I need a church life that isn't led astray!!!

[aron]

Originally Posted by JB482

Great answer aron!

JB thank you for the kind affirmation.

In retrospect I didn't engage the body of the initial post, with regard to understanding scripture correctly, and the impact that can have on one's spiritual life, both with the Lord and with others in assembly. Kevin has come along and attempted to address some of the points made. I love how this little forum allows for different points of view, interpretations, and understandings of scripture. Such a plurality of opinions, if respectfully made and engaging of others (rather than 'talking past' each other) can only be a good testimony of the common faith, once delivered to all.

I would add this: I consider the idea of 'volition' and 'free will' (along with 'determinism' and such) to be fascinating, and as a former addict (others would say 'recovering addict') it is not mere speculative fluff. "Oh, wretched mortal man that I am! Who can save me?!?" &c.

I would merely add to the points made already that what matters is not what Calvin thought, or Augustine, or Witness Lee. What matters is what the 1st-century Jews (and the Gentile converts) thought. Because that alone gives proper context to the NT. And remember, not all of them thought the same things - some of them, for example, didn't believe in the resurrection from the dead. Even some Christians didn't believe, if you read Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians (15:12-14)!

So even though assuming some monolithic, 'orthodox position' that we must by our own logic and word studies re-create in toto in our assemblies today, whether Idaho USA or Zimbabwe Africa, seems a bit optimistic - sorry LSM - we should endevour to track this down, what was meant when the apostle wrote this or that. In fact I do nothing but this on my spare time, but read intelligent and informed people who write and talk about these kinds of things. But ultimately it's not what Pastor Bob preaches down the street. It is what Jesus said, and what Jesus meant when he said what he said. If I am zealously pursuing such things, then I can meet with most anybody. I have my views and I am not threatened or offended by the views others hold. (mostly, unless they try to enslave me)

My own view is this. Jesus essentially had no free will. He kept saying, "I come to do the Father's will". He kept saying, "Not my will but the Father's will be done". He kept saying, "It must be fulfilled, Scripture has been written". My sense is that Jesus saw himself caught by the Father's will, expressed in scripture. It was written, so it must be done. Now, Jesus of course had free will, but that was to choose the Father's will. To believe.

"He (Jesus) trusted in God (the Father); let Him (the Father) save Him (the Son) now". Psalm 22:8; Matt 27:43. Jesus chose to trust, to believe, to obey. He saw nothing but the Father. Now how can we see anything but Jesus?

So, he 'chose' to have 'no free will'. Because he believed. That's why (I think) Paul called it the "faith of Christ". It is his faith, now dwelling in us.

[JB482]

Originally Posted by aron

JB thank you for the kind affirmation.

Amen brother,we all know what happened when Adam innocent exercised his free will. And the Last Adam,the Second Man always did His Father's will. Very interesting subject matter.

[JB482]

Originally Posted by JB482

Amen brother,we all know what happened when Adam innocent exercised his free will. And the Last Adam,the Second Man always did His Father's will. Very interesting subject matter.

I should have said when Adam innocent exersised his will independent from God.

[byHismercy]

Aron and Kevin thank you both. You brothers are pursuing the truth in the word and your council is the kind I need. Amen to seeking the Kingdom of God first and it being near, in our hearts and in our mouths, Aron.

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word??

And I agree, Aron, this discussion is good and important to have, and could be a real testimony of Jesus.

byHismercy

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would encourage you to stay. Focus on the positive -- faith, hope, and love. Remember, there would be no epistles in the N.T. unless the church had "issues." The Lord is faithful to purge each assembly.

Put another way, if you held opinions contrary to the pastor and the elders, but didn't make them a point of contention, would they tolerate you?

I think about the children a lot. Do they want to see the adults arguing about the finer points of doctrine, and dismissing others' abstractions for their own, or do they want to see the adults receiving one another (and them) in love? Humility is not a word, it's a consistent series of actions spurred by an attitude consistently held.

The original "church split" in the 4th century, at the Chalcedon Conference, was over an abstraction, that centered around the Greek word meaning 'nature'. The Oriental Orthodox went one way, the Greek Orthodox went another way. Even today if you ask them what it was all about, they say, "It's complicated." I would rather be simple.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word??

I don't see easy answers coming to such questions. I think a lot about Jesus and how he saw the Father, especially in the Hebrew Scriptures. And how he saw himself and his role. I felt like the Jews were very constrained by the word (God's command) and Jesus was constrained most of all. And yet all of this was (somehow) 'his' choice. If it were the Father alone, how could there be a reward?

Somehow both points (detervminism v/v free will) seem so opposite, and I can't logically reconcile them, and don't even try. Yet somehow it somehow feels like that's the way it was.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by aron

Somehow both points (detervminism v/v free will)

It's essentially compatibilism which I affirm.

Aron, in my position on total depravity I've indicated that man's will is bound by its nature. Which is why it cannot do the opposite of its own nature, such as submit to the law of God.

▶Jeremiah 13:23 NASB◀
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

Compatibilism allows us to correctly connect man's will with God's sovereignty hence soft determinism in making these two seemingly opposite entities compatible. You can search that more on Google.

Okay, enough this Calvinism stuff. Lol

[aron]

Originally Posted by Kevin

.. in my position on total depravity I've indicated that man's will is bound by its nature. Which is why it cannot do the opposite of its own nature, such as submit to the law of God...Compatibilism allows us to correctly connect man's will with God's sovereignty hence soft determinism in making these two seemingly opposite entities compatible.

But Jesus was a man who was not in total depravity and it is in this man that we hope, not in ourselves. I see him choosing the Father's will and I choose him.

Then we come to the question of "nature"... Jesus the Son of Man submitted to the law of God. "I come to do Thy will, o God, behold in the scroll of the book it is written concerning me". Jesus chose to believe that the scroll of the book was written concerning him, and he walked accordingly, and God raised him from the dead and gave him glory.

To me, the salient issue here is not "nature" but "walk". Words are words, but it is my conduct that will prove the issue. It is not a debate that I can "win" in a Calvinist assembly, or any other. I confess Jesus Christ as Lord - now where is my walk? How I interact in the assemblies, some of whom may be stuck in various abstractions like "oneness" and "local ground" (for example) - that will prove of what sort I am. If we show mercy to others, God will show mercy to us.

My point is that the "degradation of the church" is an opportunity for us to show mercy, and love. Outreach is not only to the unbelievers but also to those of the household of faith.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

But Jesus was a man who was not in total depravity and it is in this man that we hope, not in ourselves. I see him choosing the Father's will and I choose him.

Then we come to the question of "nature"... Jesus the Son of Man submitted to the law of God. "I come to do Thy will, o God, behold in the scroll of the book it is written concerning me". Jesus chose to believe that the scroll of the book was written concerning him, and he walked accordingly, and God raised him from the dead and gave him glory.

To me, the salient issue here is not "nature" but "walk". Words are words, but it is my conduct that will prove the issue. It is not a debate that I can "win" in a Calvinist assembly, or any other. I confess Jesus Christ as Lord - now where is my walk? How I interact in the assemblies, some of whom may be stuck in various abstractions like "oneness" and "local ground" (for example) - that will prove of what sort I am. If we show mercy to others, God will show mercy to us.

My point is that the "degradation of the church" is an opportunity for us to show mercy, and love. Outreach is not only to the unbelievers but also to those of the household of faith.

This post gives me some light, Aron. When I consider my own state it seems silly to expect the body to be anything more.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word??

byHismercy

I have interpreted the foreknowledge and predestination of a loving God to remind me that He gets all the glory. I have nothing to boast in. I Cor 1.31 does not just apply to boasting in ministers (i.e. "I am of Paul"), but also boasting in ourselves. I have heard some dramatic testimonies over the years with the story-teller concluding how they chose the Lord. They received great applause. But predestination informs us, not so much that we did not choose to believe, but that all the glory is His.

This is how I have tried to reconcile this mysterious Biblical enigma. Stretching the understanding further seems to invite trouble.

[Kevin]

I ain't gonna push the envelope to defend Calvinistic soteriology. Well, this forum is about the Lord's Recovery movement anyway. I'll just leave this photo anyway.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I ain't gonna push the envelope to defend Calvinistic soteriology. Well, this forum is about the Lord's Recovery movement anyway. I'll just leave this photo anyway.

Am I the stupid penguin in this analogy? If so, I forgive you. :-)
Wait, which one?

I just cannot feel silly referencing any scripture as Gods' truth. Nor ashamed. I fully believe every word of scripture and I also have a bit of trust in the interpretation that belongs to me via the Holy Spirit.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Am I the stupid penguin in this analogy? If so, I forgive you. :-)
Wait, which one?

No. I don't mean to refer yourself in that analogy. It's just for fun that I myself am fond of reformed memes. But seriously, I don't wanna argue to push this further because of the maligned stereotype that Calvinists are just mean robust geek jerks.

I suspect a lot of people get turned off from Calvinism because of Calvinists. If you’ve been burned by us, I’m sorry. If you’ve been put off by what Calvinism teaches because you’ve seen how some Calvinists speak and act, then I understand. Calvinists like me get a rush of adrenaline over winning an argument or justifying our beliefs, and we tend to forget about loving our brothers and sisters who have also been justified by Christ. And that’s wrong.

But honestly, I don't wear badges. I find Calvin, Luther, Wesley, and Tozer helpful men. I aim to read the Scriptures faithfully. I find that people make assumptions about labels.

[Kevin]

I agree with Piper on limited atonement. He says,

The atonement of Christ is sufficient for all humans and effective for those who trust him. It is not limited in its worth or sufficiency to save all who believe. But the full, saving effectiveness of the atonement that Jesus accomplished is limited to those for whom that saving effect was prepared. The availability of the total sufficiency of the atonement is for all people. Whosoever will—whoever believes—will be covered by the blood of Christ. And there is a divine design in the death of Christ to accomplish the promises of the new covenant for the chosen bride of Christ. Thus Christ died for all people, but not for all in the same way.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have interpreted the foreknowledge and predestination of a loving God to remind me that He gets all the glory. I have nothing to boast in. I Cor 1.31 does not just apply to boasting in ministers (i.e. "I am of Paul"), but also boasting in ourselves. I have heard some dramatic testimonies over the years with the story-teller concluding how they chose the Lord. They received great applause. But predestination informs us, not so much that we did not choose to believe, but that all the glory is His.

This is how I have tried to reconcile this mysterious Biblical enigma. Stretching the understanding further seems to invite trouble.

Yes, not that any should boast! And I will pray. I fear joining an assembly which wholehearted believes these points might be allowing my kids to become indoctrinated in an error. I can only think such a stance would lead Christians to see the unsaved with a pessimistic lens.....'maybe that one is not chosen....maybe why bother?' Also, what a mystery! I mean, as sure as I am that His death and resurrection are for whomever will believe, I also completely see that yes, we were fore known, called into fellowship with the Son. But only because He came to me, but that was because I asked Him to show me, and that because of His mercy!

It is so easy to go too far. To state as scripture what may not actually be there. Or to discard any portion which doesn't match your personal interpretation or understanding. John 3:16, anyone? Kevin?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Aron and Kevin thank you both. You brothers are pursuing the truth in the word and your council is the kind I need. Amen to seeking the Kingdom of God first and it being near, in our hearts and in our mouths, Aron.

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word??

And I agree, Aron, this discussion is good and important to have, and could be a real testimony of Jesus.

byHismercy

One day, while walking through a crowded commercial area downtown, something on the ground caught my attention. Printed in bold letters on this flyer were the words, "free ice cream". Needless to say, I swooped down and picked it right up. It turned out that a nearby frozen yogurt restaurant was having a grand opening and because of the occasion they were giving out free frozen yogurt to their first 100 customers.

Of course having nothing on my mind at this point other then free ice cream, it was only a little later after I indulged in my good fortunes that the Lord used that day to teach me about predestination.

There are many out there led to believe that election is a matter of being predestined before birth at the individual level like Christ was, as in, the Lord saying to himself " ok, so and so will be born on this day and I have already decided that this person specifically will be a Christian when they grow up" sort of thing.

There are some exceptions, but the Lord taught me that predestination in general is a matter of a potential that he's created open-endedly to be filled by whomever makes the individual choice to partake in His free gift of eternal life.

The Lord then affirmed this message to me through scripture with the verse in Romans 11:25 that speaks about Israel being hardened until the number of gentiles be fulfilled. This verse showed me that just as in the first 100 customers getting free ice cream so it is with Heaven and the gentiles. There is a specific number (not specific individuals) that the Lord has set aside to be fulfilled. Yet, he already has a name set aside for those that are chosen.

And also the parable of the Great Banquet in Matthew 22:1-14 when Jesus speaks about sending out invitations to guests for his wedding banquet. Ultimately those invitations were not responded to only to be later extended to all others.

This of course was fulfilled when the Jews rejected the gospel thus bringing it to the Gentiles but I am led to believe this principle is still at work even within the gentile communities.

So you see, the flyer that I picked up from the ground was originally mailed to specific addresses in the area but apparently one of those addressees discarded their flyer and so I was the one that picked it up and redeemed it in their place. I assume many more than 100 flyers where mailed but only 100 were able to be redeemed.

Salvation, in short, is just like this offer for free ice cream. I believe everyone does have the individual opportunity to respond to it but as it turned out many will discard it or walk right past it only to be picking up by someone else and in my case it was only by His mercy that person was me.

And yes absolutely, the Lord died for everyone so that we all will be given the opportunity of receiving his free gift of salvation.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

And yes absolutely, the Lord died for everyone so that we all will be given the opportunity of receiving his free gift of salvation.

Yes, He did die for us all. Hallelujah! I really like how the Lord used your enthusiasm for ice cream to show you something in His word. Makes me smile. And thank you for the references, Jo S. Do you think the wedding garment is the blood of Christ? Matt. 22:11-12

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Do you think the wedding garment is the blood of Christ? Matt. 22:11-12

Yes, it could be. The Lord could also be referring to the linen garments that are the righteous acts of the saints (Revelation 19:8) which of course is the righteousness of Christ and his act of death on a cross being first and imbued to us through faith in him. Which now that I think of it is just as you mention although I complicated it a bit more.

[byHismercy]

Actually, Ohio, I would stay if it were just me. I think. The pastors wife encouraged me to listen to the pastors teaching on John. She said he took 7 years to cover the book!! They are available on the churchs' website and I have been enjoying his expounding on Hebrews they are currently in.

The thing is my children are young and being formed. I don't think I can lead them into/promote teachings I myself feel are erroneous....I don't want them to be confused. We all pray together for their dads' salvation. What if they gave up hope? What if they started to think their dad might never come to the saving knowledge and trust in Christs' atoning work?? All they have seen in their young lives, for years, is their dads' stubborn denial of God, and his refusal to see, hear, or even acknowledge any truth which is in Jesus. What if his current state of unbelief leads them to believe he is one of the 'unchosen'. One of those not called....one of 'them'. There is so much at stake. I am responsible for their spiritual upbringing and in that sense, I am the only one. I mean, there are no other regenerated Christian's in our family, at least not whom they have any contact with or live a couple thousand miles away from. Please, anyone here feel moved to, pray for Steves' salvation. Thanks.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

...my children are young and being formed. I don't think I can lead them into/promote teachings I myself feel are erroneous.....

Well then there you have it. You don't want the children in your care to sit under teachings that you yourself don't agree with.

But at the same time the apostles' word is to be at peace with all, best as you can. So it would behoove you to engage this assembly at some level beyond the nominal, wave-as-you-drive-by level. They are fellow believers and you can still love them and receive them as such.

But I'd like to add a point, with an example. My point is that under the one-church-per-city model, you're in a fix if the pastor starts teaching that the Son is the Father or that you become God, and it doesn't make sense to you. Or suppose the pastors son is appointed office manager and starts molesting the church members, and the elders side with him and agree to bury the issue? And then it happens again? If you believe in the one church per city model you are stuck.

And my example is from my own experience. Recently, I began to consider "God's economy which is in faith" in light of all the seemingly random accounts that start the book of Acts. Consider the gospels: "Lord, we have left everything and followed you". And, "When you give a feast, invite those who cannot repay you". This is the opposite of the human economy where you store your grain in barns, and your money in the bank, or stocks, or land. And in the human economy there is reciprocity- when you give, you expect equal or greater return.

But the divine economy is a variant of the "pay it forward" idea. Give by faith, expecting that God will take care of you. Does He not array the lilies of the field in splendor?

Now, look at Acts. The people sold what they had, and held things in common. There was the issue of the dispensing to the 'hellenist' widows who of course had no assets... there was likewise Dorcas making shirts for the widows. There was Peter, telling the crippled beggar, "silver and gold I have none..." There was the case of Barnabas, selling everything and becoming a disciple, and Ananias and Sapphira pretending to sell everything.

Then you have Paul and Barnabas acting as channels to the poor of Jerusalem, who have given up everything to follow Christ. Luke's narrative has a thread that runs through it all, and it continues the gospels' theme: give without expecting return. This is Gods economy in faith.

Now, what do I do if I get this 'vision'? Start a new church? Force my assembly to come on board? Start seeking a fellowship that teaches this?

No - the gospel never changes and the faith never changes. It was delivered once, for all and to all. I will not leave it.

But that doesn't mean that I have to forget my ideas, to conform to the Hive Mind. I just hold them lightly within the context of the assemblies of Jesus' faith.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The thing is my children are young and being formed. I don't think I can lead them into/promote teachings I myself feel are erroneous....I don't want them to be confused. We all pray together for their dads' salvation. What if they gave up hope? What if they started to think their dad might never come to the saving knowledge and trust in Christs' atoning work?? All they have seen in their young lives, for years, is their dads' stubborn denial of God, and his refusal to see, hear, or even acknowledge any truth which is in Jesus. What if his current state of unbelief leads them to believe he is one of the 'unchosen'. One of those not called....one of 'them'. There is so much at stake. I am responsible for their spiritual upbringing and in that sense, I am the only one. I mean, there are no other regenerated Christian's in our family, at least not whom they have any contact with or live a couple thousand miles away from. Please, anyone here feel moved to, pray for Steves' salvation. Thanks.

As an old parent and grandpa, having lived thru some of these same difficulties, I understand your concerns. Personally I believe a loving display of kindness, peace, and respect at home far outweighs some occasional misinterpretation of scripture one hour a week at church. (Thinking about I Cor. 7.14; I Peter 3.1, etc.)

Now if your children's father was singled out publicly or privately as "unchosen," or some such nonsense, then fireworks are in order.

How about we all pray for your family?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about we all pray for your family?

Yes, please!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word?? byHismercy

This raises a host of great questions.

1. Do you believe that some people created by God will be cast into the Lake of Fire? After all that is what the Bible says.

2. Do you believe that God is omniscient? If so He had to have foreseen this.

3. Do you believe that all things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing has come into being that exists? If so He created this person knowing the outcome. Even so God can still desire that all men be saved. That very fact suggests how difficult that is and even that it is very likely not going to happen.

4. However, if you believe all the previous Bible verses, then you can also believe that "all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to purpose".

5. Of course the most difficult question is how to reconcile a God in whom is no darkness, for whom it is impossible to lie, how can this God create creatures who are evil, filled with darkness and lie. That question has been deemed unsuitable for this forum, but you can find a very lengthy discussion on it on the "alternative views" under the thread "the problem of evil".

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This raises a host of great questions.

1. Do you believe that some people created by God will be cast into the Lake of Fire? After all that is what the Bible says.

2. Do you believe that God is omniscient? If so He had to have foreseen this.

3. Do you believe that all things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing has come into being that exists? If so He created this person knowing the outcome. Even so God can still desire that all men be saved. That very fact suggests how difficult that is and even that it is very likely not going to happen.

4. However, if you believe all the previous Bible verses, then you can also believe that "all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to purpose".

5. Of course the most difficult question is how to reconcile a God in whom is no darkness, for whom it is impossible to lie, how can this God create creatures who are evil, filled with darkness and lie. That question has been deemed unsuitable for this forum, but you can find a very lengthy discussion on it on the "alternative views" under the thread "the problem of evil".

Oh boy. First let me say, if I find it in scripture, I believe it is Gods' true word to us all. Cannot be untrue. Every experience the Lord has ever let me into shows proof that His word is unfailingly the truth. And it seems to me, this question of evil and this matter of Lordship salvation come back to converge on the same point, that is free will. He created the angel's to be ministers to us, didn't He? And the third, of their own free will, chose to follow Satan and attempt to overthrow Gods' throne, to usurp His position, in my understanding. So they were given a choice, like we all face. Whether we will worship our Creator, Christ, or rebel.

And back to the Lordship salvation doctrine, how can our Lord, who in Him is no lie, say he desires that none should perish......but in His election reconcile some, while leaving most to perish hell forever. That doctrine makes Him a liar. Which He cannot be.

[UntoHim]

ZNP and everyone.

Let's not get into a calvinism versus arminianism debate here on this thread. If I'm not mistaken, I think byHisMercy's main point was at the end of the opening post:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Please, brothers and sisters, what is your take? Where is the assembly without error?? I cannot seem to find them....I asked the Lord to choose the assembly, to take me to it. Please what would you do?

I think the free will deal was kind of a sidebar to his/her real concern - to find a fellowship that would be profitable and healthy for the whole family. I think the Lord will absolutely honor this longing and seeking.

So....let's not get in the Lord's way...maybe some of the forum members have had some good experiences with different churches, fellowships, ministries etc. I know for a fact that many have, because they have shared as much right here on this forum.

I have my two cents worth which I will dole out here shortly
-

[byHismercy]

I am starting to see I poked my stick into the red ant hill. Something I try to never do. In the interest of keeping peace I will retract my question and stand my ground on that point until the Lord shows me differently. I don't even know what Arminianism is. But I did get an earful of both terms at the local Calvin church that day. Peace, ZNP! I promise I don't belong in Alt Views. No offense Harold ;-)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP and everyone.

Let's not get into a calvinism versus arminianism debate here on this thread. If I'm not mistaken, I think byHisMercy's main point was at the end of the opening post:


I think the free will deal was kind of a sidebar to his/her real concern - to find a fellowship that would be profitable and healthy for the whole family. I think the Lord will absolutely honor this longing and seeking.

So....let's not get in the Lord's way...maybe some of the forum members have had some good experiences with different churches, fellowships, ministries etc. I know for a fact that many have, because they have shared as much right here on this forum.

I have my two cents worth which I will dole out here shortly
-

Thanks, UntoHim. I look forward to it.....we live in North Idaho where churches are abundant, many different denominations, which I have ruled out.

The Baptist assembly I was excited about until reading their website, found that they will not receive ''alien baptism''. Nor fellowship with other Baptist assemblies which receive ''alien baptism''. It is very serious for them. I just can't get around the fact they literally had to make this term up to express it. I know they didn't get it from scripture. When I considered having to 'prove' my baptism by 'performing' it again for their sake, it had me in tears.

Even though I was baptized by the LC I consider it genuine because it was between me and Jesus. He knew my heart. I believe He honors it even though I now reject their teachings, their lies. This area, and maybe the world is this quagmire of denominations, keeping to false teachings, that must be dug through, avoided. So much added, so much taken away from, scripture. So much misinterpretation of it. It makes me sad and I think, they don't know, they don't know how careful they must be with the word of God. Where a little error can take them.....

But how merciful is He, even to reveal this to me. Such a short time ago I had my own blinders on....preventing me from recognizing this danger! What mercy! I love Jesus. I know that every heart seeking His face, He lifts the veil away...and He is good and faithful towards us....to do this.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Even though I was baptized by the LC I consider it genuine because it was between me and Jesus. He knew my heart.

I definitely agree with this. I had to counsel a brother once because he was baptized into the name of Jesus, and not into the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Pleeeeeese!

Peter said that Baptism was the "answer of a good conscience toward God." Perhaps they will accept your testimony of baptism if you write it out, citing the Lord's work in your heart. If they don't accept that, then they are exposed for believing in their "holy water." Does a public bath qualify you for the kingdom of God, or your faith?

Most of these ordinances held by various churches were supposedly written as safeguards, but if your own testimony is not adequate, then we must ask whether these folks are in the old covenant or the new.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Thanks, UntoHim. I look forward to it.....we live in North Idaho where churches are abundant, many different denominations, which I have ruled out.

But how merciful is He, even to reveal this to me. Such a short time ago I had my own blinders on....preventing me from recognizing this danger! What mercy! I love Jesus. I know that every heart seeking His face, He lifts the veil away...and He is good and faithful towards us....to do this.

Have you tried asking your children where they want to go? Are they old enough to participate in the decision-making process? I ask this because of the testimony of a couple I know, who left the Lord's Recovery after probably two decades. They told me what happened - some of their younger children, coming into their teens, started to become reluctant to go to meetings. The couple, to their credit, kept the lines of communication open, didn't force things, and asked the children where they wanted to go. They looked around, and ended up at a non-denominational fellowship, and one of their daughters married a young man that she met there.

I was impressed that the couple was willing to humble themselves and listen to the Lord through their children. If they had tried to impose "faith" they would have lost them. But they followed the Lord together. How very non-Lord's Recovery. Instead of listening to HQ, they listened to their children.