Discernment of spirits

Evangelical · 10-09-2018, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. Paul talks about "Counterfeit apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ, the pseudo apostles." A counterfeit bill is going to look almost like the real thing. How to discern?

Can you explain why Paul and John did not refer to these verses in 1 John and 1 Corinthians? They could have easily referred to the words of Jesus as you have, but they didn't. They presented a completely different way to discern spirits.

ZNPaaneah · 10-09-2018, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Can you explain why Paul and John did not refer to these verses in 1 John and 1 Corinthians? They could have easily referred to the words of Jesus as you have, but they didn't. They presented a completely different way to discern spirits.

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God;

This is what we are doing on this forum. We are proving, testing, examining, considering "whether they are of God".

because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I feel this is one of the most important lessons we learned in the LRC. This is a direct referral to what Paul said to the Corinthians, and what Jesus said in the gospels.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

This is John, the same one who said that the word became flesh and tabernacled among us. Saying that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is equivalent to saying that the word of God has been lived out and witnessed by us. I understand this term "confesseth" differently than to just "say". So they "say Lord, Lord" that is not a confession. A confession is where you tell your secret, you tell the truth. Someone masquerading can put on a mask and pretend. Lies are merely from the lips, but a confession is from the heart.

3 and every spirit that [a]confesseth not Jesus is not of God:

This is my biggest issue with the doctrine of MOTA, I feel it is a denial of Jesus. The OT prophesied that Jesus would be "the Minister of the Age". To claim that for yourself or for Watchman Nee is to deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Likewise I feel at its heart the doctrine of the ground of the church denies the Lord's redemption.

and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

JJ · 10-12-2018, 08:34 PM

Re testing spirits:

Evangelical postulated:
“The genuine anointing can be discerned by applying the test of spirits:

1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15

It is noteworthy that no where does Paul or John direct the believers to consult Scripture for discernment - discernment of spirits requires a spiritual, not theological, solution.

These are the tests that John and Paul gave to the early Christians to be able to discern the spirits and the genuine anointing - and remember at this time Christianity as we know it today did not exist, and paganism/false Christs were more rife then that it is in our "secular Christian culture" today.

Anyone who wants to use other or non-biblical methods to discern because they think they know better are almost sure to reach the wrong conclusions. The categorical "10 ways to tell...." methods that you can find on the internet for trying to discern a good marriage partner, a good job, or even whether a pastor or church is genuine, are also non-biblical approaches and do not work for spirits because they are not spiritual.”

Here are links to the cited verses in context:
https://biblehub.com/blb/1_john/4.htm
https://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/12.htm

Indeed these are good verses to apply to “testing the spirits”. The lordship of Jesus Christ and whether we confess him as Lord or curse Him is key.

ZNPaaneah (ZNP) responded by citing Hebrews 4:12. Here it is in context: https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/4.htm. Evangelical responded “That is not offered as a test of spirits for other people, but for self-discernment (see the context of verse 11).

A simple practical example would suffice to show the inadequacy of God's Word for discerning the spirits.

It is impractical to test someone's spirit using God's Word.”

But the context of Hebrews 4 is Paul’s exhortation to be diligent to enter into God’s rest and not fall into disobedience to the good news that has been announced to us through God’s speaking in the Son. And, verse 13 applies “to all creatures” not just oneself. So, I don’t think it can be dismissed so easily as a test of others spirit.

ZNP also cited Proverbs. I found pertinent verses in Proverbs 2 https://biblehub.com/bsb/proverbs/2.htm and 4. https://biblehub.com/bsb/proverbs/4.htm. After reading these I wouldn’t be so quick to drop God’s word when testing a person’s speaking.

Unto Him and ZNP provided good biblical support that some could pass the outward test of saying the words “Lord Jesus” but not living in obedience to His lordship go on to deceive us.

After considering the posts on this thread I just don’t agree with Evangelicals opening post.

Evangelical · 10-13-2018, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God;

This is what we are doing on this forum. We are proving, testing, examining, considering "whether they are of God".

Disagree. There is no testing of spirits on this forum unless one applies 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15, which are the verses which show us how to test the spirits. In some versions it states plainly - "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God".

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

3 and every spirit that [a]confesseth not Jesus is not of God:

This is my biggest issue with the doctrine of MOTA, I feel it is a denial of Jesus. The OT prophesied that Jesus would be "the Minister of the Age". To claim that for yourself or for Watchman Nee is to deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Likewise I feel at its heart the doctrine of the ground of the church denies the Lord's redemption.

and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

I am sure that John had the gnostic gospel in mind of Jesus being a spirit and not a human being, and not as you suggest.

Indeed the context of Hebrews 4 and in particular 4:11 "let us, therefore" is key to understanding its application to ones own self, for self-reflection, as to whether we have ourselves entered God's rest. And the following verse, verse 12, on the application of God's Word to ones own self, where it "divides the soul and spirit", where the Word of God renews our mind and becomes like a mirror (James 1:23-24).

Here lies the practical difficulty of applying Hebrews 4:12 God's Word to divide someone else soul and spirit, in order to discern their spirit - it simply cannot be done and I have never seen it applied successfully in practice.

However in 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 the focus is decidedly on others, in some versions it states plainly - "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God". There is no such plain statement in Hebrews 4:12, that we can apply it to test the spirits of others. Neither does 1 John 4 or 1 Cor 12 mention anything of the sort mentioned in Hebrews 4:12.

Furthermore, if Hebrews 4:12 was a suitable test, or worthy of even the slightest consideration, Paul or John most likely would have said so. Paul or John could have, in 1 John 4 and 1 Cor 12, easily mentioned something like Hebrews 4:12 when discussing the discerning of spirits.

The problem with observing the outward things, by way of action or fruit, is that we would not be able to discern the difference between a Christian, a devout Jew, or a devout Muslim or an exceptional humanist.

Although some have raised the point that what a person says may not be from the heart, it also may be the case that a person's actions are merely an act. The Bible, in 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 , has already told us what discernment approach is most effective.

Truthseeker · 10-13-2018, 09:55 AM

I have a question here. Is the gut feeling considered as a sign of inner life or Spirit in us? I very often see that Lee promotes inner feelings which are corresponding to God's feeling inside us. Do you think that gut feeling is a sign from God?

Nell · 10-13-2018, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I have a question here. Is the gut feeling considered as a sign of inner life or Spirit in us? I very often see that Lee promotes inner feelings which are corresponding to God's feeling inside us. Do you think that gut feeling is a sign from God?

1 John 2:20 (NIV)
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

I don't know what term to use, but "gut feeling" isn't wrong. Another expression is "you know what you know". It's the reason UntoHim asked Evangelical "So God's Word is inadequate for discerning the spirits? Do you realize how foolish this sounds?"

We have the anointing from the Holy One, and we know the truth. It's hard to explain, but sometimes you just smell a rat.

Nell

Evangelical · 10-14-2018, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I have a question here. Is the gut feeling considered as a sign of inner life or Spirit in us? I very often see that Lee promotes inner feelings which are corresponding to God's feeling inside us. Do you think that gut feeling is a sign from God?

No, the only tests we should apply are 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

1 John 2:20 is not about gut feeling. The true and genuine anointing will always affirm the tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

This is even alluded to in 1 John 2:22 :

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Do not use feelings to discern the Spirit - that is the error of the Pentecostals, who use music which stimulates emotions. That is how the Kundalini spirit can exist.They do not feel that the Spirit is present unless they have some sort of feeling. Likewise, we should not use the mind/thoughts to discern the Spirit e.g. "today I had a pleasant thought of Christ and that means I have the Spirit of God", or "today I had a negative evil thought and that means I don't have the Spirit". Spiritual things can only be discerned by spiritual means. The tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 are spiritual tests, and do not rely upon thought or feeling - these tests can not only discern the Spirit but they can help avoid all kinds of error.

Ohio · 10-14-2018, 02:38 AM

Whatever tests you have used on the corruption at LSM obviously are not working for you.

"Test all things, hold on to the good." -- I Thess 5

Nell · 10-14-2018, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, the only tests we should apply are 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

1 John 2:20 is not about gut feeling. The true and genuine anointing will always affirm the tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

This is even alluded to in 1 John 2:22 :

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Do not use feelings to discern the Spirit - that is the error of the Pentecostals, who use music which stimulates emotions. That is how the Kundalini spirit can exist.They do not feel that the Spirit is present unless they have some sort of feeling. Likewise, we should not use the mind/thoughts to discern the Spirit e.g. "today I had a pleasant thought of Christ and that means I have the Spirit of God", or "today I had a negative evil thought and that means I don't have the Spirit". Spiritual things can only be discerned by spiritual means. The tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 are spiritual tests, and do not rely upon thought or feeling - these tests can not only discern the Spirit but they can help avoid all kinds of error.

Witness Lee built his empire by playing on the feelings of others.

Above all, remember that what you read on this forum is the opinion or interpretation of others. Don't rely on someone who speaks as though he knows everything when in fact, it's only his opinion. He has no authoritative interpretation of the bible, just like WLee didn't.

Trapped · 10-14-2018, 08:53 AM

I also cannot agree that Evangelical's OP presents the complete way to discern spirits. All three verse passages cited refer to discernment by what is spoken (confessing the name); however, as several others have said, there are other verses that state there will be some who say "Lord, Lord" and yet the Lord never knew them. I think we also all know there are many out there using the Lord's name and saying the phrases cited in the Bible as a test for discerning spirits, and yet they are false prophets.

I would say rather that the OP presents a test that is a first-line of defense. Obviously if someone cannot even say "Jesus is Lord" then that alone is ample evidence that can be used for discernment. But if they can say "Jesus is Lord", it seems there is further testing needed for full and proper discernment.

But what is that further testing?

-----

To change brief direction about "feeling". I have heard for decades about not "going with our feelings". However, I would say one of the most oft-repeated phrases among brothers in the lead is "How you do feel about such-and-such matter?" "Before I can do anything I need to get the brothers' feeling."

Bizarre for the "regular" saints to be told to avoid their feeling but the ones making the decisions are asked about their feeling constantly.

10-12-2018, 08:34 PM	#3
JJ Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 1,006	Re: Discernment of spirits Re testing spirits: Evangelical postulated: “The genuine anointing can be discerned by applying the test of spirits: 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 It is noteworthy that no where does Paul or John direct the believers to consult Scripture for discernment - discernment of spirits requires a spiritual, not theological, solution. These are the tests that John and Paul gave to the early Christians to be able to discern the spirits and the genuine anointing - and remember at this time Christianity as we know it today did not exist, and paganism/false Christs were more rife then that it is in our "secular Christian culture" today. Anyone who wants to use other or non-biblical methods to discern because they think they know better are almost sure to reach the wrong conclusions. The categorical "10 ways to tell...." methods that you can find on the internet for trying to discern a good marriage partner, a good job, or even whether a pastor or church is genuine, are also non-biblical approaches and do not work for spirits because they are not spiritual.” Here are links to the cited verses in context: https://biblehub.com/blb/1_john/4.htm https://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/12.htm Indeed these are good verses to apply to “testing the spirits”. The lordship of Jesus Christ and whether we confess him as Lord or curse Him is key. ZNPaaneah (ZNP) responded by citing Hebrews 4:12. Here it is in context: https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/4.htm. Evangelical responded “That is not offered as a test of spirits for other people, but for self-discernment (see the context of verse 11). A simple practical example would suffice to show the inadequacy of God's Word for discerning the spirits. It is impractical to test someone's spirit using God's Word.” But the context of Hebrews 4 is Paul’s exhortation to be diligent to enter into God’s rest and not fall into disobedience to the good news that has been announced to us through God’s speaking in the Son. And, verse 13 applies “to all creatures” not just oneself. So, I don’t think it can be dismissed so easily as a test of others spirit. ZNP also cited Proverbs. I found pertinent verses in Proverbs 2 https://biblehub.com/bsb/proverbs/2.htm and 4. https://biblehub.com/bsb/proverbs/4.htm. After reading these I wouldn’t be so quick to drop God’s word when testing a person’s speaking. Unto Him and ZNP provided good biblical support that some could pass the outward test of saying the words “Lord Jesus” but not living in obedience to His lordship go on to deceive us. After considering the posts on this thread I just don’t agree with Evangelicals opening post. __________________ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB)

10-13-2018, 09:55 AM	#5
Truthseeker Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 98	Re: Discernment of spirits I have a question here. Is the gut feeling considered as a sign of inner life or Spirit in us? I very often see that Lee promotes inner feelings which are corresponding to God's feeling inside us. Do you think that gut feeling is a sign from God?

10-14-2018, 02:38 AM	#8
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,693	Re: Discernment of spirits Whatever tests you have used on the corruption at LSM obviously are not working for you. "Test all things, hold on to the good." -- I Thess 5 __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

10-14-2018, 08:53 AM	#10
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Discernment of spirits I also cannot agree that Evangelical's OP presents the complete way to discern spirits. All three verse passages cited refer to discernment by what is spoken (confessing the name); however, as several others have said, there are other verses that state there will be some who say "Lord, Lord" and yet the Lord never knew them. I think we also all know there are many out there using the Lord's name and saying the phrases cited in the Bible as a test for discerning spirits, and yet they are false prophets. I would say rather that the OP presents a test that is a first-line of defense. Obviously if someone cannot even say "Jesus is Lord" then that alone is ample evidence that can be used for discernment. But if they can say "Jesus is Lord", it seems there is further testing needed for full and proper discernment. But what is that further testing? ----- To change brief direction about "feeling". I have heard for decades about not "going with our feelings". However, I would say one of the most oft-repeated phrases among brothers in the lead is "How you do feel about such-and-such matter?" "Before I can do anything I need to get the brothers' feeling." Bizarre for the "regular" saints to be told to avoid their feeling but the ones making the decisions are asked about their feeling constantly.