Erroneous Teaching of Lee Concerning Natural Affection

[awareness]

Brother Jo S Dr. Lily Hsu's book, exposing Nee's private sexual waywardness, brings Nee completely down. Turns out he loved not only natural affection, but the physical sort too.
Check out this thread :
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ily+hsu&page=4

[Jo S]

Last post here on this topic otherwise UntoHim will get upset with me.

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Jo S Dr. Lily Hsu's book, exposing Nee's private sexual waywardness, brings Nee completely down....

Awareness, my point wasn't to focus on the criticism of any person(s) or to balance out criticisms in general. It's to point out the glaringly obvious bias on the forum and find its meaning.

HERn, you said it all and I appreciate your transparency;

Originally Posted by HERn

As soon as the saints get tired of being abused Lee's kingdom will come crashing down.

This is the overwhelming agenda I see on this forum; to destroy Lee's kingdom, aka the LSM, all the while Nee and GLA go mostly unnoticed. This imbalance can't be explained away with "well, most don't have direct experience with Nee or Chu" when the fact is that many here have direct experience with the Chu influenced local churches and Nee's literature. Common sense tells me if the LSM is wiped off the face of the earth, then the very foundation of the Lord's Recovery is still left standing and not only that, but a new MOTA as well.

Ohio, what happened in 2006 was pure politics draped in bible-speak yet I have the feeling, like you, many here still buy into the martyrdom narrative GLA broadcasts hook, line, and sinker. And because of the conflict this belief creates, many are suffering. That's not to excuse LSM, they still spread the same false gospel.

I have no interest in politics, but others apparently do. I came here a year ago seeking advice and help for some friends but instead ran right into what seems like a proxy war instigated by some set on using this platform for settling scores.

And speaking of UntoHim; your forum is the only online community I know of that can serve in encouraging those coming out of the LC's. It's unfortunate that the politicking, which goes mostly unnoticed, largely hinders that potential.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ohio, what happened in 2006 was pure politics draped in bible-speak yet I have the feeling, like you, many here still buy into the martyrdom narrative GLA broadcasts hook, line, and sinker. And because of the conflict this belief creates, many are suffering. That's not to excuse LSM, they still spread the same false gospel.

I have no interest in politics, but others apparently do. I came here a year ago seeking advice and help for some friends but instead ran right into what seems like a proxy war instigated by some set on using this platform for settling scores.

Not sure what exactly you mean by proxy wars and the martyrdom narrative. Can you say more? Examples?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the overwhelming agenda I see on this forum; to destroy Lee's kingdom, aka the LSM, all the while Nee and GLA go mostly unnoticed. This imbalance can't be explained away with "well, most don't have direct experience with Nee or Chu" when the fact is that many here have direct experience with the Chu influenced local churches and Nee's literature. Common sense tells me if the LSM is wiped off the face of the earth, then the very foundation of the Lord's Recovery is still left standing and not only that, but a new MOTA as well.

LSM won't go down until the MOTA lie goes down. If the MOTA lie goes down, then the basis for a new MOTA will be dealt with as well.

This is why I usually speak against the false spiritual authority the LR uplifts.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

LSM won't go down until the MOTA lie goes down. If the MOTA lie goes down, then the basis for a new MOTA will be dealt with as well.

This is why I usually speak against the false spiritual authority the LR uplifts.

Yes, they are a set of dominoes, but I feel the main domino is the doctrine of the "ground of the church". If that goes down the basis for their MOTA doctrine also falls.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

Shame on Untohim. I say let you speak your peace to power.

Ok, I hold you accountable for this reply then.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not sure what exactly you mean by proxy wars and the martyrdom narrative. Can you say more? Examples?

Proxy meaning two opposing sides using Localchurchdiscussions.com as a battle ground for their political agendas. We saw that when Drake was active and I see it even now. As far as the martyr narrative, I already addressed that on Jo Casteel's open letter thread.

Originally Posted by Igzy

LSM won't go down until the MOTA lie goes down. If the MOTA lie goes down, then the basis for a new MOTA will be dealt with as well.

This is why I usually speak against the false spiritual authority the LR uplifts.

Igzy, I agree that speaking against false spiritual authority is important BUT I can't agree with the belief that it'll lead to the downfall of an organization. Many have spoken against the heresy of one man being the voice of God yet we still have a Pope. It's good to get the info out to help other's discern but that seems to be it when it comes to religion.

Jesus came not to condemn or destroy the world, he came to convinct us of sin so that we can repent and be saved. Shouldn't that be our heart as well?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Nee has been completely scrutinized.....Other than that what other issue is there to have with Nee?

My issue wasn't that Nee hasn't been scrutinized, it was that most arguments end at Lee/LSM when they can easily be traced back to Nee. But I get the sense it's better to end at Lee knowing DCP and LSMers reading through the forum will be more personally offended by it. I mean who wouldn't want to bring more life into the forum with a Drake comeback, right? The problem is that atmosphere I imagine keeps those that are more apprehensive from coming on board and sharing their stories. But maybe I'm just being too idealistic...

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

....As for GLA vying for martyrdom status my interest in the Blended's discipline of Titus Chu was the way in which it was done and the lack of a Biblical basis. I feel that action exposed the Blended's for what they are.

As for the Blended's discipline of Titus, I don't disagree with it being wrong. In the sphere of the Christian faith it would have been wrong but in politics that's just the name of the game. Blendeds cutting someone out for orchestrating a soft coup against their established leadership is politics. Titus bringing to light the sins of the LSM is no different then politicians using the sins of their opponents as leverage in elections yet both sides trying to justify their politics with the bible is equally wrong. That's the issue I have with holding movements like the Lord's Recovery up to scripture, it's seems to validate them more than anything else...Under it all you just won't find anything resembling biblical Christianity, rather you'll find a political machine strung together by strange occultic beliefs.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Other than that Ohio has been very explicit concerning Titus Chu's sins.

Jabs compared to the Mike Tyson left uppercut's Lee and LSM get here. Jabs are only good for points which leads me to believe either A) there exists bias and sentiment toward GLA. B) It's a lure to get Drake back. C) A little bit of both. D) None of the above and I've lost my mind. Definitely feeling like D) at the moment...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Jabs compared to the Mike Tyson left uppercut's Lee and LSM get here. Jabs are only good for points which leads me to believe either
A) there exists bias and sentiment toward GLA.

B) It's a lure to get Drake back.

C) A little bit of both.

D) None of the above and I've lost my mind. Definitely feeling like D) at the moment...

E) Jo S is trolling us

F) Jo S is drinking and posting

F) Jo S password has been hacked by DCP

G) Jo S is reincarnation of Bilbo

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

E) Jo S is trolling us

F) Jo S is drinking and posting

F) Jo S password has been hacked by DCP

G) Jo S is reincarnation of Bilbo

I may be out of touch, but I don't think Jo S is any of these things. I just feel he's not been clear. Cuz of that I can't quite nail down where he stands. Particularly his claim of imbalance on the forum. I might be unbalanced, some might say, but I don't see all the other members being that way.

It is true that there's way more exLCer's on the forum, than LCer's. If that's the imbalanced Jo S sees, he's right. But LCer's could fix that by joining ... except, they're scared of us.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ok, I hold you accountable for this reply then.........

YOU ROCK!!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Proxy meaning two opposing sides using Localchurchdiscussions.com as a battle ground for their political agendas. We saw that when Drake was active and I see it even now. As far as the martyr narrative, I already addressed that on Jo Casteel's open letter thread...
My issue wasn't that Nee hasn't been scrutinized, it was that most arguments end at Lee/LSM when they can easily be traced back to Nee. But I get the sense it's better to end at Lee knowing DCP and LSMers reading through the forum will be more personally offended by it. I mean who wouldn't want to bring more life into the forum with a Drake comeback, right? The problem is that atmosphere I imagine keeps those that are more apprehensive from coming on board and sharing their stories. But maybe I'm just being too idealistic...Jabs compared to the Mike Tyson left uppercut's Lee and LSM get here. Jabs are only good for points which leads me to believe either A) there exists bias and sentiment toward GLA. B) It's a lure to get Drake back. C) A little bit of both. D) None of the above and I've lost my mind. Definitely feeling like D) at the moment...

Wow! You think a lack of concentration on Titus Chu and Watchman Nee on a forum trying to make sense of the Local church movement is a conspiracy to get Drake back?

I think Ohio's E, F, F, or G make a whole lot more sense.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Igzy, I agree that speaking against false spiritual authority is important BUT I can't agree with the belief that it'll lead to the downfall of an organization. Many have spoken against the heresy of one man being the voice of God yet we still have a Pope. It's good to get the info out to help other's discern but that seems to be it when it comes to religion.

Because people are held in the LR by fear, and that is really not true of the Catholic Church. I was raised a Catholic. Yes, we were taught that it is the "one true church" and all that, but the mindset is very different than that in the LR. There is no real fear of leaving the CC now. If people sweat leaving the CC now it's usually for familial/cultural reasons, not spiritual ones.

So, yes, the organization might continue. I don't really care about that. My goal is to break the stronghold of fear and bondage, so people can make their own choices.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Jesus came not to condemn or destroy the world, he came to convinct us of sin so that we can repent and be saved. Shouldn't that be our heart as well?

Of course. Love, repentance and salvation are right in line with what we are doing here.

I'm about people being saved, not organizations being destroyed. But I am for taking down spiritual strongholds that keep people from God. We are fighting a spiritual stronghold here, not people.

"For though we live in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh. The weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of the world. Instead, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We tear down arguments, and every presumption set up against the knowledge of God; and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." 2 Cor 10:3-5

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I mean who wouldn't want to bring more life into the forum with a Drake comeback, right?

Me, for one. Unless he's had a turn.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the overwhelming agenda I see on this forum; to destroy Lee's kingdom, aka the LSM, all the while Nee and GLA go mostly unnoticed.

Nee has been completely scrutinized. About the only original work of his was his book "Authority and Submission", his doctrine of deputy authority, and his doctrine concerning the ground of the church.

If you think the MOTA doctrine is derivative of Nee's teaching then that also has been heavily scrutinized.

Dr. Hsu's book has also been reviewed.

So if you have some other issue with Nee by all means create a thread.

Other than that what other issue is there to have with Nee?

As for GLA vying for martyrdom status my interest in the Blended's discipline of Titus Chu was the way in which it was done and the lack of a Biblical basis. I feel that action exposed the Blended's for what they are. Other than that Ohio has been very explicit concerning Titus Chu's sins.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Other than that Ohio has been very explicit concerning Titus Chu's sins.

To clarify, Ohio refers to Titus' mistreatment of brothers. I have elevated that to Titus Chu's sins because that is how I read the abuse of the saints.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Last post here on this topic otherwise UntoHim will get upset with me.

Shame on Untohim. I say let you speak your peace to power.

Originally Posted by Jo S

Awareness, my point wasn't to focus on the criticism of any person(s) or to balance out criticisms in general. It's to point out the glaringly obvious bias on the forum and find its meaning.

My bad. Please forgive this idiot. But prolly meaning will be as independent as fingerprints.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the overwhelming agenda I see on this forum; to destroy Lee's kingdom, aka the LSM, all the while Nee and GLA go mostly unnoticed. This imbalance can't be explained away with "well, most don't have direct experience with Nee or Chu" when the fact is that many here have direct experience with the Chu influenced local churches and Nee's literature. Common sense tells me if the LSM is wiped off the face of the earth, then the very foundation of the Lord's Recovery is still left standing and not only that, but a new MOTA as well.

Ohio, what happened in 2006 was pure politics draped in bible-speak yet I have the feeling, like you, many here still buy into the martyrdom narrative GLA broadcasts hook, line, and sinker. And because of the conflict this belief creates, many are suffering. That's not to excuse LSM, they still spread the same false gospel.

I have no interest in politics, but others apparently do. I came here a year ago seeking advice and help for some friends but instead ran right into what seems like a proxy war instigated by some set on using this platform for settling scores.

And speaking of UntoHim; your forum is the only online community I know of that can serve in encouraging those coming out of the LC's. It's unfortunate that the politicking, which goes mostly unnoticed, largely hinders that potential.

Please understand that we encourage people to get out of LSM but we never recommend someone to join Cleveland of TC after leaving. It depends on the Lord. We ask everyone here to pray for His guidance for the way we should go. Yeah, many of us have direct experiences with LSM's false teaching and practices and some people like Ohio had direct experience with Lee when he was alive. For Titus Chu or Nee, l myself rarely have direct fellowship with them because I never spend my time with them and their flock. That's why I have no enough database to criticize. I have no intention to play politics here.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the overwhelming agenda I see on this forum; to destroy Lee's kingdom, aka the LSM, all the while Nee and GLA go mostly unnoticed.

Well, LSM is the most blatant example, but there are other manifestations as well.

This is why I write more about principles than specifics. Tear down the false principles, and the organizations that are based on them might continue, but they are rendered mostly toothless. The same principles that invalidate the LR and its claims invalidate anyone else who makes similar claims.

An example is the Catholic Church. It has been rendered largely toothless. People used to fear losing their salvation for leaving it, but that falsehood has been rejected by most now because the principle it is based on has been exposed as false.

MOTA is false. Local ground is false. The LR as God's unique move is false. Take those false principles out and the tiger has no teeth or claws. He's just a big, dumb pussycat, like the Catholic Church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, LSM is the most blatant example, but there are other manifestations as well.

This is why I write more about principles than specifics. Tear down the false principles, and the organizations that are based on them might continue, but they are rendered mostly toothless. The same principles that invalidate the LR and its claims invalidate anyone else who makes similar claims.

An example is the Catholic Church. It has been rendered largely toothless. People used to fear losing their salvation for leaving it, but that falsehood has been rejected by most now because the principle it is based on has been exposed as false.

MOTA is false. Local ground is false. The LR as God's unique move is false. Take those false principles out and the tiger has no teeth or claws. He's just a big, dumb pussycat, like the Catholic Church.

So well said, Igzy, having lived thru both.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So well said, Igzy, having lived thru both.

So true bro Ohio. And Igzy is right. And now we're tearing down their principle of no natural affection. A very insidious dehumanizing principle.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So true bro Ohio. And Igzy is right. And now we're tearing down their principle of no natural affection. A very insidious dehumanizing principle.

It was so typical of Lee to zoom in on some dubious interpretation of O.T. typology while ignoring all the plain exhortations found in the N.T.

But who were we to read the Bible ourselves? Supposedly we needed Lee to "properly interpret" these verses for us. Reminds me of my youth hearing the same thing in Catholic school.

Another case in point was how Lee circumvented I Cor 6 in order to prove to us that suing our brothers was OK.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was so typical of Lee to zoom in on some dubious interpretation of O.T. typology while ignoring all the plain exhortations found in the N.T.

But who were we to read the Bible ourselves? Supposedly we needed Lee to "properly interpret" these verses for us. Reminds me of my youth hearing the same thing in Catholic school.

Another case in point was how Lee circumvented I Cor 6 in order to prove to us that suing our brothers was OK.

Lee used the Bible on us to make it sound like he was speaking for God. David Koresh of Waco fame did the same thing. And they aren't the first to do it. It's an easy trick to fall for.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

E) Jo S is trolling us

F) Jo S is drinking and posting

F) Jo S password has been hacked by DCP

G) Jo S is reincarnation of Bilbo

I only drink of the living water Ohio, and regular water. At this moment it's coffee.

Speaking of DCP, if Cleveland doesn't already have their own version of it, I elect Ohio as head director.

Originally Posted by awareness

I may be out of touch, but I don't think Jo S is any of these things. I just feel he's not been clear. Cuz of that I can't quite nail down where he stands. Particularly his claim of imbalance on the forum. I might be unbalanced, some might say, but I don't see all the other members being that way.

If I can reduce it all into one word it's discrimination. And I'm not referring to race, religion, or personal traits. It's this; why would you focus on only one of the heads of a seven-headed monster? You cut that off and you'll only make the monster angry.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow! You think a lack of concentration on Titus Chu and Watchman Nee on a forum trying to make sense of the Local church movement is a conspiracy to get Drake back? I think Ohio's E, F, F, or G make a whole lot more sense.

For some, absolutely. For others, it's politics, and yet still for others it's fear of touching "God's anointed".

I refer you to the 3 stages of truth, ZNP.

BTW Ohio, Drake knew what he was doing by shunning you and he knows what he's doing now by staying off the forum. Don't let all that keep you in a state of unrest.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Because people are held in the LR by fear, and that is really not true of the Catholic Church. I was raised a Catholic. Yes, we were taught that it is the "one true church" and all that, but the mindset is very different than that in the LR. There is no real fear of leaving the CC now. If people sweat leaving the CC now it's usually for familial/cultural reasons, not spiritual ones.

So, yes, the organization might continue. I don't really care about that. My goal is to break the stronghold of fear and bondage, so people can make their own choices.

Of course. Love, repentance and salvation are right in line with what we are doing here.

I'm about people being saved, not organizations being destroyed. But I am for taking down spiritual strongholds that keep people from God. We are fighting a spiritual stronghold here, not people.

It's true there once was a fear of leaving the one true Catholic Church but I was under the impression that today it's fear that leads people into the Catholic Church, fear of God's judgment and wrath that is (Matthew 3:7). Could it be one of the things that leads many into the Local Churches today?

As far as strongholds, I agree we should bring lies into the light of scripture. However I have issue when people makes "strongholds" objects, whether people or organizations. It's the love of God that draws people out of the darkness and sets them free. If you only supply information that merely reveals the darkness, then what's left for those people that leave those organizations because of those efforts? Are they still not left in bondage?

I agree that the lies embedded in Local Church doctrine are strongholds and go even further and say they are cancerous. And just like cancer, the goal is to destroy the tumors without destroying the person even if that person is our enemy. Easy to say, hard to do, but it's commanded and expected of us.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

For Titus Chu or Nee, l myself rarely have direct fellowship with them because I never spend my time with them and their flock. That's why I have no enough database to criticize. I have no intention to play politics here.

I completely understand that. From a mainly unbiased point of view, when criticizing doctrine, it's intuitive for me to not stop mid-track but go to the root of the teachings. If my search ends at a person, I'll call them out but it's not personal. I feel many can get a little bit too personal in their responses and stop short because of that. In saying that, things seem so personal here that the term "Lee" has become a synonym for LSM, DCP, Drake, ect.

I too haven't had direct contact or fellowship with Nee or Lee but in reading Nee's own words I do get a clear sense of who he was as a person of faith and see mostly him in LC members, that includes Lee and Chu. If I ever get caught up in anger it's toward Watchman Nee and the naivety he had that led him to mix all the eastern mystic and new age thought into Christian doctrine. I then remember how that was once me and so I allow empathy to take over.

Weren't most all of you once just like a young Nee and a young Lee, naive and idealistic? They too got caught up and ensnared in lies just like we all did. Even those in leadership today. Let's pray for them and hope the Lord breaks their chains.

Thanks for putting up with me Truthseeker, didn't mean to take over your thread with my conspiracy theories.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I only drink of the living water Ohio, and regular water. At this moment it's coffee.

Speaking of DCP, if Cleveland doesn't already have their own version of it, I elect Ohio as head director.

If I can reduce it all into one word it's discrimination. And I'm not referring to race, religion, or personal traits. It's this; why would you focus on only one of the heads of a seven-headed monster? You cut that off and you'll only make the monster angry.

BTW Ohio, Drake knew what he was doing by shunning you and he knows what he's doing now by staying off the forum. Don't let all that keep you in a state of unrest.

Jo S, it was you who said in a previous post, "I've lost my mind." I was only trying to throw you a lifeline.

I still don't understand what you are disturbed by. When I and others respond or ask why, you seem to get more upset. LSM in Anaheim has been the root of the LC problem for decades. That's why this forum exists.

Jo S, no one is telling you what to post or not. How does your bias become our discrimination? If you have issues with Cleveland, why don't you spell them out?

What is your seven-headed monster? Stop speaking in riddles.

And your comments about Drake make me a little suspicious of your motives.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jo S, it was you who said in a previous post, "I've lost my mind." I was only trying to throw you a lifeline.

And your comments about Drake make me a little suspicious of your motives.

You left out the part where I said, "That how I feel". Feelings don't always constitute reality.

You know, in the last string of posts I've made, I've noticed how a few members confuse my lack of bias as favoritism for the opposition and have tried to compare me to Lee or DCP, just like you're doing.

I don't take offense because I know I'm not Lee, but what it's saying to me is that this place is hungry for Lee (or a representative of Lee) to come onto the forum. It's a tell that anger and hatred has a stronghold here and it's at a breaking point.

That's what I'm trying to point out. And no, I won't be that person because I'm not that person. But by keeping that desire, people risk turning on themselves.

I'm not your enemy. As far as bad practices and false doctrine of the LC's, we're in agreement, but the vitriol here at times is just too much and makes it an unwelcoming place. It's at the point where one feels is they don't have the same amount of animosity toward Lee's kingdom, they're not welcome.

Originally Posted by Ohio

What is your seven-headed monster? Stop speaking in riddles.

It's reference to the beast in revelation and the analogy is pointing to what I've been trying to say all along. Focus is too much on the individuals within the LC's and the take down of organizations in preference to the entity as a whole. Rather than exposing lies in the light and love of the truth and for others, they're weaponized with the intent to cause people harm.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

(1)If I can reduce it all into one word it's discrimination. And I'm not referring to race, religion, or personal traits. It's this; why would you focus on only one of the heads of a seven-headed monster? You cut that off and you'll only make the monster angry.

(2)BTW Ohio, Drake knew what he was doing by shunning you and he knows what he's doing now by staying off the forum. Don't let all that keep you in a state of unrest.

(3)It's true there once was a fear of leaving the one true Catholic Church but I was under the impression that today it's fear that leads people into the Catholic Church, fear of God's judgment and wrath that is (Matthew 3:7). Could it be one of the things that leads many into the Local Churches today?

(4)As far as strongholds, I agree we should bring lies into the light of scripture. However I have issue when people makes "strongholds" objects, whether people or organizations. It's the love of God that draws people out of the darkness and sets them free. If you only supply information that merely reveals the darkness, then what's left for those people that leave those organizations because of those efforts? Are they still not left in bondage?

(5)I agree that the lies embedded in Local Church doctrine are strongholds and go even further and say they are cancerous. And just like cancer, the goal is to remove the tumors without destroying the person even if that person is our enemy. Easy to say, hard to do, but it's commanded and expected of us.

(6)I too haven't had direct contact or fellowship with Nee or Lee but in reading Nee's personal words I do get a clear sense of who he was as a person of faith and see mostly him in most LC'ers, that includes Lee and Chu. If I ever get caught up in anger it's toward Watchman Nee and the naivety he had that led him to mix all the eastern mystic and new age thought into Christian doctrine. I then remember how that was once me and so I allow empathy to take over.

(7)Weren't most all of you once just like a young Nee and a young Lee, naive and idealistic? They too got caught up and ensnared in lies just like we all did. Even those in leadership today. Let's pray for them and hope the Lord breaks their chains.

1) The monster Nee cut his own head off.

2) I miss Drake

3) I don't think people join the RCC out of fear. They're born into it.

4) If God pulls the rug out from under falseness and misplaced faith, maybe it's so we end up only having faith in Him.

5) The goal is to walk away and let the system die of attrition.

6) I didn't know Nee at all, nor even Lee when it comes down to it. You know what they say, 'If you want to keep your heroes, don't get to know them.'

7) Yes. We all got caught up in lies ; Nee, Lee, and Titus too. But we don't all claim to be the authority of God on the earth.

[UntoHim]

My goodness, only on LocalChurchDiscussions can a thread with "natural affection" in the title get so contentious and chippy! No worries on my part though - many times the most contentious and chippy threads seem to bring out the hard truth and reality that only comes from "iron sharpening iron". Also, I think part of the reason for the questioning and contentiousness comes from the simple fact that we were never allowed such a luxury in the Local Church. The question mark was a symbol of the Snake. There was room for only one opinion. So now we are all let out into the wild as it were, where we have found out the hard way that we actually did have opinions, reservations and questions about all sorts of things. Now that we are allowed to think for ourselves, we're finding out that not everyone thinks alike.

Originally Posted by Jo S

...but what it's saying to me is that this place is hungry for Lee (or a representative of Lee) to come onto the forum. It's a tell that anger and hatred has a stronghold here and it's at a breaking point.

Although I think Jo has overstated a bit here, there is a point to be well-taken I believe. Anger and hatred are part and parcel of fallen men and women...and that includes those who have been saved and redeemed. Sin, anger, hatred, regret and selfishness are still alive and well within the fallen flesh of the old man, and will be until the day we die. It is our "job" to not let these things remain as a stronghold in our lives. It's part of "working out our own salvation". Yet during the process we need have some understanding and patience for each other and we're doing the working out, especially on an open forum like LCD. We need to pretend that we are all in one big room with many people watching and hearing. Current LC members are watching and hearing. Former members are too. Even members of the general Christian public are watching and hearing. You never know, maybe we're even entertaining an angel or two.

As far as bad practices and false doctrine of the LC's, we're in agreement, but the vitriol here at times is just too much and makes it an unwelcoming place. It's at the point where one feels if they don't have the same amount of animosity toward Lee's kingdom, they're not welcome.

Another fair observation. Again, the simple fact is that not every former member has the same feelings about the person and work of Witness Lee. The gambit runs all the way from the view that Lee was a true apostle and oracle of God that simply had a few character flaws and made a few mistakes, all the way up to considering that the man was a rank charlatan and a religious fraud of the worst kind. Of course I'm stating what is surely the farthest reach of the two extremes, and my experience and observation over 20+ years tells me that the vast majority of former members fall into the majority middle. Another thing to consider would be that fact that some of us have just freshly exited the LC movement and are naturally going to have a different view of things than those of us who have been out for decades. Once again, patients and understanding should be the order of the day.

Rather than exposing lies in the light and love of the truth and for others, they're weaponized with the intent to cause people harm.

Again, probably a little overstated. Again, point well-taken. Unfortunately, I think some of us let our pride and passions get the best of us, and end up accomplishing both of these things - exposing lies in the light and love of truth, while at the very same time causing some real harm to the very people we're trying to help and fellowship with. I'm reminded of a great quote by Tim Keller: Love without truth is sentimentality; it supports and affirms us but keeps us in denial about our flaws. Truth without love is harshness; it gives us information but in such a way that we cannot really hear it.
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