How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Gubei

I agree with you, Ohio.

I was writing how it was ridiculously developed in appointing coworkers and elders in Seoul even from the viewpoint of those who accept "only apostle appointing elders principle"

Even for those who naively believe that only "apostles" can appoint elders around the globe, we must examine the qualifications of an apostle, and the credentials of Andrew Yu. What qualifies AY as apostle over Seoul, Korea? Did he establish that church? Does he even speak Korean? Does he have any fruit there? Or is he just one of the Blended Super-Apostles sent from headquarters which Paul battled during his ministry, and exposes in II Cor chapters 11-12, yet has no signs (12.12) of an apostle?

In Galatians 2, Paul rejected the "authority" of the fake apostles sent "from James." Paul even rebuked the apostle Peter for acting contrary to the truth, unknowingly bringing the Antioch believers under subjection to the decrees of the leaders in Jerusalem. It was not just circumcision and kosher regulations that Paul objected to, it was everything emanating from the old system in Jerusalem. He fought the good fight of the faith that the Gentile churches would never be brought under the bondage of a man-made church headquarters.

Every decision LSM has made in the last 30 years has had their own selfish interests in view. Thousands of testimonies confirm this. They are nothing more than a business, peddling the word of God for profit. They appoint elders and workers which further their business agenda. They do not make decisions with the actual shepherding care of the saints in view, nor the anointed direction of the Head of the body.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Even for those who naively believe that only "apostles" can appoint elders around the globe, we must examine the qualifications of an apostle, and the credentials of Andrew Yu. What qualifies AY as apostle over Seoul, Korea? Did he establish that church? Does he even speak Korean? Does he have any fruit there? Or is he just one of the Blended Super-Apostles sent from headquarters which Paul battled during his ministry, and exposes in II Cor chapters 11-12, yet has no signs (12.12) of an apostle?

In Galatians 2, Paul rejected the "authority" of the fake apostles sent "from James." Paul even rebuked the apostle Peter for acting contrary to the truth, unknowingly bringing the Antioch believers under subjection to the decrees of the leaders in Jerusalem. It was not just circumcision and kosher regulations that Paul objected to, it was everything emanating from the old system in Jerusalem. He fought the good fight of the faith that the Gentile churches would never be brought under the bondage of a man-made church headquarters.

Every decision LSM has made in the last 30 years has had their own selfish interests in view. Thousands of testimonies confirm this. They are nothing more than a business, peddling the word of God for profit. They appoint elders and workers which further their business agenda. They do not make decisions with the actual shepherding care of the saints in view, nor the anointed direction of the Head of the body.

Ohio, You are correct. I don’t believe AY is qualified to be an apostle to South Korea. By no means is he related with any foundational work in this country.

He might think that even though he did not establish the church in Seoul, he had the qualification to appoint elders in Seoul on ground that he is the minister of this age, which position he might regard as having been relayed to him from Witness Lee.

The case of South Korea gives us a very meaningful insights surrounding “only apostles can appoint elders principle”. At first sight, this principle sounded very convincing and plausible to me 30 years ago, but as time went by, I realized that in reality this principle cannot be applied as intended, because in order to strictly abide by this principle we first have to trace back to the qualification of anyone’s apostleship which usually leads us to nowhere. In case of Seoul, who was “the” apostle? Mr. Kown (also called Mr. Wang)?, Mr. Y? Mr. S? WL? AY? RK?

In my business office, one senior used to ask his juniors jokingly “what is a leader?”. There were a lot of answers from the juniors like a guy with vision for business prosperity, a guy who knows well how to operate, a guy who has a charisma etc… he just listened to those, and finally gave us his answer. “A leader is the guy who has his followers”. An analogy is possible with apostleship. Apostleship needs those who accept it.

Then, why was it possible for AY to have appointed elders in Seoul? In fact, even WL didn’t dare to do that when he was alive.
An possible explanation I can conjecture, and I think this is most likely according to my observation and other sources, is that AY could behave like an apostle because there are some Korean leading brothers who aimed at “political benefit” when they admire AY as an apostle. In return, the admirers’ control power in Korea grew strong accordingly. In worst case, this is a dark bargain, and in a moderate case, this is irresponsible power struggle, at best?... might be ignorance of the truth and thoughtlessness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Gubei

The case of South Korea gives us a very meaningful insights surrounding “only apostles can appoint elders principle”. At first sight, this principle sounded very convincing and plausible to me 30 years ago, but as time went by, I realized that in reality this principle cannot be applied as intended, because in order to strictly abide by this principle we first have to trace back to the qualification of anyone’s apostleship which usually leads us to nowhere. In case of Seoul, who was “the” apostle? Mr. Kown (also called Mr. Wang)?, Mr. Y? Mr. S? WL? AY? RK?

Regarding Nee's teaching, based on Acts 14.23 and Titus 1.5, the most we can conclude is that it happened. The Bible described what happened, yet never prescribed that it must happen this way. There is no teaching that demands that the apostle alone can appoint elders.

This errant teaching can only work for initial church startups. What happens when the original apostle passes away? What about the subsequent centuries? Are we then at the mercy of self-appointed apostles who appoint elders whose only qualification is loyalty to headquarters? Unfortunately that has happened far too often. Yet the Bible never tells us that the church belongs to the apostles, rather the church is of God and is of the saints.

Originally Posted by Gubei

In my business office, one senior used to ask his juniors jokingly “what is a leader?”. There were a lot of answers from the juniors like a guy with vision for business prosperity, a guy who knows well how to operate, a guy who has a charisma etc… he just listened to those, and finally gave us his answer. “A leader is the guy who has his followers”. An analogy is possible with apostleship. Apostleship needs those who accept it.

And this is why LSM manipulates LC elders and workers. I watched many gifted brothers in the LC's get drafted as workers, and then are forced to migrate away from their home church. This creates a ministry "vacuum" in that church, that only LSM can fill. Then LSM will send their workers to that church to minister. This is how these false apostles create needy "followers" in these LC's.

Originally Posted by Gubei

Then, why was it possible for AY to have appointed elders in Seoul? In fact, even WL didn’t dare to do that when he was alive.
An possible explanation I can conjecture, and I think this is most likely according to my observation and other sources, is that AY could behave like an apostle because there are some Korean leading brothers who aimed at “political benefit” when they admire AY as an apostle. In return, the admirers’ control power in Korea grew strong accordingly. In worst case, this is a dark bargain, and in a moderate case, this is irresponsible power struggle, at best?... might be ignorance of the truth and thoughtlessness.

You are right. LSM can make promises to certain local leaders. Let's be honest, some elders are vulnerable to bribes of various kinds.

Before Titus Chu was quarantined, two leaders in Chicago of the Midwest region in the USA were "bribed" by the blendeds at LSM. Money was given to them in order to pay for their meeting hall expansion. They compromised the truth for financial gain. Then they agreed to turn on Titus Chu, and agree with the evil quarantine. Dirty politics at its worst.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are right. LSM can make promises to certain local leaders. Let's be honest, some elders are vulnerable to bribes of various kinds.

Before Titus Chu was quarantined, two leaders in Chicago of the Midwest region in the USA were "bribed" by the blendeds at LSM. Money was given to them in order to pay for their meeting hall expansion. They compromised the truth for financial gain. Then they agreed to turn on Titus Chu, and agree with the evil quarantine. Dirty politics at its worst.

So sad to hear this story of Midwest... BTW, similar suspicions are prevalent among some "concerned" Korean brothers, most of them have been sidelined already though. One difference is that the direction of financial stuff seems to be opposite here.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

Interestingly, I'm an ex-member of the pentecostal church by David Yonggi Cho, that's when I was an elementary schooler though. I remember David Yonggi Cho's early ministry was quite sound but as his church got bigger, problems crept in, especially his son's too secular engagement in a business and his marriage to a famous actress were shocking enough to me at that time.

We had a discussion on David Yonggi Cho on this forum in 2014; here are some interesting points made by a participant:

Originally Posted by bearbear

The pastor of the largest congregation in the world with 1 million members allegedly fell into the same type of sins as Witness Lee: he made decisions showing that he loved his sons more than the church and broke enough laws to possibly land him and his son in jail for 3 years. The allegations against him are startlingly similar to Witness Lee:

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/...vid-yonggi-cho

"Cho has three sons. The second and third sons are very productive and work in church-related ministries. His eldest son has been the prodigal. He has been married four times and has been involved in sexual scandals with national personalities. In addition, he has served prison time for investment scams and embezzlement. His scandalized life has been an embarrassment to his family and the church.

Twelve years ago, this son purposely defrauded the church in excess of $12 million in a stock-related scheme. Cho testified that he trusted his elders and son and didn’t check and read the thousands of pages of paperwork, which was prepared for him to sign. Because Cho relied upon the direction of his choice elders and son, he signed the papers. He never received any monies from the transaction."

We had this discussion at a church planning retreat because our church has both english and chinese ministry and we realized we needed to reconcile many differences in culture and communication.

Here are some of the conclusions we reached with my own views thrown in:

Chinese and asians in general are culturally trained to obey first and ask questions later. We're a culture that honors, respects and tries not to challenge authority. So we're much more susceptible to hero worship and unquestioningly following leaders. Things tend to be more black and white. We like following commands and absolutes.

Westerners on the other hand need to have dialogue, discussion and back and forth before committing to things. The culture is not as leader oriented as asians though it can be.

For example, when someone doesn't participate or ask questions during a group discussion led by an authority figure, westerners take that to mean that this person is not contributing. However for asians, a person who is asking questions and challenging ideas is more likely to be viewed as a trouble maker and a usurper of authority.

I think God was merciful to Cho for exposing his sin while he is alive so he could repent. He expressed great sorrow during his last sermon and said he was unworthy to enter the kingdom of God. That's the kind of thing you'd never hear that from Witness Lee's mouth so perhaps he is a bit more different.

Here's another article that's a bit more negative:

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/engli...al/611326.html

One of the former elders at the press conference, Ha Sang-ok, previously admitted to taking part in giving 1.5 billion won (US$1.4 million) while collecting the book “Madame Butterfly in Paris” from a female vocalist in France named Jeong who anonymously wrote the account about an affair with Cho.

“A sect leader might violate the commandments and do as he wishes, but a pastor cannot do that,” Ha said. “Over the past 14 years, I have met with Rev. Cho many times to try to persuade him to repent and return to being a great pastor, but the corruption has continued. That‘s why I had no choice but to disclose it to the outside world.”

Here's an article hinting at his possible remorse and repentance:
http://www.christiantoday.com/articl....12m/35994.htm

"God forbid, if God calls me back today, I will still be able to go to the Kingdom of God," he was quoted by the website as saying.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

We had a discussion on David Yonggi Cho on this forum in 2014; here are some interesting points made by a participant:

Thanks for the links. Yes, that's what has happened in my country. So sad.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Gubei

Thanks for the links. Yes, that's what has happened in my country. So sad.

Aron wrote:
We had a discussion on David Yonggi Cho on this forum in 2014;

Back in the day, we former LCrs touched on the 7 churches in Revelation. I recall being fascinated by Nee's book 'the orthodox of the church'. The last time I looked at it, I saw Lee's handprints on it and thus I was somewat disappointed in it. It was tainted.

In any case, the Word is still clear. We are told in Revelation 2:6-7 as the Lord is reprimending the church in Ephesus thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches He repeats it again in vs 15. (I recall reading that when a scripture or word is repeated twice such as when Jesus says Truly, Truly, it is very important and thus we are to pay attention.)


I don't know how much light was shed by Lee on the study of the Nicolaetians. Was it a 'wink wink' ?

Recently I have been given these scriptures some thought and have been doing some studying/research on the meaning and practice of the Nicolaetians.

From the article Doctrine or Teaching of the Nicolaitans and Church Government:

the Teaching of the Nicolaitans is basically when religious leaders rule over others. This is something God hates because man was always to be ruled only by its creator. So who is our creator? Our creator is YHWH, creator of the universe. So then how can the so-called evangelists, priests, pope and other ministers rule over us under the banner of religion? The reason is we have allowed it to happen. The day when we tell God that we want to follow religious leaders, then God allows these leaders to rule over us. This is the teaching that YHWH hates.

From the time of creation, man was to obey God and listen to God, not men. This was the system that was put in place by God. Because of our rebellion towards God, we created our own man made religious system where we started to listen to what men tell us. The system that Nimrod once started still flourishes all around the world. In today’s system, we give our support to the church that tells us what to do. God is just a picture of imagination for these churches. This is the reason why God is not real for millions of people in this world. We have put our trust and faith in men and in churches, who we believe can save us, which is the doctrine of Nicolaitans that originated from Nimrod, the father of all Nicolaitans. This is the doctrine and teaching that God hates.
Teaching of the Nicolaitans is basically when religious leaders rule over others. This is something God hates because man was always to be ruled only by its creator. So who is our creator? Our creator is YHWH, creator of the universe. So then how can the so-called evangelists, priests, pope and other ministers rule over us under the banner of religion? The reason is we have allowed it to happen. The day when we tell God that we want to follow religious leaders, then God allows these leaders to rule over us. This is the teaching that YHWH hates.

From the time of creation, man was to obey God and listen to God, not men. This was the system that was put in place by God. Because of our rebellion towards God, we created our own manmade religious system where we started to listen to what men tell us. The system that Nimrod once started still flourishes all around the world. In today’s system, we give our support to the church that tells us what to do.

God is just a picture of imagination for these churches. This is the reason why God is not real for millions of people in this world. We have put our trust and faith in men and in churches, who we believe can save us, which is the doctrine of Nicolaitans that originated from Nimrod, the father of all Nicolaitans. This is the doctrine and teaching that God hates.

Food for thought.