Erroneous Teaching of Lee Concerning Natural Affection

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Are you speaking abstractly or specifically?

Both. the problem starts at leadership and then works it way down into breeding a culture of victimhood. My broad brush stroke was meant to be broad, it's a big picture.

I understand most members of LSM and GLA churches weren't directly involved in the leadership decisions which led to the quarantine, but many were. If you weren't then members on both sides can see themselves as victims however there's another perspective to consider.

It wasn't my fault that I was born into sin. I didn't have a say in that. As long as I continued to view myself as a victim of circumstance there was justification for my lack of repentance. Yet I had to repent. Whether or not I was ignorant I still partook of sin and was found guilty.

It's been 13 years since the quarantines yet no real changes to core doctrine made by leadership. If you're given the opportunity for a fresh start and to make change yet do nothing, accountability falls on you. So you can either change your ways or focus on the superficial and adopt a victim mentality/martyr complex to continue to justify your lack of repentance.

There's a difference between being a victim of circumstance and victimhood. Even if you've inherited a circumstance, it doesn't mean you have to stay a part of that circumstance. This goes for both sides. The problem wasn't coups or quarantines, it was false doctrine all along yet no attention is given to that by either side..As long as leadership willingly stays ignorant to that, then they won't understand what the real cause of their division is and many under them will continue to suffer.

Even if you've left completely, you may no longer be bound by the decisions of the Local Churches, but it doesn't change the fact that you partook of the doctrines and practices of the Local Churches.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Indignation about injustice can sometimes be confused with bitterness. I supposed the former can possibly lead to the latter, but it ain't necessarily so.

When there's partiality and a lack of accountability in indignation, that's when you know it's bitterness.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Both. the problem starts at leadership and then works it way down into breeding a culture of victimhood. My broad brush stroke was meant to be broad, it's a big picture.

Okay, you say you are talking specifically, but you are not being specific. WHO EXACTLY is playing the victim? What is your evidence? Do you know these people? Have you observed them firsthand? Please be more concrete and give some examples. I'm being honest here, I still don't know exactly what behavior you are talking about. And I still don't know how you want that behavior to change.

When there's partiality and a lack of accountability in indignation, that's when you know it's bitterness.

Again, where do you see such behavior displayed? Be specific.

Wanting justice for others and even oneself is not necessarily bad, as long as you let God meet it out. Recall Rev 6:10:

"They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?'"

These victims are pleading to God for justice. Are they partial? Are they unaccountable? Are they bitter? How do you know?

And the Bible is full of exhortations that we should seek justice for those who are oppressed and taken advantage of:

"Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow." Isaiah 1:17

"Thus says the LORD, 'Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor.'" Jeremiah 22:3

"Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute."
Psalm 82:3

"Open your mouth, judge righteously, And defend the rights of the afflicted and needy." Ps 31:9

"Thus has the LORD of hosts said, 'Dispense true justice and practice kindness.'" Zechariah 7:9

"The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern." Prov 29:7

These are verses we NEVER studied in the LR. And frankly I think they make them uncomfortable. Their whole culture of allowing oneself to be abused by an organization ignores them, as does their indifference to social justice.

One reason I ask is that we've had LR sympathizers come on this board and halfway admit that people have been abused there, but then they are quick to effectively advise "Get over it." Now I understand the need for putting things in healthy perspective to promote healing. But these advisers are more interested in lightening the load of criticism on the LR than they are with the healing of those abused. Their first priority is that the LR be preserved, all else is secondary, including people.

I understand that God commands us to turn the other cheek. But there is also Matt 18:15-17, in which, in his only mention of the practical local church in his ministry, Jesus chooses to point out that it is a place a person can go to for JUSTICE. I find that very interesting.

This is why I feel good about being a sheep dog.

[Cal]

"Thus says the LORD, 'Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor.'" Jeremiah 22:3

Assuming this applies to those victimized by the LR, how do we obey the command to do justice and righteousness and deliver them?

"Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy." Ps 31:9

How do we obey this command and open our mouths? Posting on this board seems a good start I would think.

"Reprove the ruthless" Isaiah 1:17

I imagine that someone who reproves the ruthless might sound a little bitter to somebody or other.

[Cal]

I recalled a scene from Driving Miss Daisy. At the end of the film, both Hoke and Daisy are quite old. He visits her in her senior home. They have this exchange.

Daisy: How are you?
Hoke: Oh... I'm doin' the best I can.
Daisy: (laughs) Me too.
Hoke: Well, I reckon that's 'bout all there is to it then.

The best we can do is all we can do. To me that's what not being bitter means. It means doing our best. Being bitter is a kind of giving up, a kind of quitting. It's hurting yourself to spite your circumstances or those who have hurt you.

That said, seeking justice is not necessarily being bitter.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

"Reprove the ruthless" Isaiah 1:17

I imagine that someone who reproves the ruthless might sound a little bitter to somebody or other.

Jesus was the one who reproved the ruthless. You and I are the ruthless. We are not God's avenging angels, however tempting it might seem when we survey the likes of Nee and Lee (and Chu, Dong et al).

I'm not going to defend Jo S, but what I see them doing is this, painting with a broad brush that applies to all. When Jesus came out of the desert, he opened his mouth and painted with a broad brush: Repent. That means you, me, Ohio, Jo S, Witness Lee and so forth. If we just focus on the wrongs of Lee and the Blendeds, a limitless treasure trove it seems, we might find ourselves here, six or eight years hence, unmoved. I don't think we want that. How do we all go forward in mutual learning?

There are forces behind the scenes, that manifest themselves in Lee and Chu and others. What are they? Are you and I affected? When Jo S pointed out the NAR that was a learning moment for me. Oh - hey - look at the delusion: "God needs an apostle. Might as well be me, since I have the idea". Sound familiar?

We can leave the LR, but to what? What next?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Bro, you are wasting your time looking for clarification. I tried. Thrice. I gave up.

It's always the Other Guy who's not clear, right Ohio? You are always too clear. That is what reminds me of Lee. He was always "too clear". The Other Guy with him was the one "not so clear". He once told us that he hadn't learnt anything from anyone for 45 years.

A discussion is a mutual learning experience. It isn't an extended monologue.

Originally Posted by aron

Opinions can be firmly, even resolutely held. But the core teaching of the Master is, Love one another. Give the other person's opinions the same respect that you give your own.

That last sentence may disqualify about 3/4 of my posts. I tend to disrespect ideas that don't seem well-founded. But I admit my ideas are tentative, provisional, and subject to change. But it's dogmatism that I can't stand.

Witness Lee had this tendency to say, "We must all see that..." No, dude, you must jump off a pier into the ocean. Only Jesus gives the "musts" and "oughts" and "should" and "need to" around here.

Back to the title of the thread: How many of my posts show evidence of a person with much "natural affection"? I think Igzy and Ohio are indignant that sheep are getting gnawed by wolves. That's good. But Jo S is challenging us all to go deeper, beyond the surface.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus was the one who reproved the ruthless. You and I are the ruthless. We are not God's avenging angels, however tempting it might seem when we survey the likes of Nee and Lee (and Chu, Dong et al

If God just wanted Jesus to reprove the ruthless he wouldn’t have commanded us to do it. I think your beliefs are getting in the way of what the Bible actually says .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

It's always the Other Guy who's not clear, right Ohio? You are always too clear. That is what reminds me of Lee. He was always "too clear". The Other Guy with him was the one "not so clear". He once told us that he hadn't learnt anything from anyone for 45 years.

aron, your comments here about me are unwarranted.

Jo S singled me out a couple times on this thread which I didn't understand.

I asked him for clarification so I could respond. He ignored my request.

I decided to let it go about the time Igzy began to dialog with him.

Igzy got a little perturbed too, so I told him not to expect much feedback.

I considered that unnecessary tension on a topic of "natural affection" seemed too ironic to continue with.

Then you hit me with a cheap shot. Pretty surprising. Was your password hacked, aron?

[Cal]

In the interest of taking the high ground, let me suggest that this thread has morphed into a very important topic for which I'm sure no one has all the answers. It could be summarized thusly:

What is the responsibility of Christians in responding to aberrant or abusive groups, ministries and leadership, particularly those which abuse authority to bully and control believers?

Given the many Old Testament verses exhorting God's people to defend the defenseless, stand up to oppressors and seek justice, do such commands carry over into the New Testament age and, and if so, how to we fulfill them?

Perhaps a new thread on this subject is in order? UntoHim, can you work your magic and transfer relevant posts to such a new thread?

I would very much like to discuss these ideas.

Thanks!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Cal

In the interest of taking the high ground, let me suggest that this thread has morphed into a very important topic for which I'm sure no one has all the answers. It could be summarized thusly:

What is the responsibility of Christians in responding to aberrant or abusive groups, ministries and leadership, particularly those which abuse authority to bully and control believers?

Given the many Old Testament verses exhorting God's people to defend the defenseless, stand up to oppressors and seek justice, do such commands carry over into the New Testament age and, and if so, how to we fulfill them?

Perhaps a new thread on this subject is in order? UntoHim, can you work your magic and transfer relevant posts to such a new thread?

I would very much like to discuss these ideas.

Thanks!

Was this ever done? (new thread on the topic Cal bolded?)

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

We can leave the LR, but to what? What next?

Participating on this board isn't all I do. It isn't even the main thing I do.

There are many ways to serve the Lord. All you have to do is pray about it and look around.

I'm not obsessed about the LR. I just feel God wants me to use my thinking, writing and debating skills to help shed some light on the movement. The more I do it the more I feel it's what he wants. I do pray about it. I don't think I'm just a loose cannon doing my own thing here.

Prayer is the key. Keep praying about how you serve the Lord. That gives him a way to guide and adjust you. One problem with the LR people is they never seem to actually pray about whether they should be there. In fact, I think they believe considering praying about it is a sign of weakness. I still remember the LR guy who told me, "I don't need to pray about it." Good luck with that attitude!

I feel warning people and supporting them is legitimate. If it comes across as confrontational at times, well that's just the nature of the situation. It's pretty hard to avoid when you feel a group is damaging believers.

I will say this: I feel everything we do here would be better and more effective if we all prayed more about it.