Poor poor Christianity?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay, so far we haven't determined just when and where Christianity became poor.

But I think, the way that they treated women, they started out poor.

Just sayin'.

so then we are defining Christianity as the religion, not the apostle's fellowship in the NT.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

so then we are defining Christianity as the religion, not the apostle's fellowship in the NT.

I don't know about that. But I know that the followers of Jesus, that formed Christianity, treated women like they were lower class citizens.

1Titus 2:12-15* But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.*
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.*
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.*
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.*

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't know about that. But I know that the followers of Jesus, that formed Christianity, treated women like they were lower class citizens.

1Titus 2:12-15* But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.*
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.*
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.*
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.*

What was the context of Titus chapter 2?


I ask because my employer, the Department of Education, treats me the same way. I am not allowed to speak to press, nor can I usurp authority from the "press secretary" and if I do I'll get fired.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What was the context of Titus chapter 2?


I ask because my employer, the Department of Education, treats me the same way. I am not allowed to speak to press, nor can I usurp authority from the "press secretary" and if I do I'll get fired.

Well at least you've got a job you can freely walk away from. But back then women couldn't walk away from lower class citizenship. They were just consigned to childbearing.

But I don't think Christianity is to blame per se. Christianity came up in patriarchal times.

Women weren't considered much back then. That's why none of the Christian books were written by women.

And why didn't Christianity, being followers of Jesus, give women equality?

But then even Jesus didn't ascribe to that. For example, in The Gospel of Thomas, Jesus speaking to his disciples :

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well at least you've got a job you can freely walk away from. But back then women couldn't walk away from lower class citizenship. They were just consigned to childbearing.

But I don't think Christianity is to blame per se. Christianity came up in patriarchal times.

Women weren't considered much back then. That's why none of the Christian books were written by women.

And why didn't Christianity, being followers of Jesus, give women equality?

But then even Jesus didn't ascribe to that. For example, in The Gospel of Thomas, Jesus speaking to his disciples :

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

So when you say "Christianity" you are talking about the gospel of Thomas? Why not talk about the NT?


And yes, I am well aware that women's rights have grown greatly thanks to the NT, but certainly not thanks to anyone else.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So when you say "Christianity" you are talking about the gospel of Thomas?

I'm talking about Christian Jesus followers ; the early Christian period (actually extending up to today, among fundamentalist's.

The GoT is a sayings gospel. And whether or not the author put those words into the mouth of Jesus -- like all the later gospel writers -- it still reflects their attitudes toward women back then.

Originally Posted by ZNP

Why not talk about the NT?

Why? Did the NT speak of the equality and rights of women?

Originally Posted by ZNP

And yes, I am well aware that women's rights have grown greatly thanks to the NT, but certainly not thanks to anyone else.

What? How is the NT responsible for women's rights? and not anyone else?

Renowned suffragett's Susan B. Anthony, and Elizabeth Stanton fought for women's rights in the early half of the 19th c.. Stanton attacked traditional Christianity in The Woman's Bible, detailing how religion helped suppress women's rights.

Maybe you're thinking of The Women's Bible.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm talking about Christian Jesus followers ; the early Christian period (actually extending up to today, among fundamentalist's.

The GoT is a sayings gospel. And whether or not the author put those words into the mouth of Jesus -- like all the later gospel writers -- it still reflects their attitudes toward women back then.


Why? Did the NT speak of the equality and rights of women?

The NT is the covenant Christians have with God and therefore defines what it is to be a Christian. Using the common sayings of the day doesn't. It merely reflects the bias of the people who were newly converted (at best) and at worst is simply a stereotype. Some people felt you needed to be circumcised. That does not define Christians, it defines cults.

Originally Posted by awareness

What? How is the NT responsible for women's rights? and not anyone else?

1. According to Paul in the church "there is no male or female". Making the two equal. A radical approach to this topic given the feelings of the day and probably the reason "all in Asia abandoned him".


2. Paul said an elder had to be the husband of one wife. A strong position for monogamy and against polygamy and mistresses, etc. That strengthened the woman's position and was a radical position to take in that day.


3. Saying that an elder had to be the husband of one wife meant that every locality had both an elder and "the wife of an elder" which is also a leadership position. So in a very elegant way Paul made sure every church had a woman in a very important position of authority.

Originally Posted by awareness

Renowned suffragett's Susan B. Anthony, and Elizabeth Stanton fought for women's rights in the early half of the 19th c.. Stanton attacked traditional Christianity in The Woman's Bible, detailing how religion helped suppress women's rights.

Maybe you're thinking of The Women's Bible.

The women's rights movement came out of the movement for ending slavery and giving blacks equal rights. Women said "hey, if you are giving black men the vote why not us". People justified slavery in the US using the Bible incorrectly (Biblical slavery was nothing like slavery of the south. It wasn't racial, it wasn't for life, there were no slave traders, only adults could sell themselves and only to pay off a debt and once the debt was paid they were free. It is analagous to an NFL contract.) Just because people misuse the Bible doesn't mean that is what the Bible says. For example, Awareness is trying to say the Bible is somehow against women's rights when it is exactly the opposite.


2/3 of the church membership is women. Why would so many women be in the church if it were abusive? In the church women can take on virtually every role and ministry. As a result, if Paul had not required that elders be the husband of one wife men probably would only have a token presence.