1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Can you clarify, Raptor? My position is that I don't believe some believers are present with the Lord at the time they leave their bodies whilst some are placed in 1,000 years of outer darkness. I don't see scripture supporting this LC teaching. ZNP agrees with that peculiar doctrine, so I was wondering if he believes some believers only temporarily are with the Lord posthumously, or how he reconciles 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord' with that teaching. It seems to contradict with this word.

22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

The dead in Christ rise first, then those of us who remain. So the idea that when we die we are in Christ is consistent that after that we are also raised to stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

Also, even in this section Paul says it is more necessary for him to remain with the believers for their progress and joy in the faith. Why? I would say that is because we all are still "working out our own salvation".

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The dead in Christ rise first, then those of us who remain. So the idea that when we die we are in Christ is consistent that after that we are also raised to stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

Also, even in this section Paul says it is more necessary for him to remain with the believers for their progress and joy in the faith. Why? I would say that is because we all are still "working out our own salvation".

So those believers who died before Christ's return will spend X number of years with Christ regardless of certain actions that, one Christ returns, will get them 1000 years in outer darkness?

[JJ]

I’m a Johnny Come Lately to this thread.

I recall Witness Lee saying that he had picked up a lot of his teachings related to this topic from Robert Govett, G.H. Lang, and others who’s names I don’t remember. Schoettle Publishing https://www.schoettlepublishing.com/ sells books that may provide answers to those looking for biblical basis (or not) of Witness Lee’s teachings.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

So those believers who died before Christ's return will spend X number of years with Christ regardless of certain actions that, one Christ returns, will get them 1000 years in outer darkness?

This whole disconnect with dying and being immediately with Christ v raising from the dead at his 2nd coming has always perplexed me.

I know that some say that our time with him before that day is strictly spiritual, with no body. But I am not sold on it.

Alternately, it could be that at the resurrection we are then with Christ and what intervenes is what might be described as limbo. Therefore, as far as we can tell, it is immediate.

I can find nothing that makes one or the other correct. So I basically stay out of it. Which it is (or some other alternative) has no bearing on now, or on eternity. And to get to eternity, you need to deal with now. If I deal with now, I eventually get to then and it will be what it will be. It is not a part of my statement of faith (and shouldn't be part of anyone's). When it comes to minor issues, this one is a minor among minors.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

I can find nothing that makes one or the other correct. So I basically stay out of it. Which it is (or some other alternative) has no bearing on now, or on eternity. And to get to eternity, you need to deal with now. If I deal with now, I eventually get to then and it will be what it will be. It is not a part of my statement of faith (and shouldn't be part of anyone's). When it comes to minor issues, this one is a minor among minors.

Agreed! The majoring on the major is - BE READY!

[Raptor]

There are several issues that I cannot resolve, mainly because the word does not seem to go into that much detail.

1.) there is no clear verse or passages that define outer darkness lasting 1,000 years specifically. The idea is built on a couple of assumptions.

2.) there is no teaching that attempts to balance out the 1,000 year discipline with the possibility that there would be relative punishments, that is, one 273 years, another 750, another 493, depending on the condition of each believer.

(Actually I was in a conference with Benson Phillips speaking and as a side note while he was mentioning the 1,000 years he said something like, "....1,000 years or if one gets 500 years, or whatever the number...". Something like that, specifically alluding to the possibility of some relative number or years. I remember how the audience reacted audibly with "what?....", and "oooohhhh wow" and "huh....?". There were obvious reactions, surprised looks and such all over. First and only time I ever heard that in the Recovery.)

3.) The Bible does clearly say that dead believers will go to Paradise, but there are not many details about what happens there, except general stuff, like we are sleeping, that we are with the Lord, Lazarus was comforted by Abraham. There is no details about what our experience there might be or what happens for example to a really bad, backslidden believer when he goes to Paradise. Is he at peace, ashamed? (the judgment seat of Christ with rewards and disciplines is after we resurrect from Paradise).

[Sons to Glory!]

Welcome back, Raptor! What you posted seems fine, or at least I don't have much heart to go back & forth on all of the details any more. Because it seems some things are not clear in scripture and/or it purposely is not revealed to us. And any further revealing will be done by the HS (as all true revealing is!).

I just know there is a race and we should run it looking away unto Jesus and to win. To win means there is also something to loose. So, as with any goal, there is the plus of getting it and the potential loss of not getting it. And just as we don't really know or comprehend what the reward is, we also don't know what the loss fully is either.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Welcome back, Raptor! What you posted seems fine, or at least I don't have much heart to go back & forth on all of the details any more. Because it seems some things are not clear in scripture and/or it purposely is not revealed to us. And any further revealing will be done by the HS (as all true revealing is!).

I just know there is a race and we should run it looking away unto Jesus and to win. To win means there is also something to loose. So, as with any goal, there is the plus of getting it and the potential loss of not getting it. And just as we don't really know or comprehend what the reward is, we also don't know what the loss fully is either.

I recently listened to a portion of a message where Derek Prince addresses the issue of how the early church apostles were expecting the Lord to come back really soon. And how Jesus Himself says that He will come back quickly. Of course many mockers have attacked those ideas saying, "where is He? That was not fulfilled, look, 2000 years already...."

But what Prince mentions is that it is correct all the way until now for every believer. The Lord will come back quickly for each one of us, because even if we live a long life and then die, when we are dead in Paradise, Derek thinks we do not experience time, we are in an eternal realm. Then when we resurrect, we are back in time. So in our experience, we die and when we resurrect the first thing we see is the Lord, there is no time that has passed for us, so it ends up being pretty quick.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are several issues that I cannot resolve, mainly because the word does not seem to go into that much detail.

1.) there is no clear verse or passages that define outer darkness lasting 1,000 years specifically. The idea is built on a couple of assumptions.

That's right raptor!! In fact it is abundantly clear no scripture says outer darkness lasts for 1,000 years. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Outer darkness is mentioned 3 times and it is mentioned only in Matthew. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30

8:12:
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since studying the doctrine of dispensationalism, which makes total sense to me now and has clarified so many questions, I have learned and discovered that many passages especially in the gospels are addressed to the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Just because we converted gentiles read the gospels and the NT does not necessarily mean the subject matter is directed to us.

So in Matthew 8:12
Jesus speaking to the JEWS not to the church which has not been established tells them many are going to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To prove Jesus is not speaking to the gentiles, the gentiles knew nothing about the OT, nothing about Abe, Isaac and Jacob. They are not even in the picture! Jesus preached and revealed Himself to the Jews as Messiah. After Pentecost, Jesus is revealed to the gentiles through the Holy Spirit and Paul's teaching on Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Next. Jesus tells them they will be sitting in the Kingdom of heaven. Not until this past year did I know there is a difference between the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God.

Did the LC/LSM explain the difference? They did not when I was there.

The TLB (the Living Bible) translates vs 12 as this:
And many an Israelite—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment.”

The Kingdom of heaven (not the Kingdom of God) was prepared for the Israelites, the Jews. They are the ones who will be cast into outer darkness for rejecting their Messiah. For how long? It does not say? Will they be able to repent and be given another chance? I think so. I hope so. There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth but it does not say that the outer darkness is in the lake of fire. I might be wrong. What I do know is God is an extremely Merciful GOD. And His Mercy endures forever.

My thoughts, my opinion until I discover otherwise is that those Jews will experience outer darkness during the tribulation. OR perhaps during the thousand year reign, they THE ISRAELITES, THE JEWS will experience outer darkness. No member of the Blood washed church composed of both Jew and Gentile will experience the outer darkness presented in Matthew.

I hope this helps. It sure helped me !

Here is a you tube teaching by Gene Kim that explains the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God for anyone who is interested.
Blessings to all,
Carol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVIee2pp_g&t=2432s

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

That's right raptor!! In fact it is abundantly clear no scripture says outer darkness lasts for 1,000 years. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Outer darkness is mentioned 3 times and it is mentioned only in Matthew. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30

8:12:
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since studying the doctrine of dispensationalism, which makes total sense to me now and has clarified so many questions, I have learned and discovered that many passages especially in the gospels are addressed to the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Just because we converted gentiles read the gospels and the NT does not necessarily mean the subject matter is directed to us.

So in Matthew 8:12
Jesus speaking to the JEWS not to the church which has not been established tells them many are going to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To prove Jesus is not speaking to the gentiles, the gentiles knew nothing about the OT, nothing about Abe, Isaac and Jacob. They are not even in the picture! Jesus preached and revealed Himself to the Jews as Messiah. After Pentecost, Jesus is revealed to the gentiles through the Holy Spirit and Paul's teaching on Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Next. Jesus tells them they will be sitting in the Kingdom of heaven. Not until this past year did I know there is a difference between the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God.

Did the LC/LSM explain the difference? They did not when I was there.

The TLB (the Living Bible) translates vs 12 as this:
And many an Israelite—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment.”

The Kingdom of heaven (not the Kingdom of God) was prepared for the Israelites, the Jews. They are the ones who will be cast into outer darkness for rejecting their Messiah. For how long? It does not say? Will they be able to repent and be given another chance? I think so. I hope so. There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth but it does not say that the outer darkness is in the lake of fire. I might be wrong. What I do know is God is an extremely Merciful GOD. And His Mercy endures forever.

My thoughts, my opinion until I discover otherwise is that those Jews will experience outer darkness during the tribulation. OR perhaps during the thousand year reign, they THE ISRAELITES, THE JEWS will experience outer darkness. No member of the Blood washed church composed of both Jew and Gentile will experience the outer darkness presented in Matthew.

I hope this helps. It sure helped me !

Here is a you tube teaching by Gene Kim that explains the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God for anyone who is interested.
Blessings to all,
Carol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVIee2pp_g&t=2432s

Thanks for that Carol! I haven't watched the video yet, but I will.

I also heard an aged and respected brother speak a few years ago about how the 10 virgins were the Jews and not the church. We didn't know what to think of his speaking, and I just put it in the "Well Lord, I could be wrong about this passage - please show me" category.

So what do you make of the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 - also a Jewish one?

PS - Yes, God is infinitely merciful, but when working according to the law, He is really strict! So I wonder if the Jews, who reject Christ for the law, might be treated more severely, as it's their choice?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

That's right raptor!! In fact it is abundantly clear no scripture says outer darkness lasts for 1,000 years. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Outer darkness is mentioned 3 times and it is mentioned only in Matthew. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30

8:12:
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since studying the doctrine of dispensationalism, which makes total sense to me now and has clarified so many questions, I have learned and discovered that many passages especially in the gospels are addressed to the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Just because we converted gentiles read the gospels and the NT does not necessarily mean the subject matter is directed to us.

So in Matthew 8:12
Jesus speaking to the JEWS not to the church which has not been established tells them many are going to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To prove Jesus is not speaking to the gentiles, the gentiles knew nothing about the OT, nothing about Abe, Isaac and Jacob. They are not even in the picture! Jesus preached and revealed Himself to the Jews as Messiah. After Pentecost, Jesus is revealed to the gentiles through the Holy Spirit and Paul's teaching on Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Next. Jesus tells them they will be sitting in the Kingdom of heaven. Not until this past year did I know there is a difference between the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God.

Did the LC/LSM explain the difference? They did not when I was there.

The TLB (the Living Bible) translates vs 12 as this:
And many an Israelite—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment.”

The Kingdom of heaven (not the Kingdom of God) was prepared for the Israelites, the Jews. They are the ones who will be cast into outer darkness for rejecting their Messiah. For how long? It does not say? Will they be able to repent and be given another chance? I think so. I hope so. There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth but it does not say that the outer darkness is in the lake of fire. I might be wrong. What I do know is God is an extremely Merciful GOD. And His Mercy endures forever.

My thoughts, my opinion until I discover otherwise is that those Jews will experience outer darkness during the tribulation. OR perhaps during the thousand year reign, they THE ISRAELITES, THE JEWS will experience outer darkness. No member of the Blood washed church composed of both Jew and Gentile will experience the outer darkness presented in Matthew.

I hope this helps. It sure helped me !

Here is a you tube teaching by Gene Kim that explains the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God for anyone who is interested.
Blessings to all,
Carol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVIee2pp_g&t=2432s

Carol, you presented this idea much better than I did. I really am excited about the two different gospels, to the two different kingdoms. It sheds light abroad in my heart, in the word. I don't know how many Christian's know anything about this way to rightly divide the word. I know for me, too, this year is the first I ever heard of it. The book of James was panned by Lee, because it did not seem to match other portions of scripture, with its blend of works and faith. But I never saw it is addressed to another audience altogether, the twelve tribes! Bless you, sister.

[OBW]

First, this is off-topic, but relevant to this one as well as a lot of other things. I caught this in something CMW was saying about something else. . . .

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

. . . I have learned and discovered that many passages especially in the gospels are addressed to the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Just because we converted gentiles read the gospels and the NT does not necessarily mean the subject matter is directed to us.

I think that this is true in many more ways. Even if you find these things directed at the Jews of the day, there are other things that are written only for certain parts of current Christians. Without trying to get into all the possibilities, it seems clear to me that Jesus spoke differently to the 12 than to the larger group of regular followers, and to all of them differently than to the crowds (both the curious and those who believed and stayed where they were).

For example, he did not talk about servant leadership in contrast to the ways of the Jewish leaders with the idea that every Christian was to be a leader. That does not mean that we do not all need a servant's heart. But that particular teaching was for the disciples that were to become the leaders of the church as it got going. (And for the leaders of the church from that time to today.)

But we read the Bible as if it is generically written to every possible Christian in the same way for every possible purpose. Somehow we think that 1 Corinthians 12, discussing "gifts" is just about certain "spiritual" stuff. And even then we kind of think everything is for me.

So maybe we have no idea how to read the outer darkness metaphor. It could be that it only relates to someone else. But unless we are sure, it is wise to neither toss it aside nor to over-think it. Accept that there is reason to avoid the possible application of out darkness to ourselves. That is the way to deal with it. Rather than try to argue it away, act in such a manner that its "possible" application is not activated.