Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery aka The One Publication

Ohio · 02-22-2019, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Igzy,

You are way out of line with the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

Don't delude yourself into thinking that your profanity-laced speaking is the Holy Spirit's utterance. Even unbelievers would call you on that.

Don't fool yourself by thinking the berating of fellow brothers in the Lord is condoned by the Lord or would be by Paul. Believers are not Pharisees or Jews that attacked His believers and persecuted His church....that is where you also err in your comparison.

Drake

Read the book of Acts or Galatians. What LSM has done to Midwest LC's is far worse than what the Judaizers have done.

Cal · 02-25-2019, 08:25 AM

"The Recovery's" One Publication policy is invalid from a Christian standpoint.

It is wrong to restrict the flow of information among the people of God, except in those situations where certain restrictions are mutually agreed upon, and these can only be in the context of organizations which are not the Body of Christ as a whole.

For example, if I join a church or ministry, which are organizations, I should agree to submit to its rules. If there are any rules I feel I cannot or will not obey, then I shouldn't join. It would indeed be rebellion for me to remain in the organization and defy its rules. Any Christian who joins an LC local church is obligated to respect its rules, but only while being a member. If the Christian decides to leave that church, he is not obligated to obey its rules anymore. The same would be true for a Christian who went to work for Living Stream Ministry.

The LC's error is that it has equated its organizations with the broad spiritual entity of the Body of Christ or the Church. They say, we are the Church, we are the Body of Christ, so whether you are member or not you are under the authority of our leaders. But of course it is unreasonable for any group to equate itself in such a way. Yes, each local church and ministry has certain aspects of the nature of the Church and the Body. But they are not the same thing. They are also organizations. You can join them or leave them. And leaving them is not necessarily division or rebellion.

This is true of "the Recovery," the movement which defines the LC phenomenon as a whole. It is also a Christian organization, and as such, can manifest certain aspects of the Body of Christ, like any other Christian organization can. But it is not the equivalent of the Body of Christ. You truly cannot leave the Body or the Church, but you can leave a ministry or a local church or other Christian group.

No subset of the Church can equate itself to the Church to the extent of saying that leaving it is equivalent to leaving the Church. Each subset or group, that is each organization, whether it be a church, ministry, small group or something else, is part of the Church and "borrows," so to speak, the realities of the Church. But none of them can claim to own those realities to the extent where they can say that leaving that organization is the equivalent of leaving the Church or leaving God.

The LC, "the Recovery," wants to believe so much that it owns the realities of the Church that it claims that to leave them is to leave those things. But this clearly cannot be the case. The realities of the Church and the Body are manifested all over the world, in churches, ministries and groups of all kinds. Further, history has shown than this us-only attitude of "the Recovery" has led to all its problems. Ironically, what it calls "rebellions" in its midst have actually been the legitimate exercise of liberty by Christians who received that liberty from Christ himself. The problems there were actually caused by an invalid assertion of authority. They were caused by "the Recovery's confused, equivocating and ultimately deadly equating of themselves with the Church to the exclusion of all others.

If "the Recovery" wants to admit it is an organization, then it has the right to restrict membership and require compliance to publication restrictions. If it does not make that admission, and continues to claim to be purely the unique move of God, then it is wrong to make such restrictions.

In the time being, LC members should feel no obligation to respect the One Publication policy, and should feel free to publish and distribute information as much and as far as they see fit. Any objection by anyone claiming to speak on behalf of "the Recovery" can be considered baseless. "The Recovery" has no standing before the Lord as a purely spiritual entity. And since it hasn't admitted to being just an organization, is really a non-entity.

Cal · 02-25-2019, 10:38 AM

Only abstractions of the Church are purely spiritual entities.The Church as a whole, the Body of Christ, the Church in a city or region are all abstractions. All practical subsets of it, that is those with specific people who actually meet, interact or collaborate, are organizations.

This means that every practical local church, every ministry, and all other ways Christians choose to organize, even "Local Church Discussions" and “the Lord's Recovery, are organizations. None of them are purely spiritual entities. All of these “borrow” the realities of the ideal Church as a whole, but none of them own any of those realities exclusively or even in a superior way. They each are part of the whole, and manifest the nature of the whole, but none are the final word on what the whole is.

This was even true of Paul’s ministry. It was an organization. It was organized around Paul. He had co-workers and so forth. But all of them deferred to Paul. He was the leader. But this organization, as all are, was one of mutual agreement, not of compulsion. If a co-worker agreed to Paul’s request to serve with Paul, then that co-worker submitted to Paul, because that was the way that group operated. Paul did not draft anyone, he did not tell anyone they must serve with him. But if he decided someone should not serve with him, he could dismiss him. But he could not insist someone remain, nor condemn them for not doing so. Anyone could leave Paul, and if everyone did leave then Paul would no longer have group authority over anyone. Paul also clearly accepted that there were other legitimate organizations of ministry besides his. He recognized Apollo’s for one.

Membership in an abstract entity is true by definition. But membership in an practical organization is always voluntary. For example, I cannot choose to not be a member of the Body of Christ. Neither can I choose, if I'm living in Los Angeles, to not be a member of the Church in Los Angeles. But I can choose whether I meet with the organization on such-and-such street in LA which calls itself "the church in Los Angeles." And they are not the same thing.

However, if you agree to join or visit an organization, you agree to abide by its rules. But you are not obligated to join or remain in the organization. For example, Paul and Barnabas labored together. At one point they chose to go their separate ways. But in the record of this change in their working relationship, it is never implied that either one of them was wrong or rebellious. They simply disagreed and chose to go separate ways. Nee and Lee's assertion was that Barnabas was wrong and that is why the record in Acts doesn’t mention him anymore. But there is no proof text of that. The reason the record follows Paul and not Barnabas can only be said to be so because the chronicler, Luke, remained with Paul. Any other speculation is unfounded.

Witness Lee’s error, which he passed on to the current “Recovery” workers, was that he saw his ministry, movement and churches as the equivalent of universal, abstract, spiritual entities, which by their very definition Christians must belong to, rather than as the finite, temporal organizations which they have a choice whether to belong to.

Lee's view, of course, cannot be true. Such a system is recklessly presumptuous, and the damaging fruit of it is a fact of 70 years of history. Yes, when in a organization, we should obey the leaders. But we can choose to leave freely and are then no longer under their authority. Freedom of choice and conscience is always there. No one has the right to condemn anyone for leaving an organization, be it “the Recovery,” an LC church or Witness Lees’ ministry.

The One Publication, then, is a violation of this principle of free association that is a natural extension of our free conscience and choice to serve the Lord as he directs, not as some movement directs.

UntoHim · 02-27-2019, 03:06 PM

https://www.lsm.org/onepublication/

The main Living Stream Ministry link to this important document/declaration/edict is STILL NOT ACTIVE. This cannot be a mistake or oversight. The powers that be at LSM/DCP have intentionally removed this document with no explanation.

I think the best explanation for the disappearance is that they saw it being ripped to shreds on this very forum. I think they are in process of revising/revamping it and we will one day see a new, born again Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery. The Blended Brothers will do their best to try and remove and/or mask all the contradictions, inconsistencies and unbiblical language...but the truth is after you remove all of these things there isn't much of a document left.

But they are in a pickle. They have made a firm declaration-proclamation which was issued world-wide. They must know that nothing that is posted on the Internet can ever really be erased - It will always stand as a judgment against these men who first posted it.

Of course they can always make an official retraction before God, men and all the current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee. My prayer and sincere hope is that they will do so.
-

Ohio · 02-27-2019, 03:46 PM

LSM used that document as an excuse to expel TC and YDL. They don't need it any more ... unless some other reformer rises up within their ranks.

I'm surprised that entire site -- afaithfulword.org -- is still on display. If some Christian scholars saw that junk, they would rip it to pieces.

Ohio · 03-04-2019, 08:36 AM

I came across this quote in an LSM book . . . ("RitUNTMoGEUtPLiHM" p.10 -- Title too long to type out!)

Quote:

It is a fact of history in the Lord's Recovery that any church which follows the ministry is strong and blessed. But those churches which neglect the ministry and try instead to do something on their own have become a failure. However, in saying these things, I wish to make it very clear that I by no means insist that the churches or the saints read the Life-study Messages.

This is the kind of doublespeak which confines LC's to an LSM prison. First it starts out as a "fact of history" which can easily be disproved. Dozens of LC's are not "strong and blessed" while clinging to LSM for decades. I long became disenchanted with these endless false promises of blessing.

What does it mean to "do something on their own?" How vague is that? Does that include following the Lamb wheresoever He leads?" Is not the biggest failure following man and not God? Think about the Catholic churches.

Not insisting that LC's read Life-Studies? Does that now include HWFMR? Because that is why Midwest LC's were quarantined. Such a deceptive quote.

Cal · 03-04-2019, 09:42 AM

Quote:

It is a fact of history in the Lord's Recovery that any church which follows the ministry is strong and blessed. But those churches which neglect the ministry and try instead to do something on their own have become a failure.

This is a circular argument as well. Because they consider "strong and blessed" to mean to follow LSM and remain in "the Recovery," while being a "failure" means to not do so. By definition any "success" outside their movement is not success.

If they saw a video of a former LR member giving a message in a community church while wearing a pair of jeans, they'd consider that a failure--no matter how good the message might be.

Cal · 03-04-2019, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

But they are in a pickle. They have made a firm declaration-proclamation which was issued world-wide. They must know that nothing that is posted on the Internet can ever really be erased - It will always stand as a judgment against these men who first posted it.

Of course they can always make an official retraction before God, men and all the current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee. My prayer and sincere hope is that they will do so.

They must have some understanding that they should not insist the churches only read LSM materials, or even read them at all. At least they understand it enough to try to look like they understand it. One hopes there is a shred of sincerity there.

LSM needs to go back to regarding churches as churches and regarding their ministry as something completely separate.

They are absolutely entitled to consider their teachings to be as good as any others. But they have no right to say or insinuate that their teachings are better than any other, or, God forbid, to try to restrict any church or Christian to them. They should simply minister and let the chips fall where they may.

This is the Lord's way to protect others from domination and themselves from pride and presumption. It's the way the early apostles took. They all ministered, and none claimed exclusivity or superiority.

Of course, their belief they are caretakers of this fantasy called "the Lord's Recovery" will probably continue to be a problem. But perhaps and hopefully they will soon concede that it was never anything but a movement and a denomination in the first place.

02-25-2019, 08:25 AM	#2
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: One Publication "The Recovery's" One Publication policy is invalid from a Christian standpoint. It is wrong to restrict the flow of information among the people of God, except in those situations where certain restrictions are mutually agreed upon, and these can only be in the context of organizations which are not the Body of Christ as a whole. For example, if I join a church or ministry, which are organizations, I should agree to submit to its rules. If there are any rules I feel I cannot or will not obey, then I shouldn't join. It would indeed be rebellion for me to remain in the organization and defy its rules. Any Christian who joins an LC local church is obligated to respect its rules, but only while being a member. If the Christian decides to leave that church, he is not obligated to obey its rules anymore. The same would be true for a Christian who went to work for Living Stream Ministry. The LC's error is that it has equated its organizations with the broad spiritual entity of the Body of Christ or the Church. They say, we are the Church, we are the Body of Christ, so whether you are member or not you are under the authority of our leaders. But of course it is unreasonable for any group to equate itself in such a way. Yes, each local church and ministry has certain aspects of the nature of the Church and the Body. But they are not the same thing. They are also organizations. You can join them or leave them. And leaving them is not necessarily division or rebellion. This is true of "the Recovery," the movement which defines the LC phenomenon as a whole. It is also a Christian organization, and as such, can manifest certain aspects of the Body of Christ, like any other Christian organization can. But it is not the equivalent of the Body of Christ. You truly cannot leave the Body or the Church, but you can leave a ministry or a local church or other Christian group. No subset of the Church can equate itself to the Church to the extent of saying that leaving it is equivalent to leaving the Church. Each subset or group, that is each organization, whether it be a church, ministry, small group or something else, is part of the Church and "borrows," so to speak, the realities of the Church. But none of them can claim to own those realities to the extent where they can say that leaving that organization is the equivalent of leaving the Church or leaving God. The LC, "the Recovery," wants to believe so much that it owns the realities of the Church that it claims that to leave them is to leave those things. But this clearly cannot be the case. The realities of the Church and the Body are manifested all over the world, in churches, ministries and groups of all kinds. Further, history has shown than this us-only attitude of "the Recovery" has led to all its problems. Ironically, what it calls "rebellions" in its midst have actually been the legitimate exercise of liberty by Christians who received that liberty from Christ himself. The problems there were actually caused by an invalid assertion of authority. They were caused by "the Recovery's confused, equivocating and ultimately deadly equating of themselves with the Church to the exclusion of all others. If "the Recovery" wants to admit it is an organization, then it has the right to restrict membership and require compliance to publication restrictions. If it does not make that admission, and continues to claim to be purely the unique move of God, then it is wrong to make such restrictions. In the time being, LC members should feel no obligation to respect the One Publication policy, and should feel free to publish and distribute information as much and as far as they see fit. Any objection by anyone claiming to speak on behalf of "the Recovery" can be considered baseless. "The Recovery" has no standing before the Lord as a purely spiritual entity. And since it hasn't admitted to being just an organization, is really a non-entity.

02-25-2019, 10:38 AM	#3
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: One Publication Only abstractions of the Church are purely spiritual entities.The Church as a whole, the Body of Christ, the Church in a city or region are all abstractions. All practical subsets of it, that is those with specific people who actually meet, interact or collaborate, are organizations. This means that every practical local church, every ministry, and all other ways Christians choose to organize, even "Local Church Discussions" and “the Lord's Recovery, are organizations. None of them are purely spiritual entities. All of these “borrow” the realities of the ideal Church as a whole, but none of them own any of those realities exclusively or even in a superior way. They each are part of the whole, and manifest the nature of the whole, but none are the final word on what the whole is. This was even true of Paul’s ministry. It was an organization. It was organized around Paul. He had co-workers and so forth. But all of them deferred to Paul. He was the leader. But this organization, as all are, was one of mutual agreement, not of compulsion. If a co-worker agreed to Paul’s request to serve with Paul, then that co-worker submitted to Paul, because that was the way that group operated. Paul did not draft anyone, he did not tell anyone they must serve with him. But if he decided someone should not serve with him, he could dismiss him. But he could not insist someone remain, nor condemn them for not doing so. Anyone could leave Paul, and if everyone did leave then Paul would no longer have group authority over anyone. Paul also clearly accepted that there were other legitimate organizations of ministry besides his. He recognized Apollo’s for one. Membership in an abstract entity is true by definition. But membership in an practical organization is always voluntary. For example, I cannot choose to not be a member of the Body of Christ. Neither can I choose, if I'm living in Los Angeles, to not be a member of the Church in Los Angeles. But I can choose whether I meet with the organization on such-and-such street in LA which calls itself "the church in Los Angeles." And they are not the same thing. However, if you agree to join or visit an organization, you agree to abide by its rules. But you are not obligated to join or remain in the organization. For example, Paul and Barnabas labored together. At one point they chose to go their separate ways. But in the record of this change in their working relationship, it is never implied that either one of them was wrong or rebellious. They simply disagreed and chose to go separate ways. Nee and Lee's assertion was that Barnabas was wrong and that is why the record in Acts doesn’t mention him anymore. But there is no proof text of that. The reason the record follows Paul and not Barnabas can only be said to be so because the chronicler, Luke, remained with Paul. Any other speculation is unfounded. Witness Lee’s error, which he passed on to the current “Recovery” workers, was that he saw his ministry, movement and churches as the equivalent of universal, abstract, spiritual entities, which by their very definition Christians must belong to, rather than as the finite, temporal organizations which they have a choice whether to belong to. Lee's view, of course, cannot be true. Such a system is recklessly presumptuous, and the damaging fruit of it is a fact of 70 years of history. Yes, when in a organization, we should obey the leaders. But we can choose to leave freely and are then no longer under their authority. Freedom of choice and conscience is always there. No one has the right to condemn anyone for leaving an organization, be it “the Recovery,” an LC church or Witness Lees’ ministry. The One Publication, then, is a violation of this principle of free association that is a natural extension of our free conscience and choice to serve the Lord as he directs, not as some movement directs.

02-27-2019, 03:06 PM	#4
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,826	Re: One Publication https://www.lsm.org/onepublication/ The main Living Stream Ministry link to this important document/declaration/edict is STILL NOT ACTIVE. This cannot be a mistake or oversight. The powers that be at LSM/DCP have intentionally removed this document with no explanation. I think the best explanation for the disappearance is that they saw it being ripped to shreds on this very forum. I think they are in process of revising/revamping it and we will one day see a new, born again Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery. The Blended Brothers will do their best to try and remove and/or mask all the contradictions, inconsistencies and unbiblical language...but the truth is after you remove all of these things there isn't much of a document left. But they are in a pickle. They have made a firm declaration-proclamation which was issued world-wide. They must know that nothing that is posted on the Internet can ever really be erased - It will always stand as a judgment against these men who first posted it. Of course they can always make an official retraction before God, men and all the current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee. My prayer and sincere hope is that they will do so. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

02-27-2019, 03:46 PM	#5
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,693	Re: One Publication LSM used that document as an excuse to expel TC and YDL. They don't need it any more ... unless some other reformer rises up within their ranks. I'm surprised that entire site -- afaithfulword.org -- is still on display. If some Christian scholars saw that junk, they would rip it to pieces. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!