I need a church life that isn't led astray!!!

[aron]

The topic is, if you are new in town, where to bring your family to fellowship with other believers? My point was that "to believe" 2,000 years after Jesus Christ is not so simple. Or, if it is simple, one has to pare away a lot of added "complications".

One of the complications of the past 2,000 years is the tendency of people, even Jesus-followers, to fool themselves into thinking they are something they are not. This can be seen in the gospels. The disciples wanted to know who was 'greatest', which is nothing more than the old "Alpha Dog" debate that surfaces on every playground, regardless of culture, among 10-year-olds.

My take home lesson is this: because of sin, one cannot simply do a Lebron James vs Michael Jordan comparison. It doesn't matter how many books you have written or churches you have founded. Because of sin, any tendency to think in terms of 'greatest' and 'least' is going to get hopelessly corrupted.

The only safe position is to be the 'least', and let the Lord of the feast call you higher in due season.

This is not to say we should not do 'works', on the contrary. Faith without works is vanity. You are not going to sit in a chair, doing nothing, and "absorb God" and "become God in life and nature", because that's the deluded "hearers of the word" position - it's only "doers of the Word" that receive the reward at the end of the race. But again, your works are nothing, of themselves... only God, at the Bema, will say what is what. Just take the least place, and labor in love on one another.

Many in the LC do just that, but there is a great, big, stinking carcass in the assembly and that is the Deputy God principle. Jesus alone is Deputy God. Only Jesus has passed the veil. The rest should take Jesus' advice and be nothing.

Of course there are prophets, and evangelists and shepherds and teachers. Some are able to give a revelation or a tongue or a psalm, others give an encouragement or an interpretation. Some are (apparently) one-talented, others two- or five-talented. But the fire will test everything. Let it go.

The Minister (or ministry) of the age is the "greatest" pile of doo-doo. Run away from such notions. Flee.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Don't believe me...just listen to the president of the Living Stream Ministry, Mr Benson Phillips:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

This speaker has not learned the Spiritual ABCs of life on this planet. Because of sin, nobody can claim to be a great spiritual person on this earth. Only God will reveal such things, in due time. If you use such words you are far from the mark. Jesus was made both Lord and Christ after the cross, not before it. Do you think, if the sinless Jesus had to pass through such a fire, that we can avoid it, and claim greatness while in the flesh of sin? Have we learned nothing from scripture? They tried to call Jesus "good" - he had none of it. Should any of us? Who among us Christian believers is a "great spiritual person on the earth"?

If you learn such basic lessons, you'll be able to have mutually profitable fellowship with believers near you. You'll be built up with others, and will see them built up with you. What a blessing!

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Because of sin, nobody can claim to be a great spiritual person on this earth. Only God will reveal such things, in due time. If you use such words you are far from the mark. Jesus was made both Lord and Christ after the cross, not before it. Do you think, if the sinless Jesus had to pass through such a fire, that we can avoid it, and claim greatness while in the flesh of sin?

Have we learned nothing from scripture? They tried to call Jesus "good" - he had none of it. Should any of us? Who among us Christian believers is a "great spiritual person on the earth"? If you learn such basic lessons, you'll be able to have mutually profitable fellowship with believers near you. You'll be built up with others, and will see them built up with you. What a blessing!

I’d like to develop this idea as pertaining to finding fellowship among believers in your geographic area, and for that matter holding the gospel out to unbelievers.

The main issue the Bible deals with is sin. Because of sin, humanity was separated from God, with all that separation entails: pain, fear, loneliness, purposelessness, alienation, shame, anger, frustration, failure (mistakes), sickness and death. This issue is introduced in the first few chapters of Genesis and isn’t really resolved until the last few chapters of Revelation. In between, it's a constant theme.

Now, everything in the NT narrative hinges on the claim of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. If Jesus wasn't raised, then his death was merely the death of a good and holy man, a martyr of sorts. Like David, his grave remains among us. Jesus taught, “Love your neighbor”, then he died... he did good works, healing and feeding and caring, then he died. Game over. If there's no resurrection of Jesus, the story ends there.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, then his blood does not cleanse us from sin. If he didn’t rise from the dead, then he's not Lord and Christ, but merely another good person who died for a cause. (There have been many, unfortunately.) If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, then he was not made sin on our behalf, and our sin remains.

Now, looking at the NT in this light, I want to examine the idea of a “Great Spiritual Person on the Earth” (GSPOTE) as put forth in the LSM, as seen by the quote in the previous post (#53). To me, Jesus’ answer was, Don’t claim to be GSPOTE, rather be the least of all. Because of sin, nobody can claim greatness while on earth. Because of sin, it's prudent instead to take the least place. And don’t get misled by people who claim to be GSPOTE, because they misunderstand the gospel and will lead you astray. People like that will distort the fellowship of the assembly (a good current example may be the New Apostolic Reformation).

Luke 14 (KJV)

8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;

9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.

10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Take byHismercy facing the idea of “total depravity” or “determinism” or however one puts it, as found in the Reformed Church in his town. Actually I think the idea has a lot to recommend it, and I understand its attraction (I also understand the objections of byHismercy on this thread). But ultimately if one accepts it as “truth” then one is tacitly or overtly accepting John Calvin (or whomever) as a GSPOTE who defines “truth” in our assembly. I don’t think it’s safe to call Luther or Calvin or Billy Graham or Mother Theresa or WL or WN or anyone a GSPOTE. Let the Master do all that at the Bema.

Now if you go to a local assembly and they hold some derived “truth” that they insist on as a precondition and precursor of fellowship, your ability to fellowship will be circumscribed. They have been distorted by a self-proclaimed GSPOTE, and the opinions of that person are now “truth”. It doesn’t matter if it is Ellen White or Mary Baker Eddy or John Nelson Darby or Watchman Nee, if some person’s teachings have determined the understanding of “reality” or “truth” in that assembly then you will have to deal with that.

Because of sin, nobody should make presumptions of themselves or their place. Clearly WN and WL did, and it effectively ruined their ministries, and stumbled many. May we learn the lessons and go on: confess the faith delivered once to all, fight the good fight, serve the Master by helping others, and trust God's mercy and love. At the end, it is all His. It is God's love that sent Jesus, and it His mercy that we can look homeward, with hope. God is Love, and Jesus is the Way.

Now, I can still have fellowship with other believers. But if they insist on "truths" and my holding them as a basis of fellowship, then my ability to fellowship there will be circumscribed. Think, e.g., LC "local ground" and "one minister per age" culminating with Witness Lee saying, "If you aren't 100% for this ministry get out. If you're only 99% for this ministry get out". What kind of fellowship can one have in that assembly? Pretty much none. They have a "truth" that's subsumed the gospel of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

[aron]

I'd like to re-frame my argument from post #54.

There actually are "great spiritual persons". There is to be a "kingdom reward". There will indeed be rulers over ten cities, and rulers over five. There are prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers.

But because of sin, nobody should presume anything.

Jesus was a "good teacher", but because of sin he would not touch it (Mark 10:17,18). He was the Messiah, but rather than with words he showed it with good works (John 10:38; 14:11) - he was Master but did the works of a servant(John 13:13,14). And then the Father raised him to glory.

We can all follow this path, this Way. There is no need of presumption, and because of sin we should avoid hasty claims (1 Tim 5:22). Watchman Nee cribbing JPL and publishing it under his name at age 24 - that was a hasty claim to spiritual greatness, and many bought it. But we learn from our mistakes, and not institutionalize them.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

I'd like to re-frame my argument from post #54.

There actually are "great spiritual persons". There is to be a "kingdom reward". There will indeed be rulers over ten cities, and rulers over five. There are prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers.

But because of sin, nobody should presume anything.

Jesus was a "good teacher", but because of sin he would not touch it (Mark 10:17,18). He was the Messiah, but rather than with words he showed it with good works (John 10:38; 14:11) - he was Master but did the works of a servant(John 13:13,14). And then the Father raised him to glory.

We can all follow this path, this Way. There is no need of presumption, and because of sin we should avoid hasty claims (1 Tim 5:22). Watchman Nee cribbing JPL and publishing it under his name at age 24 - that was a hasty claim to spiritual greatness, and many bought it. But we learn from our mistakes, and not institutionalize them.

Hence my interest in the Lord's word that unless you repent and turn and be like children you shall in no wise enter into the kingdom.

He was telling them to repent from the attitude which is the basis for the question "who is the greatest in the kingdom", a discussion prompted by seeing Elijah and Moses talking with the Lord on the mount of transfiguration.

This "becoming as a small child" is the "path" you are talking about. So can you explain what this path is?

I feel the difference between their discussion and a small child is that they wanted to classify, categorize, and qualify the various historical figures whereas a small child simply wants to experience. That was the point of my example with the piano. When the child sees the piano they want to play it, they have no thought as to who the great piano players in history were, nor does that matter to them. The piano is cool because they get to experience it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This "becoming as a small child" is the "path" you are talking about. So can you explain what this path is?

I feel the difference between their discussion and a small child is that they wanted to classify, categorize, and qualify the various historical figures whereas a small child simply wants to experience. That was the point of my example with the piano. When the child sees the piano they want to play it, they have no thought as to who the great piano players in history were, nor does that matter to them. The piano is cool because they get to experience it.

I suppose there's some logic to it. But the reason I see Jesus hiding himself and not revealing himself was because of sin, not lack of enthusiasm/curiosity.

John 2:24,25 But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men. He did not need any testimony about man, for He knew what was in a man.

Isaiah 11:3 And He will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what His eyes see, and He will not decide by what His ears hear,

Matthew 9:4 But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said, "Why do you harbor evil in your hearts?

Jesus knew he was from God and returning to God (John 13:3). He knew he was the Only Begotten Son of the Father (too many citations to bother with). But he would not reveal himself, but continually went away and hid, or "withdrew himself" (again, many citations in the gospels).

Now contrast that to the disciples who as corrupted human vessels wanted to be something. "And they were arguing which one of them was greatest" - multiple citations.

So, what is a "child" in this context? Without sin? No. With curiosity/cooperation to God's will? Yes, see, e.g., "here is a little boy with 5 small loaves and 2 small fish". The child didn't despise his "little" portion but the disciples did - "what are these (small) among so many (large)?" This is the fallen, sinful mind at work. Looking at the outward thing. The Jews were expecting a "big man" to show up, but Jesus showed up riding on a donkey's colt.

The main thing the child is in this context is "least of all". Small, despised, rejected as of little value. "Tell these children to shut up!!" ~Luke 19:37-40

Jesus was Master (Kurios, Lord) but washed their feet, was great but became small on our behalf. Should not we? And yes, that includes being curious when God gives you a piano. Don't despise the day of small things. But don't think you are "great" just because you can play piano.

Everyone has a gift. That includes your neighbor. But don't presume your gift is bigger than someone else's. Nee did just that. He was the Big Man in the Room. And Lee saw what a successful move that was, and followed suit.

But it is not in the "ministry", unless it is the Ministry of the Kingdom of Self.

From an LSM document on Titus Chu:

In spite of Brother Lee's efforts, Titus and his work were never blended into the one work in the Lord's recovery. At the end, Titus' person and his work were untouched and untouchable.

Could we not say the exact same thing of WL? His person and work were untouchable? Then what was the crime?

What concerned Brother Lee as much as Titus' divisive work was that many co-workers were inwardly following Titus and not following the ministry.

Couldn't we also say many were inwardly following WL and not following the ministry of TC? Then what was the crime?

Ambition? Who is ambitious, here? The ministry here seems to be of a veritable ravening wolf. The moral of the story -- don't try to be a "great spiritual person on the earth." Let God be great.

https://afaithfulword.org/articles/BriefAccount/

[byHismercy]

I find everyone's contribution to be truly helpful and edifying, here. Even when I find myself disagreeing it still makes me think, process, and figure out what I believe regarding some doctrines which are new to me. This whole question has been educating me on Lordship salvation ( I reject) and caused me to seek the Lord in His word which is giving me some clarity. Honestly, even when we stray from the topic I find every conversation here to be helpful, and enlightening. Remember, please, you all are kindly contributing to a person whose only Christian counsel is here on this forum. I appreciate and value this more than you might think. Not just on this topic, but everything discussed here, really. God bless all of you who care enough to donate your time and insight here. I think my own portion might be small but if it comes from Jesus then I don't despise it. It just didn't have any value to the saints in the LR because it could not be crammed into their rock solid, ridgid box. But the Lord gave divers gifts to divers ones and this conversation has encouraged me to look for this portion in others. Especially if it does not look like I expect it to. Thank you, brothers.

One last question on this Lordship salvation....do I go too far to suspect this is adding to scripture? Or preaching another Jesus? Or is it maybe just a misinterpretation of scripture??

Either way, for better or worse, I am now the cautious Christian. And I praise Jesus for my new found discernment, and I completely trust Him to make my path straight. He is sovereign over that job, and cannot fail. May I and my kids be blessed to acknowledge Him in all my ways forever.

byHismercy