Greetings from NYC!

[Lumosityfan]

Hello everyone,

I'm very glad I found this site because I've been trying to find more in-depth details about the Local Church like whether it's a cult and whether I should keep on going to it. Initially I thought it wouldn't be that bad, just having weird rituals but overall biblically sound. However, perusing through this site and other Christian sites that discussed the matter, I realized the truth behind the Local Church movement that has cautioned me towards being involved with it in the future (things like not caring for the poor, lack of true evangelism, biblical controversies concerning their interpretation of the Bible, scandals concerning the leadership, the fact that you can't question leadership which is just plain stupid (I mean people in the Bible questioned each other all the time and God didn't bat an eye), and the issue that Witness Lee is considered equal to Jesus Christ in the Local Church which I just threw up thinking about). I actually joined the Local Church initially 3 years ago from a college friend of mine who invited me to one of their college dinners and kept on going through their events, thinking again it wasn't that bad. However, I actually didn't grow up in the Local Church thankfully but from my church back home which is not even close to being affiliated with the Local Church thankfully. I see people have had difficulties adjusting to normal church life after leaving the Local Church and I, having done the opposite having entered the Local Church life from the inside, would love to assist those who don't know what it's like to live in the world outside the Local Church. If you need help in those matters, please do not hesitate to PM me; I can give you plethora of data concerning what it's like to live in a "normal" church, having done so for 9 years now (and having enjoyed every single minute of it ) As I mentioned before, I'm so thankful I found this site as it has informed me and I hope I can be of use here. (And sorry if this is quite the long paragraph; I tend to do that a lot )

Sincerely,
Lumosityfan

[Ohio]

Welcome Lumosityfan!

The Ohio area where I was and NYC were always concerned "lukewarm" by headquarters in Anaheim. That was a good thing for those leaving their program.

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Welcome Lumosityfan!

The Ohio area where I was and NYC were always concerned "lukewarm" by headquarters in Anaheim. That was a good thing for those leaving their program.

That's good to hear and I def feel like the events in NYC concerning how they run stuff and their teachings are less extreme than some of the horror stories I've heard about on this website from Anaheim and elsewhere (which is great because, um, I would have probably been thrown out by now for protesting considering my nature :| ) Just curious what do you mean by "lukewarm?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

That's good to hear and I def feel like the events in NYC concerning how they run stuff and their teachings are less extreme than some of the horror stories I've heard about on this website from Anaheim and elsewhere (which is great because, um, I would have probably been thrown out by now for protesting considering my nature :| ) Just curious what do you mean by "lukewarm?

Not "lukewarm" as the Bible teaches, but not as zealous for LSM and their programs as the Blendeds wanted.

That's why the leaders of the Midwest region was excommunicated.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

I see people have had difficulties adjusting to normal church life after leaving the Local Church and I, having done the opposite having entered the Local Church life from the inside, would love to assist those who don't know what it's like to live in the world outside the Local Church. If you need help in those matters, please do not hesitate to PM me; I can give you plethora of data concerning what it's like to live in a "normal" church, having done so for 9 years now (and having enjoyed every single minute of it ) As I mentioned before, I'm so thankful I found this site as it has informed me and I hope I can be of use here. (And sorry if this is quite the long paragraph; I tend to do that a lot )

That is an awesome offer Lumo - thank you! I think your service is much needed and I hope that those in the LSM churches take the time to reach out to you and receive wise and loving fellowship. A few questions especially for those who "live inside the world" of the Local Church.

What if Witness Lee isn't who he claimed to be?

What if Lee's "recovery" isn't really a recovery at all?

If you're with a group dedicated to Lee's works and his recovery - what are the implications of that for your life?

What if you sold out for Jesus, His works, His gospel message instead? How would His Spirit work in and through you?

What if you pursued loving those around you with the same fervor and energy used to preach and defend the teachings of Witness Lee?

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

That is an awesome offer Lumo - thank you! I think your service is much needed and I hope that those in the LSM churches take the time to reach out to you and receive wise and loving fellowship. A few questions especially for those who "live inside the world" of the Local Church.

What if Witness Lee isn't who he claimed to be?

What if Lee's "recovery" isn't really a recovery at all?

If you're with a group dedicated to Lee's works and his recovery - what are the implications of that for your life?

What if you sold out for Jesus, His works, His gospel message instead? How would His Spirit work in and through you?

What if you pursued loving those around you with the same fervor and energy used to preach and defend the teachings of Witness Lee?

No problem! I have high compassion for the people in the Local Church both because I feel somewhat called to help them out and because I just feel compelled to help people in need in general. (God calling that to happen certainly helps ) I do have a question concerning the Local Church: I've been thinking of leaving but I've heard horror stories of people being unable to leave peacefully even if the person did so in a proper way (treating them with respect, not causing a scene, etc.) In addition, I heard stories about people getting cut off from their friends inside the LC and I would still love to have connections with them as friends (although certainly not as LC members ofc). What would be the best way of doing so?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What if you pursued loving those around you with the same fervor and energy used to preach and defend the teachings of Witness Lee?

Wow, that question says a lot.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

What would be the best way of doing so?

It would help to remain anonymous on the forum.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

I heard stories about people getting cut off from their friends inside the LC

I faced that problem. I came in with a dozen Jr. & High school friends, and brought others in.

And yes, for a number of years I lost them. The elder told them I was a serpent.

But eventually they left too, or got the boot, and came back.

Leaving the LC hurt a lot, and deeply. Right up there with the loss of my son. But the Lord wants what the Lord wants.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

I would still love to have connections with them as friends (although certainly not as LC members ofc). What would be the best way of doing so?

Don't mention friendship, for starters. It is taboo. The word companions, loving each other is ok to say, but not friendship. Actually, some will use the word friendship to blend with ones they consider outside the ministry, but it's all smoke and mirrors, not actual friendship.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

I've been thinking of leaving but I've heard horror stories of people being unable to leave peacefully even if the person did so in a proper way (treating them with respect, not causing a scene, etc.) In addition, I heard stories about people getting cut off from their friends inside the LC and I would still love to have connections with them as friends (although certainly not as LC members ofc). What would be the best way of doing so?

Lum,

I'll tell you my experience, but I don't claim it to be the "best way". All I can say is that over two years later I still have peace about it and have seen the Lord's hand at work in awesome ways.

My wife and I just stopped showing up to meetings. Home meetings, Lord's Day Meetings, etc. I had regular fellowship with 3-4 Full-Timers (one and elder, others who were not) who had an understanding of my thought process to varying degrees. We NEVER had any conversations that would be considered disrespectful from either side. In fact, most saw it coming. One commented that they better introduce me to the high peak truths or else I would be out the door. They knew the system was deeply flawed, but had bought into the program and were working through the flaws - rather than admit the reality of their position.

I've shared this in other posts, but we were treated great in the LSM church. I used to joke that we were treated like rockstars. Invited to multiple people's homes each week, approached by the "saints" after each meeting, invited to fellowship with the cool kids and the top elders.

Then we stopped going.

No one, to this day, has reached out to me see how I was doing, ask me about my wife, kid, etc. These are people I met with, ate with, travelled with (I bet you can guess where we went in December), prayed with, sang with... then poof.

Nothing.

My wife did get a text from the "sister" who introduced her to the LSM church. She questioned why we weren't going and that people were asking about us. She told her that I felt it was best for our family if we left the LSM church and that we'd love to stay in touch and could chat more about it if she liked. She never took her up on that offer.

I've texted little "how are you doing bro's" here and there and get a polite one sentence response. But the fact is if you're not in the LSM church they don't have an interest in doing life together, no more workouts, lunches, dinner invites, you're cut off.

Now to be fair, a few months after leaving the church the Lord moved my family to a city with no LSM church (sometimes He has to make things really obvious for me - haha!). But since we had no interactions they didn't know for a long time (maybe to this day) that we weren't, literally, still right around the corner.

I found this site a couple months after leaving. It is a helpful place for many people.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Lum,

Then we stopped going.

No one, to this day, has reached out to me see how I was doing, ask me about my wife, kid, etc. These are people I met with, ate with, travelled with (I bet you can guess where we went in December), prayed with, sang with... then poof.

Nothing.

My wife did get a text from the "sister" who introduced her to the LSM church. She questioned why we weren't going and that people were asking about us. She told her that I felt it was best for our family if we left the LSM church and that we'd love to stay in touch and could chat more about it if she liked. She never took her up on that offer.

I've texted little "how are you doing bro's" here and there and get a polite one sentence response. But the fact is if you're not in the LSM church they don't have an interest in doing life together, no more workouts, lunches, dinner invites, you're cut off.

I have been meeting with about 7-12 people for bible study ONLY for about 2 yrs now. Every Wednesday we have a potlock before our study and even during our study we still eat and some people drink WINE.

A few months ago, my brother moved in with me temporarily and began going to the bible study with me. He loves to bake desserts and has not only made desserts for the group but for individuals whose spirit he wanted to lift.

His kind heartedness rubbed off on me. So I began making home made entrees, not only for the bible study group but for friends from the bible study who stopped coming because of a pow - wow. We are a rowdy bunch who sometimes disagree. The leaders have a sibling and they often butt heads. There are also a few really sick people in our group so I have been taking them home cooked meals on a weekly basis. A few are mourning the passing of loved ones.

Some of us are getting together for game night too. We have a blast. I pray A LOT for my bible study friends. I also encourage them in the LORD, IN His Word, in the Spirit. We are such a motley crew!!! And we are not on the same page spiritually speaking. But we have a strong love for each other.

Only reason I am sharing what I am doing is 'churchers' including LC/LSM care for people superficially. It pained me to read the only time LCrs check in on people is to enquire why they are not going to the meetings.

Jesus was friends with Mary, Martha and Lazarus. I want to love people as Jesus does, care for them as He does.

May God through His Holy Spirit help us to be the people Jesus created us to be.. Lights in this dark world..filled with HIS LOVE.

Showers of Blessings to all

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

....and the issue that Witness Lee is considered equal to Jesus Christ in the Local Church which I just threw up thinking about).

Sincerely,
Lumosityfan

No one I know or ever knew thought that.

Who said that to you?

Drake

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

No one I know or ever knew thought that.

Who said that to you?

Drake

When LCers take Lees' interpretation of scripture as The Only Teaching, The One Publication, Doctrine.....even if it is wrong....that is the same as elevating Lee over Christ. I see it. Anybody else?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

When LCers take Lees' interpretation of scripture as The Only Teaching, The One Publication, Doctrine.....even if it is wrong....that is the same as elevating Lee over Christ. I see it. Anybody else?

Wait!

You are compounding the original error... who said “only teaching”? The “one publication” does not mean the only publication, and I have no idea what you mean by “doctrine”,, what about it? Doctrine what?

It is a great blasphemy to elevate anyone equal or above the Lord Jesus ... it is a serious matter touching His headship. Even an accusation of it stated carelessly or in ignorance as in the OT is disturbing. Your apparent misunderstanding only compounds a serious error. That accusation better be attended with substantive documented evidence.

Drake

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

Wait!

You are compounding the original error... who said “only teaching”? The “one publication” does not mean the only publication, and I have no idea what you mean by “doctrine”,, what about it? Doctrine what?

It is a great blasphemy to elevate anyone equal or above the Lord Jesus ... it is a serious matter touching His headship. Even an accusation of it stated carelessly or in ignorance as in the OT is disturbing. Your apparent misunderstanding only compounds a serious error. That accusation better be attended with substantive documented evidence.

Drake

Drake, when the Local Church of Witness Lee divides from their brothers and sisters of faith, the body of Christ , over their allegiance to Lee, or their lack of loyalty to Lee.....Lee has become elevated above Jesus, an idol. This is what I see. All the quarantines are documented, are they not? I know the quarantine of Titus Chu is on youtube. There is so much documented evidence! What about Speaking The Truth in Love? What about all the saints testimonies here? They are documented. We have all read them. Some have been on the receiving end of the divisions. Are you seriously testifying to us all and before the Lord the elevation of Lee isn't real?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Wait!

You are compounding the original error... who said “only teaching”? The “one publication” does not mean the only publication, and I have no idea what you mean by “doctrine”,, what about it? Doctrine what?

It is a great blasphemy to elevate anyone equal or above the Lord Jesus ... it is a serious matter touching His headship. Even an accusation of it stated carelessly or in ignorance as in the OT is disturbing. Your apparent misunderstanding only compounds a serious error. That accusation better be attended with substantive documented evidence.

Drake

Wait a minute. Titus Chu and others were excommunicated for not adhering to your one publication, one teaching, one doctrine, one practice, one trumpet nonsense.

And you are just finding this out now?

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Drake, when the Local Church of Witness Lee divides from their brothers and sisters of faith, the body of Christ , over their allegiance to Lee, or their lack of loyalty to Lee.....Lee has become elevated above Jesus, an idol. This is what I see. All the quarantines are documented, are they not? I know the quarantine of Titus Chu is on youtube. There is so much documented evidence! What about Speaking The Truth in Love? What about all the saints testimonies here? They are documented. We have all read them. Some have been on the receiving end of the divisions. Are you seriously testifying to us all and before the Lord the elevation of Lee isn't real?

Exactly this. My point was the Local Churches have put the words of Witness Less above even the Scriptures inspired by Jesus Christ himself. That speaks a lot to the nature of the Local Churches when you won't focus on just the Scriptures but rather feel the need to equate a mortal man's teachings with the immortal being's creation of the Bible and the Gospel. That's my main issue. (Also people treating Lee like a God, treating him as the main person of interpretation considering the Word of God and how basically no other interpretations are valid says a lot as to the Local Churches' viewpoint towards Witness Lee).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Drake, when the Local Church of Witness Lee divides from their brothers and sisters of faith, the body of Christ , over their allegiance to Lee, or their lack of loyalty to Lee.....Lee has become elevated above Jesus, an idol. This is what I see. All the quarantines are documented, are they not? I know the quarantine of Titus Chu is on youtube. There is so much documented evidence! What about Speaking The Truth in Love? What about all the saints testimonies here? They are documented. We have all read them. Some have been on the receiving end of the divisions. Are you seriously testifying to us all and before the Lord the elevation of Lee isn't real?

Over the years, many dear brothers and sisters were forced to choose whether their allegiance was to the Lord Jesus or to Witness Lee. That's what all the quarantines were all about.

Drake constantly pretends this was never so.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Drake, when the Local Church of Witness Lee divides from their brothers and sisters of faith, the body of Christ , over their allegiance to Lee, or their lack of loyalty to Lee.....Lee has become elevated above Jesus, an idol. This is what I see. All the quarantines are documented, are they not? I know the quarantine of Titus Chu is on youtube. There is so much documented evidence! What about Speaking The Truth in Love? What about all the saints testimonies here? They are documented. We have all read them. Some have been on the receiving end of the divisions. Are you seriously testifying to us all and before the Lord the elevation of Lee isn't real?

ByHisMercy,

I suggest you think about the construct of your argument. You are inflating things to the status of “elevated above Jesus” without justifiable cause or reason. If a quarantine or excommunication is elevating above Jesus then Paul is guilty of it. That is not idolatry. What you claim as documentation is not evidence that Brother Lee was equal to the Lord. No one I know thinks that. That is not the problem, rather the problem here is that accusation is a misunderstanding as in the case of the base post. You are compounding that error with frivolous unsubstantiated connectors... like accusing someone handing out Dixie cups of spiking the punch, the fallacy of jumping to a conclusion, only this error has spiritual consequences.

Consensus is also a false argument. So what if everyone in this forum agreed with you? it does not strengthen the validity of the argument one iota. Rather it could just as well indicate a serious problem of group think.

That is why I asked the OP who told him/her. Maybe someone said it and that is what is we need to know. Instead of calling every issue an elevation above Jesus how bout we hear the facts first?

Drake

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Over the years, many dear brothers and sisters were forced to choose whether their allegiance was to the Lord Jesus or to Witness Lee. That's what all the quarantines were all about.

Drake constantly pretends this was never so.

I noticed that. Also documented is every lawsuit filed against other parties composed of believers, in violation of scripture....the litigious LSM ignores Gods' word and goes after their brothers and sisters in Christ as a pitbull for the throat of its prey. How many such ungodly lawsuits are documented? More than 20 but less than 50?

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHisMercy,

I suggest you think about the construct of your argument. You are inflating things to the status of “elevated above Jesus” without justifiable cause or reason. If a quarantine or excommunication is elevating above Jesus then Paul is guilty of it. That is not idolatry. What you claim as documentation is not evidence that Brother Lee was equal to the Lord. No one I know thinks that. That is not the problem, rather the problem here is that accusation is a misunderstanding as in the case of the base post. You are compounding that error with frivolous unsubstantiated connectors... like accusing someone handing out Dixie cups of spiking the punch, the fallacy of jumping to a conclusion, only this error has spiritual consequences.

Consensus is also a false argument. So what if everyone in this forum agreed with you? it does not strengthen the validity of the argument one iota. Rather it could just as well indicate a serious problem of group think.

That is why I asked the OP who told him/her. Maybe someone said it and that is what is we need to know. Instead of calling every issue an elevation above Jesus how bout we hear the facts first?

Drake

Reading through this forum, various Christian websites, things from the Interwebs brought me to those conclusions.

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I have been meeting with about 7-12 people for bible study ONLY for about 2 yrs now. Every Wednesday we have a potlock before our study and even during our study we still eat and some people drink WINE.

A few months ago, my brother moved in with me temporarily and began going to the bible study with me. He loves to bake desserts and has not only made desserts for the group but for individuals whose spirit he wanted to lift.

His kind heartedness rubbed off on me. So I began making home made entrees, not only for the bible study group but for friends from the bible study who stopped coming because of a pow - wow. We are a rowdy bunch who sometimes disagree. The leaders have a sibling and they often butt heads. There are also a few really sick people in our group so I have been taking them home cooked meals on a weekly basis. A few are mourning the passing of loved ones.

Some of us are getting together for game night too. We have a blast. I pray A LOT for my bible study friends. I also encourage them in the LORD, IN His Word, in the Spirit. We are such a motley crew!!! And we are not on the same page spiritually speaking. But we have a strong love for each other.

Only reason I am sharing what I am doing is 'churchers' including LC/LSM care for people superficially. It pained me to read the only time LCrs check in on people is to enquire why they are not going to the meetings.

Jesus was friends with Mary, Martha and Lazarus. I want to love people as Jesus does, care for them as He does.

May God through His Holy Spirit help us to be the people Jesus created us to be.. Lights in this dark world..filled with HIS LOVE.

Showers of Blessings to all

That sounds awesome. I hope that whatever church I attend in the future has such things because who doesn't like free food? In all seriousness, what I love about churches outside of the Local Church is that they focus more on fellowship and individual growth in helping each other grow rather than just focusing on the economy of God and building up of the church (which honestly just means helping each other growing in God - sure it's important but it really doesn't need to be phrased in such a honky-tonky way). It helps the church I go to when I'm back home is pretty similar to that (although maybe not to that extent).

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHisMercy,

I suggest you think about the construct of your argument. You are inflating things to the status of “elevated above Jesus” without justifiable cause or reason. If a quarantine or excommunication is elevating above Jesus then Paul is guilty of it. That is not idolatry. What you claim as documentation is not evidence that Brother Lee was equal to the Lord. No one I know thinks that. That is not the problem, rather the problem here is that accusation is a misunderstanding as in the case of the base post. You are compounding that error with frivolous unsubstantiated connectors... like accusing someone handing out Dixie cups of spiking the punch, the fallacy of jumping to a conclusion, only this error has spiritual consequences.

Consensus is also a false argument. So what if everyone in this forum agreed with you? it does not strengthen the validity of the argument one iota. Rather it could just as well indicate a serious problem of group think.

That is why I asked the OP who told him/her. Maybe someone said it and that is what is we need to know. Instead of calling every issue an elevation above Jesus how bout we hear the facts first?

Drake

Lol, thank you so much, Drake...I rarely laugh out loud that hard, and well. A serious problem of group think? Me thinks the pot cannot see his own reflection.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

Exactly this. My point was the Local Churches have put the words of Witness Less above even the Scriptures inspired by Jesus Christ himself. That speaks a lot to the nature of the Local Churches when you won't focus on just the Scriptures but rather feel the need to equate a mortal man's teachings with the immortal being's creation of the Bible and the Gospel. That's my main issue. (Also people treating Lee like a God, treating him as the main person of interpretation considering the Word of God and how basically no other interpretations are valid says a lot as to the Local Churches' viewpoint towards Witness Lee).

Okay... you’re a sola scriptura Christian... and any mortal mans teaching is wrong and not to be compared with “the Immortal Being’s creation of the Bible and the Gospel”.

You are entitled to hold that view but it is wrong according the Scripture you claim to adhere to. Suggest you study Ephesians and how the work of ministry produces the Body of Christ through the gifts He gives to the Church.

Thanks for sharing,

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

Reading through this forum, various Christian websites, things from the Interwebs brought me to those conclusions.

Luminosity,

That is your evidence that Christians in the local churches equate Brother Lee to the Lord Jesus?

Yet, what do people IN the local churches say? That was your point wasn’t it? So what do they say to substantiate your allegation?

Drake

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

Okay... you’re a sola scriptura Christian... and any mortal mans teaching is wrong and not to be compared with “the Immortal Being’s creation of the Bible and the Gospel”.

You are entitled to hold that view but it is wrong according the Scripture you claim to adhere to. Suggest you study Ephesians and how the work of ministry produces the Body of Christ through the gifts He gives to the Church.

Thanks for sharing,

Drake

The problem isn't using mortal man's teachings to educate us in the Lord - far from it. Indeed, we need people to educate us about the Bible and guide us towards better understanding of the Bible. 1 Peter 5:1-4 says "So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory." Honestly one of the most important people I can credit to my journey with Jesus Christ is Rick Warren, for his book A Purpose Driven Life helped guide me as I started a new journey with the Lord. In addition, one of the elders in my church began with me on my journey by guiding me whom I can say is one of the most important people as well. That being said, notice how it says those people should "not domineer over those in your charge". When you excommunicate half of your congregation purely because of disagreements over non-biblical stuff and you bring down lawsuits against people who simply want to reveal the truth, it shows that you don't really care about helping those you are supposed to care about. In addition, the problem is that the Local Church equates Witness Lee with Jesus Christ in terms of his teachings. Paul says in Philippians 3:12-14 that "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." He understands that he's not even close to being God or Jesus Christ but rather that he should give himself up towards serving God.

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

Luminosity,

That is your evidence that Christians in the local churches equate Brother Lee to the Lord Jesus?

Yet, what do people IN the local churches say? That was your point wasn’t it? So what do they say to substantiate your allegation?

Drake

I happen to have read similar things from people in the Local Churches who have posted here. (I've read a good amount of stuff in this forum already)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Lol, thank you so much, Drake...I rarely laugh out loud that hard, and well. A serious problem of group think? Me thinks the pot cannot see his own reflection.

ByHisMercy,

I’m always delighted to bring a moment of happiness to you. Seriously. We all need that however it comes about.

But, yes, this forum is a quintessential example of group think and the behaviors that issue from it. That is why asking for validation of your beliefs from others who hold the same beliefs is meaningless. Luminosity fell into the same error. It’s like CNN asking MSNBC if they agree with them..... of course they do but that does not validate the CNN point of view. I think the spirit of the age we see playing out on the national stage is also affecting social media, even Christian forums like this one.

Drake

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHisMercy,

I’m always delighted to bring a moment of happiness to you. Seriously. We all need that however it comes about.

But, yes, this forum is a quintessential example of group think and the behaviors that issue from it. That is why asking for validation of your beliefs from others who hold the same beliefs is meaningless. Luminosity fell into the same error. It’s like CNN asking MSNBC if they agree with them..... of course they do but that does not validate the CNN point of view. I think the spirit of the age we see playing out on the national stage is also affecting social media, even Christian forums like this one.

Drake

How funny you say that when the Local Churches is basically groupthink. (Trust me the difference concerning that between the Local Churches and the church i go to back home is massive. Even more reason I love the church I go to back home more )

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

I happen to have read similar things from people in the Local Churches who have posted here. (I've read a good amount of stuff in this forum already)

Even so, they are not IN the local churches. Since they are the ones you say elevate Brother to equality with the Lord Jesus then I ask you what THEY said that gave you that impression.

Thx
Drake

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

Even so, they are not IN the local churches. Since they are the ones you say elevate Brother to equality with the Lord Jesus then I ask you what THEY said that gave you that impression.

Thx
Drake

Well, they say things like people must only use Brother Lee's teachings, that any other scripture is anathema to the building of the Lord's Recovery, things like that. (I would go further but this discussion has been plenty hashed out already). Granted I haven't really heard directly from people in the Local Churches but the bookstore showing basically everything containing Lee's teachings and no other Biblical sources of information including books by other Christian authors definitely rings a bell towards the importance of Brother Lee in the Local Churches.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

The problem isn't using mortal man's teachings to educate us in the Lord - far from it. Indeed, we need people to educate us about the Bible and guide us towards better understanding of the Bible. 1 Peter 5:1-4 says.........He understands that he's not even close to being God or Jesus Christ but rather that he should give himself up towards serving God.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying that you also read and apparently have preferences for certain mortal men’s writing about the Bible. When you went off on that “immortal being” vs. “mortal man” track it sounded like you lacked a basic understanding of God’s arrangement and provision to build the Body of Christ. Also, regarding your last point the Immortal Being used a mortal man to write half of the New Testament.

I still don’t know what someone said to give you that erroneous impression.

Drake

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Don't mention friendship, for starters. It is taboo. The word companions, loving each other is ok to say, but not friendship. Actually, some will use the word friendship to blend with ones they consider outside the ministry, but it's all smoke and mirrors, not actual friendship.

I totally agree with you. The friendship shown by the LC members is just outward and only for the sake of 'cherishing' them so that they are attracted by them to be brought to the fellowship. There is no teaching about helping the poor and the needy giving us a false impression that we only have to care about the members of the LC and nobody else in this world.

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok. Thanks for clarifying that you also read and apparently have preferences for certain mortal men’s writing about the Bible. When you went off on that “immortal being” vs. “mortal man” track it sounded like you lacked a basic understanding of God’s arrangement and provision to build the Body of Christ. Also, regarding your last point the Immortal Being used a mortal man to write half of the New Testament.

I still don’t know what someone said to give you that erroneous impression.

Drake

Yes....which was my frickin' point concerning Witness Lee lol. There's nothing wrong with Witness Lee being used to build God's Kingdom. The problem comes when you equate the two even tangentially.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHisMercy,

I’m always delighted to bring a moment of happiness to you. Seriously. We all need that however it comes about.

But, yes, this forum is a quintessential example of group think and the behaviors that issue from it. That is why asking for validation of your beliefs from others who hold the same beliefs is meaningless. Luminosity fell into the same error. It’s like CNN asking MSNBC if they agree with them..... of course they do but that does not validate the CNN point of view. I think the spirit of the age we see playing out on the national stage is also affecting social media, even Christian forums like this one.

Drake

I just don't agree, Drake. This forum is people who come together and speak honestly about what they have seen, experienced, and been taught by Lees' ministry, right or wrong. Honest discussion. I say, genuine christian fellowship happens here. It is in stark contrast to the culture of silence persisting in and pertaining to every aspect of 'fellowship' in the LC. I am sure that chasm between the truth and hiding the truth might make you uncomfortable....but your unease with such open communication does not invalidate it. 'Asking for validation of your beliefs from others who hold the same beliefs' is such a silly accusation of those here. You forget, most of us coming out of the LC are true believers. We face a whole world of naysayers each and every day.....ones who mock and belittle christians for their faith in Jesus. You think we need others to believe what we believe? That is so far from reality.....

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

Well, they say things like people must only use Brother Lee's teachings, that any other scripture is anathema to the building of the Lord's Recovery, things like that. (I would go further but this discussion has been plenty hashed out already). Granted I haven't really heard directly from people in the Local Churches but the bookstore showing basically everything containing Lee's teachings and no other Biblical sources of information including books by other Christian authors definitely rings a bell towards the importance of Brother Lee in the Local Churches.

So, your argument is based on circumstantial considerations, not something you can actually quote.

Most people that object to the ministry of Brother Lee do so for the reasons you cite.,, an overemphasis on the use of the messages, HWMR, exercise of authority in church governance, etc. I understand that POV though I see it much differently. However, no one I know in the local churches thinks Brother Lee was equal to the Lord Jesus or even Paul or other New Testament writers. His teachings are based on the revelation given to the authors of the New Testament and not net new revelation. He was not a a minister of original thought but recovered thought. And he never could violate the headship of our Lord Jesus.

As I mentioned to ByHisMercy, your sources are simply a repetion of each other. That is why I asked you for a specific statement from the ministry or anecdotally something you heard someone say, but up to this point you have not provided that but just your own opinion...and your are entitled to that but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Thx
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I just don't agree, Drake. This forum is people who come together and speak honestly about what they have seen, experienced, and been taught by Lees' ministry, right or wrong. Honest discussion. I say, genuine christian fellowship happens here. It is in stark contrast to the culture of silence persisting in and pertaining to every aspect of 'fellowship' in the LC. I am sure that chasm between the truth and hiding the truth might make you uncomfortable....but your unease with such open communication does not invalidate it. 'Asking for validation of your beliefs from others who hold the same beliefs' is such a silly accusation of those here. You forget, most of us coming out of the LC are true believers. We face a whole world of naysayers each and every day.....ones who mock and belittle christians for their faith in Jesus. You think we need others to believe what we believe? That is so far from reality.....

ByHisMercy,

I’m not at all uncomfortable with the dialogue here. Else I would have flown the pond a long time ago.

Yet, all that you say about this forum may be accurate but that does not mean it has not fallen into group think. Consider this... you are newer here than most,,, but the vast majority of the discussions by former members is mostly reinforcing the same beliefs stated over and over for a decade or more .... and any challenges to the status quo are often met with ridicule and public shaming.... that is group think behavior..... classic attack of perceived threats and parasites that are not conforming to the group. It’s a basic human tribal instinct and reaction. A great thinker on this topic once explained to me that with groups one must learn the tribal dance or get tossed into the pot as dinner. It’s true metaphorically in modern groups. You can see it play out with some forum members who express moderated thoughts occasionally.... they get challenged fairly aggressively to conform. I’m a known quantity so if I say the sky is blue I’ll be accused of calling it green or failing to understand how blue depresses people so how dare I be so insensitive. Those are behaviors of group think seeking conformity to keep the status quo. Newbies that come here complaining will be greeted with high fives. Less than that will be greeted with a warm smile followed by a “ whoa, hold on there fella “

It’s easier to recognize if you know it’s there. But the point here is seeking validation from the group that you are integrated with is a false validation and any argument based on that is also false.

Drake

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHisMercy,

I’m not at all uncomfortable with the dialogue here. Else I would have flown the pond a long time ago.

Yet, all that you say about this forum may be accurate but that does not mean it has not fallen into group think. Consider this... you are newer here than most,,, but the vast majority of the discussions by former members is mostly reinforcing the same beliefs stated over and over for a decade or more .... and any challenges to the status quo are often met with ridicule and public shaming.... that is group think behavior..... classic attack of perceived threats and parasites that are not conforming to the group. It’s a basic human tribal instinct and reaction. A great thinker on this topic once explained to me that with groups one must learn the tribal dance or get tossed into the pot as dinner. It’s true metaphorically in modern groups. You can see it play out with some forum members who express moderated thoughts occasionally.... they get challenged fairly aggressively to conform. I’m a known quantity so if I say the sky is blue I’ll be accused of calling it green or failing to understand how blue depresses people so how dare I be so insensitive. Those are behaviors of group think seeking conformity to keep the status quo. Newbies that come here complaining will be greeted with high fives. Less than that will be greeted with a warm smile followed by a “ whoa, hold on there fella “

It’s easier to recognize if you know it’s there. But the point here is seeking validation from the group that you are integrated with is a false validation and any argument based on that is also false.

Drake

Ok, thank you for the break down. Is groupthink the reason you cannot address multitudes of unrighteous lawsuits, sexual immorality of the son of Lee protected, the shady business dealings of Lee, the unrighteous divisions, shunnings, quarantines, ummm, what else, lemme think, how about the spirit of the age playing out in the LC? You cannot see it? Or you cannot defend it, therefore you cannot speak about it? I mean, you cannot even address all the honest issues and objections......you can't lean around the elephant in the room and pretend it is not there. You just start to look a little strange, pretending it doesn't exist.....I mean, LOOK AT THE ELEPHANT, DRAKE. Address all the unrighteousness. Defend it. Use scripture, if you can. We are all big bible people, here. Let' s have it. Thanks.

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, your argument is based on circumstantial considerations, not something you can actually quote.

Most people that object to the ministry of Brother Lee do so for the reasons you cite.,, an overemphasis on the use of the messages, HWMR, exercise of authority in church governance, etc. I understand that POV though I see it much differently. However, no one I know in the local churches thinks Brother Lee was equal to the Lord Jesus or even Paul or other New Testament writers. His teachings are based on the revelation given to the authors of the New Testament and not net new revelation. He was not a a minister of original thought but recovered thought. And he never could violate the headship of our Lord Jesus.

As I mentioned to ByHisMercy, your sources are simply a repetion of each other. That is why I asked you for a specific statement from the ministry or anecdotally something you heard someone say, but up to this point you have not provided that but just your own opinion...and your are entitled to that but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Thx
Drake

Um, actually the teachings of Witness Lee isn't biblical in the sense that a good amount of his teachings are unbiblical (things like modalism, man being God (I mean if man was God then why bother worshipping God then? We might as well then just worship people, which would be idolatry and a big no-no ofc to God) There have been plenty of discussion on whether Witness Lee's teachings is biblical or not both on the forums and in the greater Christian community which I do not wish to rehash right now.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ok, thank you for the break down. Is groupthink the reason you cannot address multitudes of unrighteous lawsuits, sexual immorality of the son of Lee protected, the shady business dealings of Lee, the unrighteous divisions, shunnings, quarantines, ummm, what else, lemme think, how about the spirit of the age playing out in the LC? You cannot see it? Or you cannot defend it, therefore you cannot speak about it? I mean, you cannot even address all the honest issues and objections......you can't lean around the elephant in the room and pretend it is not there. You just start to look a little strange, pretending it doesn't exist.....I mean, LOOK AT THE ELEPHANT, DRAKE. Address all the unrighteousness. Defend it. Use scripture, if you can. We are all big bible people, here. Let' s have it. Thanks.

No one that I knew in the LSM churches would have claimed Witness Lee was equal to Jesus. The practice of the LSM believers is to boldly follow Witness Lee and defend his ministry. His ministry isn’t really a “recovery” - he made that up. Allowing yourself to be force fed Witness Lee and the “group think” that defines the LSM church doesn’t elevate Witness Lee above Christ - in my opinion - it cheapens the experience of Christ to a lame and dying religion. It quenches the Holy Spirit’s ability to work in and through you to glorify God and be of part of building His kingdom. The Lee>Jesus that some folks see is a product of Lee’s dying religion - but not a belief that a member of his church would own.

[Nell]

Greetings from Nell!

This discussion has gone far beyond “Greetings from NYC” and the original post in the Testimonies section.

The value of posting by topic and/or subject is to be able to go back and research what has been written in the past. This is not brain surgery. The discussion could be valuable if it were properly categorized for research purposes. As it stands, 3-6 months from now, or next week, the discussion virtually never happened.

Come on folks, this is not hard...create a topic and stick to the subject. New topic, new thread. Give UntoHim a break. Give us all a break.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I noticed that. Also documented is every lawsuit filed against other parties composed of believers, in violation of scripture....the litigious LSM ignores Gods' word and goes after their brothers and sisters in Christ as a pitbull for the throat of its prey. How many such ungodly lawsuits are documented? More than 20 but less than 50?

It's like "wars and rumors of wars." With LSM we have lawsuits and threats of lawsuits. Many publishers and books have been threatened with a lawsuit, and then the lawsuit was never filed. The total number is dozens.

Don't let Drake change this into "we never worshipped Lee." They force their members to receive the words of Lee above the words of God, and they force their members to obey LSM before the Lord.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Okay... you’re a sola scriptura Christian... and any mortal mans teaching is wrong and not to be compared with “the Immortal Being’s creation of the Bible and the Gospel”.

Drake

Drake, you changed the discussion. Purposely. Again.

Christians do NOT reject "all man's teaching." We just never elevate them to the level of scripture, nor above. Neither do we discredit the book of James and most of the Psalms and Proverbs as "deficient, lacking Christ, and the vision of God's Economy," or other such nonsense such as "fallen, human sentiments."

Actually all of the "fallen, human sentiments" come from Lee and LSM.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ok, thank you for the break down. Is groupthink the reason you cannot address multitudes of unrighteous lawsuits, sexual immorality of the son of Lee protected, the shady business dealings of Lee, the unrighteous divisions, shunnings, quarantines, ummm, what else, lemme think, how about the spirit of the age playing out in the LC? You cannot see it? Or you cannot defend it, therefore you cannot speak about it? I mean, you cannot even address all the honest issues and objections......you can't lean around the elephant in the room and pretend it is not there. You just start to look a little strange, pretending it doesn't exist.....I mean, LOOK AT THE ELEPHANT, DRAKE. Address all the unrighteousness. Defend it. Use scripture, if you can. We are all big bible people, here. Let' s have it. Thanks.

Defend?

You are conflating things again...... for if you are saying that someone who commits sins and in so doing elevates themselves to equality with the Lord Jesus then we are all in deep trouble. ... you, me, Luminosity, everyone....

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

Um, actually the teachings of Witness Lee isn't biblical in the sense that a good amount of his teachings are unbiblical (things like modalism, man being God (I mean if man was God then why bother worshipping God then? We might as well then just worship people, which would be idolatry and a big no-no ofc to God) There have been plenty of discussion on whether Witness Lee's teachings is biblical or not both on the forums and in the greater Christian community which I do not wish to rehash right now.

I see. You would prefer to level unfounded and ridiculous charges of idol worship against Christians in the local churches than to cite a single reference to substantiate your accusation. Surely, such an important doctrine would have been stated somewhere.

Therefore, you can’t make a case because you know only what you read on the “interweb”

And yet, your narrative above indicates you never understood what the local churches teach and probably spent little time with them. It resembles the internet version of a drive by shooting.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

and any challenges to the status quo are often met with ridicule and public shaming....

Tell me about it. That's why Untohim started Alternative Views. That's where he tosses my posts that are out of the status quo, if he don't outright delete them.

Unless you are calling the status quo calling Lee's local churches a cult. Then, I'm your man ... the king of the status quo. But not everyone out here on this forum agrees with me. Are they the status quo you are speaking of?

Maybe you could tell us what the status quo out here is to you.

And don't accuse me of group-think. I left that long ago, when I left the local church. And I'm not guilty of group-think out here either.

No group-think here. I'm a cult of one.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ByHisMercy,

I’m not at all uncomfortable with the dialogue here. Else I would have flown the pond a long time ago.

Yet, all that you say about this forum may be accurate but that does not mean it has not fallen into group think. Consider this... you are newer here than most,,, but the vast majority of the discussions by former members is mostly reinforcing the same beliefs stated over and over for a decade or more ....

I agree with this as well. The irony is that many of those posts are condemning the group think they saw in the LRC. The vast majority of the meetings were reenforcing the "belief" that WL's ministry was the ministry of the Age. Now I saw that in Houston over a 3 year time span. I can not speak to every locality over the last 50 years.

Originally Posted by Drake

and any challenges to the status quo are often met with ridicule and public shaming....

Boy you can say that again. That was definitely my experience in the LRC.

Originally Posted by Drake

that is group think behavior..... classic attack of perceived threats and parasites that are not conforming to the group.

True, true. I saw numerous saints excommunicated and attacked being seen as perceived threats.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Greetings from Nell!

This discussion has gone far beyond “Greetings from NYC” and the original post in the Testimonies section.

The value of posting by topic and/or subject is to be able to go back and research what has been written in the past. This is not brain surgery. The discussion could be valuable if it were properly categorized for research purposes. As it stands, 3-6 months from now, or next week, the discussion virtually never happened.

Come on folks, this is not hard...create a topic and stick to the subject. New topic, new thread. Give UntoHim a break. Give us all a break.

Nell

Yes Nell. I agree. We should be discussing the first sentence in the OP.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's like "wars and rumors of wars." With LSM we have lawsuits and threats of lawsuits. Many publishers and books have been threatened with a lawsuit, and then the lawsuit was never filed. The total number is dozens.

Don't like Drake change this into "we never worshipped Lee." They force their members to receive the words of Lee above the words of God, and they force their members to obey LSM before the Lord.

I remember something about Lee being the fourth person of the trinity. Anyone else remember that? I know it's laughable, but any docs on it?

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

I see. You would prefer to level unfounded and ridiculous charges of idol worship against Christians in the local churches than to cite a single reference to substantiate your accusation. Surely, such an important doctrine would have been stated somewhere.

Therefore, you can’t make a case because you know only what you read on the “interweb”

And yet, your narrative above indicates you never understood what the local churches teach and probably spent little time with them. It resembles the internet version of a drive by shooting.

Drake

Fair enough so maybe idol worship is pushing it. But that being said, there are plenty of anecdotes about how Witness Lee is considered more holy than he really should be. I just would prefer not to rehash those discussions on this thread. Also I would recommend you just tell me outright that my accusation wasn't true instead of trying to be sneaky about me not truly understanding the Local Churches or me not having a solid argument. This is the place for introduction and further inquiry, not having philosophical or theological arguments as Nell implied. I don't mind being told the truth about the Local Church (in fact I welcome it since I obviously don't know as much as I should) but I don't appreciate such things being said in a snarky and downputting way, especially considering this whole forum is about learning more about Witness Lee and the Local Church.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

Also I would recommend you just tell me outright that my accusation wasn't true instead of trying to be sneaky about me not truly understanding the Local Churches or me not having a solid argument. ........ I don't mind being told the truth about the Local Church (in fact I welcome it since I obviously don't know as much as I should) but I don't appreciate such things being said in a snarky and downputting way, especially considering this whole forum is about learning more about Witness Lee and the Local Church.

I did tell you outright in my first post to the extent that I knew it was untrue...... and now we know why you misunderstood.

Our interaction in this short insightful exchange was smoking a peace pipe when compared to the shocking and outrageous accusation that sincere Jesus loving Christians in the local churches are committing idolatry as you stated in the OP.

Welcome to the forum. Glad you're here. I look forward to more discussion with you.


Drake

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

I did tell you outright in my first post to the extent that I knew it was untrue...... and now we know why you misunderstood.

Our interaction in this short insightful exchange was smoking a peace pipe when compared to the shocking and outrageous accusation that sincere Jesus loving Christians in the local churches are committing idolatry as you stated in the OP.

Welcome to the forum. Glad you're here. I look forward to more discussion with you.


Drake

In which case I apologize for doing so. I was mistaken in my accusation and should have been more clear in focusing more on the teaching aspect rather than the person himself. And thanks. Same here.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember something about Lee being the fourth person of the trinity. Anyone else remember that? I know it's laughable, but any docs on it?

Come on! You’re kidding right? You’re going to make Drake and lurker Evangelical’s head explode!

Must. Defend. Lee.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Come on! You’re kidding right? You’re going to make Drake and lurker Evangelical’s head explode!

Must. Defend. Lee.

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnn.... nah.

In case you haven't noticed our dear brother awareness is the resident provocateur... and he is an equal opportunity provocateur at that. Love him in any case.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

In which case I apologize for doing so. I was mistaken in my accusation and should have been more clear in focusing more on the teaching aspect rather than the person himself. And thanks. Same here.

Okay Luminosityfan,


Since this in an intro post... what is the significance of your handle?


thanks
Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Come on! You’re kidding right? You’re going to make Drake and lurker Evangelical’s head explode!

Must. Defend. Lee.

I didn't realize this had already been discussed here on LCD. I heard it long ago. But Evangelical engaged the discussion :

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...0&postcount=96

[Lumosityfan]

Originally Posted by Drake

Okay Luminosityfan,


Since this in an intro post... what is the significance of your handle?


thanks
Drake

So my handle comes from about 2008 or so when I was obsessed with the brain training website Lumosity. I kept on using up the free trials lol. (Eventually I was even going to use up 200 of my own dollars for the lifetime service; that's how much I liked it.) Thankfully that has passed in my own life but I started using the nickname Lumosityfan to show I was a fan of Lumosity and even though I don't use Lumosity anymore, the name just stuck with me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember something about Lee being the fourth person of the trinity. Anyone else remember that? I know it's laughable, but any docs on it?

Don Rutledge recorded that. He was there with others when an FTTT trainer announced that. The trainer was so proud that he could walk into Lee's apartment and have fellowship with the "fourth person of the trinity."


Imagine that!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Don Rutledge recorded that. He was there with others when an FTTT trainer announced that. The trainer was so proud that he could walk into Lee's apartment and have fellowship with the "fourth person of the trinity."


Imagine that!

The trainer was obviously expressing a common spirit that exists in the LC. At least it did when I was in.

Lee would have been nothing without all his admiring followers. We lifted him up into thinking he was God's specially used man on the earth. We did that. We did that by elevating Lee beyond just being a mortal flawed human being.

Ironically, perhaps, we created our own personality cult ... Lee didn't discourage it.

And that brings us back to the OP.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by awareness

I didn't realize this had already been discussed here on LCD. I heard it long ago. But Evangelical engaged the discussion :

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...0&postcount=96

Wow, yes Evangelical said -“I can understand that people say stupid things and it is possible someone said that Lee was the 4th person of the Trinity - I don't rule that out”

I guess that speaks to the culture in the LSM churches. I would have ruled that out (at least in the LSM church I visited). But there is a big difference in verbalizing this and acting as if Lee was some sort of superior force of nature divinely put on earth to recover truths and lead the charge for Christ’s return.

Witness Lee was not that person. Why waste time pretending and defending?

The hours wasted “pretending and defending” in the LSM churches is a sad and unfortunate reality.

Christ is real, He died for our sins despite who we are and what we’ve done.The Holy Spirit is real - He will work in your heart. Change you. Lead you. Run from a dead a failing religion. There is more. Come - seek after the reality of our Creator.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Must. Defend. Lee.

Must defend the Grand Minister of the Age!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lumosityfan

Initially I thought it wouldn't be that bad, just having weird rituals but overall biblically sound. However, perusing through this site and other Christian sites that discussed the matter, I realized the truth behind the Local Church movement that has cautioned me towards being involved with it in the future (things like not caring for the poor, lack of true evangelism, biblical controversies concerning their interpretation of the Bible, scandals concerning the leadership, the fact that you can't question leadership...

Related to the observations above, two striking features of the LC are: the widespread lack of personal transformation, and the stagnation in various "localities". The first is the cause - all the years of pray-reading HWMR, all the meetings, conferences, trainings and retreats and one's often little better than "the world", much less the neighbouring Baptists. The anxieties, confusions and resentments linger.

The second feature is the effect of untransformed lives, collectively writ large in their assemblies. LC members have become passive, afraid to say or do anything not explicitly pushed by Anaheim. So they sit there like dispirited lumps: repeating a line from a ministry-approved hymn, standing for the bread-breaking, listening to a ministry-oriented message, then going home.

They were told 18, 25, 42 years ago, "All you have to do is eat the Lord". It was grace-on-steroids: just sit in the right chair and listen to the right message, and nirvana would surely follow, as day follows night. Now all these years later, they're still sitting in that chair, waiting. But the fervour has, shall we say, died down a bit. Expectations have been tempered. Now they're just holding on, hoping they'll "make it"... but with so few signs at present, where is the hope for a glorious future? What happened to, " from glory to glory"?

Originally Posted by lostlampstand

As someone that aspired to go to FTT, I observed numerous trainees and graduates who have .. demonstrated little transformation of character

It's not only those in the FTT, but also the long-time "community saints" who've been fed a steady diet of judgmentalism of all else combined with pie-in-the-sky expectations for their LC experience. The goal was to be magically transformed, just by following the ministry; just saying, "amen" whenever the brother speaks, and the kingdom of heaven was thiers for the taking.

Then the years passed, and the magic feeling faded, and having been conditioned not to critically assess their situation, they sank down into ennui, and dull rote performance.

We are all fallen man and are not perfect. I have not come across a "perfect church" yet. We all need go deny ourself, take up the cross and follow only Jesus. I do not know the scripture as much as most of you, but i just pray that we can love one another.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

We are all fallen man and are not perfect. I have not come across a "perfect church" yet.

I don't know your current affiliation, or lack thereof, but in the LSM-affiliated assemblies they constantly point out the failures of "Christianity". A meeting doesn't go by without overt or subtle references to how bad things are with everyone else.

Then if anyone points out their flaws, some of which are quite glaring, they effectively shrug and say, "Hey, no one's perfect."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I don't know your current affiliation, or lack thereof, but in the LSM-affiliated assemblies they constantly point out the failures of "Christianity". A meeting doesn't go by without overt or subtle references to how bad things are with everyone else.

Then if anyone points out their flaws, some of which are quite glaring, they effectively shrug and say, "Hey, no one's perfect."

Oh, that’s not true.... at least the places I meet and have met.

Christianity deserves criticism even invites it by some of its unscriptural practices and teachings. However, the local churches are not constantly pointing out the failures of Christianity in every meeting. Besides there is no need to do that.. it’s enough to contrast the difference and then spend most time on the primary mission and purpose to build the Body of Christ that He May present His bride to Himself glorious.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh, that’s not true.... at least the places I meet and have met.

Christianity deserves criticism even invites it by some of its unscriptural practices and teachings. However, the local churches are not constantly pointing out the failures of Christianity in every meeting. Besides there is no need to do that.. it’s enough to contrast the difference and then spend most time on the primary mission and purpose to build the Body of Christ that He May present His bride to Himself glorious.

Drake

Drake,
You're a little behind schedule. We've already had a thread on this topic: "106 things not many Christians know (But Witness Lee knows)".

He built a career convincing people that he alone had the truth.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=4316

The following statements were culled from Life Study Messages:

Originally Posted by ThreadPost#1

~“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.
~A number of Bible teachers have pointed out that the altar typifies the cross and that the sacrifices typify Christ. However, not many teachers have gone on to find out how Christ is typified by other items in chapters twenty-one through twenty-three of Exodus.
~Above us there is the sphere ruled by Satan, the ruler of the authority of the air. Not many Christians have an adequate understanding of this evil power in the air.
~After they were baptized they could say, “Once we were on the other side of the river, but now we are on this side.” not many have had this understanding of baptism.
~All Christians are familiar with the name Christ, but not many understand the term the mystery of God.
~All Christians know that Christ has ascended into heaven and that He is in heaven today. However, not many are familiar with the scene in heaven after Christ's ascension.
~All Christians know that God has redeemed us, but not many realize that He has also qualified us to partake of Christ as the portion of the saints.
~All Christians realize that Christ was born through incarnation, but not many regard His resurrection also as a birth.
~All Christians think that a priest is one who serves God, but not many Christians know that, ultimately, a priest is one who ministers God to man.
~Although all genuine Christians recognize that Christ is the Son of God, not many have an adequate realization that He is the embodiment of God.
~Although every Christian knows that God is the mighty One on the throne, not many Christians realize that God today needs a temple, a church, a building, for His expression.
~Although many are familiar with Joel's prophecy regarding the Holy Spirit, not many have paid attention to the fact that receiving the outpoured Holy Spirit requires our calling on the name of the Lord.
~Although many Christians pay attention to gifts, not many concentrate on transformation
~Although many Christians realize that Christ is our High Priest, not many know what this truly means.
~Although many Christians talk about substitution, about Christ's having died in our place, not many realize the matter of union.
~Although many Christians understand the word of grace (Acts 14:3; 20:32), the word of life (Phil. 2:16), and even the good word of God (Heb. 6:5), not many know what the word of righteousness is.
~Although many Jews and Seventh-Day Adventists keep the Sabbath, not many know the true significance of keeping a day unto the Lord.
~Although the Lord often spoke as a Bridegroom conversing with His bride, not many Christians have realized this aspect of His word.
~Although there are millions of Christians in this country, not many have paid adequate attention to Christ in us, the hope of glory.
~Although there is much talk about the Body, not many have a proper understanding of the Body. Furthermore, Christians rarely even speak of the one new man.
~Among the millions of today's Christians, the genuinely redeemed and saved people, not many enjoy the experience of having become God's habitation.
~As far as the experience of the tabernacle is concerned, the writings and messages of the various Christian teachers mainly speak of the altar. But once we go on from the altar to the Holy Place, we find that not many have touched the real experiences there.
~As we have seen, the book of Hebrews makes a great turn at 7:1. Not many readers of Hebrews have seen this point clearly, but by God's mercy and grace He has shown us this turn.
~Because of shallow, inadequate teaching, not many Christians realize that the redemption of Christ rests upon the power of the eternal Spirit.
~Because this revelation is so high and because Paul's writing is complicated, not many Christians have a proper understanding of this book.
~Before we consider the matter of putting off the old man and putting on the new man, the church (4:22-24), we need to see that the abolishing of the ordinances for the creation of the new man is part of the gospel. Not many Christians realize that this matter must be proclaimed as part of the gospel.
~But have you ever asked the Lord to forgive you for not living by Christ? not many Christians have prayed in this way: “Lord, forgive me for not taking You as my life today.
~But what about the second beginning, the beginning related to the building of God's dwelling place? It is a fact that not many Christians realize the need to have this second beginning.
~By staying in the homes of many Christians in the course of my travels, I have learned that the appetite of many believers is still for the things of Egypt. Not many have a genuine hunger and thirst for Christ.
~During the past centuries, a great many Christians have sought for the overcoming of sin. However, not many of them ever succeeded in this matter because they were seeking something that is on the second floor while they were on the ground floor.
~Even at present there are thousands, even millions, of Christians, but not many are strong.
~Few Christians have ever fought for the revelation of God, and not many have fought for the revelation of Christ.
~Have you ever heard a message on Christ offering Himself to God by and through the eternal Spirit? Christians do not ordinarily speak this way, for not many have this knowledge. Because they do not have the knowledge, they do not use the language of Hebrews 9:14. Nevertheless, such a word is found in Hebrews 9:14.
~He mingled divinity and humanity, humanity and divinity, into one. This is our Lord Jesus Christ. Not many Christians have this concept of the Lord Jesus.
~However, not many believers realize that the flesh is so evil.
~However, not many Christian teachers realize that what is revealed in Romans in the way of a sketch is fully illustrated in 1 Corinthians.
~However, not many Christians have observed that in His conversation with Nicodemus the Lord pointed that gentleman to the serpent (John 3:14).
~However, not many Christians realize that they are kings by birth.
~However, not many Christians today take care of God's house. Most are primarily concerned about their own needs, and the pillar they set up is only a testimony of God's care.
~However, not many people, including Christians, know the significance of man's first fall.
~However, not many understand the crossing of the river Jordan as having a typological significance.
In 5:26 and 29 there are four crucial words: sanctify, cleanse, nourish, and cherish. Because the enemy has veiled these matters, not many Christians have a clear understanding of their significance.
~In Genesis 35 we see a crucial and radical turn. However, not many children of God appreciate this. They read this chapter again and again without recognizing the radical turn contained in it.
~In Luke 17, the Lord used Lot's wife as a warning example for His disciples. However, not many Christians today live under this warning.
~In most Christian groups there is very little ministry of Christ as life.
~In the eyes of God, the ordinances, rituals, and ceremonies of the law have been crucified on the cross. However, not many Christians realize this.
~In the same principle, if we would get out of the world, we must get into the wilderness. However, not many Christians have been brought into the wilderness.
~In their experience not many Christians have come to the mountain. any of us can testify that before we came into the church life, we were not at the mountain, the place of revelation.
~In their experience, not many Christians stay in the house after their conversion.
~In their reading of the book of Revelation not many Christians have paid their full attention to the revelation of Christ contained in it.
~Jacob is the prototype in the Bible. Romans 9 tells us this. But throughout the generations not many Christians have seen this, thinking that the chapters dealing with Jacob's history are merely interesting stories. Few Christians view these chapters as the record of the model of a transformed life.
~Many Christians have sung this hymn, but not many praise their Savior all the day long.
~Many Christians know that Christ resurrected, ascended, and has been crowned with honor and glory, but not many know that after Christ's ascension, enthronement, and glorification He also received gifts.
~Many Christians know that during the years of wandering in the wilderness, the children of Israel ate manna. But not many of them know in a thorough and adequate way the significance of the manna in Exodus 16.
~Many Christians know that on the cross Christ dealt with sin, the flesh, the self, the old man, the world, and the Devil. But not many also realize that on the cross Christ dealt with the ordinances.
~Many Christians only experience God as their individual God. Not many have the experience of God as the God of the house of God.
~Many Christians realize that Peter and John were disciples and apostles, but not many realize that they were also pillars.
~Most believers know that Christ is the heavenly manna; however, not many know how to eat Him.
~Most Christians have only the limited experience of Christ as their Redeemer. Not many have the experience of Christ as their life.
~Most Christians have the book of Revelation, but not many have the unsealed scroll, because they do not realize that Revelation is the unsealed scroll.
~Most Christians realize only that they need Christ as their substitute for redemption. Not many realize that in order to be a living sacrifice to satisfy God, they also need Christ as their substitute in sanctification.
~Nearly all Christians have seen the eternal life in John 3:16, but not many have seen the serpent in John 3:14.
~Not many Christian preachers have given messages concerning the inward aspect of Christ's sufferings on the cross.
~Not many Christians are able to take in God's Word in a proper way or utter it in a strong way.
~Not many Christians are willing to pay the price to follow the Lord strictly, because they do not want to suffer in their soul; they want to enjoy their life today, desiring luxurious cars, large houses, and many worldly things. They are unwilling to lose their soul.
~Not many Christians have realized the full significance of the budding rod.
~Not many Christians have seen that Christ is the place of propitiation.
~Not many Christians have seen that God's intention is to work Himself into us.
~Not many Christians have seen that the renewing of the new man depends on our seeking the things which are above.
~Not many Christians know the goal of God's calling
~Not many Christians know the two aspects of Christ's priesthood.
~Not many Christians know what the ministry of the stewardship is.
~Not many Christians realize that concerning both the giving of the law and the function of the law, there are two aspects, the “day” aspect and the “night” aspect.
~Not many Christians realize that even their natural goodness is rejected by God.
~Not many Christians regard the lack of prayer as sin.
~Not many Christians regard the Lord's coming as a warning.
~Not many Christians regard themselves as stewards.
~Not many Christians see God's intention in His salvation. To them, salvation consists only in being delivered from hell.
~Not many Christians throughout the centuries have been able to get fully into the book of Colossians.
~Not many Christians today pay attention to the growth in life.
~Not many know the real meaning of the word “blessing.” Many Christians simply have not seen the blessings with which the church has been blessed
~Not many ministers or workers in today's Christianity carry out the stewardship of God.
~Not many of today's Christians realize what genuine growth is.
~Not many readers of Exodus 1 and 2 have seen the underlying theme that links these chapters.
~Not many readers of Exodus have given adequate attention to chapter sixteen.
~Not many readers of this book have seen that the reconstitution of God's people is implied in chapter sixteen.
~Of the many genuine believers in Christ who have drunk of the living water, not many experience the flowing of this water.
~On the one hand, the church is constituted of God; on the other hand, the church is expressed in a particular locality. Not many Christian teachers have seen these two aspects of the church.
~Our believing in Christ is related to both life and authority. Not many Christians, however, realize that they must believe in the Lord for authority as well as for life.
~Out of the tens of millions of Christians in the United States, not many will be overcomers.
~So, the number eight signifies resurrection. In this new living, the people were in resurrection. Whatever they did was in resurrection. Not many Christians realize the true significance of the type in this portion of the Word.
~Some Christians may cause people to rest and even be refreshed; however, not many can supply others with spiritual food.
~That He sends the Spirit, who is just Himself, that He might abide in us and that we might abide in Him; and that Christ is living, moving, and working in our spirit, even transforming our very being that we might be His expression. Although this matter is found again and again in the New Testament, not many Christians pay attention to it.
~The curse came in through Adam's fall (Gen. 3:17) and was dealt with by Christ's redemption (Gal. 3:13). Since in the new heaven and new earth there will be no more fall, there will no longer be any curse. Not many Christians understand all that the curse includes.
~The Lord Jesus is the real manna. In John 6 He indicates that we should seek Him and eat Him. However, not many Christians realize the need for a change of diet.
~The sealing of the Spirit must saturate our mind. Not many Christians have seen that the sealing is still going on, that it is not once for all.
~The Spirit is speaking to the churches, not to any religion, denomination, or group of seeking Christians. This is the reason that not many Christians can hear the speaking of the Spirit.
~The term “fullness” has been misused, misunderstood, and misapplied by today’s Christians. Thus, when Christians speak of the fullness of Christ, they think it means the riches of Christ. However, although many Christians speak of the fullness of the Holy Spirit or the fullness of God, not many speak of the fullness of Christ.
~The words redemption and redeemed are commonly used by Christians. However, not many believers realize adequately that in the sight of God redemption includes three matters. First, it includes (blah……)
~Their names will be in the book of life at that time, but the names of many others will not be there. Because not many Christians have seen this vision, they cannot understand the verses concerning this matter.
~These two matters, blessing and dwelling, are found in the New Testament Epistles. Probably not many Christians have paid attention to these matters in the Epistles.
~Today many Christians know only to pray this kind of shallow prayer. They know only to pray on the basis of the blood of Christ shed on the cross. Not many believers know how to pray the kind of prayer that is offered at the incense altar.
~Today, not many Christians care for the inward experience. Most Christians care for the outward experiences. The things that are taught among Christians today mostly go as far as the end of Genesis 14.
~We have been selected and called for God's purpose (Rom. 9:11). Not many Christians know what this purpose is.
~We have seen that many crucial seeds of the truth are sown in the book of Genesis. The house of God, Bethel, is one of these seeds. However, not many Christians know what the experience of the house of God is.
~We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.

I can also testify: According to my experience, not many LC meetings can conclude without someone taking a gratuitous swipe at "poor Christianity".

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Drake,
You're a little behind schedule. We've already had a thread on this topic: "106 things not many Christians know (But Witness Lee knows)".

He built a career convincing people that he alone had the truth.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=4316

The following statements were culled from Life Study Messages:



I can also testify: According to my experience, not many LC meetings can conclude without someone taking a gratuitous swipe at "poor Christianity".

Aron,

Not sure why you would disagree with most of those, they’re obvious requiring little explanation as to their veracity. Furthermore, they resemble observations not criticisms.

Nevertheless, those statements do not validate your claim that EVERY local church meeting is characterized by criticism of Christianity. You could not possibly know that unless you are omnipresent therefore at best your observations are anecdotal.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh, that’s not true.... at least the places I meet and have met.

Christianity deserves criticism even invites it by some of its unscriptural practices and teachings. However, the local churches are not constantly pointing out the failures of Christianity in every meeting. Besides there is no need to do that.. it’s enough to contrast the difference and then spend most time on the primary mission and purpose to build the Body of Christ that He May present His bride to Himself glorious.

Drake

Just once, before I pass into the next life, I would like to see dear brother Drake be a little honest about LC attitudes towards Christianity.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron,

Not sure why you would disagree with most of those,

Did I say that I disagreed? Rather, the quotes showed that unrelenting criticism of Christianity is endemic to the typical message of LSM meetings. Yet if anyone else makes "observations", as you now call them, of the LSM's many deficiencies, both in teaching and practice, one either gets a "hey, nobody's perfect" reply, or a complaint that they're being "attacked" and "slandered". Suddenly "God sees no iniquity in Israel"? Why the double standard? Why the self-righteous hypocrisy?

No, they don't point out the criticisms of Christianity in every LSM-affiliated meeting. But to my observation it's most of them; say, over 75%.

For example, there were the 7 Life Studies scanned, with 108 "not many Christians" observations by Lee. You'd say, well that's far less than 75%, if you count every message. But that's only using that precise language. There are many differently-worded jabs that imply the deficiencies of every one else but Witness Lee. Some are subtle, some not - there are glaring comments that get "polished" away. So I would say 75% isn't an excessive estimation. It might be more like 85%.

And how did Witness Lee know what "not many Christians" think or don't think? He hadn't met with non-LC Christians for decades, remember? They weren't on the "proper ground." So, on what was he basing his observations and assessments?

Just go into an LSM-affiliated meeting sometime, and listen to the self-congratulatory wording, how what we're doing is "adequate" and "proper" and "genuine", with the implied corollary that all others are not; other meetings and ministries are false, weak, and hopelessly deficient. It's endemic to the message. If you take that away, there's no message.