mann-man's Blog

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.

Great post Ohio,
Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to simply let the congregation know what the needs were rather than to push the seed offering? It is biblical to make our needs known for God will meet the need through His people that is if there is no flesh involved.

Peace, and have a good and Godly day!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Great post Ohio,
Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to simply let the congregation know what the needs were rather than to push the seed offering? It is biblical to make our needs known for God will meet the need through His people that is if there is no flesh involved.

Peace, and have a good and Godly day!

Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to cut his budget?

All that talk about "seed money" made me think about Paul's word in the same epistle, "we are not like the many, peddling the word of God."

The Bible does say, "let your requests be made known to God." I do believe, for the most part, that churches must learn to operate within a budget that their offerings provide.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Bible does say, "let your requests be made known to God." I do believe, for the most part, that churches must learn to operate within a budget that their offerings provide.

I believe the Mega-churches would beg to disagree with you. John Hagee, making more than 1.2 million a year, and his family members making plenty too, would also disagree with you.

I guess Jesus was wrong. You can serve both God and mammon.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

I believe the Mega-churches would beg to disagree with you. John Hagee, making more than 1.2 million a year, and his family members making plenty too, would also disagree with you.

I guess Jesus was wrong. You can serve both God and mammon.

Ohio, Yes we should make known our needs to God. Definitely. Yet it is practical for a shepherd to share what The Lord has put in his heart and leave it to the leading of the Spirit to convict and lead His sheep.

Awareness, No doubt, as Ohio pointed out earlier, some ministries do go overboard. Yet you can't deny Pastor Hagee and how he is benefitting his fold The Lord has put him over.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Ohio, Yes we should make known our needs to God. Definitely. Yet it is practical for a shepherd to share what The Lord has put in his heart and leave it to the leading of the Spirit to convict and lead His sheep.

Awareness, No doubt, as Ohio pointed out earlier, some ministries do go overboard. Yet you can't deny Pastor Hagee and how he is benefitting his fold The Lord has put him over.

I do know Hagee does give a LOT. While I've never met him, I've met his wife & she's down to earth. He has built schools & hospitals and transported Jews out of Russia and Ethiopia to relocate in Israel. He built a school / hom where these Jews that came back to Israel go there and learn Hebrew & Jewish customs. They are taught a trade so they can go to work once they leave the community. John pays for this..maybe out of the tithes/offerings. John doesn't make a big deal out of the tithes/offerings. Right before he starts preaching he'll say something like, let's now bring our tithes/offerings to the Lord. He prays over them and then while the plate is being passed around, there is singing. Other places will give you a 20-30 minute sermon and still others will collect 3-4 times during the SERVICE !

Many ministries also build hospitals and orphanages in other countries.

I often wonder why they don't build them here in the U.S.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I believe the Mega-churches would beg to disagree with you. John Hagee, making more than 1.2 million a year, and his family members making plenty too, would also disagree with you.

I guess Jesus was wrong. You can serve both God and mammon.

I like Joyce Meyers, and I know she has helped many sisters, but I read an article by the St. Louis newspaper reporter about their extravagant lifestyle and growing fortune, with an annual revenue (several years ago) of ~$100M.

Is this why Paul wrote, "I know how to abound?"

My wife and I have a little disagreement about whether ministers need their own private jets.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I like Joyce Meyers, and I know she has helped many sisters, but I read an article by the St. Louis newspaper reporter about their extravagant lifestyle and growing fortune, with an annual revenue (several years ago) of ~$100M.

Is this why Paul wrote, "I know how to abound?"

My wife and I have a little disagreement about whether ministers need their own private jets.

I like Joyce too. I don't watch her as much as I used to. She is very, very wealthy but also is a giver. I 'ushered' at one of her conferences she had here in SA a couple of years ago. She gave every volunteer a $50.00 voucher (to purchase her products of course but others don't do what she does for the volunteers.

She's not big into tithes/offerings. She passes the plate around but doesn't make a big deal of tithing. I have heard her mention Watchman Nee a couple of times but was I ever surprised when I saw Lee's pic on the screen along with many spiritual 'giants' from years ago. Now don't go bashing her because she put up Lee's pic. She may have picked up a book of his here & there and to my knowledge she's never mentioned him.

When Perry Stone was in town, he pulverized the leaders of the church who were fleecing the sheep.

When Benny Hinn was in town, he pulverized Joel Osteen without mentioning his name. But we all knew who he was talking about. He said to 'Osteen': GET OUT OF THE MINISTRY if you can't say JESUS is the only way to heaven, (making reference to when Osteen was on Larry King). If you can't talk about Repentance and the Blood of Jesus, you have NO BUSINESS to be in the ministry.

I know a lot of people don't like Benny but when he's TEACHING..and I mean TEACHING, he's an awesome teacher ! Really. And yes, there are things I don't like about him..BELIEVE YOU ME ! I got to meet him on stage and I saw him lose his temper with his staff because the mic wasn't working.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

When Benny Hinn was in town, he pulverized Joel Osteen without mentioning his name. But we all knew who he was talking about. He said to 'Osteen': GET OUT OF THE MINISTRY if you can't say JESUS is the only way to heaven, (making reference to when Osteen was on Larry King). If you can't talk about Repentance and the Blood of Jesus, you have NO BUSINESS to be in the ministry.

I know a lot of people don't like Benny but when he's TEACHING..and I mean TEACHING, he's an awesome teacher ! Really. And yes, there are things I don't like about him..BELIEVE YOU ME ! I got to meet him on stage and I saw him lose his temper with his staff because the mic wasn't working.

This says a whole lot to me -- Benny humiliating Osteen publicly -- in the "name of Jesus," -- after an interview with 9x married Larry the King. Then he goes over and "blows" on folks who need some "healing," and they all fall into the arms of others. Yet ... he is an "awesome" teacher with a terrible temper and no patience for "incompetent" employees. What did that little "display" teach you and the others who see it regularly?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no huge fan of Osteen either. The only minister I liked on TV was Ron Hembree. Too bad he just passed away.

So many things are wrong here with Benny. Why can't he address Osteen privately about his "concerns." And ... where's that verse about "blowing" people down. WL was also an "awesome" teacher, who could also release his "temper" all over others. Does that give them a free pass on how we treat people?

Apostle Paul said he never used his authority for tearing down, only for building up. One of the most confusing things in the Christian life for me is seeing talented and gifted orators, who supposedly are the most fruitful and blessing to the body of Christ, all the while amassing fortunes and glory to themselves, can be so abusive to "the least of My brothers."

I'm not judging these ones. I'm just a little confused.

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=Ohio;8059]

This says a whole lot to me -- Benny humiliating Osteen publicly -- in the "name of Jesus," -- after an interview with 9x married Larry the King. Then he goes over and "blows" on folks who need some "healing," and they all fall into the arms of others.

Remember, Benny didn't call out Osteen by name. Why doesn't he speak to him privately ? ......because they're not in the same 'camp' is my guess. And who knows, maybe he or others have ? I know Osteen got unindated with letters reprimending him for not (paraphrasing here saying JESUS is the WAY, the TRUTH and THE LIFE and no man can come to the Father but through Him. Osteen eventually issued an apology to the Christian audience but has never taken it back when going on Larry King after that time. Osteen has been on King a few times to my knowledge.

As for Hinn blowing on people...I am absolutely sure he has a scripture for doing that. (I'm not saying he is truly being led to do it but he has a scripture for it. When I find it I'll share it.)

For years & years I never cared for Hinn. A few years ago, I heard him TEACH using scriptures on God the Holy Spirit. Up to that time, I didn't 'know' the Holy Spirit only that He was the third Member of the God-Head. That He was the 'Life Giving Spirit'. That He was living inside of me as is Jesus and the Father. In that message, Hinn explained how He is the Voice of God. I then remembered when I was praying to GOD a few months before I got saved for 'help'. I will never forget the Voice telling me to call on JESUS. Call on JESUS, the Voice kept telling me. I thought it was my 'mind' telling me that. Aww...it was the HOLY SPIRIT who is the VOICE of GOD telling me to call on JESUS I now knew !

Consider Deuteronomy 4:29-31
But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

30"When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His Voice.

31"For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.


Maybe I was brain dead during my time in the LC but I don't recall Lee ever teaching on God the Holy Spirit except when he referred to the Spirit as the Life Giving Spirit. He never even addressed the third Person of the GodHead AS the Holy Spirit, did he? (I know he does in the footnotes of the Rcv) But I was not in the LC as long as you so perhaps I am wrong.

Without getting into a long winded discussion about these pastors/teachers/preachers, I will be attentive to whoever helps me dig deep into the Word of God.

While the Lee and the LC had lots of things 'wrong', we have to admit, Lee helped us and taught us how to call on the Name of the Lord. That we got into a repititious, vain, heartLESS habit is our own fault. That said, his ministry did teach me to pray directly to the Lord Jesus Christ. You know darn well, most Christians pray to 'the Father' in the Name of Jesus. We didn't. But Jesus does say in John 14:6 "No man can come to the Father but through HIM." Now when Jesus was teaching before His Crucifixion, He couldn't very well tell His disciples to Pray to HIM. He was preparing them for when the time came that the Holy Spirit would breath LIFE into them and empower them to speak with Boldness and Authority. The Holy Spirit is the One Who reveals the WORD of GOD to us. He reveals JESUS to us. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot KNOW, that is have a relationship with Jesus, the WORD of GOD Who became flesh. He is the One Who brings the scriptures ALIVE to our souls, to our heart, our spirit.

I don't know. Maybe Lee taught this and I never 'got it'. I only remember Lee emphasizing our spirit. 'Turn to your spirit.' Well if my spirit is not FILLED with the Holy Spirit of GOD, what good is it for me to 'turn to my spirit?' Because that is where Jesus is ? True but ONLY if you are filled with God the Holy Spirit !

Lee did have it right, imho, we've got to pray/contact GOD with our spirit. When we do, our SOUL blesses the LORD, rejoices in the LORD. You do get this, right Ohio ? That Lee screwed with our heads, well.....what a shame. But I know for a fact there is something deeper than our mind, our emotions and our will because we are born of GOD and God is SPIRIT and thus we are S/spirit.

Even voice teachers will tell their students to sing from their diaghram, the deep part of their being, not from their throat.

It took me many years to 'get it'. I had to strip the old LC wineskin of talking a certain way to make myself 'believe' I was talking with 'my spirit'.

I will continue with my thoughts down below.

Yet ... he is an "awesome" teacher with a terrible temper and no patience for "incompetent" employees. What did that little "display" teach you and the others who see it regularly?

That he is HUMAN...and for me NEVER, EVER to put any man or woman up on a pedestal ! My going up on stage was not my doing either. Some pastor came and grabbed me because he 'saw' the power of God all over me. He could feel the Presence of God very strongly on me. Believe me, I was thrown for a loop when I was pulled out of my seat when I was in the middle of private Praise and Worship. IMHO, since I pray & speak the Word of God everyday and study His Word and Teach His Word and am soo in Love with Jesus, for He is the Lover of my SOUL, surely the Presence of God has to be on me, no ? or Yes ?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no huge fan of Osteen either. The only minister I liked on TV was Ron Hembree. Too bad he just passed away.

I have never heard of him ! I'll have to google him.

And ... where's that verse about "blowing" people down.

I don't know but I am sure there is one ! And when I find it, I'll share it with you...maybe PM it to you. The reason I say this is because Benny also takes his jacket off sometimes and swings it about. He recently gave the scripture for it and explained how God told him to take off his jacket. He didn't want to do it at first but he obeyed.

NOW...settle...settle. He could be taking the scriptures out of context. I do not know. What I know is he does have scriptures for everything he does. Right or wrong. Most of the time I think he is correct but when he is wrong, he is dead wrong.

WL was also an "awesome" teacher, who could also release his "temper" all over others. Does that give them a free pass on how we treat people?

EXACTLY my point ! I don't know how they allow it to happen. If I lose my temper in the flesh, for SURE the LORD will convict me and I'll have to go and apologize! And these guys just lose it like they 'can'?? I do not want to be in their shoes when they stand before the Throne of Glory. I have enough to answer for myself Thank You very much !

One thing I have been learning as I take in teachings. I check it out in the scriptures. I ask the Lord to give me insight, understanding and to show me the TRUTH. I don't want to be deceived. There are some people who believe God has a warehouse in heaven with body parts and when someone needs a new heart or liver, He gives it to an angel to deliver it. And people actually believe this stuff !!! Benny doesn't teach this to my knowledge, nor does Hagee.

Apostle Paul said he never used his authority for tearing down, only for building up. One of the most confusing things in the Christian life for me is seeing talented and gifted orators, who supposedly are the most fruitful and blessing to the body of Christ, all the while amassing fortunes and glory to themselves, can be so abusive to "the least of My brothers."

I'm not judging these ones. I'm just a little confused.

Ohio,
I hear you LOUD and CLEAR. There are a lot of things I don't understand about these teachers/preachers. Believe me. I don't know if they live double lives, or if they've simply got caught up with the 'business' aspect of the ministry. That is why it is soo difficult for me to be 'loyal' to a particular 'ministry'. That's why I hardly go to 'church'...but I love to fellowship and pray with saints and I do like listening to different gifted teachers !

You might be wondering what I 'see' in Benny's teachings, like everyone else. Well...even though he's a 'showman', he can explain the Word of God without the fluff-fluff. He can be very deep. But he can be full of himself too even though he 'tries' not to. And yes...his wife of 30 plus years recently divorced him. No one is saying why. It's hush-hush but Hinn did say with absolute certainty, there was no adultery or fornication involved from either of them. I believe it because if you ask me Benny loves his ministry more than 'life' itself. He never should have gotten married if you ask me. LORD HAVE MERCY !!!!