ZNP Blog -

[ZNPaaneah]

The question recently is why would it be God's will for us to have experienced the ministry of Witness Lee? Many of us including myself believe that the "Ground of Oneness" doctrine is an error, that the MOTA doctrine is an error, that the deification doctrine is an error, and that the one publication edict is an error.

The excommunications, public ridicule, and lasciviousness of the leaders of LSM are contrary to the word, yet the word also says "all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose". It also says "give thanks for all things". It is hard to "give thanks" unless we understand how this works out for good, and that part of God's will may be a mystery to us. Hence, "the mystery of God's will".

There are a couple of verses concerning God's will that are plain and clear:
1. God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth
2. It is God's will that we give thanks in all things
3. It is God's will that we are sanctified.
4. It is God's will that we silence ignorant talk by doing good.

But, in my opinion, no verse reveals the mystery of God's will more than Ephesians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The question recently is why would it be God's will for us to have experienced the ministry of Witness Lee? Many of us including myself believe that the "Ground of Oneness" doctrine is an error, that the MOTA doctrine is an error, that the deification doctrine is an error, and that the one publication edict is an error.

The excommunications, public ridicule, and lasciviousness of the leaders of LSM are contrary to the word, yet the word also says "all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose". It also says "give thanks for all things". It is hard to "give thanks" unless we understand how this works out for good, and that part of God's will may be a mystery to us. Hence, "the mystery of God's will".

There are a couple of verses concerning God's will that are plain and clear:
1. God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth
2. It is God's will that we give thanks in all things
3. It is God's will that we are sanctified.
4. It is God's will that we silence ignorant talk by doing good.

But, in my opinion, no verse reveals the mystery of God's will more than Ephesians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies.

I think each person needs to go to the Holy Spirit if they are troubled as to why they were in the LC/LSM. Did God lead them in? Were they coerced and fell into a trap?

Another means of clarity (hopefully) would be dividing on paper the pros/cons of what they experienced while in its' confines.

I was raised as a Catholic and while I am so thankful I am not in its' clutches, I am thankful I went to Catholic school for 12 yrs. Why? Firstly, there were some truths that kept me steadfast in my faith. That I was taught there are 3 Persons in One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That Jesus was born of a virgin, died for our sins, resurrected is TRUTH and kept me from getting confused.

2ndly, God has used me to reach out to Catholics as the Holy Spirit leads. Because of my upbringing, I can relate and many Catholics have trusted me.

Interestingly enough, as I was beginning to seek the LORD as a young adult, I recall telling God I wanted to be in the 'one true church'. The RCC taught me it was the one true churc but I knew in my heart it was not. Soon after, He led me to the LC in 1975. I actually believed for a time the LC was 'the one true church'. Operating word: WAS

As most of you know, my experience in the LC as short lived as it was 4- 5 yrs was for the most part a positive one. I did not even hear of Witness Lee until my 4th month in the LC ! Up until then, I was reading, studying, pray reading, fellowshipping which was centered around JESUS.

Just as THE LORD led me in, He led me out.

Good topic for discussion!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I think each person needs to go to the Holy Spirit if they are troubled as to why they were in the LC/LSM. Did God lead them in? Were they coerced and fell into a trap?

Could it be both?

God's will: 14 in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

How do you mature to the point that you are no longer babes? How do you get passed being someone naive enough to fall for the sleight of men?

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

God's will: in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

How do you mature to the point that you are no longer babes? How do you get past being someone naive enough to fall for the sleight of men?

I get the point - we have to get THROUGH getting tossed about. We start out babes, and any Christian teacher with a persuasive message grabs us. It actually was by design that CMW didn't hear of Witness Lee for the first 4-5 months. They were prepping her, by "enjoyment". Eventually you see the real "Lord" of the LC. Not Jesus.

We are to remain NO LONGER as babes. So we go through the "getting tossed and carried about" part. Not fun, rather unpleasant actually, but there it is. The LSM and LC is, in my view, a good example of systematized error. There are, unfortunately, many others. So we learn from our experiences, and go on. And we publish our experiences here, in conversation.

Every August and September, from what I understand, several tens (hundreds?) of thousands of LSM-originated flyers get mailed out to incoming Freshmen at Colleges and Universities across the USA. Most of these students are young, with little experience, and little external guidance. God have mercy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I was raised as a Catholic and while I am so thankful I am not in its' clutches, I am thankful I went to Catholic school for 12 yrs. Why? Firstly, there were some truths that kept me steadfast in my faith. That I was taught there are 3 Persons in One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That Jesus was born of a virgin, died for our sins, resurrected is TRUTH and kept me from getting confused.

Me too. My parochial education was a great preservation to me, like the LAW was a custodian to the Jews. We constantly were challenged with the "faith vs. science" debate, which served to prepare us for the university.

As I entered University, I left all the Catholic tradition, yet still kept my faith in Jesus and the Bible. Later these two bedrocks helped me to be dynamically saved. Then I desired to tell all my Catholic family and friends about Jesus, but the LC filled me with hatred towards Catholicism from the Revelations training.

Today I view idols as nothing, and I can fellowship freely with my Catholic neighbors. That was not always the case for this iconoclast! There are spme real believers and lovers of Jesus in the RCC. It is God's will that our life experiences be used to help and shepherd God's other children.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Me too. My parochial education was a great preservation to me, like the LAW was a custodian to the Jews. We constantly were challenged with the "faith vs. science" debate, which served to prepare us for the university.

As I entered University, I left all the Catholic tradition, yet still kept my faith in Jesus and the Bible. Later these two bedrocks helped me to be dynamically saved. Then I desired to tell all my Catholic family and friends about Jesus, but the LC filled me with hatred towards Catholicism from the Revelations training.

Today I view idols as nothing, and I can fellowship freely with my Catholic neighbors. That was not always the case for this iconoclast! There are spme real believers and lovers of Jesus in the RCC. It is God's will that our life experiences be used to help and shepherd God's other children.

That is how I understand these verses:

7 But to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ.
8 Wherefore he says, Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men.
9 But that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things;

If the Lord has led you out from "the lower parts of the earth" your experience of His grace will help you in leading others out. Hence, your gift is activated and you can be given as a gift to the Body to help perfect other saints.

11 and has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers,
12 for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ;

[JJ]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The question recently is why would it be God's will for us to have experienced the ministry of Witness Lee? Many of us including myself believe that the "Ground of Oneness" doctrine is an error, that the MOTA doctrine is an error, that the deification doctrine is an error, and that the one publication edict is an error.

The excommunications, public ridicule, and lasciviousness of the leaders of LSM are contrary to the word, yet the word also says "all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose". It also says "give thanks for all things". It is hard to "give thanks" unless we understand how this works out for good, and that part of God's will may be a mystery to us. Hence, "the mystery of God's will".

There are a couple of verses concerning God's will that are plain and clear:
1. God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth
2. It is God's will that we give thanks in all things
3. It is God's will that we are sanctified.
4. It is God's will that we silence ignorant talk by doing good.

But, in my opinion, no verse reveals the mystery of God's will more than Ephesians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies.

Great thread start ZNP.

Item 1 helps explain my LC experience for sure.

I was saved and came to know many partial truths in the LC (mostly because I spent a lot of time reading the Bible, and learned an appreciation for the Holy Spirit’s guidance) but needed to leave to continue on the path to full knowledge of the truth.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by JJ

Great thread start ZNP.

Item 1 helps explain my LC experience for sure.

I was saved and came to know many partial truths in the LC (mostly because I spent a lot of time reading the Bible, and learned an appreciation for the Holy Spirit’s guidance) but needed to leave to continue on the path to full knowledge of the truth.

In Genesis we are told “in you all the nations of the Earth will be blessed”. We were blessed in Abraham and Abraham received 7 blessings. Galatians 3:9 says those of faith were blessed with Abraham. Ephesians reveals these 7 blessings. Ephesians reveals the first 6 books of the Bible are organized based on God accomplishing these 7 blessings. From the time God made this promise to Abraham until Solomon dedicated the temple, that entire portion of the Bible is the working out and accomplishment of these 7 blessings. Therefore, these seven blessings reveal “God’s will”, they are a more complete picture of what it is to be saved and understanding this is to come to “the full knowledge of the truth”. It is also clear that these blessings result in our being sanctified which is God’s will. I feel that this phrase “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us” reveals the mystery of God’s will. But to understand that you have to know these seven blessings and how they are revealed in the first six books of the Bible and how this is brought out in Ephesians.

[ZNPaaneah]

A friend of mine has stage 4 cancer, they can't operate, so I have prayed for him to be healed. So the question is this: "is it God's will to heal him"? That question, to me, is the "mystery of God's will".

Ephesians says we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies. Surely this includes the promises that God will hear our prayer. Just like we see with Joseph at the end of the book of Genesis.

So let's look at this a little closer. Our covenant is a contract, a contract is not simply "I will bless you". It has been put into writing, the contract involves blessings to both parties, it is not simply one sided, and then it must be signed legally.

So in Ephesians it says "In Him we obtain an inheritance" or it could also be translated "In Him we are made a heritage". This is the two sided nature of the covenant. Ruth is a very good example. She was a moabitess, but her faith was that "your people will be my people and your God will be my God". Therefore, in her heart she wasn't a moabitess, but rather the widow of an Israelite. God answers her prayer, she does obtain an inheritance, but in so doing she also is made a heritage. That is the mystery of God's will.

Sardonyx is an excellent illustration of this. Sardonyx is the 4th stone in the New Jerusalem and stands next to Emerald which is considered by many to be the most precious of precious stones. Sardonyx is opaque, and looks like a sandwich with a white filling between two dark brown to black layers. You might find it interesting if you picked it up on the beach, but how can this stone stand next to an emerald? The Lord can make it stand. A craftsman comes in and carves through the top layer, creating a border like a frame. Then in the white layer they carve a scene, say a king on his throne with his court around him. Then beneath this white layer, there might be some sinister characters hiding in the shadows. The result is a masterpiece. To change this funny looking stone into a priceless masterpiece is a blessing. Ruth obtains an inheritance, is made a great nation, is blessed, her name is made great, etc. Why? Because in so doing God also obtains a priceless work of art as His heritage. That is the mystery of God's will. Ruth was twice cursed being both a moabitess and a widow, but now she can stand between Joseph and King David.

Finally, the covenant has to be sealed. The seal is done so that there is no doubt who signed the covenant. For example, with Gideon God had to winnow down his army from 30,000 men to 300 men so that no one would claim that Israel had defeated the Midianites by their own hand. Once again, this is the mystery of God's will. He can heal my friend, but in a way that no one can vaunt themselves against God saying it was by their hand.

[ZNPaaneah]

14 in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of *that* teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

God's will is that we would no longer be babes who are defrauded by the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning. When I look at many threads on this forum I think it is fair to compare PL, TL, and WL to an "unprincipled cunning with a view to a systematized error".

That is a strong accusation, but there is certainly enough evidence to bring that charge against these three, and the Lord knows if there is enough to convict.

I consider the ground of the church doctrine, and the attempt to create franchise churches that have standing orders from the ministry and pay fees every six months for various trainings, as a "systematized error" complete with the MOTA doctrine and the one publication doctrine.

So then, if I was merely hearing this in a Bible study class it would make a very small impact, but having lived through it how much more of an impact has this made? So I see this as part of the will of God, but not the "mystery of God's will". It is no mystery, simply part of the normal maturation process of a king, to no longer be so naive and simple to fall for wolves in sheep's clothing.

The mystery of God's will is that this maturation in us will result in God being praised and blessed.

[ZNPaaneah]

10 And David's heart smote him after he had numbered the people. And David said to Jehovah, I have sinned greatly in what I have done; and now, I beseech thee, Jehovah, put away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

One of the blessings of Abraham is that God would make of us a great nation, not David. According to Ephesians God blessed us with these blessings "to the praise of His glory". David trying to seek the glory that was due God was a great sin. David thinking that Israel becoming a great nation was due to him was also a great sin of arrogance.

This is the mystery of God's will.

[ZNPaaneah]

The mystery of God's will in Philippians is that I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

The book begins with a communion created by God. Jesus takes the form of a servant and Paul, Timothy and Epaphroditus are in communion with God having the same mind as Jesus. They are tested, their faith is proven to be genuine, and we know the proof of them. So that we might know Him. So that we might also experience resurrection and the communion of Christ's sufferings.

All of that is the prerequisite for us to "lay hold of that for which we have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus".

But, to do that we need to "forget the things behind" and "press on to the High calling of God".