Misrepresenting God: Delegated Authority (Nee)

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

I wanted to pull this thread forward again. Some interesting things are coming out, worth considering. I wrote this earlier on another thread:......

Nice find, Aron. I'm happy to see people are starting to understand and make these connections. Praise God!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Nice find, Aron. I'm happy to see people are starting to understand and make these connections. Praise God!

I settled this long ago, after walking away from Lee & Co. : I have no covering other than God Himself.

And to get to the real nitty-gritty of the NAR Dominionism look into Christian reconstructionism, and R. J. Rushdoony.

We've been there, and some still are. I think it's scary stuff.

And what happened to those Nicolaitans? You know : Nike/Victory over the laity ; conquerors of the lay people. In Revelation the Lord frowns on that. And Lee taught it that way.
(It may well have been the followers of Nicolas, deacon of the church of Jerusalem (sexual religious rites)- that's been proposed too.).

[byHismercy]

Thanks for this, Aron.

[aron]

From the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, by David W. Johnson and Jeff Vanvonderan.

Churches are meant to be safe places where spiritual leaders help and equip the members for the work of service. There are some churches, however, where leaders use their spiritual authority to control and dominate others, attempting to meet their own needs for importance, power, intimacy or spiritual gratification. Through the subtle use of the right "spiritual" words, church members are manipulated or shamed into certain behaviors or performance that ensnares in legalism, guilt and begrudging service. This is spiritual abuse, and the results can be shattering. Deeply ingrained spiritual codes of written and unwritten rules control and condemn, wounding believers' spirits and keeping them from the grace and joy of God's kingdom. Believers find themselves enslaved to a system, a leader, a standard of performance that saps true spiritual life. This is a message for Christians who feel they are spiritually abused and for those who might be causing it. Authors VanVonderen and Johnson address these important themes and point the way toward freedom: What are the abusive spiritual dynamics that can develop in a church? How do people get hooked into these abusive systems? What are the marks of false spiritual leadership and their impact on a congregation?

The good news is that we are not alone. Others have made it down these paths before, and some have made it out. The Lord has left us with guides, on the way home. Praise the Lord.

[Nell]

The following quote is from our ol' friend, Matt Anderson, and his Laymans Fellowship website. It's a perspective I had not considered until recently and am more and more convinced of its merits. In particular, three "issues". 1) The verses in Eph. 4, 2) new (to me) perspective on the implications of these verses, and 3) authority church leaders do not have over believers.

1) Ephesians 4:11-16 – And he himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all reach the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to a measure of the maturity of the fulness of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed about by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching, by the trickery of people, by craftiness with reference to the scheming of deceit. But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow into him with reference to all things, who is the head, Christ, from whom the whole body, joined together and held together by every supporting ligament, according to the working by measure of each single part, the growth of the body makes for the building up of itself in love.

2) This has an amazing implication. The real work of the most notable gifted ones is to make themselves less necessary.
(What???? Less necessary?)

3) "The authority from God wielded by believers is not fully transferred to believers. They do not get to take ownership of the authority in the same manner as a Government Authority with a Citizen or with a Parent with a Child. This does not mean we cannot wield any authority from God. As believers we can transmit God’s authority through our speaking and our actions, but this does not give us control of God’s authority. It also does not give us control over other believers. We simply wield God’s authority for the limited window in which we are acting according to His will.

Let’s clarify what kind of authority that this author believes leading ones do not have:

* Leaders do not have “delegated” authority where authority is passed from God to the leader in such a way that the leader can act according to their own will (while claiming to represent God) apart from being fully in line with God’s point of view and approach to the non-leading believers.

* Leaders do not gain personal authority over another believer as a result of any type of spiritual gifting.

* Paul does speak of some authority vested in Him from the Lord. The real question is whether it is “delegated” authority from God or authority from God that can only be wielded in full agreement with God’s will." (Emphasis added)

I think this explains a lot about what's wrong with the Lee/Nee teaching on "delegated" authority, and its continuing heavy-handed misuse by the LC leadership today.

What do you think? This gives perspective to Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power (authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Nell

Note that this thread is a golden oldie...it's been around since 2/2016.

[OBW]

Nell,

While I am sure that I disagree in small parts here and there, the overall approach of Matt's premise seems sound.

I think that the real problem is the view of people as to what the "positions" are for. And for the most part, the Ephesians passage lays that out most clearly. They are called and given tasks for the purpose of helping the rest of us attain what Christ has commanded. In that sense, they do stand-in for God/Christ. But not so much as authorities, but as helpers.

Yes, they do have a kind of authority. But it is the authority of what they have learned that we have not learned, not an authority of hierarchical control, such as a government or military position.

And to underscore the point of what kind of authority they have, I like to look at Paul in a different way. And there is no better place to look at it than in his first letter to the Corinthians. In that letter, he tells them a lot. But he does in in a way of pleading with them coupled with a lot of discussion of the reasons that he is saying what he is saying and that they should seriously consider what he is saying. From giving up the divisive preferences, to how they practice the Lord's Table, to their seeking after certain gifts, to how they run their meetings, to the significance of the Lord's return and our receiving of a new body in resurrection. Even in the discussion of the man who was openly engaged in serious sexual sin. In no case did Paul demand their obedience. He did not suggest that their salvation was on the line or their status as a church. Instead, he pleaded and reasoned with them on each point.

I do think that point #2 — that they make themselves less necessary — is a nuanced point. At some level, they will never be unnecessary. And there are at least 2 reasons for this.

First, unless the church ceases to increase and all die away, there will always be some (all?) who will need help in their next steps on their way to the full-grown man that is spoken of in the scripture. Despite our increased abilities through significant literacy to somewhat self-feed in spiritual terms, unless we are able to avoid all worldly needs — jobs, families, etc. — most of us will always require some amount of spiritual direction. Yes, there was one place where John said we had no need that anyone teach us. But even in saying that, John was teaching and the understanding of that passage as a complete dismissal of teachers of the word is far beyond what I can only suggest is the obvious intent.

Second, there are many who have assessed the claim by some, such as Nee and Lee, that Paul was saying that the "big E" evangelist was simply there to create a lot of "little e" evangelists, and so on, and have found it wanting. Instead, they are of the general opinion that the entire life of the Christian should be "works of ministry" and that the notion that there are certain activities that are ministry and others that are not is incorrect. So even for the more seasoned Christian, there will always be the need for growth in whatever our aspects of ministry are that arise in doing our jobs, driving our cars, interacting in the marketplace, and so on. And we will not simply be doing it on our own. Evangelists do not create evangelists. They do the basics of bringing converts into the flock in starting the building process. Pastors (shepherds) take care of the flock, leading them to better pastures, tending to their wounds, and so forth. Teachers (not just what the pithy saying implies — those who cannot do) are there to continue our education and training. Each of these is always important to even the most well-developed among us. It is like the top professional golfers who continually learn from others who could not beat them in any round of the game.

The examples are not complete. But I think they make the point. Those that God supplies for our benefit will always be there. Just like the original disciples who were slowly replaced by others as they died, there are always those God calls and sends to us. We do well to see them and give them the proper respect they are due. Not as if some kind of authoritarian, but as authorities on their "subjects." As helpers on our journey of life.

But their part is not as governing officials or even local beat cops. They are servants to us to help us along the way. They may bring light to our failures and suggest what is necessary for correction. They may even reprove us at times. But never like the leaders of the world.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

Nell,

While I am sure that I disagree in small parts here and there, the overall approach of Matt's premise seems sound.

I think that the real problem is the view of people as to what the "positions" are for. And for the most part, the Ephesians passage lays that out most clearly. They are called and given tasks for the purpose of helping the rest of us attain what Christ has commanded. In that sense, they do stand-in for God/Christ. But not so much as authorities, but as helpers.

Yes, they do have a kind of authority. But it is the authority of what they have learned that we have not learned, not an authority of hierarchical control, such as a government or military position.

That various positions and some amount of authority exists among the brothers is not issue to me, e.g., Eph. 4. Local Church leadership, through WLee has usurped whatever godly authority that exists as their own personal authority. They lord it over believers and demand absolute obedience. Hence, Matt's point: "The authority from God wielded by believers is not fully transferred to believers. They do not get to take ownership of the authority in the same manner as a Government Authority with a Citizen or with a Parent with a Child. ..." Each "position" in the LC seems to contain some degree of "delegated authority", increasing each step up the heirarchy.

And to underscore the point of what kind of authority they have, I like to look at Paul in a different way. And there is no better place to look at it than in his first letter to the Corinthians. In that letter, he tells them a lot. But he does in in a way of pleading with them coupled with a lot of discussion of the reasons that he is saying what he is saying and that they should seriously consider what he is saying. ...

I never heard pleading or "discussion". What I heard was "take it or leave...you rebel."

I do think that point #2 — that they make themselves less necessary — is a nuanced point. At some level, they will never be unnecessary. And there are at least 2 reasons for this.

There is a difference between "less necessary" and "unnecessary". Matt did not indicate that those "in authority" would become unnecessary at some point. However, in a family, as the family ages and grows, eventually as I experienced with my own parents, I became the caregiver to my parents as they aged. This had nothing to do with position or authority, but I became "equipped" to care for my parents as well as younger, growing, family members.

As believers mature, they have less need of apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers but the believers grow into the roles or position/s of "helpers" as they mature.

I believe this is akin to your next point...

First, unless the church ceases to increase and all die away, there will always be some (all?) who will need help in their next steps on their way to the full-grown man that is spoken of in the scripture. Despite our increased abilities through significant literacy to somewhat self-feed in spiritual terms, unless we are able to avoid all worldly needs — jobs, families, etc. — most of us will always require some amount of spiritual direction. Yes, there was one place where John said we had no need that anyone teach us. But even in saying that, John was teaching and the understanding of that passage as a complete dismissal of teachers of the word is far beyond what I can only suggest is the obvious intent.
...
The examples are not complete. But I think they make the point. Those that God supplies for our benefit will always be there. Just like the original disciples who were slowly replaced by others as they died, there are always those God calls and sends to us. We do well to see them and give them the proper respect they are due. Not as if some kind of authoritarian, but as authorities on their "subjects." As helpers on our journey of life.

But their part is not as governing officials or even local beat cops. They are servants to us to help us along the way. They may bring light to our failures and suggest what is necessary for correction. They may even reprove us at times. But never like the leaders of the world.

"The real work of the most notable gifted ones is to make themselves less necessary." ... rather than swing the "delegated authority" bat, the gifted ones pass along their gift.

I think we are mostly on the same page.

Nell