mentions it. And only three times. Three times in the whole new testament? Paul doesn't mention it. And even the Apocalypse of John don't mention it. What a nebulous place is this outer darkness. Sounds scary tho ... or at least very lonely, and boring. Prolly no internet.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

I was merely responding to Drake's Matt. 18:34 statement, which is about forgiveness, and not outer darkness.

I did see what you were responding to. I was just struck about your comment that you forgave Witness Lee, and your other statement that "unforgiveness is torture for the unforgiving". In human life this is true! Basically I was asking you to go off the "Outer Darkness" topic just for one post and talk a little more about how you came to forgive Witness Lee. Not because it's Witness Lee, but because you forgave someone. I have a hard time forgiving people myself, so am always looking for others' experience or advice in how to do so. If you don't want to say anything further though, no problem!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I did see what you were responding to. I was just struck about your comment that you forgave Witness Lee, and your other statement that "unforgiveness is torture for the unforgiving". In human life this is true! Basically I was asking you to go off the "Outer Darkness" topic just for one post and talk a little more about how you came to forgive Witness Lee. Not because it's Witness Lee, but because you forgave someone. I have a hard time forgiving people myself, so am always looking for others' experience or advice in how to do so. If you don't want to say anything further though, no problem!

Trapped,

"Unforgiveness...how do you do it?" is a great topic which I don't believe has been discussed here. Maybe you would like to start a new thread?

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

It's a parable. That we are not "given to know," according to Matt 13:11. But it's obvious that Jesus is speaking in imagery. .

Awareness,

Matt 13:11 is not about the Lords followers who have the Spirit of God to guide them into all truth (John 16:13). No Christian should fit the description of v 11, 13-15.... but maybe you are right....perhaps some do.

At the end of the chapter you quoted He explains and applies the imagery to one of the parables He just told...so now we know too about the meaning of that parable specifically and the nature of parables and their interpretation generally. Furthermore, we have the Spirit now to guide us and we have the completed Bible. So we have to do due diligence to cut straight the word of God and allow the Lord to shine in us and guide us. We want to be those who have eyes to see and ears to hear... that of course includes the parables and their interpretation (v16).

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Matt 13:11 is not about the Lords followers who have the Spirit of God to guide them into all truth (John 16:13). No Christian should fit the description of v 11, 13-15.... but maybe you are right....perhaps some do.

Drake

Since I am more familiar with Christians in the LC's, I would say that many of them "fit the description" which Jesus spoke of here in Matthew 13.11-15.

The primary reason is pride. Sadly, the ministry of Witness Lee was a ministry of condemnation (regularly condemning all Christians outside the LCM) which filled his listeners with the arrogant pride of elitism (teaching they are the Lord's best) and exclusivism (teaching no one else has what they have.)

Those in the LCM are like those stuck in Judaism during Jesus' day -- they listen to their leaders' interpretation of God's word rather than directly listening what God is speaking in His word.

[Sons to Glory!]

So where can we look to see the Unfaithful spending a thousand years in outer Darkness?

EDIT UPDATE: My point in asking this is that I heard the "punishment for non-transformed believers is a thousand years in outer darkness to ripened" many times. Where did this come from?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So where can we look to see the Unfaithful spending a thousand years in outer Darkness?

EDIT UPDATE: My point in asking this is that I heard the "punishment for non-transformed believers is a thousand years in outer darkness to ripened" many times. Where did this come from?

StG,

It comes from the correlation between parables, such as those we are discussing, and events that we know will occur, such as the judgement seat of Christ, His second coming, His righteous nature to reward and punish, the millennial reign of Christ.....in short, the mysteries of the kingdom.

Have been trying to answer your question, see #99, but you seem to be missing the purpose of the Lords use of parables as described above.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

It comes from the correlation between parables, such as those we are discussing, and events that we know will occur, such as the judgement seat of Christ, His second coming, His righteous nature to reward and punish, the millennial reign of Christ.....in short, the mysteries of the kingdom.

Have been trying to answer your question, see #99, but you seem to be missing the purpose of the Lords use of parables as described above.

Drake

Thanks. Yes, I saw that and the follow-on discussion. My question has to do with the time: Why is it the full thousand years, or is it a portion of time - 5 minutes or 500 years? Where specifically do we get the time factor and the teaching I heard much about, that it is 1,000 years?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. Yes, I saw that and the follow-on discussion. My question has to do with the time: Why is it the full thousand years, or is it a portion of time - 5 minutes or 500 years? Where specifically do we get the time factor and the teaching I heard much about, that it is 1,000 years?

Right Sons. The 3 references to outer darkness doesn't specify the sentence. It may only be like a little timeout, to think about what you've done. Surely you're not in there long enough to gnash your teeth completely away.

It's imagery & allegory. The outer darkness is not a real physical place.

But it's a great tool for cults to use for fear-mongering.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. Yes, I saw that and the follow-on discussion. My question has to do with the time: Why is it the full thousand years, or is it a portion of time - 5 minutes or 500 years? Where specifically do we get the time factor and the teaching I heard much about, that it is 1,000 years?

Well StG, the 1000 years is in reference to the Millennial reign of Christ... that age is also known as the kingdom age... it commences with the Lord's second coming and it ends at the commencement of eternity future. As the kingdom age is all about ruling and reigning with Christ on earth and not just about being forgiven and saved from eternal perdition in eternity future then the criterion for entering the kingdom is a higher standard. For example, the parable we were discussing specifically mentions a penalty in "jail" for refusing to forgive. The Lord forgave you as a debtor yet you refuse to forgive other debtors... into the "jail" you rascal!

Some parables appear to indicate that the time out in outer darkness is variable.... that is what we were discussing ..... in reference to the "jail"... where and when is it and what is required to come out of it.

The gospel of the kingdom reconciles the matter of faith, works, reward, eternal salvation. etc. All born-again Christians are saved eternally but not all are counted worthy to rule and reign with Christ during the 1000 year reign on earth... yet at least no later than the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ all will be pure, refined, and part of the New Jerusalem.. every last farthing will have been paid to reference another parable. Some will be counted worthy to rule and reign with Christ for the entire 1000 years as the reward to the overcomer in Revelation 2:26-28 states plainly. No parable there just plain talk.

Some Christians I grew up with lived like the devil.. yet they held that they were eternally saved and that there were no further consequences. Yet other Christians I met with believed that you might be saved in the morning but by evening you could have fallen out of grace because you drank, cussed, or committed some other sin. Both points of view lack the complete revelation of scripture... We are eternally saved by God's grace through the blood of Christ....but there are consequences for our behavior after becoming a christian. We do not lose our eternal salvation but we may lose the reward of the kingdom. It is the most balanced and scriptural point of view that brings all those parts together. I've yet to hear an alternative point of view that reconciles all of scripture related to that ... especially from those who argue against it. Having no explanation of their own they simply remain in unbelief apparently willing to jettison those scriptures that they cannot or refuse to understand. Its also probably fair to say that some that discard the kingdom teachings may have a problem they cannot shake... so as a christian they cannot live in contradiction to scripture ....therefore they convince themselves to dismiss it.. or bury it.... like the parable about forgiveness.

Drake

What about the "raptured or martyred" talk we used to hear?

And where does that leave Witness Lee for 1,000 years?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Right Sons. The 3 references to outer darkness doesn't specify the sentence. It may only be like a little timeout, to think about what you've done. Surely you're not in there long enough to gnash your teeth completely away.

It's imagery & allegory. The outer darkness is not a real physical place

A parable shares a law, reality, or a truth with something else... in this case a matter in the spiritual realm.... don't say outer darkness is not a real physical place or that the suffering is not to such a degree that you will gnash your teeth.

Seems to me brother awareness that you may be guilty of dumbing down the scriptures.. parables are depictions of something very real. Excuse me if I am misreading your characterization of those matters. They are to be taken very seriously.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

A parable shares a law, reality, or a truth with something else... in this case a matter in the spiritual realm.... don't say outer darkness is not a real physical place or that the suffering is not to such a degree that you will gnash your teeth.

Seems to me brother awareness that you may be guilty of dumbing down the scriptures.. parables are depictions of something very real. Excuse me if I am misreading your characterization of those matters. They are to be taken very seriously.

Drake

Neither of us knows brother Drake.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Neither of us knows brother Drake.

What we know brother awareness is that there is substance behind the parables as the one you cited in Matthew 13 clearly states. That parable and its explanation show that the parable represents the responses to receiving the word of the kingdom....and having it snatched away by the enemy, or withered because of persecution or tribulation, or choked by the deceitfulness of riches .. or better those that receive it and understand it produce thirty, sixty, hundredfold....that my brother is a serious and wonderful, (or not), matter.

The parables are provided for His followers to receive and understand. It really is not our place to dismiss the parables.... we have to seek the Lord for their meaning in the context of the entire completed Bible and according to the indwelling Spirit that guides us faithfully. The parable you brought up in Matthew 13 is precisely about our conversation right now..... receiving the word of the kingdom and producing manifold fruit.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So where can we look to see the Unfaithful spending a thousand years in outer Darkness?

EDIT UPDATE: My point in asking this is that I heard the "punishment for non-transformed believers is a thousand years in outer darkness to ripened" many times. Where did this come from?

Does this answer your question? The verses below in conjunction with Rev 20. Maybe I'm missing more, I'm sure someone on this forum knows. Lee's words below:

"At harvest time in a field there are surely the firstfruits, the harvest, and the remainder or the gleanings. The rapture of a small number of mature saints will occur before the tribulation. The majority will be raptured during the tribulation because they need the tribulation to cause them to mature. Finally, the last of the crop will be harvested after the tribulation. The harvest of the crop is not in chapters 7 or 8 of Revelation but in chapter 14. This means that it occurs in the midst of the tribulation."

"According to all these verses, we can see that the rapture of the believers will not be accomplished all at one time but rather during a period of about seven years. When will you be raptured during that seven-year period? It depends on the degree of your maturity. If in the Lord’s eyes you are mature and ripe, surely He will take you away before the tribulation begins. This is the way the Lord will use to transfer the reality of the kingdom into the manifestation of the kingdom. In other words, we all must be matured. If we desire to be matured, we must take Christ in again and again, eating of Him, and allowing Him to saturate us all the time. This is the kingdom life that is described and defined in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, a life that is always taking Christ as its nourishment. It is always being saturated, occupied, and possessed by Christ. This is the reality of the kingdom. This is real maturity. If this is our case, when the Lord Jesus comes back, we will be taken as the firstfruits. This means that we will be chosen and selected by Him to be in His army (Rev. 17:14; 19:11-15). The fighting army of the Lord Jesus is composed of the overcoming saints who are living in the reality of the kingdom. They are living in the reality of the kingdom; they will become the fighting army, and after the fighting, they will be the manifestation of the kingdom. As His army they will come with the Lord Jesus to destroy the Antichrist and his army. Then the nations of the earth will become the kingdom of Christ, and the army composed of all the overcoming saints will become co-kings with Him to rule over the earth. They will be transferred into the manifestation of the kingdom during the millennium."

"What then will happen to all the defeated Christians? They will have no share in reigning as co-kings with Christ during the millennium. Where shall they be? While we do not know the details, the principle is clear. When the Lord Jesus returns, the false believers will be bound into bundles and cast into the fire, terminating all the tares in Christianity. The overcoming ones will be chosen to fight the battle with the Lord to recover the earth for the Lord’s reigning. They will be the co-kings with Christ in the manifestation of the kingdom. The defeated Christians will be neither burned up nor enter into the kingdom to reign with Christ. According to Matthew 22:13 and 25:30, these will be cast into the outer darkness where there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

In summary, today’s Christendom is composed of both false Christians and real Christians. The false Christians are the outward appearance of the kingdom. Among the real Christians, a few are the overcoming ones, and most are the defeated ones. When the Lord Jesus returns, He will first terminate the false Christians, burning up all the false Christians, the tares. Then He will take up all the real ones into the air according to their maturity. At His judgment seat in the air, He will exercise His judgment over all the real Christians to decide who will be selected and chosen. Those will be the overcomers who will return to the earth and fight against the rebellious army of Antichrist. After defeating Antichrist and his army, the overcomers will be Christ’s co-kings, reigning with Him in His kingdom on the earth. That will be the manifestation of the kingdom. That also will be the transfer of the reality of the kingdom into the manifestation of the kingdom. Only the overcomers, those who are living in the reality of the kingdom of the heavens today, will have a share in its manifestation. The manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens will be a reward or prize given to the overcomers."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Does this answer your question? The verses below in conjunction with Rev 20. Maybe I'm missing more, I'm sure someone on this forum knows. Lee's words below:

Thanks, but I think I already know Lee's teaching on this pretty well. It's just that I like going back to the word with these concepts to see if there really is a firm and accurate grounding, or whether it was just someone's interpretation.

These days I'd truly rather have just two words of revelation directly from the Lord and His word, than 20 volumes of someone else's thinking on a subject!

Don't get me wrong, I don't just immediately dismiss WL's teaching, and will refer to them from time to time, but I endeavor to get rid of any dirty bathwater (and save the baby). So please share verses, and not WL quotes.

[Evangelical]

"Kingdom exclusion" doctrine teaches that unfaithful believers will not participate in the kingdom but be restored at a later time. There are quite a few preachers who teach kingdom exclusion in one form or another, if you look for it.

Why 1000 years? Since the kingdom reign of Christ lasts for 1000 years on earth, it is logical that exclusion from the kingdom will last for the same time period - 1000 years.

There are some questions that remain:

(1) Do unfaithful believers get excluded from the kingdom, or not?
If yes, is it temporary or permanent? If permanent, then this is equivalent to believers losing their salvation, and casts doubt on the doctrine of eternal security. If temporary, then it must be for a certain time period, and 1000 years seems as good a guess as any.

(2) If no, then unfaithful believers enjoy the kingdom with the faithful?

This seems unlikely, given that the kingdom is a reward, and Jesus described unfaithful believers as not receiving a reward, but punishment.


There are two many sources of confusion in Christianity today about these topics :

a) Understanding what is the kingdom? Many believers interpret the kingdom as equal to heaven, and equate this topic with eternal salvation or damnation, and forget about Jesus's kingdom reign on Earth.

b) Understanding eternal security - many believers cannot distinguish between temporal punishment or loss, and eternal loss. This is partly coupled with a misunderstanding that believers remain disembodied spirits within heaven for eternity.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"Kingdom exclusion" doctrine teaches that unfaithful believers will not participate in the kingdom but be restored at a later time. There are quite a few preachers who teach kingdom exclusion in one form or another, if you look for it.

Why 1000 years? Since the kingdom reign of Christ lasts for 1000 years on earth, it is logical that exclusion from the kingdom will last for the same time period - 1000 years.

Is it in fact binary, that is, either all or nothing? Rather than telling us it sounds "logical that exclusion from the kingdom will last for . . . 1000 years," please tell us supporting scripture for that all-or-nothing concept.

I mean, much of this whole thing (i.e., Christian theology) doesn't sound logical - the Christian life itself is flat out impossible from man's perspective!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Is it in fact binary, that is, either all or nothing? Rather than telling us it sounds "logical that exclusion from the kingdom will last for . . . 1000 years," please tell us supporting scripture for that all-or-nothing concept.

I mean, much of this whole thing (i.e., Christian theology) doesn't sound logical - the Christian life itself is flat out impossible from man's perspective!

I find it interesting that Exclusives have capitalized on their exclusion theology for centuries, with each establishing the standards by which all others fail.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Is it in fact binary, that is, either all or nothing? Rather than telling us it sounds "logical that exclusion from the kingdom will last for . . . 1000 years," please tell us supporting scripture for that all-or-nothing concept.

I mean, much of this whole thing (i.e., Christian theology) doesn't sound logical - the Christian life itself is flat out impossible from man's perspective!

Yes, it's a binary question so has a binary answer - there is no other possibilities. That is, it is not possibly to be half in the kingdom and half outside of it. It is not possible to be half saved. It is not possible to be half excluded from the kingdom.

Scripture supporting a logical approach can be found here:

1 Cor 14:33 - God is a God of order and therefore logic.

Romans 1:20 - God is seen in the logic of the universe - the laws of mathematics and physics.

There is a heaven, there is an earth. It is possible for a believer to be only in one place at a time.

So this reduces to four possibilities:

1) Yes to heaven, no to the kingdom
2) Yes to heaven, yes to the kingdom
3) No to heaven, no to the kingdom
4) No to heaven, yes to the kingdom

To pick any of these 4 possibilities at random gives us a 25% chance of being correct. To better our odds, all we need to do is count the number of scriptures which support each of the 4 possibilities. The one with the most scriptures is the most likely correct.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"Kingdom exclusion" doctrine teaches that unfaithful believers will not participate in the kingdom but be restored at a later time. There are quite a few preachers who teach kingdom exclusion in one form or another, if you look for it.

From your understanding, what would happen to the dead unfaithful believers? When will they resurrect according to the bible?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

From your understanding, what would happen to the dead unfaithful believers? When will they resurrect according to the bible?

Everyone resurrects according to Acts 24:15

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Everyone resurrects according to Acts 24:15

But my question is when. Is this mentioned in the bible?

From Rev 20, only the overcomers (first resurrection) and the "rest" (after 1,000 years) were mentioned.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

[Evangelical]

1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16 indicate that all believers in Christ will rise when Christ returns. Which would contradict Rev 20:4-6 if understood to mean that only the overcomers are resurrected in the first resurrection.

My understanding is that when Christ returns, all believers receive immortal bodies which are capable of existing for 1000 years.

Rev 20 that you quoted refers to the portion of these resurrected believers, the overcomers, who enjoy the reward of the kingdom.

[awareness]

Do those in outer darkness avoid the resurrection (either one), or are some of the resurrected thrown into outer darkness? Or ... are we thrown into outer darkness when we die, and resurrection frees us?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yes, it's a binary question so has a binary answer - there is no other possibilities.

Brother, other than the two verses you site, this is largely your opinion (or someone else's). Of course I don't disagree that God Himself is logical according to His own logic (and not man's)

So the original question stands - Where in scripture does it say the "cast into outer darkness" ones spends a full 1000 years there, and not some portion thereof?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Brother, other than the two verses you site, this is largely your opinion (or someone else's). Of course I don't disagree that God Himself is logical according to His own logic (and not man's).

So the original question stands - Where in scripture does it say the "cast into outer darkness" ones spends a full 1000 years there, and not some portion thereof?

StG,

You may be thinking about these verses:

Matthew 5:25-26: "Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.²⁶ Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."

This may allow for some variation of the final farthing (one cent) payment according to the amount owed. God is righteous and the rewards and punishments He issues are variable. Perhaps that applies to the time in "prison".

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

You may be thinking about these verses:

Matthew 5:25-26: "Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.²⁶ Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."

This may allow for some variation of the final farthing (one cent) payment according to the amount owed. God is righteous and the rewards and punishments He issues are variable. Perhaps that applies to the time in "prison".

Drake

That's a stretch. It does not answer Sons' question? What about, 'there is no verse that supports 1000 yrs in outer darkness?' If that's the case? and prolly is.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

You may be thinking about these verses:

Matthew 5:25-26: "Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.²⁶ Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."

This may allow for some variation of the final farthing (one cent) payment according to the amount owed. God is righteous and the rewards and punishments He issues are variable. Perhaps that applies to the time in "prison".

Drake

That's actually not a bad passage to support the contention of time in outer darkness! As you said, it also allows for some variability with the length of time (not just 1000 years).

So someone builds with all six things in 1st Corinthians 3 (wood, hay, stubble, gold, silver, precious stone), as I suspect will be the case with most all of us. The building work is tested by fire. I suspect most all of us will suffer some loss with burnable things we've built with. Is there some percentage point of works that are burned (compared to the total) when we then wind-up going into the outer darkness, like 25%, 50%, 75% or what?

He does tell the two faithful servants in Matthew 25 that they were "faithful in a few things, enter into the joy of Your Lord."

My point is we often think we have to be "Faith SuperSaints" in order to get the reward and not go to outer darkness. (Accordingly, what about Sampson who messed up a lot, yet ended his life well and got mentioned in the Hebrews 11 faithful list?)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That's actually not a bad passage to support the contention of time in outer darkness! As you said, it also allows for some variability with the length of time (not just 1000 years).

If you find yourself in outer darkness keep your chin up. At least it's not in the fiery hell.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That's actually not a bad passage to support the contention of time in outer darkness! As you said, it also allows for some variability with the length of time (not just 1000 years).

So someone builds with all six things in 1st Corinthians 3 (wood, hay, stubble, gold, silver, precious stone), as I suspect will be the case with most all of us. The building work is tested by fire. I suspect most all of us will suffer some loss with burnable things we've built with. Is there some percentage point of works that are burned (compared to the total) when we then wind-up going into the outer darkness, like 25%, 50%, 75% or what?

He does tell the two faithful servants in Matthew 25 that they were "faithful in a few things, enter into the joy of Your Lord."

My point is we often think we have to be "Faith SuperSaints" in order to get the reward and not go to outer darkness. (Accordingly, what about Sampson who messed up a lot, yet ended his life well and got mentioned in the Hebrews 11 faithful list?)

StG,

Your POV is not far from mine on this topic.

However, the bar was high in some situations... to those in Smyrna the criterion for an overcomer was:

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Though becoming an overcomer may not mean we are tested unto death... yet, we have to overcome the situation we are presented with. Peter was eventually crucified but John died isolated on Patmos at ripe old age. Perhaps others lived a full life and died in old age. Some were martyred young like Blandina of Lyons. They had their own situations to overcome.

Yet, for whatever situation we are in He is faithful to provide grace to overcome. He also will fairly and righteously judge our response to His grace given. He told Paul "My grace is sufficient". He does not wink at a slothful servant.... we know He is strict with His own but He is also generous to those that are faithful with what they are given. I believe the time out in outer darkness is measured because He is measured in His judgments. What is the payment of the 'last farthing"? He knows us and we can trust His judgment. We have faith in His righteousness. He is also severe to His enemies, will slay them, give them to destruction, and many will perish in unbelief.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

If you find yourself in outer darkness keep your chin up. At least it's not in the fiery hell.

This is true. If you find yourself at the judgement seat of Christ having a conversation about what you did after becoming a christain, you have cleared the first hurdle.... eternal life and not eternal perdition in the lake of fire. We received the eternal indestructible life of God at the moment we believed.

Now, what happens next is entirely based on what happened after you believed... the parables regarding the kingdom, some we have been discussing, are instructive.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I find it interesting that Exclusives have capitalized on their exclusion theology for centuries, with each establishing the standards by which all others fail.

By his own criteria Witness Lee was a defeated believer. He told us the two conditions to make it were either to be raptured or martyred. He said that he believed Watchman Nee was surely martyred, dying in a jail. But he gave himself no such out.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

By his own criteria Witness Lee was a defeated believer. He told us the two conditions to make it were either to be raptured or martyred. He said that he believed Watchman Nee was surely martyred, dying in a jail. But he gave himself no such out.

Nnnnnn... no.

By make it, I assume you mean as an overcomer....

Yet, he did not teach that ONLY by rapture or martyrdom does one become an overcomer. First, all christians will be raptured to face the BEMA.. only then is their worthiness to participate as co-ruler with Christ decided.

He did say that if you were a Firstfruit then you were an overcomer.. a clear reference to the reward of the overcomers in Revelation 3:10.

Second, he said on more than one occasion that martyrdom was a sure thing because that one "loved not their life unto death" a clear reference to the spiritual battle waged in Revelation 12:11 and those that overcame the devil and his assaults.

But I agree that he never discussed himself as an overcomer.... that is the Lord's decision.. not yours and not mine.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nnnnnn... no.

By make it, I assume you mean as an overcomer....

Yet, he did not teach that ONLY by rapture or martyrdom does one become an overcomer. First, all christians will be raptured to face the BEMA.. only then is their worthiness to participate as co-ruler with Christ decided.

He did say that if you were a Firstfruit then you were an overcomer.. a clear reference to the reward of the overcomers in Revelation 3:10.

Second, he said on more than one occasion that martyrdom was a sure thing because that one "loved not their life unto death" a clear reference to the spiritual battle waged in Revelation 12:11 and those that overcame the devil and his assaults.

But I agree that he never discussed himself as an overcomer.... that is the Lord's decision.. not yours and not mine.

Drake

He taught that only by rapture or martyrdom could one participate in the Millennial Kingdom. The rest had to wait 1000 years, per Revelation 20:5. Like Darby before him, he thought he'd get raptured.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Brother, other than the two verses you site, this is largely your opinion (or someone else's). Of course I don't disagree that God Himself is logical according to His own logic (and not man's)

So the original question stands - Where in scripture does it say the "cast into outer darkness" ones spends a full 1000 years there, and not some portion thereof?

It is based on logic which is both God's and man's and that God is fair and a God of order. It is not fair to reward faithful with 1000 years and unfaithful less than or more than 1000 years. Just as it is not fair to reward believers with eternal life but temporal death for unbelievers.

God gives eternal life and eternal death. Logically the time period for rewards should match the time period for punishment. An eternal reward is matched by eternal punishment. A 1000 year reward is matched by a 1000 year punishment. You can see how 1000 years is the most logical number we could think of.

Thinking about the implications of a belief that it is not 1000 years. The idea that it is not a full 1000 years would mean that at some time during the 1000 year reign of Christ, these believers are accepted into the kingdom. More than 1000 years would mean they miss out on other things they are supposed to have.

To be fair to all, this would mean that Christ would have to give unbelievers an opportunity to repent and become saved after the age of grace has ended.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

You may be thinking about these verses:

Matthew 5:25-26: "Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.²⁶ Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."

This may allow for some variation of the final farthing (one cent) payment according to the amount owed. God is righteous and the rewards and punishments He issues are variable. Perhaps that applies to the time in "prison".

Drake

I see that maybe relating to the quality of punishment not the quantity. The quantity is fixed, the quality varies depending. Luke 12:47-48 shows a different number of lashes.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

But I agree that he never discussed himself as an overcomer.... that is the Lord's decision.. not yours and not mine.

Opening Post:

Originally Posted by Bradley

So having only just recently come to grips with the fact that the ministry isn't what I thought it was and the churches are not God's unique flow on the earth, I'm confused as to what I should believe.

Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers?

This was one of my fears about leaving the church for a long time. It'd be nice to get clear on this matter.

Well he may have not discussed himself as an overcomer (that actually went without saying)...but Witness Lee was not shy about telling impressionable young people and gullible older ones how to be an overcomer - It was to be a faithful and devout member of the Local Church - HIS CHURCH - The Local Church of Witness Lee. Those poor souls in "poor, poor Christianity" were surely going to be the ones in outer darkness. Why? Why it was for the unforgivable sin of not following the person and work of Witness Lee. Haven't ever heard of the man? Oh well, sucks to be you! And God help those Christian apologists who were exposing the false teachings and aberrational practices...They were going straight to outer darkness...do not pass go, do not collect $200...It's extra weeping and extra gnashing of teeth for you guys! See ya in 1,000 years, you opposers and destroyers of God's building!

Of course our friend Drake is going to say "I never heard such things!" and "I don't recognize that Local Church!" Good for you my man. Glad you lived such a "sheltered church life". But many of us were not so lucky. Hundreds upon hundreds, probably thousands upon thousands, were not so lucky. Message after message, conference after conference, training after training, year after year, it was pounded and ingrained into the hearts and minds of the faithful - Go to meetings, EVERY meeting! Go to the conferences and trainings, EVERY conference and EVERY Training! Memorize the outlines! Buy those life studies! Pray read! Call on the Lord! And most important....believe with all your heart, and all your soul and all your mind that Witness Lee is the One Minister with The One Ministry for The age. Did all that? Good. At least you have a shot at being an overcomer.
-

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16 indicate that all believers in Christ will rise when Christ returns. Which would contradict Rev 20:4-6 if understood to mean that only the overcomers are resurrected in the first resurrection.

My understanding is that when Christ returns, all believers receive immortal bodies which are capable of existing for 1000 years.

Rev 20 that you quoted refers to the portion of these resurrected believers, the overcomers, who enjoy the reward of the kingdom.

I see agreement rather than contradiction in those verses. Paul could have been referring only to those who join Christ's reign for 1000 years.

1 Thes 4:16 talks about the "dead in Christ". Firstly, I doubt whether we can say the "unfaithful believers" died in Christ. I think many of them die in the world instead. Then,

1 Thes 4:17 Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord.

So those who resurrected and meet the Lord in the air will not be separated from the Lord anymore, no casting out.

For 1 Cor 15, if you continue to read until 15:58...

1 Cor 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

If the "we" and "all" in 15:51 means two groups of people ("overcomers" and "unfaithful believers"), it doesn't quite make sense Paul concluded with 15:58 asking the brothers to be steadfast becaue it would make no difference.

Rev 20 shows clearly there are only two resurrections - those who resurrect to reign with Christ for 1,000 years and "the rest" after 1,000 years.

So I believe there is no such thing as 1000 years of punishment or chastening in outer darkness for unfaithful believers.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I see that maybe relating to the quality of punishment not the quantity. The quantity is fixed, the quality varies depending. Luke 12:47-48 shows a different number of lashes.

So are you saying time or severity are variable?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So are you saying time or severity are variable?

time fixed severity variable.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

So I believe there is no such thing as 1000 years of punishment or chastening in outer darkness for unfaithful believers.

The unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 is cast into outer darkness - how long will this be?

"And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 25:30

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 is cast into outer darkness - how long will this be?

Continuing in Matthew 25 Jesus speaks to the final judgement and puts folks in two categories. Is this before or after he sends believers to face the temporary and variable condemnation of the “outer darkness”?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Continuing in Matthew 25 Jesus speaks to the final judgement and puts folks in two categories. Is this before or after he sends believers to face the temporary and variable condemnation of the “outer darkness”?

Now you would have to go and ask that!

As an older brother I know likes to say, "Good luck trying to get all those squirrels up the same tree!"

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Now you would have to go and ask that!

As an older brother I know likes to say, "Good luck trying to get all those squirrels up the same tree!"

I’m not sure if others have read this, but this article shares a POV that differs from Lee’s.

https://bible.org/article/“outer-dar...suburb-or-hell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

He taught that only by rapture or martyrdom could one participate in the Millennial Kingdom. The rest had to wait 1000 years, per Revelation 20:5. Like Darby before him, he thought he'd get raptured.

Nnnnn..,,, still no,

Of course one cannot participate as a co-ruler unless they be raptured,,, every born again believer is raptured. But being raptured does not guarantee that one will rule and reign with Christ. The criterion to be raptured is being regenerated... to be one who rules and reigns requires something more than just regeneration. iIf he said something else then you can clear it up by providing the reference.

Perhaps our misunderstanding is terms. Please reread #116 and then advise if that is what you meant... that is what I mean.

Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 is cast into outer darkness - how long will this be?

How would I know? The bible didn't say explicitly.

But in my personal opinion, it would be forever. Matt 25 is different from Matt 5 or 18 where the people are sent to prison until the debt is repaid. Those people are under the custody of the jailer. I see those imprisonments in Matt 5 and 18 as God's disciplinary action in present life.

The servant in Matt 25 was not only unfaithful, he was worthless to his master. God's people are His treasure and this worthless servant is probably not one of them. If we interpret darkness as without God's presence, how can that worthless servant become more worthy without God's help there in the outer darkness? That's why I think he probably will stay there forever.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Opening Post:

Well he may have not discussed himself as an overcomer (that actually went without saying)...but Witness Lee was not shy about telling impressionable young people and gullible older ones how to be an overcomer - It was to be a faithful and devout member of the Local Church - HIS CHURCH - The Local Church of Witness Lee. Those poor souls in "poor, poor Christianity" were surely going to be the ones in outer darkness. Why? Why it was for the unforgivable sin of not following the person and work of Witness Lee. Haven't ever heard of the man? Oh well, sucks to be you! And God help those Christian apologists who were exposing the false teachings and aberrational practices...They were going straight to outer darkness...do not pass go, do not collect $200...It's extra weeping and extra gnashing of teeth for you guys! See ya in 1,000 years, you opposers and destroyers of God's building!

Of course our friend Drake is going to say "I never heard such things!" and "I don't recognize that Local Church!" Good for you my man. Glad you lived such a "sheltered church life". But many of us were not so lucky. Hundreds upon hundreds, probably thousands upon thousands, were not so lucky.
-

That is all very interesting UntoHim but it is not even rational and it is inaccurate.

However, I won’t refute the dreadful account of your experience in the local churches. Not mine but yours. I did attend almost every training and conference for twenty years, bought the books, etc. called on the Lord and absolutely fell in love with Jesus to a depth I never experienced before. My love for the Lord has only grown over these past 40 years. I can only hope that in the path you have chosen that you also have found the peace that passes understanding and your love too is ever increasing.

Now the inaccurate part of your note is that Witness Lee did not claim that to be in the local churches would result in becoming overcomers. Rather he said that if you enter the life practices your chances may increase... but there is no guarantee.

The irrational component of your note is the allegation that only those in the Lords recovery will be overcomers. The church age is now ~2000 years old. There have been overcomers throughout every age. Revelation 2 & 3 show this clearly. Brother Lee taught nothing different Within the Catholic Church there are overcomers, as in the Protestant churches. We don’t know who the overcomers are... but we should aspire to be an overcomer, well pleasing to Him. That is why I appreciate this ministry, in spite of all the problems, ... the Lord Jesus just keeps supplying grace upon grace. Hope it is the same for you.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

How would I know? The bible didn't say explicitly.

But in my personal opinion, it would be forever. Matt 25 is different from Matt 5 or 18 where the people are sent to prison until the debt is repaid. Those people are under the custody of the jailer. I see those imprisonments in Matt 5 and 18 as God's disciplinary action in present life.

The servant in Matt 25 was not only unfaithful, he was worthless to his master. God's people are His treasure and this worthless servant is probably not one of them. If we interpret darkness as without God's presence, how can that worthless servant become more worthy without God's help there in the outer darkness? That's why I think he probably will stay there forever.

Hmmm, that is an interesting thought, but I don't think I agree with the eternal outer darkness thing. He was a bone fide servant and had been given things by his master, so he's a son in my thinking. The word for worthless could also be translated unmeritorious or unprofitable. Many know what it is like to have a son, yet they are basically unprofitable. We still love them and wouldn't punish them forever . . .

Yet it is a serious matter to fall into the hands of the Living God, and judgment does begin at His house!

So perhaps there are two basic principles that we can all agree on that are true from the word:

1. We are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

We might not know exactly what the accountability looks like, but I am convinced it is there - just way, way too many places the word talks about this. One brother I know says it's good enough just knowing these two basic things: {we are eternally saved; yet we're accountable for our works} and that is good enough for him to be motivated to seek Him continually!

So is there agreement on these two basic concepts?

[Drake]

-1

I agree with those two. I propose a third.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is strict yet He is fair in all His ways.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

I agree with those two. I propose a third.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is strict yet He is fair in all His ways.

Drake

AMEN and agreed! Maybe just add to #1 or #3 "He loves us"

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

AMEN and agreed! Maybe just add to #1 or #3 "He loves us"

Yes brother.. I’m on board!

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

We might not know exactly what the accountability looks like, but I am convinced it is there - just way, way too many places the word talks about this. One brother I know says it's good enough just knowing these two basic things: {we are eternally saved; yet we're accountable for our works} and that is good enough for him to be motivated to seek Him continually!

So is there agreement on these two basic concepts?

I prefer a little twist: {True believers are eternally saved; and they're accountable for their works.}

I have to constantly examine my faith to determine whether I really am a true believer, whether I walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which I have been called.

As A W Tozer said, "The man who is seriously convined that he deserves to go to hell is not likely to go there, while the man who believes that he is worthy of heaven will certainly never enter that blessed place."

[UntoHim]

Drake? Do you think ALL of the forum members and readers and lurkers are ignorant of the teachings and practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee? I think some are. And thankfully if they stick around for a little bit they won't be.

"My dreadful account of my experiences in the Local Churches"? Nah, I never mentioned anything about "my experience" in the Local Church of Witness Lee in recent posts. In fact, you know about as much as my experience in the Local Church as I know about yours. You have your "experience" and I have mine. If you think your "experience" cancels out the FACTS OF HISTORY you are sadly mistaken my man. There are too many people on this forum and elsewhere who know something different than the "party line". You see, some of us were there at the feet of Witness Lee for years and years...some like me, for decades. You and Ron Kangas cannot edit out what we heard and saw. Sorry to burst your bubble my man. As you have noted just recently...you are entitled to your own opinion....you are not entitled to your own facts.

There is a reason why there are testimonies on this very forum of former AND SOME CURRENT members of the Local Church of Witness Lee who have plainly and clearly stated that they have concerns and doubts about Witness Lee's teachings regarding "Outer Darkness". Of course they are simply reiterating the same concerns and doubts that people, within and without of the Local Church, have expressed for about 40+ years now. Much of the concerns stem from Witness Lee and his followers claiming that he was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth. (A claim, by the way, that you have never disavowed)

The bottom line, in my view, is not whether or not there will be rewards for those who have been "a good and faithful servant"....that is clearly stated in the Word. The issue is the basis upon which the "unfaithful" servants will be judged. Will these unfaithful servants be judged upon the Person and work of Jesus Christ the Righteous, or upon the person and work of a a man and his "ministry"? I am very confident about the first...I'm very doubtful and suspicious about the latter. Of course my "experience" (such as that may be) leads me to have lots of confidence and even boastfulness in the judgments and righteousness of Jesus Christ...and not so much in the judgments and righteousness (or lack thereof) of Witness Lee.

So, the question of "Outer Darkness", and the rewards and "punishments", and the implications for us believers in the here in now, can (and should) only be understood in the light of the Scriptures, and the common interpretations and understandings of learned and wise men since the beginning. Needless to say, Witness Lee is not to be considered among the "learned and wise men since the beginning"....not even close...not even in the ballpark.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"My dreadful account of my experiences in the Local Churches"? Nah, I never mentioned anything about "my experience" in the Local Church of Witness Lee in recent posts.

Why of course you mentioned your experience in the local churches.... a few hours ago you stated...

Post #139 UntoHim> “Of course our friend Drake is going to say "I never heard such things!" and "I don't recognize that Local Church!" Good for you my man. Glad you lived such a "sheltered church life". But many of us were not so lucky. Hundreds upon hundreds, probably thousands upon thousands, were not so lucky. Message after message, conference after conference, training after training, year after year, it was pounded and ingrained into the hearts and minds of the faithful - Go to meetings, EVERY meeting! Go to the conferences and trainings, EVERY conference and EVERY Training! Memorize the outlines! Buy those life studies! Pray read! Call on the Lord! And most important....believe with all your heart, and all your soul and all your mind that Witness Lee is the One Minister with The One Ministry for The age. Did all that? Good. At least you have a shot at being an overcomer. “

That is pretty “recent”,

Drake

[UntoHim]

What is the part of my post that you quoted that is not a fact?
-

[aron]

The RecV footnotes in Rev 20 & 12 verify what was clearly and repeatedly taught: that participants in the Millennium were either killed (martyred) during the church age or the great tribulation, OR got raptured at the start of the GT. No other route was offered.

It seems current LSM operatives either studiously ignore this teaching, or try to quietly modify it. But back in the day, it couldn't have been made more categorically clear, and as UntoHim and others relate, it was often held over us.

But now Lee, by not being either killed or raptured, has fallen in his own pit that he's dug for himself.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

We might not know exactly what the accountability looks like, but I am convinced it is there - just way, way too many places the word talks about this.

Drake and Evancelical have show you the truth of Witness Lee, we can learn from this speaker who recovered this truth. Many believers miss this.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Drake and Evancelical have show you the truth of Witness Lee, we can learn from this speaker who recovered this truth. Many believers miss this.

Have LSM leaders surreptitiously changed the footnotes to the RecV online version? This 'truth' seems to be changing, over time.

1. Who gets to participate in the 1,000-year kingdom? Has the roster changed, now that Lee has died, and was neither raptured or martyred?

2. What happens to those "in Christ" who don't get raptured or martyred? Outer darkness, or some less unpleasant fate?

I clearly remember the "raptured or martyred" teaching, and the participants in the trainings looking at each other afterward and mouthing those phrases, and my paper RecV seems to bear that out unequivocally in its footnotes. But now the LSM sings a new song? A new 'truth recovered'? The age has turned? Are we now recovering Lee from himself?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What is the part of my post that you quoted that is not a fact?
-

UntoHim,

We’ve already covered this ground..To recount...

In #149 I laid out what was inaccurate and irrational about your #139 post. I also interpreted the characterizations of your experience stated in #139 as “dreaded”..... Oh, the drudgery of it all! Meeting after meeting, conference after conference, the pounding into your head, the ingraining of messages into the faithful! Oh, that pray reading! The agony of calling on the Lord! I pity the gullible. Thank God I, UntoHim, am enlightened now and not like that Drake who lives a sheltered church life! ....

Is it more accurate to interpret your description as joyful?

In response to “dreaded” you emphatically stated in #155 that you never shared your experience in recent posts. To that I pointed out in post #156 that in post #139 you used the phrase “many of us were not so lucky” while describing events and practices in the local churches in your time there.

If you are not included in the “us” part of your statement then what exactly do you mean by “us” if it doesn’t include you? If by “not so lucky” you did not mean your church life experience was dreaded then exactly where on the scale of dissatisfaction do you put your experience? I mean seriously brother, one only needs to read one of your colorful tirades against Brother Lee and the local churches to know just how discontented you are about the whole experience.

And yet, it was your experience and I’m not refuting that... but what you cannot get over is that I went through all the same trainings, conferences, meetings, life practices, and the storms.... no shelter there. Just a different outcome. I might have even sat next to you or perhaps we had a meal together. What I can tell you is that after 40 years in the local churches and under this ministry I love the Lord Jesus more than ever, He continues to shine, draw, and impart life into me. And I really hope you too have found the peace that passes all understanding and that He has given you a joyful heart wherever you ended up.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

The RecV footnotes in Rev 20 & 12 verify what was clearly and repeatedly taught: that participants in the Millennium were either killed (martyred) during the church age or the great tribulation, OR got raptured at the start of the GT. No other route was offered.

It seems current LSM operatives either studiously ignore this teaching, or try to quietly modify it. But back in the day, it couldn't have been made more categorically clear, and as UntoHim and others relate, it was often held over us.

But now Lee, by not being either killed or raptured, has fallen in his own pit that he's dug for himself.

Aron,

Your post is uninformed .... perhaps willfully.

Read post #116 carefully. Believers are harvested before, during, and at the end of the great tribulation. Then...

“When the Lord Jesus returns, He will first terminate the false Christians, burning up all the false Christians, the tares. Then He will take up all the real ones into the air according to their maturity. At His judgment seat in the air, He will exercise His judgment over all the real Christians to decide who will be selected and chosen. Those will be the overcomers who will return to the earth and fight against the rebellious army of Antichrist. After defeating Antichrist and his army, the overcomers will be Christ’s co-kings, reigning with Him in His kingdom on the earth,” Witness Lee

In addition the dead in Christ, those not alive during the great tribulation, saints throughout the centuries, will also be judged in the air and many of them also will return with the Lord Jesus as part of His bridal army.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

The RecV footnotes in Rev 20 & 12 verify what was clearly and repeatedly taught: that participants in the Millennium were either killed (martyred) during the church age or the great tribulation, OR got raptured at the start of the GT. No other route was offered.

It seems current LSM operatives either studiously ignore this teaching, or try to quietly modify it. But back in the day, it couldn't have been made more categorically clear, and as UntoHim and others relate, it was often held over us.

It was very common for us young brothers in the LC to look at each other and say something like, "Well this is the only way we're getting in (to the millennial feast)!" and would make a gesture of neck-chopping with our hand (as in beheading). We would all knowingly nod and laugh in a pained sort of humor . . .

In fact, a brother and I used to do that as recently as maybe 10-15 years ago in Scottsdale. Thankfully we've received (and are receiving) fresh light from the Lord! (And it was a fresh knowing of His love that started opening the word to us in a clearer way.)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The bottom line, in my view, is not whether or not there will be rewards for those who have been "a good and faithful servant"....that is clearly stated in the Word. The issue is the basis upon which the "unfaithful" servants will be judged. Will these unfaithful servants be judged upon the Person and work of Jesus Christ the Righteous, or upon the person and work of a a man and his "ministry"? I am very confident about the first...I'm very doubtful and suspicious about the latter. Of course my "experience" (such as that may be) leads me to have lots of confidence and even boastfulness in the judgments and righteousness of Jesus Christ...and not so much in the judgments and righteousness (or lack thereof) of Witness Lee.

I am basically fine with where this thread has gone since I "rebooted" it (from where it was over a year ago). I do believe that WL went too far and planted damaging seeds of fear about outer darkness, and how one could easily wind-up there for 1000 years. Yup - been there, done that and wore the T-shirt plumb out a while ago! Praise the Lord He has shown, and is showing us that fear is not the basis for His motivation and dealing with us - NOT AT ALL. His basis and His motivation toward us is that of a loving Father who wants a real and living relationship with His children. That is His purpose. Yes, He will get His purpose (His family), but He is not a giant steamroller who delights in crushing us if we get in His way (that's what I used to imagine). That makes no sense to me now.

"There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment. 1 John 4:18 No way to say that better!!!

But, let me also say I am thankful to the Lord that He specifically led me somewhere which taught there was accountability for our works in this life (namely the LC). The unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 was afraid of the Lord and this resulted in him acting in unprofitable ways, and shows he was not perfected in love. Fear; Unfaithfulness; Not truly knowing Christ in his life (so he viewed Christ inaccurately) = a result of not profiting in his works.

The Lord gave me smaller doses of the Recovery than He did many others (let me say I am most thankful for His love to me and His timing of where He's led me). Others spent more time under the ministry of WL, and this doctrine of God crushing them if they (for instance) left the LC, and probably got more of this errant teaching into them than what got into me. But praise Him for fresh light regarding His love for us!

So again, all of us have some basic agreement on the below three principles in the word, right?

1. The Father loves us and we are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God who are true believers are thereby saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is firm yet He is fair in all His ways.

Wataya think of dem apples?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

I agree with those two. I propose a third.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is strict yet He is fair in all His ways.

Drake

Some further thought on this - the word "strict" - could we change that to "firm" perhaps? Strict often conjures up a picture of Sister Mary Elephant coming to gleefully whack someone with a ruler.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Some further thought on this - the word "strict" - could we change that to "firm" perhaps? Strict often conjures up a picture of Sister Mary Elephant coming to gleefully whack someone with a ruler.

sure... change it.....

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It was very common for us young brothers in the LC to look at each other and say something like, "Well this is the only way we're getting in (to the millennial feast)!" and would make a gesture of neck-chopping with our hand (as in beheading). We would all knowingly nod and laugh in a pained sort of humor . . .

I also remember the pained sort of humour. The oracle has spoken, told us our destiny, and now we deal with it. Slogans were born, "Even when he's wrong he's right" or "raptured or martyred" were examples.

But according to Drake we mis-remember? Hard to believe if what we heard was made so stark.

Originally Posted by Drake

“When the Lord Jesus returns, He will first terminate the false Christians, burning up all the false Christians, the tares. Then He will take up all the real ones into the air according to their maturity. At His judgment seat in the air, He will exercise His judgment over all the real Christians to decide who will be selected and chosen. Those will be the overcomers who will return to the earth and fight against the rebellious army of Antichrist. After defeating Antichrist and his army, the overcomers will be Christ’s co-kings, reigning with Him in His kingdom on the earth,” Witness Lee

In addition the dead in Christ, those not alive during the great tribulation, saints throughout the centuries, will also be judged in the air and many of them also will return with the Lord Jesus as part of His bridal army.

Drake

Please show the RecV footnote that supports the second paragraph. I've seen footnotes of verses for the quoted part. But nothing for the second part.

It may be that WL was so convinced that the Lord would return for himself and his followers in the LC that he simply glossed over the second part, of the believers who have gone on before. And now that he's died we mis-interpret his mis-emphasis? Again, the parallel for Darby is worth noting. Darby was absolutely convinced that Jesus would return to take him & the Brethren alive.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Please show the RecV footnote that supports the second paragraph. I've seen footnotes of verses for the quoted part. But nothing for the second part.

ummm. aron.

Let me get this rock fetch straight.... you want what about this statement?

"In addition the dead in Christ, those not alive during the great tribulation, saints throughout the centuries, will also be judged in the air and many of them also will return with the Lord Jesus as part of His bridal army."

... because you do not believe Witness Lee taught which part?

Exactly, what did he not teach about that statement that you want a reference of?

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

ummm. aron.

Let me get this rock fetch straight.... you want what about this statement?

"In addition the dead in Christ, those not alive during the great tribulation, saints throughout the centuries, will also be judged in the air and many of them also will return with the Lord Jesus as part of His bridal army."

... because you do not believe Witness Lee taught which part?

It's called a footnote. You are giving me a statement with no source. You often ask for sources of statements; so where is the Biblical source (verse + RecV footnote) for your assertion of Lee's supposed teaching?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

It's called a footnote. You are giving me a statement with no source. You often ask for sources of statements; so where is the Biblical source (verse + RecV footnote) for your assertion of Lee's supposed teaching?

I will give you a reference..... however, I am asking specifically what aspect of the statement are you in disbelief about?

You don't think Witness Lee believed the dead in Christ can be overcomers? You don't think he thought they would be raised at His coming? You don't think he believed they would be judged at His coming?

Be specific.

I'm asking you to be specific because I heard variations of that statement from Witness lee so many times that I find it incredulous that you doubt he believed and taught every word of it. It is so fundamental to his eschatology.

However, it has been decades and perhaps time is taking its toll. So, be specific about the things you do not think he believed. If there are multiple items list them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I will give you a reference..... however, I am asking specifically what aspect of the statement are you in disbelief about?

You don't think Witness Lee believed the dead in Christ can be overcomers? You don't think he thought they would be raised at His coming? You don't think he believed they would be judged at His coming?

The topic is on "outer darkness", or what WL called the "1,000-year summer school" where defeated believers went for remedial spiritual maturing. Weeping, gnashing of teeth & so forth.

I remember the LC slogan "raptured or martyred" as how to get into the "wedding feast" of 1,000 years, as taught by WL. Poster StG seems to remember similar rhetoric & teachings (post #163).

Then I look into the RecV footnotes and see the support for this:
__________________________________________________ ___

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Footnote: Not only the resurrected overcomers, such as the man-child in and the later martyrs, but also the raptured living overcomers, such as the firstfruits, have part in the issue of the first resurrection.

Life-Study: Revelation 15:2 says, “And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name, standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.” We may call those mentioned here the late overcomers, the believers who pass through most of the great tribulation and who overcome Antichrist and his worship. These are those referred to in 14:12 and 13, who will be martyred under the persecution of Antichrist, then resurrected to reign with Christ in the millennium (20:4).

Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Footnote: The harvest of the earth is God's people on earth, the believers in Christ. At His first coming to the earth, the Lord sowed Himself into His believers. All the believers since that time, who have received Him as the seed of life, have become God's crop on the earth. The first-ripe ones will be reaped as the firstfruits to God before the great tribulation. The majority will ripen with the help of the sufferings in the great tribulation and will be reaped, raptured, at the end of the great tribulation.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Footnote: Unto death indicates martyrdom. The overcoming believers who constitute the man-child do not love their soul-life even unto death.
__________________________________________________ _____

I don't see anything in Revelation 20 (the only place which specifically mentions the 1,000-year kingdom) on those who are already dead but not martyred participating. Neither verse nor footnote. Nor do I see it documented in other sections. All I see are 1)resurrected martyrs and 2)living "raptured" overcomers.

All of this seems to jibe with my and StGs memories. But you say WL taught differently.

[Drake]

-1

Aron,

I don’t disagree with any of that... but there is more about this topic than what is found just in the book of Revelation .

You are engaging in selective reading... ignoring the whole in favor of a part. Did Witness Lee only teach on this topic from the book of a Revelation? No, of course not.

So, I asked you three questions about what you thought Witness Lee did not teach or believe on this topic. I asked because you need to be clear about what you want me to elaborate on and provide a reference.

Let’s go there now. Please answer those questions.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

...there is more about this topic than what is found just in the book of Revelation .

You are engaging in selective reading... ignoring the whole in favor of a part. Did Witness Lee only teach on this topic from the book of a Revelation? No, of course not.

The topic of the 1,000 year kingdom is found only in a few verses in Revelation 20. It doesn't reference Paul's epistles (one might wonder if it avoids them). Witness Lee made what appear to be categorical statements about participation in this kingdom, using slogans to encapsulate his teachings. I remembered one - "raptured or martyred". I provided quotes which appear to align with my memory. (SonstoGlory has similar memories).

You have to bear with me, as my memories of the time are now going on 30 years. But I do remember the slogans! They were useful then and still are!

You made a generic statement and I asked for attribution. Apparently you're now stonewalling. Which is fine - I expect little else.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

The topic of the 1,000 year kingdom is found only in a few verses in Revelation 20. It doesn't reference Paul's epistles (one might wonder if it avoids them). Witness Lee made what appear to be categorical statements about participation in this kingdom, using slogans to encapsulate his teachings. I remembered one - "raptured or martyred". I provided quotes which appear to align with my memory. (SonstoGlory has similar memories).

You have to bear with me, as my memories of the time are now going on 30 years. But I do remember the slogans! They were useful then and still are!

You made a generic statement and I asked for attribution. Apparently you're now stonewalling. Which is fine - I expect little else.

Ok.. I’m trying to help you remember.

Your recollections are in part.

If you are going to restrict your understanding of the millennial reign of Christ to a verse at the end of Revelation... and then ask me to explain what Witness Lee taught about the millennial reign and the overcomers just from that.. then you are not only engaging in selective reading but are trying to win an argument by selecting facts.

Besides that, If there is any stonewalling Aron it is on your part right now. You have p,entry of time to construct arguments from one book of the Bible but you cannot find the time to answer yes or no to three simple questions. I think the reason is obvious, you know and I know that once you incorporate all that Witness Lee taught on this topic your argument folds like a house of cards. You prefer to keep making assertions about what he taught based on a few selective verses because to open the aperture to include what he taught in whole allows you to frame his teaching in a way that suits your point of attack.

Else, you are not only stonewalling, sadly, you appear to be engaging in the deceitful art of sophistry.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm haven't been ignoring the conversation between Aron & Drake, but I woke up this morning with this thought in me. The servant who is given over to the "jailers" (Matthew 18: 21-35) to repay his king everything was a matter of forgiveness. The king forgave his debt, but this slave did not forgive his fellow slaves of their's. He became very demanding and even beat his fellow slaves. This demonstrates how much unforgiveness was in him.

This section in Matthew 18 starts (prior to the parable) with a discussion about forgiveness, and Jesus tells them to forgive "70 times 7." I think this shows that God takes forgiveness very seriously. A HUGE price was paid for this - Christ was sent to suffer and die for complete forgiveness. Everything was given in order to forgive us. And He did it in such a complete way that He says He won't even remember our sins! He uses phrases such as, "as far as the east is from the west" is how far they are removed (Psalm 103:12), and says plainly that He will "remember your sin no more." (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 8:12)

So my thought is that since this parable ends with the unforgiving slave being thrown into jail, until his entire debt is paid, it is a warning specifically about us having any unforgiveness in our lives.

[awareness]

Another great post Sons.

Plus, let's keep all this in perspective. What's a 1000 yrs? but alas, only a day.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Plus, let's keep all this in perspective. What's a 1000 yrs? but alas, only a day.

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

Well then, reigning with the Lord for a 1000 yrs will be a only a day. But if it doesn't apply to outer darkness, than outer darkness is in our solar system, and we're narrowing in on where it is. Maybe it's in the illusive dark matter out there somewhere. But it's going around the sun, every 365 earth days.

Teeth means food. Hope there's a kitchen and bathroom there. We can feel around in the darkness.

I know, this sounds absurd. That's why I think it's symbolic, not literal.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So where can we look to see the Unfaithful spending a thousand years in outer Darkness? I heard the "punishment for non-transformed believers is a thousand years in outer darkness to ripened" many times. Where did this come from?

Witness Lee would say something like "The whole Bible shows us. . ." then make a pastiche out of a few disparate verses and there was our 'present truth'. In this case, he cobbled together the 1,000-year "millennial kingdom" of Revelation (see e.g., "they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" in 20:6) with gospel parables teaching responsibility and its consequences. But Jesus never spoke of a thousand-year prison in his parables, and John never wrote explicitly of a thousand-year prison (except for Satan) for "defeated believers" as a direct analog to his "wedding feast of the Lamb". This composite imagery was assembled by Lee.

In my case, I remember Lee in his spoken messages stressing to us the points "raptured or martyred". . . when I looked at the RecV verses in Revelation 20, on the 1000-year kingdom, it seemed to agree with this, and the footnotes were explicit and categorical as I remembered. I then checked the references in the footnotes in Revelation 20 - taking the reader to Revelation 12 (the man-child), Revelation 14, Revelation 15, and the commentaries seemed to concur - see post #171. (Drake says I put together a 'selective' reading but the verses were linked by RecV footnotes and cross-references, and thus were 'selected' by LSM! And all showed this "raptured or martyred" theme.)

Yet Lee himself was neither raptured nor martyred, and I publicly asked where this left him. He'd stressed to us that Nee had been martyred, and thus had his ticket punched. But what of Lee, I wondered?

Now, this question doesn't mean Lee was either wrong or right, but that he put together a personalised view. I think that he, like Darby and others before, was sure that he'd be raptured anon with his close acolytes and this would validate all his special claims. Now that he's buried, why should we uncritically submit ourselves to his personal theology? "But it's in the Bible!!" That's what the Jehovah's Witnesses say, and the Christian Scientists, and all the rest. I can put some verses together and make any claim I want. Why should Lee's claim, based on his own subjective pastiche, own anyone else's psyche?

It's fear, folks. He used fear to control, and manipulate, and coerce others. He set his son Timothy repeatedly into the church coffers (1962 Worlds Fair, then the Daystar Motor Home Corporation), and both walked away scot-free. Is this an overcomer? We know about his injection of other son Philip into church leadership, and Philip's subsequent and repeated encroachments. . . by his own yardstick Witness Lee failed. I don't think we should cow abjectly before his theology. Like it's objective and unquestionable 'truth'.

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery. The "1,000-year prison" teaching should not be received uncritically as if it were from God. Question it - challenge it - test it - prove it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by brotherx

If we today are so easily confused about the usage, and meaning, of a word like "ministry", then how much more so if we see something like "Peter's angel" in Acts 12, or "The Spirit not yet [given]" in John 7, or the imagery to the seven churches in Asia in Revs 2 & 3, or the Great Angel of the OT. To declare a word or phrase's meaning because it fits our preconceived notions, when we have almost no idea of the shared understandings, several thousand years ago, between the writer and readers, seems presumptuous.

Beware of teachers who confidently proclaim that they have the definitive understanding, and "this means that", simply because it fits their scheme which they peddle for fun and profit. It's a confidence game and they're selling themselves and their assurance, above any objective, realized "truth", including Jesus Christ Himself. If they can convince their hearer that they are sure, this reassures and calms (read: stupefies) the mark, who then takes shelter under their ministration, even if it has little bearing on the text at hand. Thus we hear, "Our brother" told us this, or that, so relax and assume that we now have reality firmly in our sights. Beware: it's a perilous journey, and these are the hidden reefs we were warned against.

When people peddle something like the "Thousand year prison" as a pillar in their own personal kingdom-building programme, beware. Prove all things.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm haven't been ignoring the conversation between Aron & Drake, but I woke up this morning with this thought in me. The servant who is given over to the "jailers" (Matthew 18: 21-35) to repay his king everything was a matter of forgiveness. The king forgave his debt, but this slave did not forgive his fellow slaves of their's. He became very demanding and even beat his fellow slaves. This demonstrates how much unforgiveness was in him.

This section in Matthew 18 starts (prior to the parable) with a discussion about forgiveness, and Jesus tells them to forgive "70 times 7." I think this shows that God takes forgiveness very seriously. A HUGE price was paid for this - Christ was sent to suffer and die for complete forgiveness. Everything was given in order to forgive us. And He did it in such a complete way that He says He won't even remember our sins! He uses phrases such as, "as far as the east is from the west" is how far they are removed (Psalm 103:12), and says plainly that He will "remember your sin no more." (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 8:12)

So my thought is that since this parable ends with the unforgiving slave being thrown into jail, until his entire debt is paid, it is a warning specifically about us having any unforgiveness in our lives.

What if the verse in Matthew 18:35 isn't translated as "jailer" how does that help or hurt this narrative of "Outer Darkness"?

The greek word here in Matthew 18 is basanistēs, meaning tormentor, Strongs G930.

Jailer, on the other hand - (See Acts 16:23 as an example) is desmophulax, meaning one who guards the prisoners.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

This composite imagery was assembled by Lee.

You say it so much better than I do.

Originally Posted by aron

It's fear, folks.

Fear with "Overcomer." Overcoming meant that we had to be more given. more committed, and more driven for "the ministry."

Overcomers are special. They aren't like the rest of the ordinary saints. They're the ones that are truest to Lee, like the Blended Brothers, the living example of what it means to be an Overcomer.

Then ... if you aren't going to be a overcomer, you risk outer darkness ... and then fear stepped up.

I see cultic methodologies going on?

[ABrotherinFaith]

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomes. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomes. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

There's nothing in the teachings that says overcoming is by our own efforts. That more reflects their lack of faith in the Lord's work and His ability, than anything Lee or Nee or the local churches actually teach.

For example, here are a few quotes from Lee and Nee showing that we cannot overcome by our own efforts:

But just as one cannot be saved through good works, one cannot overcome through good works.
~ Collected works of Nee, Overcoming Life

Do not try to overcome sin, nor to conquer your weakness , Life-Study of Genesis, Witness Lee

We may think that since the Lord has told us to overcome, we must therefore try to overcome, ......It does not mean this at all. ~ Witness Lee.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

You say it so much better than I do.


Fear with "Overcomer." Overcoming meant that we had to be more given. more committed, and more driven for "the ministry."

Overcomers are special. They aren't like the rest of the ordinary saints. They're the ones that are truest to Lee, like the Blended Brothers, the living example of what it means to be an Overcomer.

Then ... if you aren't going to be a overcomer, you risk outer darkness ... and then fear stepped up.

I see cultic methodologies going on?

Nothing like this is taught in the local churches or by Nee or Lee and I have never heard of outer darkness being used as a weapon of fear. You have this perspective about overcomers because you are viewing them from the point of view your own degraded condition.

Rather than overcomers being someone special above and beyond a "normal Christian" - an overcomer is someone who is a normal Christian. Every believer is meant to be an overcomer.

In other words, it is not that the bar to be an overcomer is set too high above and beyond a normal or ordinary believer, it is that the bar to being an overcomer is set at 'normal' but it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition.

[Evangelical]

As much as some of you have tried to exaggerate the teachings about outer darkness and the supposed fear it brings - I think it pales in comparison to Christian teachings about hell and eternal torment, particularly those which do not believe in eternal security (and there are many of them). Youtube is full of them.

Some have alleged or implied that the outer darkness teaching is meant to keep people in the recovery. I find that unlikely given that the non-OSAS teachings are better suited for that.

The outer darkness teaching serves no purpose to the recovery other than being a way to reconcile Arminian and Calvinist teachings with a view towards unity. For this reason the teaching is unifying, not divisive. It lets the Calvinist believe that they will not lose their salvation, and it assures the Arminian that no crime will go unpunished.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, I had the same thought. But that was said of the Lord, not us!

A 1000 years in outer darkness is a very long time. Even a 20 year earth time jail sentence is a Very long time... multiply that x 50 and suddenly it has your attention.

Compound that with the incarceration definition that LofT prefers... not with a jailer... but a torturer. That should cause every believer to pursue the Lord and His interests, with purity of heart and forgiveness toward one another, diligent in all things and not slothful, redeeming the time as the day draws near, all the days of our lives.

If you think it is a fearful concept, then it is a healthy one for you to have. As Evangelical says, some of you are overplaying the fear aspect. Yet, whether you believe it or not does not change that there will be a judgement and the consequences are laid out in the Scripture there for us to consider. Furthermore, you heard it here so you will be without excuse. I myself do not live in fear and I do not know anyone that does... however, there are times it needs to brought to remembrance and the Spirit within nudges me back with grace and life.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

(Drake says I put together a 'selective' reading

Yep.

Reminds of a nice young Muslim man I once talked to.

I was preaching the gospel to an Imam and some of his followers...... an intense encounter as you might imagine. After an hour or so, not sure exactly cuz time flies by when you’re having fun, and the screaming on their side subsided a few decibels a young man pulled me aside, handed me a KJV Bible, and challenged me to show him where it says “Jesus is God”. Several verses came to mind and as I started to thumb through to them he added “but you can only use the verses in RED”. He meant of course that He only wanted the proof from the actual quotes of Jesus as indicated by the red text in his Bible.

That is selective and that is what Aron is also doing.. pivoting his argument on “1000” or limiting it to the book of Revelation. Plugging his ears to the whole in favor of a part to support his argument. In so doing he is violating an important matter concerning the Word of God. He is breaking it. Jesus told the Jews they were doing this when He referred to Himself as the Son of God and He challenged them concerning their own teaching “gods” in Psalm 82. He said the scripture cannot be broken. Aron’s argument fails were he to allow Brother Lees teaching on the subject from whole Bible.... so he slices and dices the Word of God... breaking it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

That is selective and that is what Aron is also doing.. pivoting his argument on “1000” or limiting it to the book of Revelation. Plugging his ears to the whole in favor of a part to support his argument. In so doing he is violating an important matter concerning the Word of God. He is breaking it. Jesus told the Jews they were doing this when He referred to Himself as the Son of God and He challenged them concerning their own teaching “gods” in Psalm 82. He said the scripture cannot be broken. Aron’s argument fails were he to allow Brother Lees teaching on the subject from whole Bible.... so he slices and dices the Word of God... breaking it.

Drake

I've read thousands of posts by aron, and have never seen this.

You, on the other hand ...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomers. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

Last week I heard the same thing from some LC family members. So casually they speak about "making up classes at summer school" referring to a thousand years of outer darkness.

WL used this teaching to subjugate all of his adherents. Firstly he constantly condemned the whole of the body of Christ -- none of them had a chance. Next, inside the LCM, we were constantly given the impression that only those in the leadership at LSM had a "chance."

But how can this be after we learn the real stories of corruption at LSM. Will God overlook their deception, slander, coverups, swindling, etc. etc. -- just because these folks used the "correct" name for their franchise "churches?" How does anyone believe that?

Look at brother Titus Chu in Cleveland -- condemned, banned, shamed, and quarantined by LSM -- yet I hear this 80 y.o. brother spends much of his time on mainland China teaching the saints there -- one of the reasons they banned him.

Do LC folks really expect the Lord Jesus will judge these "condemned" ministers the same way as Lee and the Blendeds at LSM have done?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Last week I heard the same thing from some LC family members. So casually they speak about "making up classes at summer school" referring to a thousand years of outer darkness.

Yes. That's the same thing as I mentioned earlier about making the neck-chopping gesture with my hand to other brothers. We all knew what that meant - having our heads roll in the Tribulation was the only way we were getting in! (almost always resulting in pained laughter and head nodding in agreement) We "knew" according to the LC teaching there was no other way for us to get into the kingdom.

Bottom line here, Drake & Evan, is there are many on here who said they picked up the so-called "thousand years in outer darkness" concept from WL, and that teaching was pushed to an unhealthy extreme. Okay, maybe things have changed now (you both seem to infer that) in the LC and this is no longer pushed as a major doctrine, but I'm here to testify that it was certainly quite thick when I was around the LC last, back in the 1980s.

Now, with that said, it in no way negates that the word definitely & repeatedly shows accountability for our works; the things done while in the body! We're just pointing out that the pendulum swung too far to an extreme in the LC regarding this teaching.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery. The "1,000-year prison" teaching should not be received uncritically as if it were from God. Question it - challenge it - test it - prove it.

Yes & AMEN - for FREEDOM! (shades of William Wallace in Braveheart) We do need to test these things and not be under the yoke of fear!

A balancing word, as discussed, is what Christ tells the faithful servants in Matthew 25: "You have been faithful IN A FEW things . . . enter into the joy . . ." ("a few things" is not the big onerous demand that we often may imagine the Lord is going to be pleased with!)

So I want to bring these three things up again, as we didn't get many responding aye or nay. Can we have consensus on these three basic principles?


1. The Father loves us and we are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God who are true believers are thereby saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in the OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is firm yet He is fair in all His ways.

[awareness]

EvanG, yer such a sweet heart.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Nothing like this is taught in the local churches or by Nee or Lee and I have never heard of outer darkness being used as a weapon of fear. You have this perspective about overcomers because you are viewing them from the point of view your own degraded condition.

Thanks for the belly laugh. I rest my case.

Originally Posted by E Man

Rather than overcomers being someone special above and beyond a "normal Christian" - an overcomer is someone who is a normal Christian. Every believer is meant to be an overcomer.

In other words, it is not that the bar to be an overcomer is set too high above and beyond a normal or ordinary believer, it is that the bar to being an overcomer is set at 'normal' but it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition.

If there's overcomer's there's undergoer's, or some such. Overcomer's are more given, undergoer's, not so much.

Your statement, "it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition," proves my point.

Thanks for your good hearted reply bro Mr. E.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

A 1000 years in outer darkness is a very long time. Even a 20 year earth time jail sentence is a Very long time... multiply that x 50 and suddenly it has your attention.

Compound that with the incarceration definition that LofT prefers... not with a jailer... but a torturer. That should cause every believer to pursue the Lord and His interests, with purity of heart and forgiveness toward one another, diligent in all things and not slothful, redeeming the time as the day draws near, all the days of our lives.

If you think it is a fearful concept, then it is a healthy one for you to have. As Evangelical says, some of you are overplaying the fear aspect. Yet, whether you believe it or not does not change that there will be a judgement and the consequences are laid out in the Scripture there for us to consider. Furthermore, you heard it here so you will be without excuse. I myself do not live in fear and I do not know anyone that does... however, there are times it needs to brought to remembrance and the Spirit within nudges me back with grace and life.

Drake

Brother Drake 1000 years is a long time from our human earth perspective, but is nothing when compared to heavenly time.

As far as there being healthy fear? I remember when growing up every now and then we'd invite a hell fire preacher ... you know, like Jonathan Edwards', of the perchance infamous, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

Boy he'd scare the beejeebies out of us. I'm not sure if it was healthy or not, but that's what they did. As I grew up I saw thru belief based upon fear.

But fear was used to keep me in the LC. I was told of brothers that left, and how God punished them with death, or some such, for doing it.

So don't tell me that fear isn't used to keep people in the LC. I guess those hell fire preachers must of inoculated me, cuz I'm an example that fear doesn't work.

Christianity based on fear is bad Christianity, and is not scriptural (as one brother has quoted).

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

But fear was used to keep me in the LC. I was told of brothers that left, and how God punished them with death, or some such, for doing it.

So don't tell me that fear isn't used to keep people in the LC..

Not my experience, awareness. Like Evangelical, I never heard of it described like you are doing... like a strategy of some sort...

Whoa brothers, people might leave so let’s scare them into staying.... let’s tell them about Brother Sonso... he left and got hit by a school bus 3 days later.



Could there be a situation like that were a brother made a correlation? Sure. Is it a practice? Nah.

The reward and punishment of the millennial reign of Christ is another matter altogether. Doesn’t matter whether you fear it or not. Whether one believes it or not.... it will happen just as stated.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Bottom line here, Drake & Evan, is there are many on here who said they picked up the so-called "thousand years in outer darkness" concept from WL, and that teaching was pushed to an unhealthy extreme. Okay, maybe things have changed now (you both seem to infer that) in the LC and this is no longer pushed as a major doctrine, but I'm here to testify that it was certainly quite thick when I was around the LC last, back in the 1980s.

Now, with that said, it in no way negates that the word definitely & repeatedly shows accountability for our works; the things done while in the body! We're just pointing out that the pendulum swung too far to an extreme in the LC regarding this teaching.

Nope. Not my experience in 4 decades. Not my wife’s experience. Not anyone else that I know. There was no pushing it to any extreme ...anymore then your note keeps pushing it to extreme. Your last paragraph to balance out the front part of your note is no different in principle. (And if you keep balancing your posts you too will be remembered for your extremist views on accountability. )

Or for that matter, the discussion of the topic in this forum... another example... we talk about it here but we don’t talk about it in every other thread. Brother Lee was faithful to speak on the subject wherever it came up in the Word... Revelation, Matthew, and other relevant topics such as the Kingdom. Compare his ministry.... see how much of it was about outer darkness verses the other aspects of the Christian life, Christ and the Church, the Triune God, God’s eternal purpose, the mingled spirit, the Body and Bride of Christ, the Building of God. the life practices, etc. etc. Then come back and advise us whether he over emphasized outer darkness.... I know what you will find because I have read it for over 40 years.

Now, if someone wants to charge Brother Lee emphasized the kingdom... well, then they may have a point.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nope. Not my experience in 4 decades. Not my wife’s experience. Not anyone else that I know. There was no pushing it to any extreme ...anymore then your note keeps pushing it to extreme. Your last paragraph to balance out the front part of your note is no different in principle. (And if you keep balancing your posts you too will be remembered for your extremist views on accountability. )

Or for that matter, the discussion of the topic in this forum... another example... we talk about it here but we don’t talk about it in every other thread. Brother Lee was faithful to speak on the subject wherever it came up in the Word... Revelation, Matthew, and other relevant topics such as the Kingdom. Compare his ministry.... see how much of it was about outer darkness verses the other aspects of the Christian life, Christ and the Church, the Triune God, God’s eternal purpose, the mingled spirit, the Body and Bride of Christ, the Building of God. the life practices, etc. etc. Then come back and advise us whether he over emphasized outer darkness.... I know what you will find because I have read it for over 40 years.

Now, if someone wants to charge Brother Lee emphasized the kingdom... well, then they may have a point.

Drake

Nevertheless, I remember sitting in a meeting. Not sure who was speaking. Also not sure the location or exact date either, but pretty sure it would have been Berkeley (or perhaps a training) in the mid-70s. Stories were conveyed in the meeting about people who left. I remember one story in particular, about a brother who had been around a while and decided to leave the LC. A week later he was out mowing his lawn with an electric mower and ran across the cord - he was electrocuted and was killed immediately. There was a hush in the meeting and you could feel the awe and fear come over everyone. We were told something to the affect, "God takes the Recovery very seriously, and if you leave there will be consequences!" IT HAPPENED AND REGARDLESS WHAT YOU SAY, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THAT.

This kind of talk, which was brought up from time to time, had a very real effect on me for years. I remember working underneath my car, which was up on jacks (this would be around 1990). The thought came to me, "God is going to kick out these jacks and kill you right now because you've left the LC." I remember the fear that came over me. But then it hit me that God didn't need to resort to such things if He really wanted to take me. And besides, how could I resist Him anyway!? The whole notion was really silly and I had the strength to dismiss it as an attack of the enemy, and I don't think it every came back or at least not in the same way. I know, it's almost laughable now, but it happened.

Drake, I'm glad this wasn't your experience, but it was mine. I wish I could remember more details about where and when and who spoke it, but it also was not a one time thing and was common knowledge in the localities I was in.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Drake, I'm glad this wasn't your experience, but it was mine. I wish I could remember more details about where and when and who spoke it, but it also was not a one time thing and was common knowledge in the localities I was in.

My wife and I experienced a very similar thing in 2015/16. We were told that if we wanted to see a fruitful marriage/family we needed to stay in the Witness Lee churches (this was in Anaheim). I heard this very specifically stated, but also heard it many, many times through more indirect and passive statements.

I met with the Witness Lee churches for a year and encountered those from different parts of the state and a few from around the country. I can not believe that Drake hasn't experienced this - it runs counter to the entire culture of the Witness Lee church that I was a part of.

My marriage, kids, etc - are so awesome - praise and glory to God - and all this outside of the Witness Lee churches (far away). It is sad that folks are subject to these fear tactics and lies. I would love for those stuck within the LSM church to see my life, family, ministry, the good the bad, the highs the lows, and see that Jesus is the real deal and by his grace we find His truth.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've read thousands of posts by aron, and have never seen this.

You, on the other hand ...

Maybe I “slice and dice” the word to make my point to my satisfaction but do grievous disservice to truth. I'm probably at least partly affected by a combination of self-interested prejudice and ignorance, which can be dangerous. But when did I claim to be error-free? And more to the point, what of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee? Were they not also affected by bias and ignorance? The only assurance we have that they didn’t also occasionally stumble hermeneutically was their own bland assurance which they offered to us, that it was so: we in turn fell for their confidence game. Today, older but wiser, we realize the need to critically examine everyone who makes claims for "what the Bible says".

LSM apologist Drake (post#108)admits that the “thousand year punishment” isn't found in the Bible but is rather an amalgam put together by human imagination. Evangelical (post#186) likewise says that its purpose is to correct deficiencies in theological overlays such as OSAS/Calvinism and Arminianism. But how sure are we that this corrective overlay isn’t also lacking, as it claims its predecessors were? How sure are we that this is actually what Jesus and the disciples believed and taught?

There’s a reason I keep bringing up prodigal son Timothy Lee and his desire for church funds, and son Philip Lee's predations upon the females in the LC: they show that father Witness Lee was unqualified for NT church leadership, according to the "whole Bible" (see, e.g., Titus 1:6). Yet he remained there as not merely LC elder but Top Dog, largely by exploiting culturally-derived shared normative expectations (i.e. ignorance, bias and self-interest). And yet there was no bias in his hermeneutics?

For instance, in one place the psalmist declaring that he’d crush his enemies’ skulls and dip his feet in their blood was a type of the victorious Christ according to RecV footnotes; elsewhere such violent sentiments in Psalms are panned as “natural” and “fallen” and not according to NT principles. When I pointed out the glaring discrepancy, the best LSM operatives could reply was, “Perhaps this is so.” Well, perhaps it also isn't so! We should critically examine LSM teachings, and not assume that the bland assurance of truth (i.e. objective reality).

Even when I was a die-hard, I had little confidence in the “thousand years in jail” notion. To be sure, the NT teaches not only salvation by grace, but also responsibility to obey. The great picture of disobedience and its consequences, so vividly depicted in the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt, was thoroughly covered by NT expositors in Hebrews 3 and 1 Corinthians 10. And with that in mind, Jesus' gospel parables depicting responsibility and the consequences of disobedience are stark, and sober.

But the “thousand years in torment” idea, like many of Nee’s ideas, is crude, simplistic, and arbitrary. It simply doesn't satisfy the narrative nor common sense: Moses fell in the wilderness, but is later seen in glory on the mountain of transfiguration. His death on Mount Pisgah, in sight of the Promised Land, is clearly qualitatively different than if he’d died on the shore of the Red Sea.

My own analogy was, suppose there was a country where every infraction got the same punishment by law. Spit on the sidewalk, drop trash as litter, run a red light, you'd get two years in jail. But commit homicide or rob 3 banks, also get two years in jail. No proportionality – just arbitrary punishment. Satisfying? No. Yet the NT clearly shows reciprocity in proportion: “to whom much is given, much is required” &c. Many stripe vs few stripes. Prison until the fine is paid. There's not some arbitrary cut-off and all outside are doomed.

Now, having said that, there are cases where “a miss is as good as a mile” – if you were 6 feet outside of Noah’s ark, you were as doomed as being 6 miles away. You were either in, or out. But it’s debatable how relevant that is to conversations of reward and punishment.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Not my experience, awareness. Like Evangelical, I never heard of it described like you are doing... like a strategy of some sort...

I'm sorry of it sounded like it was a strategy. It was more like it was part of the frenzy in those days. Apparently -- we don't know -- that wasn't your experience either.

But given the way you make it sound, the local church has lost that fire, it's old glory days. OMG! Has it become like every other church meeting in Christendom? The ones I grew up on, grew tired of, and walked away from? Then joined the local church because they were on fire. You make me even happier I got the boot. Thank you Jesus.

Originally Posted by Drake

Whoa brothers, people might leave so let’s scare them into staying.... let’s tell them about Brother Sonso... he left and got hit by a school bus 3 days later.

No he was a welder. Shortly after leaving the LC he was welding on an old gas tank, and it blew up. So it was told. Maybe it was made up, tailor-made on the fly, just for me (Christians do lie), I don't know ; I should have known better, it happened that I was welding in those days. It also happened that I did know better. I left ; and am still living, decades later, and God still continues to bless me. Those liars. That'll teach me to trust Christians ... my supposed brothers and sisters. Hey, they took after brother Lee ... oh, and Nee ... oh, and Kangas ... oh, and the Lee chosen elder that gave me the boot (may he rest in peace ... I wonder if he's reigning in Christ? I wonder if Nee and Lee are?)???

It was all clearly a product of the frenzy back then, the glory days, that you apparently know nothing of -- given having to go to dead meetings, and training's, and all ... and listening to dead Ron Kangas. (Kangas was trained to speak profoundly, at Princeton, but he was really dead. His wife Susanne knew. And it's very obvious to me when I listen to him now).

Originally Posted by Drake

Could there be a situation like that were a brother made a correlation? Sure. Is it a practice? Nah.

Go ahead, poke fun. I like a little fun. Maybe frenzy is the wrong word. It was more like a fanaticism. I had it. They had it. We all had it.

We were all given to God's eternal purpose. We were all in. The thought of leaving it - the LC - terrified us. The thought of a brother and/or sister leaving it terrified us. And it WAS frantic. We're talking God's eternal purpose.

Originally Posted by Drake

The reward and punishment of the millennial reign of Christ is another matter altogether. Doesn’t matter whether you fear it or not. Whether one believes it or not.... it will happen just as stated.

Good old ambition pops its ugly head up again. Ambition was a bad thing when I was in the LC. Troublesome brothers were always branded ambitious.

So it just serendipitously happened, that Lee's teaching on "The reward and punishment of the millennial reign of Christ" just happened to fit right into Lees' Chinese hive mind thinking, and therefore could be used to make brothers even more ambitious to be even more given to his movement?

Sounds like a strategy to me ... brought over from China. Lee knew what he was doing brother Drake. He wasn't Mr. Magoo, stumbling around the west coast of America. . . . haha, or was he? John Ingalls should have known better. That'll teach him (R.I.P.).

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Could there be a situation like that were a brother made a correlation? Sure. Is it a practice? Nah.

In my experience I would say it is way more than a correlation but maybe not quite as far as a practice.....but it gets close.

I can second (or fourth?) this by adding that I grew up hearing these kinds of things many times also:

"So and so left the church and now they have a child born with disabilities."

"So and so left and their plane crashed and they died."

"So and so left/was negative and they now have throat cancer."

Those are all statements I have heard in the LC said about real people. Note that these are not statements expressing that the person left and their life went downhill because of something they themselves did. The negative outcome is always something outside of any human's control indicating that it was God's punishment.

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church....."waiting for the other shoe to drop on backslidden ones" as it were. Those kind of thoughts and fears (that still pervade my mind today) are only created through repetition and reinforcement.

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers. I know some people can hear things spoken and disregard them as "bones not for consumption", and I wish I was that way, but some people, like me, have a more sensitive trusting disposition and grow up taking things to heart because we weren't raised to discern and question, just to accept and trust blindly. Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

[awareness]

There you go again Trapped, dropping another great post. What will we ever do with you?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Nevertheless, I remember sitting in a meeting. Not sure who was speaking. Also not sure the location or exact date either, but pretty sure it would have been Berkeley (or perhaps a training) in the mid-70s. Stories were conveyed in the meeting about people who left. I remember one story in particular, about a brother who had been around a while and decided to leave the LC. A week later he was out mowing his lawn with an electric mower and ran across the cord - he was electrocuted and was killed immediately. There was a hush in the meeting and you could feel the awe and fear come over everyone. We were told something to the affect, "God takes the Recovery very seriously, and if you leave there will be consequences!" IT HAPPENED AND REGARDLESS WHAT YOU SAY, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THAT.

None of us should try to persuade Drake of what we have seen or heard in the LCM, but "we know what we know" ...

This is how it always went folks:

• If hardship befalls those inside the LC's, then we heard comments like, "the enemy always fights hardest against the saints," or "the Lord really loves him/her, and wants to gain their hearts," or "this just proves how much the enemy is out to get our families," etc.

• But if hardship befalls those outside the LC's, especially those who have left the LCM, then we heard comments like, "the Lord really means business in these days," or "don't play games with His testimony," or "see, if you leave the recovery, you leave the Lord's blessing."

Thus, they can have it both ways. Self-reinforcing circular reasoning in action.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church...

One thing you said at one point that I think is valuable is this: it was often strongly implied, that these things were so. But it might not get printed in HWMR, so as to keep the air of propriety (read: orthodoxy).

I grew up in an abusive home, and my family behaved differently when "company" came. Once the strangers left, then we got the "real family life." LC is like this in some ways that things are continually suggested as being so, without being able to confront them, because, "Where did we say anything like that" is the response.

It's extremely effective mind control because it's continual and repetitious, yet one can't confront it openly.

The other thing about Trapped's testimony is to imagine what it's like to grow up at 8 years old, 10 years old, and hear this stuff all the time. What kind of effect it has on one's ability to think. How many of them who leave the LC leave the faith! They just can't imagine God being any different from what they were brought up on.

Originally Posted by Trapped

If you have any more to say about this topic I am all ears. I have a hard time forgiving people, or if I manage to, it is hard for it to last or be "ongoing forgiveness". I know, "Christ is our forgiveness" but some of us have a harder time of it than others. Any more experience or advice would be much appreciated.
Unforgiveness truly is torture for the unforgiving!

I learned two things from the Master (aka Jesus the Lord, Rabbi Yeshua, the Teacher of Righteousness &c):
1. The gap between me and the most pathetic reprobate probably isn’t as great as the gap between me and the Most High God - my showing mercy to sinners on my path is an opportunity for God to show mercy to me.
2. As I do unto others God will do to me. If I forgive, I will be forgiven (Matt 6:12); if I don’t forgive, I won’t be forgiven (Matt 6:15).
Pretty simple stuff, really.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

None of us should try to persuade Drake of what we have seen or heard in the LCM, but "we know what we know" ...

This is how it always went folks:

• If hardship befalls those inside the LC's, then we heard comments like, "the enemy always fights hardest against the saints," or "the Lord really loves him/her, and wants to gain their hearts," or "this just proves how much the enemy is out to get our families," etc.

• But if hardship befalls those outside the LC's, especially those who have left the LCM, then we heard comments like, "the Lord really means business in these days," or "don't play games with His testimony," or "see, if you leave the recovery, you leave the Lord's blessing."

Thus, they can have it both ways. Self-reinforcing circular reasoning in action.

That is a great point. Absolutely I have been on that circular merry-go-round.

The reality, that I think I only have ever heard expressed once in the LC, is:

1. Hardship befalls everyone in life - old, young, happy, bitter, believers, and non-believers.
2. Sometimes the enemy or the Lord is actually directly behind a situation. But oftentimes things just happen (a gallon of milk slips out of your hands and spills everywhere....that wasn't Satan or the Lord, it just happened).
3. Saints in and out of the LC get cancer, have children with disabilities, die of tragic accidents. This is because we are all humans, not because we are in or out of the LC.
4. If the Lord truly is behind something happening, whether sovereignly allowing it or actually causing it, I think anyone who points to it and claims to know the reason is overstepping the Lord's position. Vengeance or punishment belongs to the Lord, and only He knows why He does or allows anything, and the reasons behind it.
5. As believers, because of His mercy, we have the Lord. As we endure hardship like every other person on earth does, He is the best person for us to turn to. We do not have to be in the LC to turn to the Lord or for Him to meet us. We just need to be where He wants us. Actually, He will meet us even if we aren't yet where He wants us at that point in time!

If Drake says he didn't hear or experience certain things, I don't have a reason to doubt him in his own experience. He has also stated many times that if he went through what many of us describe he probably would not be around either.

We all experience, perceive, and interpret different things differently. I know in some localities the brothers are very clear: "We do not follow a man." And in other localities it gets stated equally clearly: "We are following a man!" I know this happens - two groups of saints, all in the LC's, hearing diametrically opposing thoughts, each convinced that the opposite could never be true.

I used to take everything that came out of the saints' mouths as being the truth and the Lord's speaking, but now I know I need to discern. Many times the saints are just wrong in their speaking, but often without malicious intent in their error. Rather, they are not clear themselves. I'm not saying this to imply that I am clear or am never wrong in my speaking, just that I've learned I need to be cautious to filter what comes in through the light of the truth, or else clearing out the sludge that builds up without filtering is a much more difficult process.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

There you go again Trapped, dropping another great post. What will we ever do with you?

Thanks awareness, I actually really needed those positive words today. I appreciate it. You gave me a good laugh too.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by aron

The other thing about Trapped's testimony is to imagine what it's like to grow up at 8 years old, 10 years old, and hear this stuff all the time. What kind of effect it has on one's ability to think. How many of them who leave the LC leave the faith! They just can't imagine God being any different from what they were brought up on.

Not only are you a young child carrying around that burden, but once you grow up some and realize that you were cheated out of knowing the real person and heart of God, you are then left to wrestle with the questions of "Where was God in all this? Why would He let me go on for so long under such a heavy burden without stepping in to clear it up? If He really wants a relationship with me, where was He to correct the misrepresentation and show Himself to me? Does He really love me or just love seeing me hurt?"

It really does a number on you.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers...Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

Great post Trapped! Of course all current Local Church members are going to deny that such a cultish atmosphere exists within the movement. Denials of such teachings/practices are to be expected from such cultic/aberrational groups like the Local Church of Witness Lee. According to my observation, these kind fear mongering tactics are less prevalent in the movement these days, but as you noted, they are deeply ingrained in the hearts and minds of the faithful older ones - the very ones who have the most influence. I distinctly recall some of my concerned family members asking me if such rumors were perpetrated, and I distinctly recall denying any such rumors or stories were circulated among the members. (insert Pinocchio's growing nose emoticon here) Hey, if Witness Lee could deny that he was to be considered an apostle, I could certainly get away with such a little harmless white lie...am I rrriiigggghhhttt?

This whole matter of "Outer Darkness" as taught in the Local Church is an extreme and tortured interpretation of a purgatory-like Millennial kingdom punishment used by quite a number of false teachers and apostle wannabes over the centuries. Witness Lee wasn't the first one to teach this, and he won't be the last I'm sure.
-

[Evangelical]

It is human psychology to recall bad events or teachings and forget the good...particularly if they are 30 years ago. Whenever I hear about outer darkness it is often tempered with the truth about eternal security and its purpose to correct and reform not destroy. Anyway..a believer should fear displeasing the Lord rather than fear punishment. A doctrine without outer darkness could be considered 'sparing the rod'.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is human psychology to recall bad events or teachings and forget the good...particularly if they are 30 years ago. Whenever I hear about outer darkness it is often tempered with the truth about eternal security and its purpose to correct and reform not destroy. Anyway..a believer should fear displeasing the Lord rather than fear punishment. A doctrine without outer darkness could be considered 'sparing the rod'.

How would someone be corrected and reformed in darkness? Wouldn't he or she need God's light?

[UntoHim]

Good point A little brother!

Of course this is just another indication of the serious problems with Witness Lee's make-it-up-as-you-go-along, wacky "theology". Undoubtedly, he got some of the basics of this "Outer Darkness" stuff from the Brethren, and maybe a few others, but as Lee was apt to do, he took a questionable doctrine/teaching and blasted it to all new heights of absurdity and foolishness. And then, before you know it, you have a bunch of young and gullible people thinking that if they leave some tiny, insignificant sect they are going to get cancer, or get into a horrible car accident, or a grand piano is going to fall on their head.

As has been noted, thankfully this madness is much less of an issue in the movement in recent times. But we can be sure that this kind of mentality is still alive and well within the ranks of the Official Leaders - The Blended Brothers, and probably also with the great majority of elders in the various Local Churches. May God have mercy.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

How would someone be corrected and reformed in darkness? Wouldn't he or she need God's light?

Your question is equivalent to asking "how would gold be refined through fire, wouldn't it need light?". Obviously for the purification to take place, the impurities need to be burned away.

Salvation is justification, sanctification, and glorification. Outer darkness is for sanctification, and therefore for salvation. Evangelicals/Protestants err by thinking that sanctification and glorification is not part of salvation. That's why they cannot explain the verses about gold refined by fire. They think that believers in whatever carnal condition and any state receive full rewards in heaven without consequence. When this is in direct contradiction to the scriptures about "sparing the rod".

An example of this misunderstanding is when OBW wrote in this thread:

"And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification. "

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

An example of this misunderstanding is when OBW wrote in this thread:
"And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification."

You're quoting someone out of context. Please provide the exact reference for OBW's statement so we can judge for ourselves what he was saying, rather than taking your word for it.
.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

You're quoting someone out of context. Please provide the exact reference for OBW's statement so we can judge for ourselves what he was saying, rather than taking your word for it.
.

It's post #6, and the statement I quoted reflects the general misunderstanding in Christianity that salvation means justification and sanctification is not related to salvation.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your question is equivalent to asking "how would gold be refined through fire, wouldn't it need light?". Obviously for the purification to take place, the impurities need to be burned away. Salvation is justification, sanctification, and glorification. Outer darkness is for sanctification, and therefore for salvation. Evangelicals/Protestants err by thinking that sanctification and glorification is not part of salvation.

Where says there is fire in outer darkness? Or any form of God's work to purify? Where says the servant will return from outer darkness to his master?

(BTW, in case you don't know, fire produces light)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Where says there is fire in outer darkness? Or any form of God's work to purify? Where says the servant will return from outer darkness to his master?
(BTW, in case you don't know, fire produces light)

I thought the answer to that should be obvious:

1 Cor 3:15
“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire"

Yes fire does produce light, but that is a byproduct from the use of fire. You were referring to the use of light to reform.

[A little brother]

Did Paul mention anything about outer darkness? How is this verse related?

I am not referrng to the use of light to reform. I was referring to God's presence.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

LSM apologist Drake (post#108)admits that the “thousand year punishment” isn't found in the Bible but is rather an amalgam put together by human imagination[/B] .

That is a complete fabrication. I never admitted such thing. I never suggested or implied such a thing. Rather, I said just the opposite.

Aron, you are doing to my posts what you do to Brother Lee’s teaching. You make stuff up, you use selective text, and you twist. Really brother you should be ashamed of your behavior.

Let be me clear and bring this home for you to the topic of this thread. The judgement seat of Christ is real, it will happen right on schedule, and every believer who stands before Him will give an account of every word and deed... including those words in your posts in this thread. Those who are worthy will enter the 1000 year millennial reign as co-kings with Christ. And those who aren’t will be cast into outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Speculate on what that will be however you like. That punishment is the testimony of the Bible, and the only amalgam of human imagination are the ones you keep fabricating here.

Hope that helps.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

That is a complete fabrication. I never admitted such thing. I never suggested or implied such a thing. Rather, I said just the opposite

I numbered the post in question. Let the reader decide if I misrepresented your statement.

For all of your indignation you mount no defence. If you can show an extensive paper trail of scripture commentary going back thru Clement of Alexandria and Origen we might think differently. Otherwise we conclude that this "thousand years of torment" is a recent idea, designed to paper over the perceived gap between OSAS Calvinism and Arminianism.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Did Paul mention anything about outer darkness? How is this verse related?

I am not referrng to the use of light to reform. I was referring to God's presence.

The verse shows God's punishment for believers is temporary. So we can know that outer darkness as a punishment for believers, is temporary.

If we believe otherwise we cannot believe in eternal security. If the servant does not return from outer darkness, then eternal security is false. Now you could say that such a servant was not a true servant in the first place, but that is harder to prove than proving that outer darkness is temporary, because it would make God's Word a lie if the word servant does not actually mean a true servant.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

I numbered the post in question. Let the reader decide if I misrepresented your statement.

For all of your indignation you mount no defence. If you can show an extensive paper trail of scripture commentary going back thru Clement of Alexandria and Origen we might think differently. Otherwise we conclude that this "thousand years of torment" is a recent idea, designed to paper over the perceived gap between OSAS Calvinism and Arminianism.

As an independent reader I have reviewed Drake's post in question. He stated that it comes from a "correlation between parables".
This was interpreted by you as "an amalgam of human imagination".

"correlation between parables" means that he has inferred from the parables that the doctrine is most likely a true proposition. Drake said "I never suggested or implied such a thing. Rather, I said just the opposite", meaning, he did not imply the use of human imagination but rather deductive reasoning.

Therefore, to declare it to be "of the imagination" would be a misrepresentation of his statement. Drake did not engage in the use of imagination, but rather a logical conclusion arrived at by correlating parables by the use of reason.

Maybe it is because English is not your native language, but the dictionary definition of the word "correlation" is the process of establishing a relationship or connection between two or more things., which does not imply the use of one's imagination, but rather, sound reasoning.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Let be me clear and bring this home for you to the topic of this thread. The judgement seat of Christ is real, it will happen right on schedule, and every believer who stands before Him will give an account of every word and deed... including those words in your posts in this thread. ...That punishment is the testimony of the Bible, and the only amalgam of human imagination are the ones you keep fabricating here.

Let me also be clear: at the Judgment Seat of Christ, Witness Lee and his followers will find out that God is not a respecter of persons. It's in the Bible, it's written and is real, and they'll find out right on schedule. And won't it be a surprise to many!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As an independent reader I have reviewed Drake's post in question. He stated that it comes from a "correlation between parables".
This was interpreted by you as "an amalgam of human imagination".

"correlation between parables" means that he has inferred from the parables that the doctrine is most likely a true proposition. Drake said "I never suggested or implied such a thing. Rather, I said just the opposite", meaning, he did not imply the use of human imagination but rather deductive reasoning.

Therefore, to declare it to be "of the imagination" would be a misrepresentation of his statement. Drake did not engage in the use of imagination, but rather a logical conclusion arrived at by correlating parables by the use of reason.

A "correlation" and an "inference". Objectively speaking, an interpretation. Not 'truth'. Certainly not scripture. Every interpretation should be tested, if it is of the imagination (colored by ignorance, bias, and self- interest) or if it were truly of God and worthy of guiding the assembly.

To be fair, Drake said it was a construction of the human mind. To repeat, I believe this mind was not led by the Holy Spirit, but was rather at a point in religious history, and was struggling thru a Protestant dilemma (OSAS &c). Not the first to do so.

There is a reason James said, "Do not be many teachers". The hermeneutical world of LSM is case in point. (Ja 3:1) It reminds me nothing so much as the story of the old lady who swallowed the fly. But of course, that is inference. A correlation perceived by my human mind.

Hope that helps.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

That is a complete fabrication. I never admitted such thing. I never suggested or implied such a thing. Rather, I said just the opposite.

Aron, you are doing to my posts what you do to Brother Lee’s teaching. You make stuff up, you use selective text, and you twist. Really brother you should be ashamed of your behavior.

Let be me clear and bring this home for you to the topic of this thread. The judgement seat of Christ is real, it will happen right on schedule, and every believer who stands before Him will give an account of every word and deed... including those words in your posts in this thread. Those who are worthy will enter the 1000 year millennial reign as co-kings with Christ. And those who aren’t will be cast into outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Speculate on what that will be however you like. That punishment is the testimony of the Bible, and the only amalgam of human imagination are the ones you keep fabricating here.

Hope that helps.

Drake

Drake, it would also be nice to see this level of accountability related to the judgment seat of Christ related to unrighteous and criminal behaviors at LSM. Why doesn't your blood boil with indignation seeing all the damaged and stumbled children of God?

You learned well from Witness Lee. He would shutdown all cries for accountability using the same techniques -- threatening them with the judgment seat of Christ -- while covering up for his profligate son Philip molesting another of the volunteer staff. Or perhaps while fleecing the saints with that Daystar boondoggle.

So, why don't you climb down from your high horse and discuss these teachings? You don't like aron's take on things? Then use your vast debating skills to teach from the scripture. And leave out your favorite Straw man. Please!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One thing you said at one point that I think is valuable is this: it was often strongly implied, that these things were so. But it might not get printed in HWMR, so as to keep the air of propriety (read: orthodoxy).

Reminds me of an Islamic practice. Muslims are permitted to deceive the "infidels" if their cause is being furthered. It's called "al-Taqiyya" meaning deception; the islamic word for concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies.

How else does one explain Drake's non-stop declarations, that after 40+ years in the LC's, he has never witnessed anything we discuss on this forum.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I numbered the post in question. Let the reader decide if I misrepresented your statement.

For all of your indignation you mount no defence. If you can show an extensive paper trail of scripture commentary going back thru Clement of Alexandria and Origen we might think differently. Otherwise we conclude that this "thousand years of torment" is a recent idea, designed to paper over the perceived gap between OSAS Calvinism and Arminianism.

Yes, let the reader decide if you have represented my views accurately. As the one who you are quoting I am making it clear you are not and you are fabricating., putting words in my mouth, etc.

I’m not indignant, but you don’t get to define what I believe or or teach. If you misunderstand I’m always happy to clarify., if you purposefully put words in my mouth then I will object. Substantiate your argument on the facts, not on selective references, not on slices and dices, and not on fabrications about what I “admitted”. Okay?

Now, to the last part of your post I disagree. l do not need to trace a paper trail back through history to the church fathers to validate the fact of outer darkness.. They are a good reference as to what the church in the first few hundred years taught but their teachings are not the authority of the Bible. We can use them as a touch point to understand how the early Church viewed a certain matter in the scriptures but they do not replace the scriptures.

Rather, we have the Bible.. in there are parables about outer darkness and the reason servants are cast there. If you disagree with Brother Lee’s explanation, which is similar to mine, then have a go at one yourself.

Let hear it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

l do not need to trace a paper trail back through history to the church fathers to validate the fact of outer darkness.. They are a good reference as to what the church in the first few hundred years taught but their teachings are not the authority of the Bible. We can use them as a touch point to understand how the early Church viewed a certain matter in the scriptures but they do not replace the scriptures.

Rather, we have the Bible.. in there are parables about outer darkness and the reason servants are cast there.

Now ... we are getting somewhere!

The Bible is now our sole definitive source!

That's what this forum has been saying for years. And now you agree related to the topic of "outer darkness." That's a good start. How about concerning Lee's "man becomes God" high-peak teachings? Can we also stick to the Bible with those?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Rather, we have the Bible.. in there are parables about outer darkness and the reason servants are cast there. If you disagree with Brother Lee’s explanation, which is similar to mine, then have a go at one yourself.

Here is truth: God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day. It's clearly and repeatedly presented in scripture by multiple witnesses. Remember, many questions that the disciples asked Jesus, were met with, "What is that to you? Follow me". Answers were not given.

Asking me to replace Lee's speculative imagery with my own? Nah, I'll stick to the revealed scriptural truth.

StG asked, "Where in scripture do we see 'defeated believers' going into outer darkness for 1,000 years?" No answer has been given.

Again, "Do not be many teachers" - in pointing out the lacks, which are many, of your supposed oracle, doesn't mean that we are angling for his 'position'; you know, "seer of the divine revelation" &c. . . rather that we are rejecting his claims as presenting a priori objective truth. Unless of course, you or someone can show their substance. In the meantime, don't conflate the two ideas and project motives onto others.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Drake and Evancelical have shown you the truth of Witness Lee, we can learn from this speaker who recovered this truth. Many believers miss this.

This is the kind of uncritical and thoughtless response that's endemic in the LC - that Witness Lee spoke "recovered truth". How can you show that this "truth" even existed in the first century? It was apparently "recovered" out of thin air in the 19th or 20th centuries!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Rather, we have the Bible.. in there are parables about outer darkness and the reason servants are cast there. If you disagree with Brother Lee’s explanation, which is similar to mine, then have a go at one yourself.

Let hear it.

Drake

Who needs Lee to tell us about Gods' punishments and rewards? They're in the Bible. Jesus told us about them.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The verse shows God's punishment for believers is temporary. So we can know that outer darkness as a punishment for believers, is temporary.

If we believe otherwise we cannot believe in eternal security. If the servant does not return from outer darkness, then eternal security is false. Now you could say that such a servant was not a true servant in the first place, but that is harder to prove than proving that outer darkness is temporary, because it would make God's Word a lie if the word servant does not actually mean a true servant.

I think your have misread the bible again because of your own preconception. Please check 1 Cor 3:13. The fire is a test, not punishment.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Evangelicals/Protestants err by thinking that sanctification and glorification is not part of salvation.

Wow Evangelical, it seems you've never delved into a deeper study or am thinking a hasty generalization or just mere a strawman fallacy.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

In my experience I would say it is way more than a correlation but maybe not quite as far as a practice.....but it gets close.

I can second (or fourth?) this by adding that I grew up hearing these kinds of things many times also:

"So and so left the church and now they have a child born with disabilities."

"So and so left and their plane crashed and they died."

"So and so left/was negative and they now have throat cancer."

Those are all statements I have heard in the LC said about real people. Note that these are not statements expressing that the person left and their life went downhill because of something they themselves did. The negative outcome is always something outside of any human's control indicating that it was God's punishment.

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church....."waiting for the other shoe to drop on backslidden ones" as it were. Those kind of thoughts and fears (that still pervade my mind today) are only created through repetition and reinforcement.

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers. I know some people can hear things spoken and disregard them as "bones not for consumption", and I wish I was that way, but some people, like me, have a more sensitive trusting disposition and grow up taking things to heart because we weren't raised to discern and question, just to accept and trust blindly. Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

Trapped,

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless. I don’t know, but maybe we as humans want assurance that a similar random event of fate won’t also befall us so a reason or a cause is needed. The scripture that comes to mind is the man blind from his birth.. the people thought that maybe he or his parents sinned... but the Lord said it was so the works of God might be manifest.

My point is this, the Lord may act severely toward those who oppose His interests as with Pharoah, Herod, and yet sometimes He chastises His own harshly, or as StG prefers, firmly. Those that died in the wilderness probably consider it a 10 on the harsh scale. Moses was excluded from entering the good land after all that transpired because of one incident.... where he misrepresented God before the people. However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us.... rather, He wants us to enter the kingdom richly and has made all provision for us to do so. Yet, servants then are cast into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. That is a future matter, yet in this life God sends rain to the just and the unjust. I believe your testimony and the affect it had on you..... but it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day. Your experience, and that of others like it seems to issue primarily from the category of the man who was blind from birth. God may intervene as He pleases and we have to allow for that... but it is not a teaching used to subjugate and control the members of His Body. His ruling us is primarily by feeding us.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Here is truth: God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day. It's clearly and repeatedly presented in scripture by multiple witnesses. Remember, many questions that the disciples asked Jesus, were met with, "What is that to you? Follow me". Answers were not given.

Asking me to replace Lee's speculative imagery with my own? Nah, I'll stick to the revealed scriptural truth.!

Aron,

If your “truth” includes the parables that mention judgment and the outer darkness then please provide an explanation about what they mean. The consequences are serious according to those parables.

If you don’t know and have no explanation that is okay... say that.... but please don’t pretend that you know but refuse to answer because Jesus said ONCE (not to many questions as you assert) to Peter “ what is that to you.”. That has nothing to do with this topic.

What Jesus did say is the mysteries of the kingdom where given to His followers to know:

“He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” Matt 13:11

So, feel free to provide your own explanation..... if you have one.

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron,

If your “truth” includes the parables that mention judgment and the outer darkness then please provide an explanation about what they mean. The consequences are serious according to those parables.

If you don’t know and have no explanation that is okay... say that.... but please don’t pretend that you know but refuse to answer because Jesus said ONCE (not to many questions as you assert) to Peter “ what is that to you.”. That has nothing to do with this topic.

I've already explained and affirmed the principle of judgment, mentioned in 1 Cor 10 and Heb 3, as reinforcing the parables of Jesus as pertaining to believers. But the question on this thread has been, where does this say, "For 1,000 years"?

Still no answer. The best we can get is "it's inferred" by one recent Bible expositor. And this is to be our truth?

And Jesus only said "none of your business" only once? What about Acts 1:7. My translation says, "it is not for you to know"

Now, judgment for unfaithful (christian) servants may indeed be for 1,000 years. But then again it may not. Scripture doesn't say.

[UntoHim]

Drake,
Once again your post is a dodge of biblical proportions. It is becoming increasingly clear that either you don't have much first hand knowledge and experience of the same Local Church we are speaking of, or you have been walking around in a coma for 40 years. Of course there are other alternatives, but I would not like to think that a Christian brother would resort to that kind of deception on a public forum. (and I think you're quite right, by the way, about God will judge us for what we write on this forum)

Originally Posted by Drake

However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us...

Good point. So why did Witness Lee and many of his hand-picked elders/ministry leaders feel it so necessary to create such an atmosphere of abject fear of a man and the religion he invented? I mean, I never heard of someone fearing a dreadful death or accident if they spoke against Chuck Smith or left Calvary Chapel for another church. When's the last time you heard a member of Saddleback church say they had a fear of getting cancer if they didn't buy copious copies of A Purpose Driven Life, or spoke even the slightest criticism of Rick Warren...or God help them if they stopped attending Saddleback.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless.

If I didn't know you I would think this is one of the coldest and heartless things ever written on our little forum. For the time being, I'll just take into consideration that my first paragraph here is accurate. No Drake, we didn't have to seek for any explanations...the explanations were given in not-so-veiled insinuations and hardly subtle references to what would befall a Local Churcher who strayed from "The Lord's Recovery." This kind of cultic atmosphere was not uncommon or limited to those of us in Orange County near the headquarters on Ball Road. It was movement-wide because Witness Lee's influence was obviously movement-wide.

This matter of "Outer Darkness" is not a simple teaching or "doctrine" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. It is part and parcel of a larger system of error. It is impossible to take this teaching and discuss it apart from the entire gambit of the teachings, practices and history. I know that current LC members find it convenient to attempt to steer the discussion in a direction which diverts attention away from the realities that were, and now are, faced by followers of Witness Lee. So, steer away fellows...but don't expect to have much success around here.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This matter of "Outer Darkness" is not a simple teaching or "doctrine" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. It is part and parcel of a larger system of error. It is impossible to take this teaching and discuss it apart from the entire gambit of the teachings, practices and history. I know that current LC members find it convenient to attempt to steer the discussion in a direction which diverts attention away from the realities that were, and now are, faced by followers of Witness Lee. So, steer away fellows...but don't expect to have much success around here.
-

As I said before, at a recent family reunion the matter of outer darkness "summer school" was casually mentioned in front of others, believers or not, LC or not, which definitely indicates that this is just part of their daily fellowship. Nobody tried to "steer the conversation" away from the topic of "I'm not ready, I need more time, otherwise I'll be going to summer school for a long time." Yet, sitting there lounging on the deck with an assortment of friends and family, there was no sense of urgency whatsoever.

And these lovely saints are not from the Midwest. They fully supported the quarantine of TC.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I've already explained and affirmed the principle of judgment, mentioned in 1 Cor 10 and Heb 3, as reinforcing the parables of Jesus as pertaining to believers. But the question on this thread has been, where does this say, "For 1,000 years"?

Still no answer. The best we can get is "it's inferred" by one recent Bible expositor. And this is to be our truth?

And Jesus only said "none of your business" only once? What about Acts 1:7. My translation says, "it is not for you to know"

Now, judgment for unfaithful (christian) servants may indeed be for 1,000 years. But then again it may not. Scripture doesn't say.

Aron, you admitted that the punishment cited in the parables was “stark and sober”... then you dismissed Brother Nees explanation... and offered none of your own.

Furthermore, this thread is about the outer darkness...and to StGs question about the duration of the punishment he has received two explanations... one from me on coming out after the “last farthing” has been paid and Evangelicals on the severity... number of lashes. Both of those explanations are based on the same assumption that there is an outer darkness, it happens during the 1000 millennial reign of Christ, it is a place of punishment to the believers who do not overcome, the Lord will make the judgement, and it will last no longer than the end of the 1000 millennial reign of Christ.

If not during the millennial reign of Christ, then when does the outer darkness occur? Do share.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This matter of "Outer Darkness" is not a simple teaching or "doctrine" in the Local Church of Witness Lee. It is part and parcel of a larger system of error. It is impossible to take this teaching and discuss it apart from the entire gambit of the teachings, practices and history. I know that current LC members find it convenient to attempt to steer the discussion in a direction which diverts attention away from the realities that were, and now are, faced by followers of Witness Lee. So, steer away fellows...but don't expect to have much success around here.
-

No need to steer anything.... just offer an alternative explanation for the outer darkness. Aron, can’t.

Somebody step up.

Maybe some think it doesn’t apply to believers and that it is a picture of hell... or maybe some believe it’s just a story and we shouldn’t make too much of it, maybe some are convinced that when the believer stands before the Lord He will judge them but then intervene and rescue them because of His shed blood and grace. Maybe some just mentally clip that part out of their Bible. I really don’t know how members in this forum interpret this scripture,, except StG and his three excellent points, Evangelical by his detailed explanations, and perhaps Trapped who seems to accept the outer darkness teaching but disagrees with how it was applied.

Other than that what we have so far is just nay saying... no alternatives. I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

If not during the millennial reign of Christ, then when does the outer darkness occur?

Have you not read scripture? Read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Does this occur in the millennial reign of Christ? "In Hades he was in torment"; Luke 16:23. And "You are in agony"; Luke 16:25. When did this occur?

And who says the "many lashes" and "few lashes" (Luke 12) have to occur in the millennial kingdom, and/or last the duration? We simply don't know. Why go beyond scripture? Why the dogma based on personal interpretation? Is that the basis for open and mutually profitable fellowship, or is that going to convict the unbelievers? Or, rather is it the basis of control and manipulation of believers? Seems the latter, to me. And it fits with what we know of the LSM - many witnesses have attested to this group's ways.

It's enough to make the point that we're responsible. It's a point worth making. Why clutter teaching with speculation? It isn't profitable, unless you want control.

The Bible does talk of "overcomers". But in the hypersubjective world of the LC a word means whatever the Guru wants it to mean today. Same as otherwise ordinary words like "proper", and being "vital", and "enjoyment" . . . initially it seems like a normal word, even tied to a verse or two, but when you try to grab hold, it's tied to nothing at all, and is a completely subjective interpretation from "God's oracle".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

Drake

Outer darkness is undeniably unattractive to any and all human life, or otherwise. It sounds bad but not as bad as hell.

However, I doubt loyalty to Lee's movement is the standard by which it's determined who goes there.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I’m ready to discuss an alternative explanation. Let’s hear it.

I've repeatedly given you Hebrews 3 and 1 Cor 15 referencing the Exodus, and written to Christian believers. Why no response? I thought you were ready to discuss? Neither infers a thousand-year torment.

Moses fell in the wilderness, due to disobedience. Is he going to be in torment for 1,000 years after the rapture? If so, why was he seen with Jesus Christ on the mountain of transfiguration, in the gospels.

Perhaps Lee covered this all in detail; if so, please bring it up and let's see it. And while you're at it, let's consider why going beyond scripture is profitable for the believers' walk. I must have missed that in our discussion thus far.

For example, if 2,000,000 Israelites crossed the Red Sea but only two of them (Caleb and Joshua) made it across the Jordan River, does that mean that only 1 Christian in every million "makes it" into the kingdom reward? The other 999,999 get a thousand years of anguish? Or is that reading too much into the text; you know, going beyond what's actually been written?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Have you not read scripture? Read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Does this occur in the millennial reign of Christ? "In Hades he was in torment"; Luke 16:23. And "You are in agony"; Luke 16:25. When did this occur?.

First, that is not a parable as you say.... its important to know the difference else you will continue to misapply the scripture. No wonder you toss your hands up and declare "we simply don't know". I'm not doubting that you don't know... but that does not mean it is not knowable.... Let's have a closer look.

This is not a future event in the millennial reign... this is an actual occurrence at that time, and the Lord knew of it, and it occurred, apparently, before the Lord rose from the dead as Abraham indicated (v30-31). Therefore, what we know from this case is that Hades, the abode of the dead, has two parts... the pleasant part in the "bosom of Abraham", a pleasant place for His saved people like Abraham, Lazarus, and the saved saints .... and then there is a section of torment for that rich man and all the perished sinners. That is plain from the text. There is no reading into it, no need to read into it, and certainly not to be confounded with the outer darkness at the time of the millennial reign of Christ.

For a brief moment I thought that is where you were going with it.... a flash of insight...a rational comparison.... but alas, rather than complete the task, you went off on your paranoid talking points about "control and manipulation" digging in head first. Aron, either it is truth or not... like eternal torment in the lake of fire. People may not want to hear about an eternity in lake of fire, and some preachers may overuse it to keep rowdy whipper snappers like young Harold in line... but that does not change the fact that there is a lake of fire and a place of eternal torment.

At any point you should feel free to explain from the scriptures what the outer darkness is, when it occurs, and any other particulars as we have offered already. No pressure aron... take your time....I accept your self-assessment.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Outer darkness is undeniably unattractive to any and all human life, or otherwise. It sounds bad but not as bad as hell.

However, I doubt loyalty to Lee's movement is the standard by which it's determined who goes there.

True, its prudent to want to avoid it. ....and the standard is found in the sum of the parables, epistles, the book of Revelation, and the entirety of the Word of God.

Though not scripture, I believe StG's three point declaration is worthy of affirmation.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

No need to steer anything.... just offer an alternative explanation for the outer darkness. Aron, can’t.

Well as far as I know aron hasn't claimed to be the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth. Nor does he have a bunch of groupies running around calling him "The Acting God" or "The One Minister with the One Ministry for The Age". And I don't believe he has started his own religion in which his followers must follow his person and work to a T or be sentenced to 1,000 years of weeping and gnashing of teeth in Outer Darkness (my, my, how ever are they going to catch up reading that huge backlog of Life Studies, Lee Outlines and HWMRs in total darkness?)

So in the meantime I imagine aron might do what most considerate, reasonable Christians do when it comes to researching and learning about the proper understandings and interpretations of such deep theological matters - he will turn to the plethora of educated and learned men that the Lord has provided to the Body of Christ for the proper interpretations. They may vary in their interpretations, but most will be backing them up with knowledge of different types and applications of theology, with knowledge of the original languages, and the historical understandings and interpretations of other biblical scholars throughout the ages. What he won't be doing is turning to the uneducated guesses and willy-nilly, make-it-up-as-he-went-along "theology" of Witness Lee.

So if aron feels like it, or wants to take the time, maybe he or someone else here will indulge your challenge. Of course it won't matter in the end. You don't care what anyone has to say about anything unless their first name is Watchman or Witness. Taking the time to give you the orthodox teachings regarding anything is an exercise in futility. You have a one track train, and it only makes one stop - Lee Central Station.
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

First, that is not a parable as you say.... its important to know the difference else you will continue to misapply the scripture. No wonder you toss your hands up and declare "we simply don't know". I'm not doubting that you don't know... but that does not mean it is not knowable.... Let's have a closer look.

This is not a future event in the millennial reign... this is an actual occurrence at that time, and the Lord knew of it, and it occurred, apparently, before the Lord rose from the dead as Abraham indicated (v30-31). Therefore, what we know from this case is that Hades, the abode of the dead, has two parts... the pleasant part in the "bosom of Abraham", a pleasant place for His saved people like Abraham, Lazarus, and the saved saints .... and then there is a section of torment for that rich man and all the perished sinners. That is plain from the text. There is no reading into it, no need to read into it, and certainly not to be confounded with the outer darkness at the time of the millennial reign of Christ.

So the "pleasant section of Hades" is a holding place where some of the dead wait for a thousand years of torment? Please explain. I don't recall the parable where Lee finds the answer inferred.

And I'm still waiting to hear about Moses. Do go on.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

maybe he or someone else here will indulge your challenge.
-

I challenge brother Drake to present his take on outer darkness. If he has already, may he please repeat it.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I've repeatedly given you Hebrews 3 and 1 Cor 15 referencing the Exodus, and written to Christian believers. Why no response? I thought you were ready to discuss? Neither infers a thousand-year torment.

Right... Hebrews says that they did not enter into His "rest" and I Cor 15 says they served as examples for us being strewn along in the wilderness.

So, please tell us your version of what entering into His rest mean? And then what does not entering into His rest mean?

"Stark and sober" indeed.... so we should dive into it.

thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Right... Hebrews says that they did not enter into His "rest" and I Cor 15 says they served as examples for us being strewn along in the wilderness.

So, please tell us your version of what entering into His rest mean? And then what does not entering into His rest mean?

"Stark and sober" indeed.... so we should dive into it.

thanks
Drake

I don't know - Moses? Please, go ahead. We are waiting. I am, anyway.

My version is this: God loves us, so much that He sent His Son. We might believe into him, Jesus the Messiah, and have eternal life.

Now, how come Moses didn't enter into the rest, but is with Christ on the Mountain? Should I ignore this in my theology-building? You seem to want to. Why - because your teacher did?

There's a danger in gross oversimplification, and LSM is Exhibit A. You want me to be Exhibit B? Okay, how about "Love God and love your neighbour"?

You want responsibility, and consequence? How about, "What you do to others will be done to you"? That's not good enough for you? Why not?

Why follow someone who goes beyond what is written? How does this "closely follow the apostles teaching"? How come Witness Lee got to tease 'truths' out of thin air while the rest were told, "Don't have an opinion"?

It's clear in the NT, both in gospel and epistle, that there's consequence for disobedience. Nobody here on this forum has suggested otherwise.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So in the meantime I imagine aron might do what most considerate, reasonable Christians do when it comes to researching and learning about the proper understandings and interpretations of such deep theological matters - he will turn to the plethora of educated and learned men that the Lord has provided to the Body of Christ for the proper interpretations. They may vary in their interpretations, but most will be backing them up with knowledge of different types and applications of theology, with knowledge of the original languages, and the historical understandings and interpretations of other biblical scholars throughout the ages. What he won't be doing is turning to the uneducated guesses and willy-nilly, make-it-up-as-he-went-along "theology" of Witness Lee. -

That is terrific!

Aron, this is great. Now you can demonstrate once and for all, just how that "uneducated" China-man stacks up against "educated and learned men". Can't wait to see the knowledge of different types and applications of theology, original languages, and historical understandings and interpretations throughout the ages. All good stuff.

So, I'm here, pen in hand and brand spankin new spiral notebook. You won't mind if I ask questions and raise points of clarification? ok, good.. didn't think a reasonable and considerate christian such as yourself would mind.

So, exactly what did those scholars throughout the ages say about the outer darkness?

The podium is yours.

Thanks much,
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Now, how come Moses didn't enter into the rest, but is with Christ on the Mountain? Should I ignore this in my theology-building? You seem to want to. Why - because your teacher did?

Ignore it?

Oh , no. Lean into it.

This is as good a starting point as any really per my last post. What do learned men throughout the ages say about it?

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, exactly what did those scholars throughout the ages say about the outer darkness?

The podium is yours.

Interesting how suddenly you don't want to discuss Lee's theology.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ignore it?

Oh , no. Lean into it.

This is as good a starting point as any really per my last post. What do learned men throughout the ages say about it?

Thanks
Drake

I don't know. Did Lee ignore this question, or did he mention it? Perhaps learned men are smart enough to avoid unfounded speculation, and if they project unproven hypothesis they label it as such, and not "recovered truth".

My own take is this - where the Bible is silent we should exercise caution. Usually reticence is the watchword. Otherwise you end up looking kinda dumb.

I don't have an answer on Moses, btw. Do you? No footnotes to offer?

[Sons to Glory!]

Here's something I quoted earlier that I now have a comment on. (I'm reading some of Hoyt's book on the subject of the Bema and also a book by Lutzer on the same. Both books published recently)

THREE VIEWS OF THE BEMA from Samuel L. Hoyt's "The Judgment Seat of Christ: A Biblical and Theological Study"

1. Some Bible teachers view the judgment seat as a place of intense sorrow, a place of terror, and a place where Christ display all the believer’s sins (or at least those unconfessed) before the entire resurrected and raptured church. Some go even further by stating that Christians must experience some sort of suffering for their sins at the time of this examination.

2. At the other end of the spectrum another group, which holds to the same eschatological chronology, views this event as an awards ceremony. Awards are handed out to every Christian. The result of this judgment will be that each Christian will be grateful for the reward which he receives, and he will have little or no shame.

3. Other Bible teachers espouse a mediating position. They maintain the seriousness of the examination and yet emphasize the commendation aspect of the judgment seat. They emphasize the importance and necessity of faithful living today but reject any thought of forensic punishment at the Bema. Emphasis is placed on the fact that each Christian must give an account of his life before the omniscient and holy Christ. All that was done through the energy of the flesh will be regarded as worthless for reward, while all that was done in the power of the Holy Spirit will be graciously rewarded. Those who hold this view believe that the Christian will stand glorified before Christ without his old sin nature. He will, likewise, be without guilt because he has been declared righteous. There will be no need for forensic punishment, for Christ has forever borne all of God’s wrath toward the believer’s sins.

I would say that WL definitely tended to go with #1, with the last sentence being quite applicable in his teachings. Emphasis on fear. (WL might not have taught that sins were on display at the Bema though.)

What I see is more in line with #3, that is, rewards (gold, silver, stone) but also the realization of a loss of rewards (wood, hay, stubble) There will be much joy to go around, but also sorrow that individual believers weren't faithful in more things. I've also wondered if we will see clearly all the opportunities lost - lost opportunities to share Christ, therefore the kingdom work suffered . . . and also possibly the angst that others didn't come to Christ through us.

One author likens the scene to a commencement ceremony. There is great corporate joy for what has been accomplished, but also sorrow that more wasn't done. This author says the sorrow will be short-lived and no need for "forensic" (criminal investigation) judgement. However, tell that to the unfaithful servant who was cast into outer darkness! (but who knows how long that is for?! Perhaps just for the wedding feast? and how long is that . . . ?)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I don't know. Did Lee ignore this question, or did he mention it? Perhaps learned men are smart enough to avoid unfounded speculation, and if they project unproven hypothesis they label it as such, and not "recovered truth".

My own take is this - where the Bible is silent we should exercise caution. Usually reticence is the watchword. Otherwise you end up looking kinda dumb.

I don't have an answer on Moses, btw. Do you? No footnotes to offer?

That's ok, I'm sure we all are missing stuff....... what do the learned and educated men have to say about it?

Let's start there.

thanks
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Here's something I quoted earlier that I now have a comment on. (I'm reading some of Hoyt's book on the subject of the Bema and also a book by Lutzer on the same. Both books published recently)

I would say that WL definitely tended to go with #1, with the last sentence being quite applicable in his teachings. Emphasis on fear. (WL might not have taught that sins were on display at the Bema though.)

What I see is more in line with #3, that is, rewards (gold, silver, stone) but also the realization of a loss of rewards (wood, hay, stubble) There will be much joy to go around, but also sorrow that individual believers weren't faithful in more things. I've also wondered if we will see clearly all the opportunities lost - lost opportunities to share Christ, therefore the kingdom work suffered . . . and also possibly the angst that others didn't come to Christ through us.. . ?)

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations (Revelation 2:26-27) a clear reference to the time the Lord Jesus rules on the earth for 1000 years.

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If God were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be here chatting about it.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations. (Revelation 2:26-27)

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If He were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be there chatting about it.

Drake

Okay, sounds right. But I do think these days the reality of the Bema is coming out more and more in Christian writings (although I don't hear it spoken much). As said, the two books I mentioned were both published in the last few years. Others are also starting to share more about Bema accountability including Chuck Missler. It's about time and we all need it!

In our business, we get paid to help others be accountable to their own goals. While reaching the goal itself is certainly an incentive, of course not attaining it is a loss. Benefits to be enjoyed; losses to be avoided. Kind of like double motivation, eh?

I was talking to a brother about this yesterday and it occurred to me that in Matthew 25 we are shown two positive instances of faithful servants, and just one instance of what happened with the unfaithful servant. I don't think that was written happenstance (of course not!) - God wants us to be doubly encouraged as He is the God of all encouragement! But He also want's us to be fully aware of the consequences of not gaining the prize.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Interesting how suddenly you don't want to discuss Lee's theology.

It's amazing how arrogant our beloved Drake becomes when the teachings of his favorite MOTA get challenged.

Drake, does it not trouble you upon learning of all the unrighteousness at LSM? Why would all the Apostles, knowing that they were teaching and writing of the New Covenant centered on the life, person, work, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, carefully guard their hearts and their living from unrighteousness? They were "apostles" after all, why should they even care if they fleeced the saints, covered up sins, smeared other ministers, hired family who molested the sisters, etc?

Paul even boasted of a conscience void of all offense, while Witness Lee just boasted in offenses.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

That's ok, I'm sure we all are missing stuff...

Really? Then why 'one publication' edict?

It seems you don't like my line of questioning & so pretend not to 'get it' - rather you do get it & would prefer to change the subject post-haste.

I'm surprised you didn't try the "just pray about it" dodge, which LSM operatives usually fall back on when you begin to critically examine the contents of their theology. You know, the "you just need the vision" &c.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, sounds right. But I do think these days the reality of the Bema is coming out more and more in Christian writings (although I don't hear it spoken much). As said, the two books I mentioned were both published in the last few years. Others are also starting to share more about Bema accountability including Chuck Missler. It's about time and we all need it!

In our business, we get paid to help others be accountable to their own goals. While reaching the goal itself is certainly an incentive, of course not attaining it is a loss. Benefits to be enjoyed; losses to be avoided. Kind of like double motivation, eh?

I was talking to a brother about this yesterday and it occurred to me that in Matthew 25 we are shown two positive instances of faithful servants, and just one instance of what happened with the unfaithful servant. I don't think that was written happenstance (of course not!) - God wants us to be doubly encouraged as He is the God of all encouragement! But He also want's us to be fully aware of the consequences of not gaining the prize.

Spot on.

The parable of the virgins in Matthew 25 is another good illustration of this.... all were virgins... some made it into the wedding feast... and some didn't.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear..

Sorry, this is not true at all. I'll give one instance to confirm.

Apostle Paul writes to the Corinthians that they are members one of another, "many members but one body." He reproves them for how they have treated one another. His entire epistle expounds on this. Christians today also treasure the Lord's prayer, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This theology is ingrained by ministers into the entire body of Christ. It is quite evident every where I visit.

Witness Lee altered this message deceptively as his power grew. Instead he taught "many churches but one body" referring to his ministry. Rather than loving, forgiving, and serving the brothers and sisters besides us, Lee twisted the emphasis to how was your relationship with the ministry. Thus brothers fought with brothers during the New Way over who was more "one with the ministry." Those workers who were not absolutely loyal to Lee, even to the point of ship-wrecking their own consciences, were discarded, quarantined, and slandered by Lee and his cadre of minions.

So don't tell me about forgiveness, loving the brothers, and treating them according to God. That's why I left your little club.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Really? Then why 'one publication' edict?

It seems you don't like my line of questioning & so pretend not to 'get it' - rather you do get it & would prefer to change the subject post-haste.

I'm surprised you didn't try the "just pray about it" dodge, which LSM operatives usually fall back on when you begin to critically examine the contents of their theology. You know, the "you just need the vision" &c.

Sorry aron....

I didn't answer your question about Moses because I don't think it is relevant... though I like the thought-provoking angle to your question.... but if you present the point of view of learned and educated men on this topic I will pay attention to what they have to say. Maybe they are silent or maybe the light will shine.. and since I would be just repeating the point of view of an uneducated China-man then I'm certain it is of little or no worth to you anyway.

So, please.. enlighten us about Moses not entering the Good Land but showing up on Mount Hermon with Jesus... what do they say about that?

Drake

[aron]

The topic was on outer darkness. The question was asked, Where in the Bible does it show defeated believers going into punishment for 1,000 years? The LSM answer was, The whole Bible shows this.

So we began to use the whole Bible. Revelations doesn't say anything about the 1,000 years in outer darkness. Nor did the epistles. Nor did the gospels. Instead, we heard, it was a pastiche, put together by an amateur theologian.

Okay, so let's critically examine it. . . but instead of answers, we got, Who have you got who's done better?

But who has to speculate 'better'?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

The topic was on outer darkness. The question was asked, Where in the Bible does it show defeated believers going into punishment for 1,000 years? The LSM answer was, The whole Bible shows this.

So we began to use the whole Bible. Revelations doesn't say anything about the 1,000 years in outer darkness. '

Aron,

There are several erroneous statements in your post. First, to my knowledge you were challenged by Drake and Evangelical ... not LSM.

Secondly, I never said “the whole Bible shows this”... I said the topic of outer darkness and the judgement, and the millennial reign of Christ is covered mainly in the parables related to the kingdom in Matthew a book that is kingdom centered, some of the relevant verses in the epistles concerning judgement of the believers and the book of Revelation. I said this to open the aperture of what a Brother Lee taught in its entirety vs, your selective and narrow scope of using only some verses in Revelation.

Which brings us to the third erroneous statement.....that “we began to use the whole Bible” which you did not and you insisted that since the book of Revelation is the only place that mentions “1000 years” then I must explain what Brother Lee taught only from that book and only using footnotes. A ridiculous notion in almost every way like the nice Muslim who insisted I must prove that Jesus is God only using the red letters.

Fourth, it is the book of Revelation, not “Revelations”. Singular, in that the entire book is the revelation of the Person Jesus Christ. You probably knew that so don’t let your spell check get the best of you there as it often does me.

But, let’s move on to what your scholars have to say about it.. that will be most interesting.

Thanks
Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

Furthermore, this thread is about the outer darkness...and to StGs question about the duration of the punishment he has received two explanations... one from me on coming out after the “last farthing” has been paid and Evangelicals on the severity... number of lashes. Both of those explanations are based on the same assumption that *(1) there is an outer darkness, (2) it happens during the 1000 millennial reign of Christ, (3) it is a place of punishment to the believers who do not overcome, (4) the Lord will make the judgement, and (5) it will last no longer than the end of the 1000 millennial reign of Christ.

If not during the millennial reign of Christ, then when does the outer darkness occur? Do share.

Drake

(*numbers added by ALB)

Drake,

That's quite a number of assumptions. Can you share with us how did your validate each of them, please?

Well, may be except (1) which was explicitly mentioned in Matthew and (4) which I believe we all agree.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I think your have misread the bible again because of your own preconception. Please check 1 Cor 3:13. The fire is a test, not punishment.

You've missed the point too busy trying to sound smart.

Yes the fire is a test, but it then describes what happens to those who fail the test.

They "suffer loss" - that's a kind of punishment.

They are still saved - so the punishment is temporary.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Drake,

That's quite a number of assumptions. Can you share with us how did your validate each of them, please?

Well, may be except (1) which was explicitly mentioned in Matthew and (4) which I believe we all agree.

Hi alb,

I have provided my view on those points. Have a look at what I already stated, provide your point of view, and if there is something to discuss we can pick it up from there.

Thanks
Drake

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

A "correlation" and an "inference". Objectively speaking, an interpretation. Not 'truth'. Certainly not scripture. Every interpretation should be tested, if it is of the imagination (colored by ignorance, bias, and self- interest) or if it were truly of God and worthy of guiding the assembly.

To be fair, Drake said it was a construction of the human mind. To repeat, I believe this mind was not led by the Holy Spirit, but was rather at a point in religious history, and was struggling thru a Protestant dilemma (OSAS &c). Not the first to do so.

There is a reason James said, "Do not be many teachers". The hermeneutical world of LSM is case in point. (Ja 3:1) It reminds me nothing so much as the story of the old lady who swallowed the fly. But of course, that is inference. A correlation perceived by my human mind.

Hope that helps.

Interpretation would have been a better choice of word than imagination.

The thought of unicorns and rainbows while reading a parable is an imagination. Comparing two or more parables and then drawing a conclusion is correlation.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You've missed the point too busy trying to sound smart.

Yes the fire is a test, but it then describes what happens to those who fail the test.

They "suffer loss" - that's a kind of punishment.

They are still saved - so the punishment is temporary.

What is the loss?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Perhaps in seeking an explanation for tragic events one gravitates towards those that include purpose because the purely random or incidental seems otherwise senseless. I don’t know, but maybe we as humans want assurance that a similar random event of fate won’t also befall us so a reason or a cause is needed. The scripture that comes to mind is the man blind from his birth.. the people thought that maybe he or his parents sinned... but the Lord said it was so the works of God might be manifest.

My point is this, the Lord may act severely toward those who oppose His interests as with Pharoah, Herod, and yet sometimes He chastises His own harshly, or as StG prefers, firmly. Those that died in the wilderness probably consider it a 10 on the harsh scale. Moses was excluded from entering the good land after all that transpired because of one incident.... where he misrepresented God before the people. However, I do not believe that God is walking around with a stick to whack us.... rather, He wants us to enter the kingdom richly and has made all provision for us to do so. Yet, servants then are cast into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. That is a future matter, yet in this life God sends rain to the just and the unjust. I believe your testimony and the affect it had on you..... but it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day. Your experience, and that of others like it seems to issue primarily from the category of the man who was blind from birth. God may intervene as He pleases and we have to allow for that... but it is not a teaching used to subjugate and control the members of His Body. His ruling us is primarily by feeding us.

Drake

Drake,

Thanks for your response.

The first thing to note is that, for my part, my post was really intended to exist within the confines of the fear-based "don't leave the LC or else" side topic that popped up, rather than within the larger topic of Outer Darkness in this thread. So your note that "it is not a teaching in the genre of warnings as is the teaching on outer darkness which is a warning for that future judgement day" is true, and I never meant to represent it as such. My bad if it came across that way.

As a fellow human I certainly understand your point about wanting assurance that the fate that befalls someone else won't also befall us. I do this myself constantly when I hear the news....if someone gets murdered, I comfort myself with the fact that it was done on the street at 2am, which is somewhere I will never be. If someone dies in a house fire, I reassure myself that that won't happen to me because they didn't have a fire extinguisher and I do, etc, etc. I assume many people do this, possibly often without thinking, as a coping mechanism to get through each day when there are so many terrible things going on around us. That's fine, but most of us are also not on the podium representing themselves as God's speaking on this earth and the only ones who have the high truths. When ones in that position ascribe to God's punishment events in people's lives that have nothing to do with God's punishment, an unhealthy and warped view of God and what He wants will inevitably result.

I'm struggling a little with the connection you made with your comment about a man being blind from his birth so that the works of God may be made manifest. To me that describes suffering that befalls a human, explicitly stated not as the consequence of an act of sin, that the Lord uses to glorify Himself, with the result (at least in John 9:1-12 that you alluded to) being positive for that person in their human life and a glory to God. On the other hand, the situations I mentioned were passed off as suffering/death as a direct consequence of an act of "sin" (leaving the LC) that was represented as the Lord's punishment upon that person. These are two very different things, but I may be missing something you intended to convey.

God's teaching is not used to control and subjugate members of the Body, as you said. Agreed! But the teaching of men within the LC was. And it was very effective and very damaging.

Trapped

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

What is the loss?

Loss of the works

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm struggling a little with the connection you made with your comment about a man being blind from his birth so that the works of God may be made manifest. To me that describes suffering that befalls a human, explicitly stated not as the consequence of an act of sin, that the Lord uses to glorify Himself, with the result (at least in John 9:1-12 that you alluded to) being positive for that person in their human life and a glory to God. On the other hand, the situations I mentioned were passed off as suffering/death as a direct consequence of an act of "sin" (leaving the LC) that was represented as the Lord's punishment upon that person. These are two very different things, but I may be missing something you intended to convey

I’ll clarify Trapped..... Concerning the man blind from birth and the brother who leaves the Lord’s Recovery and meets with some tragedy ..... my view was that as the man was not born blind because of sin, in like manner the brothers death was not a result of the sin of leaving the Lord’s Recovery... because I don’t believe it is a sin to leave the Lord’s Recovery and I never heard anyone teach it that way either.

Of course you rightly point out that the condition of the man born blind was to glorify God .. i was not trying to convey anything on that aspect regarding the tragedy that befalls a brother.

Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Loss of the works

Weren't the works already lost in the burn test?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Weren't the works already lost in the burn test?

That's right, and the man himself was saved.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's right, and the man himself was saved.

So in your opinion, how long does this burn test last? Is this the 1,000 years of outer darkness?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

So in your opinion, how long does this burn test last? Is this the 1,000 years of outer darkness?

No, they are different tests, but it shows that punishment for believers is not eternal. If outer darkness is eternal, then we cannot believe in eternal security.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, they are different tests, but it shows that punishment for believers is not eternal. If outer darkness is eternal, then we cannot believe in eternal security.

How do we know the ones cast out to outer darkness are believers? Just because of the term "servant"?

[aron]

Hebrews 3 and 1 Corinthians 10 show us a journey with a finish line. A coming promised rest. We should press on until the journey is over. This notion seems widespread in Christian faith, not confined to the LSM (tho I appreciate their emphasis).

But I find a "thousand year finishing school" to be unsatisfactory because Moses "didn't make it" yet he is with Christ on the Mountain in glory, in the gospels. Maybe you give him a pass but I don't; he's the same as the rest of us.

My personal theology is "we see Jesus" a la Hebrews 2:8. He is the overcomer. Getting lost in subjective introspection is a house of mirrors.

The thief on the cross was promised to be with Jesus in Paradise. He never even got baptized! How could he get "mature"? And the story of Lazarus and the rich man is relevant. You think the first-century audience would discount it because "it's not a parable"?

And how pleasant is the "pleasant section of Hades" when you have a thousand years of torment waiting?

No, I suspect that one immediately deals with the consequences of one's actions. I know life is like that - why should the afterlife be different? The criminal immediately deals with the consequence of the crime - there is flight, hiding, lies and so forth.

Jesus made it across the finish line. Keep your eyes on Him. Never look away.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Interpretation would have been a better choice of word than imagination.

The thought of unicorns and rainbows while reading a parable is an imagination. Comparing two or more parables and then drawing a conclusion is correlation.

I drew on the wider conversation to use the word "imagination". Psalm 18 says, " He [the Father] rescued me [the Christ] because He [the Father] delighted in me [the Christ]." We have ample correlation in the NT that the Father delighted in the Son.

Yet Lee told us that this was the natural and fallen concept of the sinner David.

The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews said, "We see Jesus" after extensive citation of the psalms. (2:8) Yet Lee taught his disciples to ignore the word of scripture.

Drake said that Moses' case doesn't interest him. Probably because it doesn't help his position. He's more interested in his position than the bible.

My point here has been that the "thousand years in finishing school" concept is an anachronism, designed to address the arguments of history (Calvinism/Arminianism). In some sense, it is preferable. And it helped Nee. But in another sense, that is like saying third grade is preferable to first grade - yeah, but so what? It doesn't help me. There is no indication that anyone in the 1st century used these interpretations. They come from the minds (imaginations) of Nee and Lee. The fact that Drake ignored Moses, and Lazarus and the rich man, shows what it takes to maintain this teaching. He's holding onto the spiritual equivalent of unicorns and rainbows.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

It seems you don't like my line of questioning & so pretend not to 'get it' - rather you do get it & would prefer to change the subject post-haste.

I'm surprised you didn't try the "just pray about it" dodge, which LSM operatives usually fall back on when you begin to critically examine the contents of their theology; the "you just need the vision" &c.

Oh, and don't forget the "how dare you slander God's chosen vessel" schtick. Anything to avoid addressing the substance of the issue at hand.

Suppose you go to a conference of the LSM. After the message, everyone stands and testifies of their "enjoyment" of the "rich ministry". But suppose someone actually has an issue, and raises it? There might be some attempt to paper over the perceived discrepancy. But ultimately there is the fallback to subjectivism: "get out of your mind, brother" or some such. The questioner is accused of being "dark" &c.

Witness Lee was the spiritual equivalent of PT Barnum. There were enough suckers out there that he and his progeny could make a living. But his theology in toto has little value, of itself. At best, it's a small part of the larger conversation. Yes, there are consequences for our actions. But Jesus is the consequence of God's saving love. Today he calls us - hear his voice. The consequences of his actions are eternal life to all who believe. This saving call should consume our attentions - not the imaginariums of spiritual hucksters.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Drake said that Moses' case doesn't interest him. Probably because it doesn't help his position. He's more interested in his position than the bible........The fact that Drake ignored Moses, and Lazarus and the rich man, shows what it takes to maintain this teaching. He's holding onto the spiritual equivalent of unicorns and rainbows.

First, I did not ignore the discussion about Lazarus, rather, I explained it and provided clarity to your erroneous statement that it was a parable.

Aron, why do you keep doing mischaracterizing what I say? It’s a waste of your, mine, and everyone’s time. I mean it’s not like it’s something I said last week, last month, or last year that is easily forgotten..... you keep mischaracterizing my posts that are still hot off the press..... anyone can read it for themselves and see you are making stuff up. In the future, if you are going to do a “Drake said...” I ask you to provide the exact quote along with it so everyone can see what you are talking about.

If you are so imprecise with my simple posts how are you ever going to explain a more complex analysis from learned and educated men, using the original languages, showing different types and applications of theology, bringing in the views of scholars throughout history?

By the way, when does that start? Are you up for the task?

Which brings us to Moses. I did not ignore Moses as you claim above, I said I did not see the relevance of Moses in the context of a discussion on outer darkness and then I encouraged you to start your compelling presentation with him if you prefer. Afterall, you introduced him so please show us how he fits into the outer darkness schematic.

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Actually I too quickly dismissed the "ask the experts" question, seeing it as a dodge to get off the subject of the glaring lacks in the LSM hermeneutical programmme.

But while we're on the subject, there's a useful field of scholarship expanding knowledge of the conversation occurring around the time that Jesus and his disciples lived, taught, and wrote. It is called, roughly "Second Temple Studies". What did an apostle mean when he wrote something? What did shared meanings did a parable convey? What imagery was suggested by a turn of phrase?

We don't know much of what Jesus himself believed, other than that he was the Messiah, a rabbi (teacher), the King of Israel, Savior of the World, and Son of God. He repeatedly taught that he would suffer, be rejected, killed by men, and rise on the third day to glory. Beyond that, we should be cautious. . . the details of "outer darkness" or some other phrase are usually obscure.

These experts, though they understand Hebrew, and Greek, don't presume to know the meaning of every single phrase. They're usually humble in their assessments. "This could mean" such-and-such, not "this is the recovered truth". A little humility and reticence seem in order, and goes a long way. And they allow differences of interpretation to exist, and mutual uncertainty, instead of resorting to calling each other "dark" and "ambitious" and "divisive". It's rather refreshing, really. . . quite, um, Christian, even.

Devorah Dimant
John J. Collins
Annette Yoshiko Reed
James C. VanderKam
Peter W. Flint
Esther Chazon
Carol A. Newsom
Josef T Milik
John M. Allegro
Lawrence H. Schiffman
Gabriel Boccaccini
Yisrael Yadin
James H. Charlesworth
Emile Puech
Emanuel Tov

This is a good list to start. There are a lot more. Happy trails. See you at the finish line, whenever that may be.

(And don't go beyond what is written).

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

First, I did not ignore the discussion about Lazarus, rather, I explained it and provided clarity to your erroneous statement that it was a parable.

Aron, why do you keep doing mischaracterizing what I say? It’s a waste of your, mine, and everyone’s time. I mean it’s not like it’s something I said last week, last month, or last year that is easily forgotten..... you keep mischaracterizing my posts that are still hot off the press..... anyone can read it for themselves and see you are making stuff up. In the future, if you are going to do a “Drake said...” I ask you to provide the exact quote along with it so everyone can see what you are talking about.

If you are so imprecise with my simple posts how are you ever going to explain a more complex analysis from learned and educated men, using the original languages, showing different types and applications of theology, bringing in the views of scholars throughout history?

By the way, when does that start? Are you up for the task?

Which brings us to Moses. I did not ignore Moses as you claim above, I said I did not see the relevance of Moses in the context of a discussion on outer darkness and then I encouraged you to start your compelling presentation with him if you prefer. Afterall, you introduced him so please show us how he fits into the outer darkness schematic.

Thanks
Drake

I liked "imaginariums of spiritual hucksters."

Thanks
Harold

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I liked "imaginariums of spiritual hucksters."

Thanks
Harold

But aron said that, not Drake.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But aron said that, not Drake.

I know. I'm not sure bro Drake could recognized a spiritual huckster.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

How do we know the ones cast out to outer darkness are believers? Just because of the term "servant"?

I don't know that anyone answered this, did they?

If you are asking regarding the three servants Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25, then yes, these are those who all knew the Lord. In verse 14 it says that the master called his own to him and they were all given talents. They were all aware that their master has gone away and would return. Two are faithful and show a profit to return to their master, and they are thereby praised and rewarded. The third servant had a skewed view of his master, feared him and was unfaithful. He received a rebuke, his portion was taken away, and he was cast into outer darkness.

How long was the unfaithful servant in outer darkness? It doesn't say.

[A little brother]

I am not sure whether I went too far. Like in the Old Testament, Nebuchadnezzar is called the Lord's servant. But he is not one of God's chosen people. So does a servant imply believer even though the Lord uses him?

Another example is Matt 24:45-51, the punishment of the evil slave was:
And will cut him asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

The hypocrites don't sound like believers to me and the evil slave was treated the same.

Also in Luke 12:46,
The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

[Sons to Glory!]

Yes, those are all difficult passages, and thanks for posting them all in one place!

As for that last one, I think it's pretty easy to see it was a believer: He was a slave of the master; there is an element of expectation for his master's return; and his portion is appointed with the unbelievers. Saying that his portion was appointed with unbelievers is a contrast to something, namely he (the slave) IS a believer.

There are those who accept the Lord and go off and do wicked things, and never repent and come back. These would be evil ones. It would be hard to reward these ones anything at all! And would they be hypocrites? I think so,, in that they have received the new life and nature, but are not living in any way according to it.

So there appears to be something the Lord does to these ones that is much more severe than what we think would be appropriate for a believer . . . but He is the righteous judge.

[A little brother]

If the contrast in Luke means the slave is a believer, then the concern would be the believer is treated the same as unbeliever. Could it possibly not just be severity but duration as well?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I am not sure whether I went too far. Like in the Old Testament, Nebuchadnezzar is called the Lord's servant. But he is not one of God's chosen people. So does a servant imply believer even though the Lord uses him?

Have you ever read what incredibly wondrous things Jehovah says about the heathen Cyrus, King of Persia, thru Isaiah in Chapter 45 -- more than a century before it happened?

1.Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed.
2. “I will go before you and level the exalted places, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze [gates of Babylon] and cut through the bars of iron,
3. I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the Lord, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
4. For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
5. I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
6. That people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7. I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
8. “Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it.
9. “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’?
10. Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’ ”
11. Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him: “Ask me of things to come; will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?
12. I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.
13. I have stirred him up in righteousness, and I will make all his ways level; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward,” says the Lord of hosts.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

If the contrast in Luke means the slave is a believer, then the concern would be the believer is treated the same as unbeliever. Could it possibly not just be severity but duration as well?

I think there are far too many places that show that if a person is rebirthed with the new life (they at one point accepted that Christ died for them and Christ's life gets into them), therefore they are in fact God's children, then they won't suffer eternal punishment. They may be really BAD children, but nonetheless His family.

And that's also a good post by Ohio regarding Cyrus, king of Persia - He will have mercy on and chooses whom He pleases!

[A little brother]

Then the question is who is truly rebirthed. I still can't imagine how a regenerated believer truly with God's life in him still act like an unbeliever in the world. I have to take the position that there are only true believers and unbelievers. True (faithful) believers get the reward and unbelievers get the punishment in the end.

There are so many warnings from the apostles to "believers" in the NT. I don't think it is just about missing rewards, it is something much more severe.

I am not saying salvation can be lost, it is more about whether we are truly saved in the first place.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, having escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but having again been entangled in these, they are defeated, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you ever read what incredibly wondrous things Jehovah says about the heathen Cyrus, King of Persia, thru Isaiah in Chapter 45 -- more than a century before it happened?

Yes I have. When I know God can use someone so unexpected (well, may be not so unexpected given it was foretold a century before), it hurts my heart to see people who should be children of God but acting otherwise.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think there are far too many places that show that if a person is rebirthed with the new life (they at one point accepted that Christ died for them and Christ's life gets into them), therefore they are in fact God's children, then they won't suffer eternal punishment. They may be really BAD children, but nonetheless His family.

Right, you may be naughty but you can't be unborn!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Then the question is who is truly rebirthed. I still can't imagine how a regenerated believer truly with God's life in him still act like an unbeliever in the world. I have to take the position that there are only true believers and unbelievers. True (faithful) believers get the reward and unbelievers get the punishment in the end.

There are so many warnings from the apostles to "believers" in the NT. I don't think it is just about missing rewards, it is something much more severe.

I am not saying salvation can be lost, it is more about whether we are truly saved in the first place.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, having escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but having again been entangled in these, they are defeated, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

This verse in 2nd Peter . . . I think if someone is a defeated Christian, then their state actually is worse in this life (than they were before being saved). They have tasted what is true and have rejected it. Therefore nothing remains for them. I actually think I've experienced some of that (haven't we all to some degree?) - the flesh is godless. It doesn't believe in God or any of the things of God. We carry this flesh with us. It's dark. It can sink itself into one heck of a funk, complaining, feeling sorry, woe is me, confusion, etc. We all carry this in our flesh (no good thing dwells there). So if someone went back to living 100% in their flesh, there is no hope . . . no nothing! Might as well just pull the trigger ("Bullet in the brainpan: Squish!" for those Firefly fans) and put it out of its misery. ("The mind of the flesh is death" Romans 8)

However, I don't believe this equates to an eternal loss of salvation. This child (hard to call a "believer") will suffer an incredible loss. So much so that it is hard to imagine the grief, pain and deepest regret - yes, much weeping and gnashing of teeth for all they carelessly threw away and counted as nothing. How long this suffering will last? Don't know, but it's not pretty.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Then the question is who is truly rebirthed. I still can't imagine how a regenerated believer truly with God's life in him still act like an unbeliever in the world. I have to take the position that there are only true believers and unbelievers. True (faithful) believers get the reward and unbelievers get the punishment in the end.

Little Brother, many children of God have acted worse than the unbelievers. Look at what Paul writes about Christians in God's great house (2.20) in II Timothy 3.

I have met some who confessed to being genuinely saved and baptized as children, yet as adults were as prodigals (Luke 15) who cared nothing for God.

There are also some who harbor bitter hatred towards God because of past pains and disappointments.

The lives of God's children are as diverse as His entire creation.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This verse in 2nd Peter . . . I think if someone is a defeated Christian, then their state actually is worse in this life (than they were before being saved). They have tasted what is true and have rejected it. Therefore nothing remains for them. I actually think I've experienced some of that - the flesh is godless. It doesn't believe in God or any of the things of God. We carry this flesh with us. It's dark. It can sink itself into one heck of a funk, complaining, feeling sorry, woe is me, confusion, etc. We all carry this in our flesh (no good thing dwells there). So if someone went back to living 100% in their flesh, there is no hope . . . no nothing! Might as well just pull the trigger ("Bullet in the brainpan: Squish!" for those Firefly fans) and put it out of its misery. ("The mind of the flesh is death" Romans 8)

However, I don't believe this equates to an eternal loss of salvation. This child (hard to call a "believer") will suffer an incredible loss. So much so that it is hard to imagine the grief, pain and deepest regret - yes, much weeping and gnashing of teeth for all they carelessly threw away as nothing. How long this suffering will last? Don't know, but it's not pretty.

Good points.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Little Brother, many children of God have acted worse than the unbelievers. Look at what Paul writes about Christians in God's great house (2.20) in II Timothy 3.

I have met some who confessed to being genuinely saved and baptized as children, yet as adults were as prodigals (Luke 15) who cared nothing for God.

There are also some who harbor bitter hatred towards God because of past pains and disappointments.

The lives of God's children are as diverse as His entire creation.

That why I am not sure what is "genuinely saved" and who are really children of God. I certainly hope myself to be. But somehow I guess I can never be 100% sure until that day.

I can only trust God that He knows who to choose.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

That why I am not sure what is "genuinely saved" and who are really children of God. I certainly hope myself to be. But somehow I guess I can never be 100% sure until that day.

I can only trust God that He knows who to choose.

It's a faith thing (not by sight). Have you called on Him and accepted Him? Have you had His speaking within at any time? Have you experienced any joy related to His promises or in prayer or in fellowship? If you've answered any in the affirmative, then His life is in you.

And if so, then take it by faith regardless of feelings, because His word says you are saved and in God's family!

[Sons to Glory!]

Hey - for anyone interested, I just posted a draft paper I wrote entitled, "Faithful in a Few Things" in another thread here:

Faithful in a Few Things

It was four Word doc pages, so sorry, it's a little long. It regards many of the things around this current discussion. Please let me know what you think, in light of our discussion here.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by A little brother

That why I am not sure what is "genuinely saved" and who are really children of God. I certainly hope myself to be. But somehow I guess I can never be 100% sure until that day.

I can only trust God that He knows who to choose.

Yes bro Little brother, all this talk about outer darkness, Hades, and the lake of fire gives me the heebie-jeebies. Cuz a long time ago I realized that, if it depends on me I'm in trouble.

But it doesn't depend on me. So no worry about outer darkness, or all the rest.

That's why I love the song, Rocka my soul in the bosom of Abraham.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsy-RVnI0U

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

How do we know the ones cast out to outer darkness are believers? Just because of the term "servant"?

They could be tares, is true. A genuine believer would most likely be profitable in even small things which are rewarded (Matthew 25:40). The small things we do without thinking anything of them, are considered by the Lord as being done unto Himself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It's a faith thing (not by sight). Have you called on Him and accepted Him? Have you had His speaking within at any time? Have you experienced any joy related to His promises or in prayer or in fellowship? If you've answered any in the affirmative, then His life is in you.

And if so, then take it by faith regardless of feelings, because His word says you are saved and in God's family!

I agree wholeheartedly. The Lord has promised that if we seek Him with all our heart, we will find Him. Every person on earth owes it to him/herself to do this much. (Jeremiah 29.13; Matt 7.7; Luke 11.9)

Our father of faith Abraham, simply believed God and that became righteousness to him. (Genesis 15.6; Romans 4.3)

The simplest definition of salvation is to become righteous as Abraham, by believing that Jesus Christ died for us to pay our debt to the law, and rose from the dead to give us eternal life.

[aron]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I can only trust God that He knows who to choose.

For me, the answer is simple: God chose Jesus Christ. The NT repeats this refrain over and over. Don't ever take your eyes off God's selection and you'll do fine. "We have the prophetic word made firm" - it is Jesus. There can by definition be none else. The NT is utterly clear on this point.

The danger of the performance-based 'charismatic' experience is that the enemy can distract you to focus on yourself.

"Hey, Ma! Look at me! I'm exercising my spirit!"

Now you become the subject of attention, not Jesus. The self has found a new cloak, labeled "enjoyment" or whatnot.

[Ohio]

Great point. LSMers love to tout their meeting style with all the members "functioning" in the meetings. Yet who has adequately examined the downside of this "performance-based" system? If we must "know them by their fruit," then after all the years, where are all the blessed recipients?"

I was fortunate to be in a region that at least was aware of some of the dangers of these public performances. Cheers and adulation bestowed on young believers is not all good. Seeds of vain glory can also be sown into their hearts, deceiving their growing faith. How easy it has become to fake the real thing and perform for a willing audience. And whoch LC leader dares to suffer backlash for signaling the dangers here?

We have some of these testimonies on this forum. Make no mistake, LSM has damaged many a young faith seed with their programs.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How easy it has become to fake the real thing and perform for a willing audience.

Matthew 6:1,2

"Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward."

The caution applies not only to giving, but to any act: if it gets social reinforcement (warm fuzzies all around) then one may do it for the group approval, assuming this is a one-to-one analog of "gaining Christ". So just go to the right meeting, shout the right phrases, and 'voila'! You're on your way. . .but if the phrases shouted get 'funny' - i.e. they depart more and more from the plain words of the gospel, what to do? All you have is your so-called enjoyment, trusting in your performance. And thus the anxiety and uncertainty.

And the builders of the system have nice income flow, for themselves and even their occasionally 'unspiritual' progeny. "Truly I tell you, they already have their reward." They've used their home-grown theology and transferred subjectivism to build an earthly kingdom.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - for anyone interested, I just posted a draft paper I wrote entitled, "Faithful in a Few Things" in another thread here:

Faithful in a Few Things

It was four Word doc pages, so sorry, it's a little long. It regards many of the things around this current discussion. Please let me know what you think, in light of our discussion here.

StG,

Well said. If you were going to take it to the next level I suggest three extensions of what you started. First, the assurance of our eternal security is based on God’s righteousness.... He has bound Himself to the sacrifice and shed blood of Christ and can never change His mind. He cannot make a claim on two for sin, His Son and us... were He to do that He would be unrighteous. There is a Psalm that says the foundation of His throne is based on righteousness, meaning His ruling in the universe is based on righteousness. Therefore, our eternal salvation is assured because He is righteous and could never do anything uprighteous like demand payment for the same sin twice. If He ever were unrighteous, even in one small matter, like not forgiving a little brother whose sins, each and every one of them, have been washed by the blood of Christ then the foundation of His throne would collapse and the universe would no longer exist as we know it.

Secondly, related to God’s righteousness is reward and punishment for works, deeds, profit, growth, and readiness after becoming a born again child of God. He is righteous in this also in that He has given us everything pertaining to meeting the standards of the reward of the Kingdom and to enter the joy of the Lord. The parable of the talents show that the entrance to the kingdom was based on a doubling of what the Lord had given each servant. To the one that was given 5 talents a total of 10 were returned to Him. Likewise to the one given 2 another 2 were added, so 4. These servants were counted worthy of entering the joy of their Lord. Had the servant given 1 talent doubled what he had been given he too would have been rewarded the same as the other two servants. By this we can see how righteous the Lord is in the matter of reward and punishment. The parable also hints that had the unfaithful servant merely returned interest he would have received something!

Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Alb, if you have read this far I encourage you to read StG’s article. I believe it is the Lords timely provision for you as are replies to you specifically about eternal salvation by other brothers in this thread.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The caution applies not only to giving, but to any act: if it gets social reinforcement (warm fuzzies all around) then one may do it for the group approval, assuming this is a one-to-one analog of "gaining Christ". So just go to the right meeting, shout the right phrases, and 'voila'! You're on your way. . .but if the phrases shouted get 'funny' - i.e. they depart more and more from the plain words of the gospel, what to do? All you have is your so-called enjoyment, trusting in your performance. And thus the anxiety and uncertainty.

Years ago TC, while giving a regional message, had a young rising young star stand up and give a demonstration of public prayer. Young JV told us all how to do it, and then gave a demonstration -- "start out slow, increase speed, short succinct phrases, etc. ... -- all to thunderous "amens" from the audience. It was perhaps the first time I ever considered that public prayer could all be manipulated. Apparently JV was really good at this. I, however, was not that good.

Bottom line is this: Every unique practice and teaching must be tested and proven. Some require the test of time. Some require the test of Christian scholarship. Some require a simple examination with the scriptures. "But ... test all things, hold on to only the good." (I Thess 5.21)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

Well said. If you were going to take it to the next level I suggest three extensions of what you started. First, the assurance of our eternal security is based on God’s righteousness.... He has bound Himself to the sacrifice and shed blood of Christ and can never change His mind. He cannot make a claim on two for sin, His Son and us... were He to do that He would be unrighteous. There is a Psalm that says the foundation of His throne is based on righteousness, meaning His ruling in the universe is based on righteousness. Therefore, our eternal salvation is assured because He is righteous and could never do anything uprighteous like demand payment for the same sin twice. If He ever were unrighteous, even in one small matter, like not forgiving a little brother whose sins, each and every one of them, have been washed by the blood of Christ then the foundation of His throne would collapse and the universe would no longer exist as we know it.

Secondly, related to God’s righteousness is reward and punishment for works, deeds, profit, growth, and readiness after becoming a born again child of God. He is righteous in this also in that He has given us everything pertaining to meeting the standards of the reward of the Kingdom and to enter the joy of the Lord. The parable of the talents show that the entrance to the kingdom was based on a doubling of what the Lord had given each servant. To the one that was given 5 talents a total of 10 were returned to Him. Likewise to the one given 2 another 2 were added, so 4. These servants were counted worthy of entering the joy of their Lord. Had the servant given 1 talent doubled what he had been given he too would have been rewarded the same as the other two servants. By this we can see how righteous the Lord is in the matter of reward and punishment. The parable also hints that had the unfaithful servant merely returned interest he would have received something!

Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Alb, if you have read this far I encourage you to read StG’s article. I believe it is the Lords timely provision for you as are replies to you specifically about eternal salvation by other brothers in this thread.

Drake

Thanks for taking the time to read it and to give some thoughtful feedback! I have given the draft to a number of ones and will see what everyone thinks - I appreciate the suggestions you gave and will consider implementing them. As said, it really was a first draft - it just flowed out during two plane rides I made last week, and is basically the same as it was on the yellow legal pad I used. So I know it very likely needs improved organization, etc.

Did you find the references good enough, or should I add more? - there's a balance in this for the sake of reading simplicity (and length), but I want to be sure the reader knows the pertinent scripture.

[Sons to Glory!]

Hey - in reading this book last night regarding the Bema ("Your Eternal Reward: Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ" by Lutzer) the author conveyed something that hit me. He was talking about the three servants in Matthew 25 and said the unfaithful one was not willing to take a risk with what was entrusted to him by his master. The faithful servants had traded their entrusted talents in the marketplace and had doubled their master's money. The unfaithful one was afraid to take that risk, and hid the talent.

It hit me that this is what the Lord is asking us to do - take a risk with what He has given us! So much of the time I just stay with what is comfortable, not willing to go too far out. If you read the paper I just posted, "Faithful in a Few Things," then you know I have my four basic "few" things I know from the Lord to be faithful in (and I'm pretty comfortable with). But stepping out to do just a little more than that . . . well it seems a little "risky." I had never seen the faithful/unfaithful servants story in that light!

(And of course, this "risk" we know is really no risk at all, and is the very best investment of all!)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for taking the time to read it and to give some thoughtful feedback! I have given the draft to a number of ones and will see what everyone thinks - I appreciate the suggestions you gave and will consider implementing them. As said, it really was a first draft - it just flowed out during two plane rides I made last week, and is basically the same as it was on the yellow legal pad I used. So I know it very likely needs improved organization, etc.

Did you find the references good enough, or should I add more? - there's a balance in this for the sake of reading simplicity (and length), but I want to be sure the reader knows the pertinent scripture.

Hi StG,

I thought the references were good.... I think Psalm 89:14 would help to explain that the righteousness of God is the surety of our salvation and that He is bound by His covenant. God loves us, but He may not like us from time to time. Nevertheless, He must and will honor His own word.

Grace to you
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - in reading this book last night regarding the Bema ("Your Eternal Reward: Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ" by Lutzer) the author conveyed something that hit me. He was talking about the three servants in Matthew 25 and said the unfaithful one was not willing to take a risk with what was entrusted to him by his master. The faithful servants had traded their entrusted talents in the marketplace and had doubled their master's money. The unfaithful one was afraid to take that risk, and hid the talent.

It hit me that this is what the Lord is asking us to do - take a risk with what He has given us! So much of the time I just stay with what is comfortable, not willing to go too far out. If you read the paper I just posted, "Faithful in a Few Things," then you know I have my four basic "few" things I know from the Lord to be faithful in (and I'm pretty comfortable with). But stepping out to do just a little more than that . . . well it seems a little "risky." I had never seen the faithful/unfaithful servants story in that light!

(And of course, this "risk" we know is really no risk at all, and is the very best investment of all!)

Right. The one talented servants may be intimidated or introspective about only having 1 talent... watching the 5 talented one give back 10, or the 2 talented one give back 4... he might be thinking his 1 talent could never return 10 or 4 ... he thinks probably not even 2.... so he buries it. Yet the Lord only asks him to invest what he has received.

I think of it this way.... Billy Graham was a 5 talented member of the Body.... he returned 10 (arguably more than that but to stay within the lines of the parable) ... we could get introspective about that and say "y'know, Brother Billy really understands how to lead people to the Lord... but I never could do what he does so I won't even try to preach the gospel... he more than makes up for my lack". That would be to bury our one talent in the matter of gospel preaching and thereby not fulfilling the great commission. Or in practical service in the church.. or any number of related talents we could be guilty of burying our talent.

There is something more there related to the comment " I knew you were a harsh man".... the Lord did not dismiss the point but rather turned it back on the unfaithful servant. "Knowing I was harsh...". Yet the attitude on the part of the servant seems to be making excuses in blaming the Lord for his burying the talent. So, there is the risk of failure... but maybe he felt some despising toward the Lord.. like "you gave them 5 and 2 talents... but me you gave only 1". I'm still chewing on that.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

Right. The one talented servants may be intimidated or introspective about only having 1 talent... watching the 5 talented one give back 10, or the 2 talented one give back 4... he might be thinking his 1 talent could never return 10 or 4 ... he thinks probably not even 2.... so he buries it. Yet the Lord only asks him to invest what he has received.

I think of it this way.... Billy Graham was a 5 talented member of the Body.... he returned 10 (arguably more than that but to stay within the lines of the parable) ... we could get introspective about that and say "y'know, Brother Billy really understands how to lead people to the Lord... but I never could do what he does so I won't even try to preach the gospel... he more than makes up for my lack". That would be to bury our one talent in the matter of gospel preaching and thereby not fulfilling the great commission. Or in practical service in the church.. or any number of related talents.

Drake

Right! And I think there are a limited number of 5 talent ones. But there's a lot of us one talent ones (present company excepted of course). One talents are the infantry - the boots on the ground. If we don't do it, then who will!?

I am more and more aware that God has placed me with my family, my church-folk, my neighbors, my co-workers, my body, my house, money, vehicles - you name it! This is what He has given me and where He has me, and in these is where I need to be faithful.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Right! And I think there are a limited number of 5 talent ones. But there's a lot of us one talent ones (present company excepted of course). One talents are the infantry - the boots on the ground. If we don't do it, then who will!?

I am more and more aware that God has placed me with my family, my church-folk, my neighbors, my co-workers, my body, my house, money, vehicles - you name it! This is what He has given me and where He has me, and in these is where I need to be faithful.

yessir.

Be faithful to His calling where, when , and what.....and then be faithful if and when He calls you to a new where, at a new when, with a new what.

We never know about the future in our lives... .... and what is in the past is a frozen record.... but we have the present to do something about .... by following His instant leading and returning an investment on that which He gave us.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Be faithful to His calling where, when , and what.....and then be faithful if and when He calls you to a new where, at a new when, with a new what.
Drake

Well amen brother Drake.

[A little brother]

Thank you all, Sons to Glory, Ohio, Awareness, Evangelical, Aron, and Drake. We may have different viewpoints but I see the oneness in the body of Christ when all of you reach out to give advice to this little brother.

Since I rejoined the LC years ago, I started to re-examine every teaching I received from it. I began to realize that we are quick to fit ourselves into God's great promises/blessings, and to fit others into God's major warnings/accusations. To be fair, this is not just LC specific but applicable to Christians as a whole. May be it is because of how we received the gospel in the first place - God's perfect message preached through imperfect man to even more imperfect sinners.

We all treasure the subjective personal relationship with God. But I also tried to read the Bible more objectively to understand what God really says by firstly taking away the "I" from the context. So far I found this quite fruitful. It did no harm to my sujective experiences with God and actually helped me understand God and myself better.

Somehow, Matt 23:23 has become one of my favorite reminders.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law -- justice and mercy and faithfulness. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

We might think it is only about the others who have neglected the weightier matters. But we could be the other way round. We focus so much on the "higher truth" that we might have neglected the "lighter" matters. We point everything to Jesus and say it is not about us, but we forgot He appointed us to work on a few things. It actually doesn't matter that much which is the weightier and which is the lighter because Jesus told us not to neglect either.

Also, while Jesus is all in all, let's not neglect there is a "you" in

"And you shall love the Lord your God from your whole heart and from your whole soul and from your whole mind and from your whole strength.",

no matter how small and insignificant this "you" is in front of our great God.

[aron]

Originally Posted by A little brother

...while Jesus is all in all, let's not neglect there is a "you" in

"And you shall love the Lord your God from your whole heart and from your whole soul and from your whole mind and from your whole strength.",

no matter how small and insignificant this "you" is in front of our great God.

I see differently: the only person who fulfilled this law down to the proverbial "jot and title" was Jesus. The rest of us may indeed love, for an hour or two, but eventually we go back to being ourselves: unlovely, unlovable, and unloving. Jesus alone is the Way.

The rest of us may succeed in part, but we fail in part. And to fail in part, before God, is to fail. Only Jesus crossed the finish line. The rest of us fell.

Now, of course as disciples we must follow Jesus. Those who were dead in sins and offenses hear His voice and live; we rise to walk in newness of life. Of course that last sentence has a "we" in it. But I posit that the "we" only has validity inasmuch as its constituents realize "it's no longer I but Christ".

As soon as the "we" (or "I") begins to assume in our consciousness an ontological significance in and of itself, it becomes a gilded harlot. . . or, Lot's wife who turned back to gaze on what God had condemned.

The trick is to focus unyeildingly on Him. Then the love will flow: not ours but His.

The performance-oriented "we enjoy Christ" rubric is a decisive step down the slippery slope because now "we" is the subject of conscious attention and activity, while "Christ" is merely an object to be shuffled about. . .either waved or ignored, depending on the perceived need of the moment.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Not only are you a young child carrying around that burden, but once you grow up some and realize that you were cheated out of knowing the real person and heart of God, you are then left to wrestle with the questions of "Where was God in all this? Why would He let me go on for so long under such a heavy burden without stepping in to clear it up? If He really wants a relationship with me, where was He to correct the misrepresentation and show Himself to me? Does He really love me or just love seeing me hurt?"

It really does a number on you.

You are right.

Nearly all of us have our complaints about our own personal upbringing. I had mine. It was these almost cries for justice and answers that led me to the Savior, after stumbling into many shameful and painful pits. Since then life has not been a bed of roses without its discouragements. It was these events which force us to take serious assessment of our short time on earth. Do we zoom in on what we find missing and objectionable, or do we "treasure hunt" to find some heavenly gems in our own dumpster of life.

Fortunately, I've done both. I say fortunately because what if I had never sought the Answer, and then found Him? Of course, most of us would like to believe that "if God was good," we should never have had the difficulties we did in the first place. Why was I created the way I was? Why was I in this family? Why was everyone picking on me? Questions like this tormented me at one time. Over time I came to learn the secret of ascension. Actually I did this many times over the years, since I was first saved, before I even realized what I had done.

Briefly, I somehow rise above the situation and look down with a new point of view. I see suffering as short-lived and temporary. Instead of seeing my own health issues, I see those born blind, those hit by tragedy, those far worse off than me. Instead of comparing downward from some perceived ideal, I compare upward. All my complaints then seem tiny from above. Things take on new perspective. Eternity comes into view. The blessings of my Father can also be seen. The little annoyances almost disappear. The needs of others can be seen. The important things come into focus.

Trapped, hope this helps somehow.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are right.

Nearly all of us have our complaints about our own personal upbringing. I had mine. It was these almost cries for justice and answers that led me to the Savior, after stumbling into many shameful and painful pits. Since then life has not been a bed of roses without its discouragements. It was these events which force us to take serious assessment of our short time on earth. Do we zoom in on what we find missing and objectionable, or do we "treasure hunt" to find some heavenly gems in our own dumpster of life.

Fortunately, I've done both. I say fortunately because what if I had never sought the Answer, and then found Him? Of course, most of us would like to believe that "if God was good," we should never have had the difficulties we did in the first place. Why was I created the way I was? Why was I in this family? Why was everyone picking on me? Questions like this tormented me at one time. Over time I came to learn the secret of ascension. Actually I did this many times over the years, since I was first saved, before I even realized what I had done.

Briefly, I somehow rise above the situation and look down with a new point of view. I see suffering as short-lived and temporary. Instead of seeing my own health issues, I see those born blind, those hit by tragedy, those far worse off than me. Instead of comparing downward from some perceived ideal, I compare upward. All my complaints then seem tiny from above. Things take on new perspective. Eternity comes into view. The blessings of my Father can also be seen. The little annoyances almost disappear. The needs of others can be seen. The important things come into focus.

Trapped, hope this helps somehow.

I am reminded of John 10:10... the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy..but Jesus came that we would have life and have it more abundantly.. even overflowing..

So many people have been deceived by going to 'church'. I know many here have returned to 'church' and are happy and content. Good for you so this may not pertain to you.

That said, many people have given their lives and energy to 'the church' rather than to Jesus forgetting that we need our lamps to be filled daily with His Spirit. If He leads us to do good works so be it. Good works follows our Faith in HIM.

They eventually get burned out or deceived that 'the church' is more important than anything else. Loyalty is to the 'pastor' more than the congregation from my observation and even less to Jesus.

I have been reading testimonies of people leaving the 'church of Christ'...so many people are TRAPPED by religion. We forget GOD is not a religious Deity. We can't please HIM in our natural man! But as we have communion with HIM He directs our path.

Btw.. at my bible study last night, we had a guest who used to go to the church our hosts attend. Since we are reading Joshua, he brought a Shofar, a long ram's horn and blew it beautifully. He stopped attending the church he was raised in about 5-6 yrs ago.

What a SURPRISE he converted to JUDAISM! Big time, unwavering Jew!! I realized he never experienced the Holy Spirit and God's Word inside him..thus he was never born again... after attending Christian 'church' all his life. Anyway..

I am grateful for the scriptures:
Jesus began a good work in me.. in fact a MOST EXCELLENT work in me and not only me but to His followers..to His brethren, to the born again saints washed and cleansed in the Precious Blood of the Lamb and He is going to finish it. (Phillipians 1:6)

I am grateful He will never leave me (or us) and never, ever forsake us.

I am grateful for the Holy Spirit revealing 1 Corinthians 10:13 back in 1975

There is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: yet God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation (trial) also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Bottom line.. Satan, that old serpent does not want us to have a relationship, communion, Faith in Christ Jesus our Savior. He thrusts us into situations that cause us to doubt God is for us. To distrust believers, our fellow brethren.

Imagine what all those poor Catholic children endured during the 40s, 50's and 60s from the pedophile 'priests' in the RCC in Philadelphia!! May GOD truly have mercy on them and heal them and reveal HIMSELF to those people who were violated as children.

If there are any scriptures I hold on to, it is the ones I just mentioned:

Philippians 1:6
Hebrews 13:5
and 1 Corinthians 10:13

Blessings and healing from God to all.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So many people have been deceived by going to 'church'. I know many here have returned to 'church' and are happy and content. Good for you so this may not pertain to you.

That said, many people have given their lives and energy to 'the church' rather than to Jesus forgetting that we need our lamps to be filled daily with His Spirit. If He leads us to do good works so be it. Good works follows our Faith in HIM.

They eventually get burned out or deceived that 'the church' is more important than anything else. Loyalty is to the 'pastor' more than the congregation from my observation and even less to Jesus.

Yes. Oh the system of things we humans find ourselves in! My my.

The devil basically doesn't care what system of things someone gives themselves to - sports, fashion, TV & movies, career, politics, partying, crime . . . but also good religion (e.g., Christianity) or (dare I say it!?) even family. Some systems may be more quickly destructive to a person, but in the end, if he can us into the dirt without us experiencing the living Christ, he's been successful!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Thank you all, Sons to Glory, Ohio, Awareness, Evangelical, Aron, and Drake. We may have different viewpoints but I see the oneness in the body of Christ when all of you reach out to give advice to this little brother.

Yes and AMEN! This is the oneness of Christ and what is really true of us - the one Spirit! (not all the bickering, etc.) This encouraged my spirit.

"Behold how good and how pleasant it is . . ."

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by aron

The performance-oriented "we enjoy Christ" rubric is a decisive step down the slippery slope because now "we" is the subject of conscious attention and activity, while "Christ" is merely an object to be shuffled about. . .either waved or ignored, depending on the perceived need of the moment.

Aron, Thanks for your sharing. I agree the danger of "performance-oriented we enjoy Christ". On the other hand, there is another danger of we do nothing, focus on enjoying Christ and let the rest come naturally (WL and LSM have been teaching this for over half a century). Ends up people were so absorded into this ideal and became talkers and not doers. In my opinion, this second danger is the greater problem in the LC.

Take the example of what we have been talking about in this thread - the servants in Matt 25. The master left after entrusting the servants with the talents. If the faithful servants were busy looking for their master, they would have failed the assignment. In fact, their works with the entrusted talents were their linkage with the master. It was the third servant who played safe and did as little as possible while the master was not with him.

Again, I am not saying we don't have to focus on Christ. It is just that we cannot neglect either the focus on Christ and works (as in Matt 23:23 I shared earlier).

One common logic flaw I found from many of WL's messages is the "if it is A, then it must not be B". Christ and works are never mutually exclusive. If we as believers claim all our works could only be from our old selves, we could be rejecting the works of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Phil 2:13 For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure.

Let's also take a look at Paul's epistles. He usually did not just talk about "it is no longer I but Christ", he also included many practical matters (works) and greetings to individuals (not just Christ, but people in Christ) in the ending chapters. Take Ephesians as an example, Paul could have finished the whole epistle with that wonderful message of "be filled unto all the fullness of God" in end of Chapter 3. Yet he continued with another three chapters on practical church living. I think he had spoken clearly what was in his mind.

[aron]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Take the example of what we have been talking about in this thread - the servants in Matt 25. The master left after entrusting the servants with the talents. If the faithful servants were busy looking for their master, they would have failed the assignment. In fact, their works with the entrusted talents were their linkage with the master. It was the third servant who played safe and did as little as possible while the master was not with him.

Again, I am not saying we don't have to focus on Christ. It is just that we cannot neglect either the focus on Christ and works (as in Matt 23:23 I shared earlier).

One common logic flaw I found from many of WL's messages is the "if it is A, then it must not be B". Christ and works are never mutually exclusive. If we as believers claim all our works could only be from our old selves, we could be rejecting the works of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Phil 2:13 For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure.

We're both saying the same thing, from different perspectives. I was making my point because in the LC the real danger lies in your trusting yourself - your calling, your confessing, your sharing in meetings, your alignment with Anaheim. If you do all this then you'll make it into the Wedding Feast and avoid 1,000 years of outer darkness, with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I'm stressing the point that if you seek first the kingdom of God, everything else will be added to you including the (necessary) good works and the "kingdom reward". If you keep your eyes on the King, you'll get everything else.

The LC seduces you to trust your "enjoyment" as if that were something in and of itself, of independent value. It's a Chimera. Eventually your enjoyment is subsumed by theirs. Eventually the Guru wants to take some church funds to bankroll his son's business, or set his other son over the churches as "the office." That's his enjoyment; now what has happened to yours? Gone. Suddenly it's all about "being restricted for the Body".

If you had simply kept your eyes on Jesus, you would have gotten all that already. All the struggles, the hope, the triumphs - they are all His. Our faith brings us along for the ride. To quote a Hippie poet: "The bus came by, and I got on; that's when it all began." Jesus is our bus, and faith puts us on it.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

...Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Finally got around to looking at this paper again, and I incorporated the matter of God's righteousness as a basis for His action (thanks!). However, what do you mean by my "three principles" to add as a summary?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Finally got around to looking at this paper again, and I incorporated the matter of God's righteousness as a basis for His action (thanks!). However, what do you mean by my "three principles" to add as a summary?

From post #192..

"So I want to bring these three things up again, as we didn't get many responding aye or nay. Can we have consensus on these three basic principles?


1. The Father loves us and we are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God who are true believers are thereby saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in the OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is firm yet He is fair in all His ways."

these were very relevant to topic... so I thought including them up front would be good and then summarizing with them in the end. something like this

Front: " In this paper three basic and scriptural principles will be covered....... "

Middle: the article itself

End: " I have endeavored to show from the scriptures three principles of the Christian faith concerning the Father's love, regeneration, righteousness, and His judgments.... "

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Actually I too quickly dismissed the "ask the experts" question, seeing it as a dodge to get off the subject of the glaring lacks in the LSM hermeneutical programmme.

But while we're on the subject, there's a useful field of scholarship expanding knowledge of the conversation occurring around the time that Jesus and his disciples lived, taught, and wrote. It is called, roughly "Second Temple Studies". What did an apostle mean when he wrote something? What did shared meanings did a parable convey? . . .A little humility and reticence seem in order, and goes a long way. And they allow differences of interpretation to exist, and mutual uncertainty, instead of resorting to calling each other "dark" and "ambitious" and "divisive". It's rather refreshing, really. . . quite, um, Christian, even.

Devorah Dimant
John J. Collins
Annette Yoshiko Reed
James C. VanderKam
Peter W. Flint
Esther Chazon
Carol A. Newsom
Josef T Milik
John M. Allegro
Lawrence H. Schiffman
Gabriel Boccaccini
Yisrael Yadin
James H. Charlesworth
Emile Puech
Emanuel Tov

This is a good list to start. There are a lot more. Happy trails. See you at the finish line, whenever that may be.

(And don't go beyond what is written).

I forgot Loren Stuckenbruck. He's really good, I think. To be clear, I'm not his disciple and have not sent him any money. But I've listened to some of his ideas & they've helped to form mine. He teaches in a university, has books and magazine articles out, has speeches on YouTube. Nothing hidden in a corner. All available to anyone. Go down to your public library and help yourself. No need to play the "authority and submission" game with some wanna-be satrap like Nee or Lee.

Back to the teachings of Jesus: as you do to others , so will be done to you. Forgive and you'll be forgiven. Show mercy and you'll receive mercy. And the opposites are true as well, and are explicitly affirmed. If you don't show mercy, no mercy will be shown you. It's not confusing, and some special interpretation can't overturn it.

People like Darby, Nee & Lee, Calvin once had their place. They rejected traditions of men & looked at scripture & asked, "What does it mean?" But their question really was, "What does it mean to me?" Now we're beginning to ask, "What did this mean to Jesus, to John and Peter and Paul, to first-century readers?" We must be a little more cautious with our assertions. But I find them to be rewarding questions to ask.

As an example, if you consider what "outer darkness" meant without consulting supporting documents like the Book of Enoch, your answer will be short. Yes, it's not scripture, I know, but is cited by scripture (Jude) and is probably referenced by Jesus in passages like Lazarus and the rich man, and "an evil spirit goes out of a man and travels through waterless places seeking rest". The fact that copies were found at Qumran, and that the Ethiopian churches preserved copies is significant. It was part of the conversation, and informed the understandings of things like judgment, reward, and "many stripes". People like John Darby and Watchman Nee lacked such resources. We do not.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

People like Darby, Nee & Lee, Calvin once had their place. They rejected traditions of men & looked at scripture & asked, "What does it mean?" But their question really was, "What does it mean to me?" Now we're beginning to ask, "What did this mean to Jesus, to John and Peter and Paul, to first-century readers?" We must be a little more cautious with our assertions. But I find them to be rewarding questions to ask.

As an example, if you consider what "outer darkness" meant without consulting supporting documents like the Book of Enoch, your answer will be short. Yes, it's not scripture, I know, but is cited by scripture (Jude) and is probably referenced by Jesus in passages like Lazarus and the rich man, and "an evil spirit goes out of a man and travels through waterless places seeking rest". The fact that copies were found at Qumran, and that the Ethiopian churches preserved copies is significant. It was part of the conversation, and informed the understandings of things like judgment, reward, and "many stripes". People like John Darby and Watchman Nee lacked such resources. We do not.

Interesting . . . Please elaborate more - what do you see as the meaning of "outer darkness?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Interesting . . . Please elaborate more - what do you see as the meaning of "outer darkness?"

To go back to my point - the question is not, "What do you see as the meaning" today any more than what Calvin saw in the 16th century or Darby in the 19th. The question is, "What did this term mean in 1st-century Judea?" There are two reinforcing lines of inquiry. In one, we look at the word or phrase or concept. The actual idea conveyed - remember that Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher, as well as a prophet. In parables he was a rabbi.

I've gone into this at length with 'ekklesia' - Jesus didn't invent a term wholecloth in Matt. 16. See, e.g., the LXX of Psalm 1 and Psalm 22 (cf Heb 2:12).

So don't expect anyone to spoonfeed you; if you want answers, you'll have to dig. But that's where contemporary scholarship comes in.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

To go back to my point - the question is not, "What do you see as the meaning" today any more than what Calvin saw in the 16th century or Darby in the 19th. The question is, "What did this term mean in 1st-century Judea?" There are two reinforcing lines of inquiry. In one, we look at the word or phrase or concept. The actual idea conveyed - remember that Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher, as well as a prophet. In parables he was a rabbi.

I've gone into this at length with 'ekklesia' - Jesus didn't invent a term wholecloth in Matt. 16. See, e.g., the LXX of Psalm 1 and Psalm 22 (cf Heb 2:12).

So don't expect anyone to spoonfeed you; if you want answers, you'll have to dig. But that's where contemporary scholarship comes in.

No, I was asking what you, personally, thought was the meaning of outer darkness.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

No, I was asking what you, personally, thought was the meaning of outer darkness.

To me, outer darkness is separation from God.

Scripture shows us 3 falls: the fall of Satan, the fall of man, and the fall of the angels. Note that Genesis 6 occurs after Genesis 3. And this isn't extraneous to the Christian's mind because both Jude and 2 Peter spent time on the cause and consequences of the third fall. If you want to peer into darkness, read those chapters. "When light becomes dark, how great is the dark!"

Loren Stuckenbrucks book on the fall of the angels is really enlightening.

It is all about one thing - obedience. The Son loved the Father and obeyed, and the Father delighted in the Son and and raised him to glory.

Jesus dealt with all 3 falls. Most people I talk to only are aware of the first two. But to ascertain unseen realms as Jesus and his disciples might have - then clarity and dimension begin to emerge. Suddenly everything has its imperative, holistic sense. As you do, so it will be done to you. It's so simple even a Galilean fisherman can grasp it. And yet a Pharisee is in awe of its brilliance.

Do not do unto others as they do to you; rather do unto others as you would have them do. Outwardly, not much will change, at least in the beginning. But inwardly it is the difference between heaven and hell. I believe it is our path across that great gap. "And where I am going, you know the way."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

To me, outer darkness is separation from God.

Could we say more specifically that outer darkness is separation from God during the wedding dinner of His Son?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Could we say more specifically that outer darkness is separation from God during the wedding dinner of His Son?

Wedding feast = 1000 year reign?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Loren Stuckenbrucks book on the fall of the angels is really enlightening.

Thanks. But only Prosperity Preachers can afford his books.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks. But only Prosperity Preachers can afford his books.

It's called "Interlibrary Loan".. most libraries have them. The book is widespread enough that most libraries have one in their network.

Also Annette Yoshiko Reed did a book on the fall of the angels. Not as good but still readable.

The alternative is either: 1) to pretend this subject is irrelevant (and ignore Jude and 2 Peter and Genesis 6); 2) to find yourself on a website where they are telling you about the Annunaki and alien giants; or 3) to listen to some home-brewed Protestant or post-Protestant teaching like Lee put out. Or didn't, as the case may be. You know, the old Calvinist "this means that" stuff.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Could we say more specifically that outer darkness is separation from God during the wedding dinner of His Son?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Wedding feast = 1000 year reign?

The important thing for me as a Christian is to separate what is "truth" with what is "interpretation".

What is objective "truth" for the Christian believer: 1) God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day; 2) God loved the world so much that He sent His only begotten Son; 3) If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, you will be saved; 4) &c, &c, &c.

To me that is "Truth". A teaching, or interpretation, is on the meaning of a parable, or the "rapture" versus the "tribulation". Those are our hermeneutical or narrative overlays.

Even my "There are 3 falls in scripture" (post #329) is an interpretation. There maybe more than 3 falls. . . and the Genesis 6 story, even though seemingly alluded to in Jude v.6 and 2 Peter 2:4, is not necessarily the same as the "one third of the stars" swept down by the dragon's tail in Revelation 12:4. We may connect the proverbial dots, or find 'correlation' as Evangelical says, but that is our personal interpretation, not truth.

I've already said why I think the "1,000 years of darkness" is unsatisfactory for me. Evangelical admits it's a theological bandage to bridge the gap between "OSAS" and "Arminianism". Arguably preferable to either of them, but "recovered truth"? A stretch. My main issue is that the two NT sections (Hebrews 2 & 1 Cor 10) covering the fall of the Israelites in the Wilderness doesn't answer what happened to Moses. If falling in the Wilderness means eternal perdition, why is Moses on the mountain with Jesus in the gospels? If it means "dispensational punishment" then why does Moses skip the 1,000 years of "summer school"? God is not a respecter of persons; if Moses gets transformed by the age of the gospels, then others may be as well. And if the OT Israelites are, why not the Christians?

Secondly, 1,0000 years of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" seems somewhat arbitrary and not like the God seen in the Bible. Evangelical says "same time, different severity" for the punishment. Perhaps, perhaps not. That is an interpretation, not truth.

And Drake says that I'm supposed to offer an alternative. No, I'm not. I'm not supposed to give a definitive interpretation of every Bible verse. I've already stated what I believe to be the truth - see above. To some extent I'm willing to live with the unknown. And that doesn't mean we "disregard judgment" if we say that we don't have to systematize our parables. It just means that we want to make up our own mind, our own way. Why did Nee get to read all those books and pick his understanding, and we don't? What if we don't want to be spoon-fed someone's private interpretation as our 'reality'?

On to Lazarus and the Rich Man, and Outer Darkness. Interestingly, the Rich Man is "in torment" and yet we're told that "he lived luxuriously" on earth. How are those commensurate? Because in both, the RM was separated from God. His wining and dining was to cover the fact that inside he was miserable, separated from his Creator. When he was dead, the wine was gone and bare torment was left. In both cases (alive on earth and dead in Hades), the separation and darkness was the same.

And it makes no difference to me whether the Lazarus and the RM is a "true story" or a "Parable". In either case there is a message. And the message of Scripture is consistent.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

It's called "Interlibrary Loan".. most libraries have them. The book is widespread enough that most libraries have one in their network.

Also Annette Yoshiko Reed did a book on the fall of the angels. Not as good but still readable.

The alternative is either: 1) to pretend this subject is irrelevant (and ignore Jude and 2 Peter and Genesis 6); 2) to find yourself on a website where they are telling you about the Annunaki and alien giants; or 3) to listen to some home-brewed Protestant or post-Protestant teaching like Lee put out. Or didn't, as the case may be. You know, the old Calvinist "this means that" stuff.

I have both the hard and Kindle copies of "Fallen Angels - and The Origins of Evil - Why the Church Fathers Suppressed the Book of Enoch and its Starling Revelations." by Elizabeth Prophet.

And yes, most Christians won't touch the subject. I find it fascinating.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Trapped

For something so consequential I couldn't understand why there was not some kind of gauge on my arm that showed my current level of oil so I could gas or throttle my openness as needed!

The NT is full of various "gauges"

When Jesus touches the bier of the dead boy that is a gauge. According to the law if someone with a nazarite vow touches death the vow is over and they have to start again. Since Jesus is our high priest and he is not of the priestly lineage but rather is a priest after the order of Melchisedek He is a nazarite. When He touches death something has to give, He was putting His entire earthly ministry on the line because of his compassion for the widow.

This "gauge" as you put it is described in the book of James where he says that: "The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working."

This should be your experience, if not, that is an indication that you are "low on oil".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I was merely responding to Drake's Matt. 18:34 statement, which is about forgiveness, and not outer darkness.

Matthew 18 begins with a question about "who is greatest in the kingdom", probably a good starting point for anyone studying overcomers. The chapter ends with who is the least in the kingdom, those who are petty and do not forgive their brothers from their heart, these ones are "cast into prison until they can pay all they owe" which based on the initial debt of 10,000 talents (perhaps $10 million in today's currency) is going to be a very long time.

Again, this concept of debtors prison in this parable is similar to the discussion of being thrown into "outer darkness".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. Yes, I saw that and the follow-on discussion. My question has to do with the time: Why is it the full thousand years, or is it a portion of time - 5 minutes or 500 years? Where specifically do we get the time factor and the teaching I heard much about, that it is 1,000 years?

I think the basis is on the reference to the judgement seat of Christ and the Great White Throne judgement. Since the time frame between the two is taken to be 1,000 years.

Interestingly, I think the account of the false prophet is instructive. The standard theology is that at the end of this age the believers are judged and the overcomers enter into the joy of their Lord for the thousand year millennial reign. Then at the end of that age the Great White throne judgement will sort out both believers and unbelievers. It is taught that it is at this judgement that some are sent to the Lake of Fire. However, the false prophet is already in the lake of fire prior to the Great White Throne judgement. Obviously you are free to hypothesize why this is, my best guess is that the False prophet, based on Matt 7, wanted to be judged at the judgement seat of Christ thinking he was a believer, the Lord accommodated him, and sent him to the Lake of Fire 1,000 years early.

What I find interesting is that Matt 18 refers to all 3 cases, the overcomers (who is greatest in the kingdom?), outer darkness (debtors prison) and the false prophet (those that stumble the least in the kingdom).

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Yep.

Reminds of a nice young Muslim man I once talked to.

I was preaching the gospel to an Imam and some of his followers...... an intense encounter as you might imagine. After an hour or so, not sure exactly cuz time flies by when you’re having fun, and the screaming on their side subsided a few decibels a young man pulled me aside, handed me a KJV Bible, and challenged me to show him where it says “Jesus is God”. Several verses came to mind and as I started to thumb through to them he added “but you can only use the verses in RED”. He meant of course that He only wanted the proof from the actual quotes of Jesus as indicated by the red text in his Bible.

That is selective and that is what Aron is also doing.. pivoting his argument on “1000” or limiting it to the book of Revelation. Plugging his ears to the whole in favor of a part to support his argument. In so doing he is violating an important matter concerning the Word of God. He is breaking it. Jesus told the Jews they were doing this when He referred to Himself as the Son of God and He challenged them concerning their own teaching “gods” in Psalm 82. He said the scripture cannot be broken. Aron’s argument fails were he to allow Brother Lees teaching on the subject from whole Bible.... so he slices and dices the Word of God... breaking it.

Drake

It may seem an unreasonable request, but why? We have a basis to think that the millennial kingdom is 1,000 years.

We have a basis to feel that the end of this age will be a judgement, and the end of the millennial kingdom will also have a judgement.

Why wouldn't the determination that you enter "outer darkness" or "the joy of your Lord" be made at the Lord's judgement seat. Seems quite consistent with the NT revelation. Why wouldn't the judgement to enter into the kingdom for all believers, even those in the "outer darkness" be made at the Great White Throne? seems reasonable.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

"So I want to bring these three things up again, as we didn't get many responding aye or nay. Can we have consensus on these three basic principles?

[COLOR=Purple]
1. The Father loves us and we are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God who are true believers are thereby saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in the OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is firm yet He is fair in all His ways."

[COLOR=black]

I think this is missing a very important point that we learn in Matt 18.

Very often Christians think it is a binary choice -- overcomer or outer darkness. Matt 18 begins with "who is the greatest" and ends with the one being sent to debtors prison. But why? Because he violated the principle "forgive us as we have forgiven those that sin against us".

On this thread there have been mentioning of those who have no hope of being an overcomer to the point it has become a sad joke. But, can't you at least forgive those who have sinned against you? That is all it takes to avoid outer darkness.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think this is missing a very important point that we learn in Matt 18.

Very often Christians think it is a binary choice -- overcomer or outer darkness. Matt 18 begins with "who is the greatest" and ends with the one being sent to debtors prison. But why? Because he violated the principle "forgive us as we have forgiven those that sin against us".

On this thread there have been mentioning of those who have no hope of being an overcomer to the point it has become a sad joke. But, can't you at least forgive those who have sinned against you? That is all it takes to avoid outer darkness.

And we also need to consider the words spoken to the faithful servants in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in a FEW things; I will set you over many. Enter into the joy of your master."

As I mentioned earlier, this was quite the eye-opener for many of us when a brother recently shared his experience of the Lord touching him about this matter. Many of us get the idea with the Bema and overcoming that the bar is set really high and we must be a SuperSaint to somehow get over it. (I was so inspired that a 4 page paper on the subject just flowed out of me and I posted it on this forum a couple weeks ago. So far I think the only one who acknowledged it was Drake . . See here for "Faithful in a Few Things" paper )

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And we also need to consider the words spoken to the faithful servants in Matthew 25, "Well done good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in a FEW things; I will set you over many. Enter into the joy of your master."

As I mentioned earlier, this was quite the eye-opener for many of us when a brother recently shared his experience of the Lord touching him about this matter. Many of us get the idea with the Bema and overcoming that the bar is set really high and we must be a SuperSaint to somehow get over it. (I was so inspired that a 4 page paper on the subject just flowed out of me and I posted it on this forum a couple weeks ago. So far I think the only one who acknowledged it was Drake . . See here for "Faithful in a Few Things" paper )

What do you mean "acknowledge"?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What do you mean "acknowledge"?

Just that I don't think anyone else mentioned they had looked at it. They may have read it, but didn't mention it to my recollection (but then again I'm in the 4th quarter, so perhaps not as fresh as I used to be . . . LOL)

[Sons to Glory!]

So I've been reading two recent books on the Bema, "The Judgment Seat of Christ: A Biblical and Theological Study" by Hoyt and "Your Eternal Reward: Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ" by Lutzer. I finished the Lutzer book and passed it along to another bro who wanted to read it. This book was an easy read and I agreed with 96.7% of what it said. The brother I gave it to is quite well read, and said he is enjoying it.

The book by Hoyt is a much more academic and systematic approach, and therefore I have to engage my brain a little more (oh no! ). I'm maybe 1/3 through it and so far both books agree on the main points regarding the Bema. However, last night I read where Hoyt stated that the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 was not a believer. Surprisingly, he did not go into much detail other than to quote one other person on the subject. Up until that point he pretty exhaustively covered each and every point he's made, very systematically.

The reason I can't agree is that Jesus starts this parable by saying this, "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods."

BTW - This goes along with what Jesus told regarding the 12 virgins in the preceding parable - they were all virgins, they all had lamps burning (although half were going out), they all arose to meet the bridegroom.

Can anyone provide a solid reason from scripture that any of these ones presented in Matthew 25:1-30 were not born again?

[Sons to Glory!]

Looks like maybe I'm just having a conversation here with myself! Am I the only one laboring on Labor Day weekend!? (yes, I have my honey-do list . . .)

While reading "The Judgment Seat of Christ" (Samuel Hoyt) book, I read where he doesn't see the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 being a true born-again one. He gives as his only reference to support this contention this webpage called "Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth - will this be the fate of true Christians?" by George Zeller. See Weeping & Gnashing article here

In this reference, the 7 instances of weeping & gnashing of teeth in the NT are explored. It is stated that it is commonly held that three of these instances pertain to the wicked and four pertain to Christians. A concluding quote from the above link postulates otherwise:

Wherever you find the expression "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the New Testament, know of a certainty that it is a description of the judgment and doom of lost, unsaved men who will not inherit and not even enter the kingdom. It is never used to describe the fate of saved people.

I sent brother Hoyt an email regarding this matter, and here it is:

Hi Brother,

I'm enjoying your book, "The Judgment Seat of Christ." I have a question regarding an apparent disparity regarding the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25.

On page 78 (paperback) it states that this unfaithful servant is "an unsaved man facing eternal damnation." I read the footnote referencing the supporting online article by George Zeller, which I also read.

The issue I have with this is that a simple observation of what Jesus told us at the beginning of the parable, doesn't seem to concur that the unfaithful servant is not one of His own: “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them." (Matt 25:14) They were his servants. He entrusted wealth to them. If the two faithful ones belonged to the master, we have to say the unfaithful one did too.

Thanks for writing this book in such a systematic, thoughtful and Christ-centered way!

The Lord be with your spirit!

The basic conclusion Hoyt comes to in his book (as I can ascertain thus far) is that Christians at the Bema will be rewarded for their works or will suffer the loss of those rewards -- and while there may be distress and anguish felt by the child of God on account of their works falling short and therefore not being well-pleasing to the Lord, there will be nothing negative long-term (except the ongoing loss of the reward), and no specific punishment (per se) for their shortcomings. I'm a little over halfway through the book, so perhaps Hoyt develops some additional thoughts regarding his overall thesis . . .

[ABrotherinFaith]

This is one of the most interesting topics ( it's been discussed here before) to me, not just as a Christian but as a former LCer. Their air of superiority is at least in part, rooted in there teaching of who is (LCers) and who isn't (the rest) an overcomer. I don't remember hearing that ALL those in the LC woikd be overcomers, but I do remember hearing that overcomers came from among the Recovery, and not in a general sense... More exclusively. I'm looking forward to reading the links you've provided.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

This is one of the most interesting topics ( it's been discussed here before) to me, not just as a Christian but as a former LCer. Their air of superiority is at least in part, rooted in there teaching of who is (LCers) and who isn't (the rest) an overcomer. I don't remember hearing that ALL those in the LC woikd be overcomers, but I do remember hearing that overcomers came from among the Recovery, and not in a general sense... More exclusively. I'm looking forward to reading the links you've provided.

Great! There is a lot of back & forth discussion on this thread about this topic. The thread started a little over a year ago on the outer darkness topic, then got off point and went cold, then got resurrected exactly a month ago). There's been a lot of discussion a month!

Have you read the paper I'm working on? If not, here it is. It's still a work in progress and is called, "Faithful in a Few Things." It's based on fellowship a few of us in Scottsdale have had over the last few months, about what the Lord is showing us fresh on this topic. Bema - Faithful in a Few 9-3-18.pdf

[Sons to Glory!]

I was reading some links an ex-LC brother (Terry Risenhoover) recently sent me to various writings by the Plymouth Brethren. In one of these a brother named Kelly takes on Govett for his view that the unfaithful servant goes into Hades for a thousand years. Evidently, and I haven't confirmed this in his writings, Govett held this view.

Govett pastored at the Surrey Chapel until his death. M.E. Barber fellowshiped there and she strongly influenced Nee. This may be where WL got this view -- that believers will spend 1,000 years in outer darkness (or Hades).

I appreciate how Govett writes with good clarity, but if he holds this view I don't think I can agree with him on this. At least not with the current light I've been given . . .

But I also appreciate the differing views as this is a meatier subject to grasp I think. Praise God that our oneness doesn't depend on agreeing on this kind of non-essential doctrine! (I'd much rather have different views than be in lockstep.)

So does anyone know for sure whether Govett held the view that those who don't have works which survived the Bema would spend 1,000 years in Hades?

(Also, for anyone interested, here is the latest and hopefully final edit of the "Faithful in a Few Things" paper. Lots of little proofings and edits by others on this version!)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks StG,

The judgement seat of Christ is not to display and assess sins.... they are under the blood and as the first of four blessings of the new covenant God does not remember them anymore (Hebrews 8:12) .

Rather, the BEMA is to receive reward or punishment for works, deeds, and behavior after becoming a christian. For instance, lack of forgiveness, exacting payment from others and throwing others into prison though your payment was forgiven by the Lord, burying your talent and being an unprofitable servant.. etc. etc. All those are matters of determining an entrance into the manifestation of the kingdom... not salvation. That is what most christian theology misses... the kingdom and its manifestation and the requirements to enter... it is not a matter of fear.. it is a matter of attainment of the standards He has set to rule with Him. We have a clue to this when the thief on the cross repented and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The Lord accurately and wisely said that on that very same day the repentant thief would be with him in Paradise (the pleasant part of Hades where Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham)... but He did not confirm the thief would join Him in His kingdom. The calls to the overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 are also instructive in this matter. Not all will overcome but to those that do He will reward... including to shepherd the nations (Revelation 2:26-27) a clear reference to the time the Lord Jesus rules on the earth for 1000 years.

So, no, Brother Lee did not teach the BEMA was to rehash sins that the Lord has long forgotten and issue a reward or punishment based on those. If God were to do that He would be unrighteous.... and we know that He can never be unrighteous else the universe as we know it would collapse and we wouldn't be here chatting about it.

Drake

I'm bringing this forward because I believe this should be front and center in every Christian's understanding and to guide and remind each of us of this most solemn event that awaits our future.

I need this reminder and so do we all.

I mentioned elsewhere that our (the believers) words and deeds will be judged by the Lord in the air at His return. At that time, believers will either receive a reward (to enter into the 1000 year reign with the Lord) or will suffer a dispensational punishment in outer darkness (outside of His cloud of glory). As StG has correctly captured in his research paper on the subject (found in this thread) this is not a judgment concerning eternal life, that matter has already been settled and if you find yourself at the Judgment Seat of Christ in the air you have eternal life else you would not be there! That judgment is for the believers alone. The nations, still alive at the end of the great tribulation, are judged on the earth after the judgment in the air of the believers (born again regenerated Christians)

So the good news is if you are at the Judgment Seat of Christ in the air you have eternal life and that will not be taken away ever. The really good news is that if your works, your deeds, your words, your behavior, are found worthy then Christ will make you a co-king in His millennial reign. The bad news is that if they are not found worthy then that believer/servant will suffer outer darkness for some or all of the 1000 years millennial reign. We should not deceive ourselves into thinking all will be well at His judgment in the air just because we have eternal life when we believed in the Lord. No. Judgment begins at the house of God and the examples of the unworthy servants in Matthew and the non-overcomers in Revelation 2 & 3 serve as fair warning to us about the type of works, deeds, and words that will be judged.

That brings us, or should bring us, to a very clear understanding that even the words spoken in this forum will be included at that judgment. Sometimes I fear brothers, that as we sit behind our computers typing away we do not sense the reality of that day in our hearts. For if we did, would we say the things that are often said in this forum against other believers? I think not. Do not misinterpret my meaning to suggest that you cannot challenge or disagree with any man's teaching. No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that there is a line that is crossed all too frequently and ends up in mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, willful misunderstanding and an argumentative spirit, against His servants and His children. This, I believe, will not only be judged at His coming, but can affect our spiritual progress in this life.

Jessie Penn Lewis spoke of this latter point of hindrance to spiritual progress when she wrote: " When you are in the spiritual plane and know the Holy Spirit in your spirit, you recognize there are grave consequences attached to all you do.You cannot go back from the spirit life without stepping into a pathway of failure. The moment you drop from the plane that you have reached you begin to lose spirit strength, and if you do not recover your place quickly you will ultimately sink into a deeper failure. The loss not only affects yourself but everyone with whom you have to deal. You may wrongly interpret or reject the words of a servant of the God and that would cause you to go back without knowing it. This hindrance to your spirit life will maintained while that wrong thought or attitude is held." Walking in the Will of God. JPL

So, look, to the brothers and sisters in this forum I caution and advise each of you to consider this matter carefully knowing that there are grave consequences in this life in our christian walk and spiritual progress.... and at His judgment seat when He returns. If you read this, you, and I, are without excuse. This is not a threat, not a scare tactic, but a call to each of you to examine your heart and your words and the content of your posts in truthfulness and attitude before the Lord. If He judges your works, deeds, and words as worthy, you will receive a reward and if not you will spend time in outer darkness. The Lord's reward or punishment applies just as much to me as it does to you.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

That brings us, or should bring us, to a very clear understanding that even the words spoken in this forum will be included at that judgment. Sometimes I fear brothers, that as we sit behind our computers typing away we do not sense the reality of that day in our hearts. For if we did, would we say the things that are often said in this forum against other believers? I think not. Do not misinterpret my meaning to suggest that you cannot challenge or disagree with any man's teaching. No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that there is a line that is crossed all too frequently and ends up in mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, willful misunderstanding and an argumentative spirit, against His servants and His children. This, I believe, will not only be judged at His coming, but can affect our spiritual progress in this life.

Drake

I do carefully consider what I say in the light of His word, often deleting or modifying posts which He is not pleased with.

My first response is to ask why does Drake never speak up when listening to Witness Lee or the Blendeds mock and condemn the entire body of Christ outside the LC's? Where does LSM get the license to do what Drake warns us about?

Drake, weren't you there at the Whistler, BC ITERO Kangaroo Court condemning Titus Chu? Did you stand up and warn them all about the Judgment Seat of Christ? I watched that nonsense and you were no where to be found.

Secondly, does not the scripture teach us to "test all things" including the teachings and actions of LSM's leaders? Did not the Apostle Paul call certain false workers "dogs?" When Paul told the Philippians, "Beware of dogs!" was that mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, or willful misunderstanding?

Thirdly, I do my best to address the teachings and actions of individual leaders, rather than judge their person or their motives, or judge every LC member. I admit that sometimes sarcasm is the best way to communicate, exposing the rampant hypocrisy at LSM. The bottom line for me is simple -- people got hurt, and LSM could care less. That's why this forum exists.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Govett pastored at the Surrey Chapel until his death. M.E. Barber fellowshiped there and she strongly influenced Nee. This may be where WL got this view -- that believers will spend 1,000 years in outer darkness (or Hades).

Hi StG,

Sorry for the delay on your questions.... That is a misunderstanding for neither Watchman Nee or Witness Lee taught that the outer darkness = Hades.

"The outer darkness outside of the Lord’s glory is neither the lake of fire nor the section of torment in Hades where all the perished sinners are (Luke 16:26, 23a, 28). It is a place of dispensational punishment for the defeated believers." Basic Lessons on Service, Witness Lee

As to Govett you will have to provide a reference with a quote or a scripture and then I can explore my library and its resources. I believe I have all of Govett's works but do not recall him making that remark.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

What I am saying is that there is a line that is crossed all too frequently and ends up in mocking, derision, slander, exaggeration, willful misunderstanding and an argumentative spirit, against His servants and His children. This, I believe, will not only be judged at His coming, but can affect our spiritual progress in this life.

You may wrongly interpret or reject the words of a servant of the God and that would cause you to go back without knowing it. This hindrance to your spirit life will maintained while that wrong thought or attitude is held.

This, of course, can apply to you, if and when you reject the words of the servants of God on this forum.

The Lord isn't bothered by crudeness. (He ran around with fishermen for gosh sakes.) He's bothered by insincerity.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I'm bringing this forward because I believe this should be front and center in every Christian's understanding and to guide and remind each of us of this most solemn event that awaits our future.

I need this reminder and so do we all.

Yet humour has its uses, as well. It's especially useful to skewer the pretensions of those who think they've laid hold in this age, while they're yet in the flesh of sin, and try to convince others of this. One person's delusion then becomes mass delusion. We don't skewer the person but the spirit of pretension behind them.

Of course disrespect is disrespect, and should be avoided. But humour is good, too. I like, for instance, Paul writing, "Since you bear so well with those who beat you about the head and face, you ought also bear with me for a bit." Sarcasm. Very effective as an attention-getter.

Jesus saying, "Behold! An Israelite without guile!" A zinger, not only a double but a triple entendre, probably. A very funny inside joke if you can catch it. But truly affectionate as well, I bet. Same with calling Cephas as 'Peter'. Another inside joke. Then, the more obvious "Sons of Thunder". This was a man who loved to stare straight-faced while you gasped in horror and stammered a reply. "You give them something to eat", is one of my favorites. Luke 9:13. Look at the disciples' response. But of course he was holy. "You are the Holy One of God!" Mark 1:24, passim. Yet, he hung out with sinners, and drank wine, and he laughed.

We'd have done better had we laughed at Lee's pretensions of grandeur. But we were naively drawn into his "most solemn" nonsense. His solemnity was a farce. I don't feel remiss to point it out. And there were some who were clearly drawn to his airs as a vehicle for their own. That one who constantly looked out for "ambition" in his flock, himself held such a reservoir as to presume be God's sole mouthpiece on earth today. And the sycophants crowded round, genuflecting and amenning. I don't know if it's funny or sad. But I guess I just like to laugh.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

We'd have done better had we laughed at Lee's pretensions of grandeur. But we were naively drawn into his "most solemn" nonsense. His solemnity was a farce. I don't feel remiss to point it out. And there were some who were clearly drawn to his airs as a vehicle for their own. That one who constantly looked out for "ambition" in his flock, himself held such a reservoir as to presume be God's sole mouthpiece on earth today. And the sycophants crowded round, genuflecting and amenning. I don't know if it's funny or sad. But I guess I just like to laugh.

So well said about that "devil" AMBITION. Lee could see "ambition" in everyone else, but not himself. Neither in his sons, Timothy and Phillip.

And where's that verse that condemns "ambition?" Apostle Paul told us that he was always "ambitious" to please the Lord. Yet Poor Paul would have been quarantined by Lee, along with John Ingalls and John So and so many others, and sent into "outer darkness" for the "unforgiveable" sin of ambition.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

...So, look, to the brothers and sisters in this forum I caution and advise each of you to consider this matter carefully knowing that there are grave consequences in this life in our christian walk and spiritual progress.... and at His judgment seat when He returns. If you read this, you, and I, are without excuse. This is not a threat, not a scare tactic, but a call to each of you to examine your heart and your words and the content of your posts in truthfulness and attitude before the Lord. If He judges your works, deeds, and words as worthy, you will receive a reward and if not you will spend time in outer darkness. The Lord's reward or punishment applies just as much to me as it does to you.
Drake

Drake,

This is not a response to your post, but a critique. Posts like this one could better be received if they began with "I repent..." or "I'm sorry...".

That is, it would be more meaningful if you told us you had examined your own heart and your own posts on this forum before the Lord...if you had actually done that, of course...and that He shined his light on you, and He judged your posts as to truthfulness and attitude. The results were that your truthfulness and attitude came up short of the standard for believers. Specifically, you saw your own need to repent to those forum members you have offended. That you saw your own attitude and prayed that the Lord would change your heart.

Then, in the coming days, and future posts, we forum members would hopefully be able to see, as you begin to bear the fruit of your repentance, that you had a change of heart and attitude toward us.

This would go a long way in removing any logs which may exist in your own eye/s and perhaps would encourage and inspire each of us to go to the Lord, in like manner, as you did. It also would eliminate any noise of sounding brass and/or tinkling cymbals that may drown out your message.

Please accept this critique of your post as my response to the door you opened. To be honest and truthful, and perhaps blunt, this post came across to me as unnecessary. Your posts often throw the first tomato (as this one did), then comes the food fight.

So, having said that, in your call for us to examine ourselves, your call for us to change, you first, we will follow your lead.

I apologize, in advance, if my critique of your post is offensive to you. My message is actually the same as yours, just from a different perspective.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

I apologize, in advance, if my critique of your post is offensive to you. My message is actually the same as yours, just from a different perspective.

Nell

No offense taken Nell.

Appreciate your critique and the sincerity in which it was delivered.

Drake

[Cal]

I do not believe outer darkness is for eternally saved believers. I believe outer darkness is another metaphor for perdition.

aron said that outer darkness is separation from the Lord. I agree with that. But Romans 8:38 says nothing can separate us from God's love. And 1 John 4:8 says God is love. So we cannot be separated from God's love, therefore we cannot be separated from God, therefore we cannot be in outer darkness.

The Bible approaches its warnings to us in many ways. Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body, but fear him who can throw you into hell. This was a general warning to everyone. But does that mean that God will throw believers into hell? No, but it does mean we should still fear the one who can, because he means business. So when approaching these types of warnings, we have to see there is some crossover. We are given a general word, but which can be taken differently by believers and unbelievers. Believers should fear the one that can cast people into hell, but they should not fear that they themselves will be cast into hell. But unbelievers should fear both.

I believe there are going to be rewards or lack thereof for each of God's people based on their faithfulness. But I do not believe there is going to be any separation from God. The Bible talks about being "beaten with stripes." But I think the stripes will be the regret felt from missing opportunities, not from some kind of severe deprivation in the kingdom age. And I certainly don't believe believers can be "touched by the second death." That word is to Smyrna, the suffering church, which was facing death everyday. Jesus was saying to them, "Don't worry about the first death, because you can't suffer the second death." He wasn't saying be fearful of facing the second death. That just doesn't fit in with the characteristic and example of that particular church. It doesn't make sense that Jesus would warn a faithful church about being in danger of the second death.

Do I think faithfulness is important? Absolutely. But Paul put it in terms of seeking a prize, not of avoiding a punishment.

Let's be perfectly frank here. Witness Lee abused these biblical warnings to control people. Even Drake's "warning" in post #349, for whatever else it he might hope it is, is this kind of tactic, learned from Lee. We should never invoke God's warnings about faithfulness to exert control over people. That's abuse, and one Lee regularly engaged in.

[HERn]

Hey Male Duck, I've got a warning for you, and it's from a genuine, verified, self-sacrificing Apostle that never ran a recreational vehicle manufacturing scheme or allowed his sons to run roughshod over the churches he established.

Galatians 1:8–9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[Cal]

Only being traumatized by fear can explain the severe denial some LCers have about the failures and abuses of Lee and his movement. A person with genuine positive confidence about his beliefs would not need to stonewall about such things. In fact, he would welcome criticism as an opportunity to clear the air. But LCers don't do that. That's fear-based, not love-based, behavior.

This fear has been engineered by the LC misusing the Lord's warnings about such things as "outer darkness."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Only being traumatized by fear can explain the severe denial some LCers have about the failures and abuses of Lee and his movement. A person with genuine positive confidence about his beliefs would not need to stonewall about such things. In fact, he would welcome criticism as an opportunity to clear the air. But LCers don't do that. That's fear-based, not love-based, behavior.

Glad to see you post again, Igzy.

Brother Drake has long since decided never to respond to my posts because I also address "the failures and abuses of Lee and his movement."

My personal feeling is that those senior LC'ers like Drake who have long witnessed the "the failures and abuses of Lee and his movement," have shipwrecked their conscience. (I Timothy 1.19)

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Glad to see you post again, Igzy.

Brother Drake has long since decided never to respond to my posts because I also address "the failures and abuses of Lee and his movement."

My personal feeling is that those senior LC'ers like Drake who have long witnessed the "the failures and abuses of Lee and his movement," have shipwrecked their conscience. (I Timothy 1.19)

With all due respect to Drake, he reminds me of Vladimir Pozner, the Western-educated Soviet spokesman who, during the Cold War, was the voice of the Soviet Union in American. Pozner was erudite, telegenic and likable. He spoke with a perfect American accent. He seemed, superficially at least, moderate and reasonable. But in fact, he was a hard-nosed apologist for the Evil Empire.

Once the Soviet Union fell, Pozner was free from his former dominators, and he soon confessed that what he did was wrong. "What I was doing was propaganda" he admitted openly. And that's what Drake is doing.

Pozner finally made peace with the truth. Like LCers, he was driven by fear of reprisal. We can only hope the same freedom awaits the LC propagandists, for their sakes, and everyone else's.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

With all due respect to Drake, he reminds me of Vladimir Pozner, the Western-educated Soviet spokesman who, during the Cold War, was the voice of the Soviet Union in American. Pozner was erudite, telegenic and likable. He spoke with a perfect American accent. He seemed, superficially at least, moderate and reasonable. But in fact, he was a hard-nosed apologist for the Evil Empire.

Once the Soviet Union fell, Pozner was free from his former dominators, and he soon confessed that what he did was wrong. "What I was doing was propaganda" he admitted openly. And that's what Drake is doing.

Pozner finally made peace with the truth. Like LCers, he was driven by fear of reprisal. We can only hope the same freedom awaits the LC propagandists, for their sakes, and everyone else's.

Brother Drake is just fine with me. It's no different than relating with Southern Baptist's - my family.

And I gather news from the web, so seeing past propaganda is an unfortunate daily practice.

The only problem I have with bro Drake is that he can't open up and tell us what his thing is out here. Hanging with exLCer's might be entertaining to him ... or he could be paid for doing it.

We don't know, and he ain't telling. But lots of members find a need to hide behind anonymity.

And I think it's healthy to see from his perspective. But if I remember correctly, Lee called that being open like a trash can. So being out here bro Drake is perchance being open like a trash can.

So kudos to bro Drake.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

So kudos to bro Drake.

I have no problem personally with Drake, and I don't think I'm "better" than him. I'm just telling it like I see it. I can do no more, and should do no less.

Pozner wasn't a bad person. He was just surviving. That's how I see things here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

With all due respect to Drake, he reminds me of Vladimir Pozner, the Western-educated Soviet spokesman who, during the Cold War, was the voice of the Soviet Union in American.

Continuing with your Soviet-LC themes, I consider myself somewhat like Whitaker Chambers. As a young man he was completely disenchanted with western capitalism, with all the excesses of the 20's becoming the depression of the 30's. The idealisms of Marx and Lenin captured his heart, viewing them to be the future of the world, solving man's every problem, and providing a glorious future to replace "poor, poor, capitalism."

Then the news of Stalin's purges at headquarters, forced WC into a serious period of soul searching. The apparent beauty of the communist ideals were merely fronts for totalitarian despots. WC's journey led him to Christ, and to risk his own life exposing other top level spies in FDR's socialist administration, notably Alger Hiss. WC's autobiography Witness became one of the most influential books Ronald Reagan ever read, and crucial insight for his battle to take down the Evil Empire.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I do not believe outer darkness is for eternally saved believers. I believe outer darkness is another metaphor for perdition.

aron said that outer darkness is separation from the Lord. I agree with that. But Romans 8:38 says nothing can separate us from God's love. And 1 John 4:8 says God is love. So we cannot be separated from God's love, therefore we cannot be separated from God, therefore we cannot be in outer darkness.

The Bible approaches its warnings to us in many ways. Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body, but fear him who can throw you into hell. This was a general warning to everyone. But does that mean that God will throw believers into hell? No, but it does mean we should still fear the one who can, because he means business. So when approaching these types of warnings, we have to see there is some crossover. We are given a general word, but which can be taken differently by believers and unbelievers. Believers should fear the one that can cast people into hell, but they should not fear that they themselves will be cast into hell. But unbelievers should fear both.

I believe there are going to be rewards or lack thereof for each of God's people based on their faithfulness. But I do not believe there is going to be any separation from God. The Bible talks about being "beaten with stripes." But I think the stripes will be the regret felt from missing opportunities, not from some kind of severe deprivation in the kingdom age. And I certainly don't believe believers can be "touched by the second death." That word is to Smyrna, the suffering church, which was facing death everyday. Jesus was saying to them, "Don't worry about the first death, because you can't suffer the second death." He wasn't saying be fearful of facing the second death. That just doesn't fit in with the characteristic and example of that particular church. It doesn't make sense that Jesus would warn a faithful church about being in danger of the second death.

Do I think faithfulness is important? Absolutely. But Paul put it in terms of seeking a prize, not of avoiding a punishment.

Let's be perfectly frank here. Witness Lee abused these biblical warnings to control people. Even Drake's "warning" in post #349, for whatever else it he might hope it is, is this kind of tactic, learned from Lee. We should never invoke God's warnings about faithfulness to exert control over people. That's abuse, and one Lee regularly engaged in.

When I said "separation from God" I was thinking of Peter, out there alone in the dark, weeping bitterly. But Jesus told Peter that he had prayed for him, and the Father had heard, and Peter would turn back to the light. So encouraging. God's love and Christ's intercession are stronger than our failures. "What can separate us from the love of God?"

I'll repeat a point I made earlier, because it's so worth repeating: I see Peter as Everyman. He's so well-documented in the NT because he's representative of the twelve, and us all. Blunder after blunder. But God overcomes. How can we not be encouraged, and hopeful?

And yes, we need to remind ourselves to be respectful. But we also need to call out ideas that deserve no respect, ideas that cause believers to lord over one another, to judge and threaten one another. If Lee was so concerned about "that solemn moment", then why did he borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars of church-goers' $$ to line his children's pockets? And then when it all went south, trying to railroad the investors by telling them, "consider it a donation"? Who are Lee & crew to threaten others with God's judgment?

[ChristMyLife]

The Bible is the Word of God and we must take heed to it. Even IF supposed leaders and teachers misuse the Word of God for their own selfish purposes, or simply do not know how to interpret Scripture, we must not then throw away the Bible’s sound doctrine, especially when it contains solemn warnings. We risk great loss if we disregard our Lord’s words of warning about “outer darkness” simply because others have abused the teaching.

One of the places this term—“outer darkness”—is used is in the parable of Matt. 22:1-14, a parable using the scene of the “wedding breakfast.” Below I provide a link to a sound exposition of this parable by the able and godly teacher, G. H. Lang. All threats of “outer darkness” aimed at keeping saints loyal to the “LR” are to be rejected as misuse of Scripture. The “outer darkness” in this parable can only apply to disciples who are disobedient to CHRIST, not disobedient to certain leaders or movements. The gaining of the 1,000 year kingdom reward, or the loss thereof, hinges upon our loyalty to Christ Himself, His Word, and His genuine working in our lives.

I beg you to forget any threats from those who want you to follow them. Remember the words of Paul concerning our sole loyalty: And the context of these verses is directly related to false apostles who were trying to lead the believers astray after themselves.

(2Co 11:2) For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
(2Co 11:3) But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

HERE it the link to the parable in Matt. 22:1-14.
http://www.seekersofchrist.org/LANG/wedding.html

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ChristMyLife

The Bible is the Word of God and we must take heed to it. Even IF supposed leaders and teachers misuse the Word of God for their own selfish purposes, or simply do not know how to interpret Scripture, we must not then throw away the Bible’s sound doctrine, especially when it contains solemn warnings. We risk great loss if we disregard our Lord’s words of warning about “outer darkness” simply because others have abused the teaching.

Yes, amen. Another 2 very clear parables are in Matthew 25:1-30 concerning the 10 virgins meeting the Bridegroom and the slaves entrusted by the Master. Clearly they are believers, but the 5 foolish virgins miss the wedding feast, and the slothful slave is called evil and is punished. Yet the prudent virgins and the faithful slaves receive a reward.

He who has an ear let him hear .....

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes, amen. Another 2 very clear parables are in Matthew 25:1-30 concerning the 10 virgins meeting the Bridegroom and the slaves entrusted by the Master. Clearly they are believers, but the 5 foolish virgins miss the wedding feast, and the slothful slave is called evil and is punished. Yet the prudent virgins and the faithful slaves receive a reward.

He who has an ear let him hear .....

And the Lord tells the faithful servants, "Well done good and faithful servant! You were faithful in a few things . . . enter into the joy of your Lord!" It's like in Hebrews chapter 11, the so-called "Hall of Faith." Those ones were just like us and blew it a lot, but what is recorded are the few times they showed faith and trusted Him - that's what's important to God and that's what the Holy Spirit records there!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And the Lord tells the faithful servants, "Well done good and faithful servant! You were faithful in a few things . . . enter into the joy of your Lord!" It's like in Hebrews chapter 11, the so-called "Hall of Faith." Those ones were just like us and blew it a lot, but what is recorded are the few times they showed faith and trusted Him - that's what's important to God and that's what the Holy Spirit records there!

Yes and we need that extra oil in our vessel. The more oil, the more faithful.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes and we need that extra oil in our vessel. The more oil, the more faithful.

Well, there are many views as to who the 10 virgins actually are. If you read my post from awhile back, I point out that I think they are believers, because they are all virgins (pure) and have oil (Spirit) in their lamps. However, I'm not as dogmatic about their exact identity as I used to be . . . (a few think, with some merit, that they are actually Jewish believers)

The main point, irrregardless [sic], is BE READY!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well, there are many views as to who the 10 virgins actually are. If you read my post from awhile back, I point out that I think they are believers, because they are all virgins (pure) and have oil (Spirit) in their lamps. However, I'm not as dogmatic about their exact identity as I used to be . . . (a few think, with some merit, that they are actually Jewish believers)

The main point, irrregardless [sic], is BE READY!

There is no difference between a Jewish believer and a Gentile believer.

[OBW]

It is hard to make everything in this parable tie together. We tend to insist on either a kind of purgatory for the foolish virgins, or an Arminian understanding of salvation (salvation can be lost).

And I will be the first to say that the Calvinist position can only be arrived at through ignoring contrary passages (or pulling a "Lee" and arguing some overriding principle means that the contrary passages must mean something else). But the Arminian position also has problems with passages, therefore is not simply the correct answer.

I have been on both sides of this issue during my years as a Christian and am now convinced that the only value in arguing it is to argue who is in and who is out (in terms of alleged heresy). But the line is drawn in a muddy bog and is therefore unimportant. (I will say that I have a significant problem with Calvinism, per se, but not necessarily to the extent of buying into Arminianism. Suffice it to say that even John 3:16 says "whosoever believeS," not "whosoever believeD." But this is another discussion to have somewhere else.)

As someone said, the point seems to be to be ready at all times. While the second coming may still be days, years, even Millennia away, the time of reckoning for each of us is, at most, only some years away. I would suggest that the point of the parable is not to support loss of salvation, or cause disputes over unstated doctrines, but to imply that there is a cost —of unspecified nature — to not being ready. Everything else is to over-milk the metaphors/parable.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

As someone said, the point seems to be to be ready at all times. While the second coming may still be days, years, even Millennia away, the time of reckoning for each of us is, at most, only some years away. I would suggest that the point of the parable is not to support loss of salvation, or cause disputes over unstated doctrines, but to imply that there is a cost —of unspecified nature — to not being ready. Everything else is to over-milk the metaphors/parable.

I think there is reason to believe, according to 2 Peter 3:8-10*, that when the last one is saved who can be, then the Father will say to the Son, "It is time."

*"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief."

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

As someone said, the point seems to be to be ready at all times. While the second coming may still be days, years, even Millennia away, the time of reckoning for each of us is, at most, only some years away. I would suggest that the point of the parable is not to support loss of salvation, or cause disputes over unstated doctrines, but to imply that there is a cost —of unspecified nature — to not being ready. Everything else is to over-milk the metaphors/parable.

I agree with this. Obviously it's in our nature to want to play down any possible punishment. But the opposite error is to overplay those possibilities, to the point of obsession with them. We think if we can nail down the exact consequences, then we can control them. So we try to figure out what missing the marriage feast means. Is it for the whole 1000 years? Is for only part? In a perverse way it can become trying to figure out what we can get away with.

In the end, though, I think any displeasure from the Lord is going to be the worst thing we can experience. So we should seek to please him--not to earn our way into anything, but simply to be faithful. And if we truly love him, we should naturally seek to be faithful.

Suffice to know that he means it when he tells us to be obedient. Take care of that and you'll have no problem, I should think.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

We think if we can nail down the exact consequences, then we can control them. So we try to figure out what missing the marriage feast means. Is it for the whole 1000 years? Is for only part? In a perverse way it can become trying to figure out what we can get away with.

The next question is whether the 1,000 years is something actual or something metaphorical. When you recognize the nature of the whole writing of Revelation, it is not so clear that there are any of the things as identifiable phenomenon. But there is significant spiritual significance.

Same should be applied to this parable. There is surely a cost for not having the lamps full of oil. But what that means is not stated. The importance is not what goes wrong, but keeping things right.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

There is surely a cost for not having the lamps full of oil. But what that means is not stated. The importance is not what goes wrong, but keeping things right.

And this is pretty much where I have landed as of late. That is, don't get all wrapped around the axle trying to figure out exact details, which can be a monumental distraction, and instead focus on Him! (which, of course, is - to say the least - most scriptural)

[ZNPaaneah]

Many of the toxic waste dumps will take 1,000 years to fully clean up. So the matter of "restoration of all things" will almost certainly be 1,000 years.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Many of the toxic waste dumps will take 1,000 years to fully clean up. So the matter of "restoration of all things" will almost certainly be 1,000 years.

And we might be here pre-rapture for 5 times that, therefore the possibility that man can get that one problem right and corrected without a post-rapture 1,000 years.

And we are dealing with a God who is capable of restoring all things right now — including toxic waste dumps — and requires no time.

So the answer is essentially irrelevant.

The point is not to assert that the answer is "here," or "there," but to recognize that there is more to following Christ than salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. And that there is a cost to failures at following. And a cost to not following at all. Jesus spoke of the present generation not dying. John said "what must soon take place." Even in metaphorical terms, the typical reader would have presumed that it was probably their lifetime. While that turned out to be untrue (except to note that at each one's death, the day of reckoning has occurred), it is still a warning to us today. Whatever all those metaphors in Revelation and in those particular parables actually means (and even whether each one has a specific event tied to them, or are just alternate ways to catch our attention) should not matter. The warnings are to drive us to consider what we will do about our living now, not how to figure out what is to come then.