Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology

[ZNPaaneah]

No, The Bible begins by saying God is the creator, all things came into being through Him.

16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Now it is generally recognized by Bible expositors that the "thrones or dominions or principalities or powers" includes Satan, Hitler, Nero, and Stalin.

Likewise, I am not the one that says man has a free will, this is Bible 101. I am not aware of any fundamental teacher of the Bible that does not teach that God gave man a free will.

Since God, by definition is omnipotent and omniscient, that means everything that has happened has occurred under His authority and He was able to foresee it. Just read the book of Job if you have trouble with that. But since everyone has trouble with this I call it a mystery. You can google "the problem of evil" which is another name for this mystery.

Or as you so eloquently encapsulate the mystery "Can a loving God create Hitler?" If not are you saying there are two creators? Now that is idolatry and a heresy.

If it sounds impersonal and pantheistic you obviously are not hearing me clearly. I am simply embracing the word in John "In the beginning was the word..."

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No, The Bible begins by saying God is the creator, all things came into being through Him.

16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Now it is generally recognized by Bible expositors that the "thrones or dominions or principalities or powers" includes Satan, Hitler, Nero, and Stalin.

Likewise, I am not the one that says man has a free will, this is Bible 101. I am not aware of any fundamental teacher of the Bible that does not teach that God gave man a free will.

Since God, by definition is omnipotent and omniscient, that means everything that has happened has occurred under His authority and He was able to foresee it. Just read the book of Job if you have trouble with that. But since everyone has trouble with this I call it a mystery. You can google "the problem of evil" which is another name for this mystery.

Or as you so eloquently encapsulate the mystery "Can a loving God create Hitler?" If not are you saying there are two creators? Now that is idolatry and a heresy.

If it sounds impersonal and pantheistic you obviously are not hearing me clearly. I am simply embracing the word in John "In the beginning was the word..."

I don't know who those expositors you are referring to are but I would have to disagree with them. Scripture says God is good as is everything God created, it was good. That included all the ministering angels in Heaven before Satan sinned.

Satan, Hitler, and Stalin are not good therefore are not of God. It's not a mystery at all.

"thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" (Col. 1:16 KJV) is an over generalization and not specific to persons which leads me to conclude that God created the offices of lordship. It doesn't mean He created all those in past and future that will fill every role of lordship.

Speaking of omniscience and omnipotence, if God is all powerful doesn't that also imply He has the power to restrict Himself if he chooses? Isn't that what allows free-will to exist in the first place?... so God doesn't control every aspect of our lives and simply have us exist as automatons?

In Job, if God was all knowing all the time why does He appoint Satan as the accuser? Is it for God's entertainment that Satan runs back and forth between earth and God's throne? Or does God choose to restrict Himself for the sake of our free-will?

Isn't that part of the reason why people love the college experience? Because of the sense of freedom? Yet even though our parents are no longer looking over our shoulder in everything that we do, they first prepared us by instilling us with good values and then after we were on our own offered us a way to reach them even over long distances (phone, mail, internet, ect).

God is the same way, out of love and trust He allows that space so we don't feel smothered and controlled all the time. If we willingly allow Him in, He will always be there. if we don't, He will restrict Himself yet He left us with a conscience and a way to always reach Him if we choose. That of course being His son Jesus.

On the matter of two creators saying that humans can create a laptop, for instance, out of free-will isn't saying we are equal to God in that we can create life and matter from nothingness. It just means we can manipulate what's already available to us. But because we invent something out of raw materials originally created by God, doesn't mean God was responsible for the end result.

By saying God created all that is Hitler is saying that God created darkness. Darkness isn't something that was intentionally created by God, it's merely the absence of light. God created only the light (which was good) and then separated the light (which resulted in darkness). He did not create the darkness. Darkness is an absence and void.

Satan, Hitler, and Stalin partook of that darkness out of free-will. But because they did so, did not mean God was responsible for the result of their choices.

Saying God created all things past and future is saying that He created cancer, death, rape, and all other vile things. God has knowledge of the results of darkness and sin but those things were never a part of His heart, His mind, and His Word.

Finally to sum up the matter of free will, I see it as a marathon race. God has a birds-eye view of the entire race beginning to end. He can see the starting point and the finish line. He also established ahead of time 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finishes. Yet whatever happens in the middle and whomever eventually fills those positions is up to the individual and the free-will He grants them.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I don't know who those expositors you are referring to are but I would have to disagree with them. Scripture says God is good as is everything God created, it was good. That included all the ministering angels in Heaven before Satan sinned.

I see no conflict between what you and ZNP are saying.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I see no conflict between what you and ZNP are saying.

Jo S is becoming a Forum Iconoclast of sorts.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jo S is becoming a Forum Iconoclast of sorts.

We needed a "balancer!"

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I don't know who those expositors you are referring to are but I would have to disagree with them. Scripture says God is good as is everything God created, it was good. That included all the ministering angels in Heaven before Satan sinned.

So then you agree that God created Lucifer.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Satan, Hitler, and Stalin are not good therefore are not of God. It's not a mystery at all.

Got it. Not good is not created by God. Where did they come from?

Originally Posted by Jo S

"thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" (Col. 1:16 KJV) is an over generalization and not specific to persons which leads me to conclude that God created the offices of lordship. It doesn't mean He created all those in past and future that will fill every role of lordship.

Got it, God did not create everyone. Who then is this other creator you are alluding to?

Originally Posted by Jo S

Speaking of omniscience and omnipotence, if God is all powerful doesn't that also imply He has the power to restrict Himself if he chooses? Isn't that what allows free-will to exist in the first place?... so God doesn't control every aspect of our lives and simply have us exist as automatons?

In Job, if God was all knowing all the time why does He appoint Satan as the accuser? Is it for God's entertainment that Satan runs back and forth between earth and God's throne? Or does God choose to restrict Himself for the sake of our free-will?

Isn't that part of the reason why people love the college experience? Because of the sense of freedom? Yet even though our parents are no longer looking over our shoulder in everything that we do, they first prepared us by instilling us with good values and then after we were on our own offered us a way to reach them even over long distances (phone, mail, internet, ect).

God is the same way, out of love and trust He allows that space so we don't feel smothered and controlled all the time. If we willingly allow Him in, He will always be there. if we don't, He will restrict Himself yet He left us with a conscience and a way to always reach Him if we choose. That of course being His son Jesus.

Sorry, I missed what part of the discussion this last bit was referring to.

Originally Posted by Jo S

On the matter of two creators saying that humans can create a laptop, for instance, out of free-will isn't saying we are equal to God in that we can create life and matter from nothingness.

Fair enough, but whoever created Hitler, Stalin, and Nero, that is not a laptop, that is life and matter from nothingness.

Originally Posted by Jo S

It just means we can manipulate what's already available to us. But because we invent something out of raw materials originally created by God, doesn't mean God was responsible for the end result.

Oh, the old guns don't kill people, people kill people defense. I manufactured the gun, lobbied for all kinds of laws which make it very difficult to trace the gun and easy for it to be bought on the street in untraceable bills, and in fingerprint resistant casing so you don't leave fingerprints, but I'm not responsible for it being used to kill people or commit a crime. Got it.

Originally Posted by Jo S

By saying God created all that is Hitler is saying that God created darkness. Darkness isn't something that was intentionally created by God, it's merely the absence of light. God created only the light (which was good) and then separated the light (which resulted in darkness). He did not create the darkness. Darkness is an absence and void.

Nope, you didn't read my post carefully. I point out that by creating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil God made it so that the minute we disobey him (and all evil is rebellion against God) at that minute we are unable to destroy anything other than mortal flesh which compared to eternity is like destroying pixels on a video game. You can choose to have an evil heart and that will be revealed, but you cannot harm the soul or the spirit.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Satan, Hitler, and Stalin partook of that darkness out of free-will. But because they did so, did not mean God was responsible for the result of their choices.

They partook of the darkness? Where did it come from? Who created it?

Originally Posted by Jo S

Saying God created all things past and future is saying that He created cancer, death, rape, and all other vile things. God has knowledge of the results of darkness and sin but those things were never a part of His heart, His mind, and His Word.

Fair enough, those things occurred as a result of man choosing to disobey God. But God created a universe where man could make that choice, being omniscient He also foresaw that would happen. Which again, is why the tree of Knowledge is described as a tree created by God, a good tree, and one that was placed in the garden by God. That tree protects the creation from the potential evil in rebelling against God.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Finally to sum up the matter of free will, I see it as a marathon race. God has a birds-eye view of the entire race beginning to end. He can see the starting point and the finish line. He also established ahead of time 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finishes. Yet whatever happens in the middle and whomever eventually fills those positions is up to the individual and the free-will He grants them.

So then He is not Lord? Hitler can kill millions of people running this marathon and God is like "hands off" I only care about the finish line, not what takes place during the race?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I don't know who those expositors you are referring to are but I would have to disagree with them. Scripture says God is good as is everything God created, it was good. That included all the ministering angels in Heaven before Satan sinned.

John Gill
Ellicott
Benson — Because, in after times, false teachers would arise and affirm, some, that the world was made by angels; others, that it was made by an evil principle; the apostle may have been directed by the Spirit to declare, in the most express manner, that all things were created by God’s beloved Son, that the sincere might be preserved from these pernicious errors.

Barnes — There could not possibly be a more explicit declaration that the universe was created by Christ, than this. As if the simple declaration in the most comprehensive terms were not enough, the apostle goes into a specification of things existing in heaven and earth, and so varies the statement as if to prevent the possibility of mistake.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown

Matthew Poole — 2. In parallel places, the making and founding of the old creation is ascribed to Christ, both negatively and positively, John 1:3 Hebrews 1:3,10; not one thing is excepted, and therefore should not be restrained to men.

4. The apostle’s significant enumeration and distinction of things created, doth evidence that he understood the subject, the creation, in the most extensive and unlimited consideration of it. He reckons up material as well as immaterial things, and those in heaven, which needed no restoration, as well as those on earth, which did, being polluted with sin. Those angels who had not put off the honour of the first, did not belong to the new creation; having not divested themselves of their original integrity, they needed not to be reinvested with that they never lost: and devils cannot be ranked among new creatures, neither can wicked souls, Matthew 25:41 Revelation 22:15; neither are there new and old orders of angels; so that the dominion Christ is here (as elsewhere) asserted as founder of, is the whole, not only the new creation, Revelation 5:13.