Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches TOMES

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

By take no thought I think you mean anxious thought ...

In our home meeting here we had a family which stopped meeting with us because I wouldn't share on end-time prophesy. I refuse to do it. I went through all that. Even sat down and mapped out the whole book of Revelations on Corel Draw - as if there aren't enough dragons and flying horses diagrams.

Eventually, I came to the conclusion that people with the entire alphabet behind their names can't come to an agreement. What can I add? Perhaps just another dogmatic point of view, being used as an excuse for division.

I haven't read Nigel's article yet, but plan to do so today. But what is refreshing to me is the idea that a former LSM zealot is willing to challenge what "Brother Nee said," or what "Brother Lee said." I can remember just resting in whatever Lee said, and feeling confident that it could never be called into question. It feels so good to be free to do critical thinking, and actually follow what the Lord is leading from within.

Since leaving LSM as my only resource, I have had so many "ah ha" moments while reading others' writings that exposed the error of Lee and Nee. You just sort of sit back in your chair and go, "Man, where was my head? Why couldn't I see that before?" The word "veil" comes to mind.

Roger

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Roger

Since leaving LSM as my only resource, I have had so many "ah ha" moments while reading others' writings that exposed the error of Lee and Nee. You just sort of sit back in your chair and go, "Man, where was my head? Why couldn't I see that before?" The word "veil" comes to mind.

Roger

I have one more bone to pick with Lee, and the Protestants. This notion that the RCC is the whore of Babylon is a bunch of bunkum. How convenient to objectify the whore as the RCC.

If you ask me the whore of Babylon is the collective flesh nature ; the flesh, the fleshly mind, and the fleshly self.

But we don't want to admit that about ourselves. We'd rather objectify it upon the RCC, to point away from ourselves and our fleshly nature.

So Lee could distract us from himself as our need for a fleshly leader, or a leader in the flesh, by pointing us to the bogyman the RCC.

Lifting Lee up as we did was nothing short of "the need for a fleshly king," like the Jews in the OT. We needed something in the flesh to look up to. So, in the end, Lee was the whore of Babylon. Can you blame him, given his need for his own megalomania, for objectifying the whore as the RCC? It suited his own needs ; the needs of the flesh, and our needs too, for the need to have a fleshly representative of God.

And that's the whore of Babylon...that need for a fleshly leader.

[Paul Cox]

A thought has crossed my mind from time to time. Why is she called "Mystery" Babylon? What's the mystery? Maybe the mystery is that the Church is both the virgin and the great Whore. The natural part, as you say, is Babylon. The pure part is the Virgin. And who is to judge? Only the Lord. In that case, every church has an element of Babylon, including the Local Church, which takes pride in calling itself Philadelphia.

There really isn't a whole lot of mystery in the teachings of Witness Lee. He liked to say, simply this, and simply that. And, at the end of the day his teachings were just that - simple. Not so high, and not much of a peak.

Roger

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Roger

A thought has crossed my mind from time to time. Why is she called "Mystery" Babylon? What's the mystery? Maybe the mystery is that the Church is both the virgin and the great Whore. The natural part, as you say, is Babylon. The pure part is the Virgin. And who is to judge? Only the Lord. In that case, every church has an element of Babylon, including the Local Church, which takes pride in calling itself Philadelphia.

There really isn't a whole lot of mystery in the teachings of Witness Lee. He liked to say, simply this, and simply that. And, at the end of the day his teachings were just that - simple. Not so high, and not much of a peak.

Roger

Roger, Hi again brother !
Great Question !

As the Church, the Bride of Christ is composed of regenerated followers of Christ, so 'Mystery, Babylon the Great" is the bride of Antichrist and is composed of the followers of ALL FALSE Religions.

Satan is a counterfeit. Just as CHRIST is the MESSIAH, the SAVIOUR so is Antichrist the FALSE messiah and savior of this world (so it seems.) It is only fitting that if Christ is to have a bride, then the Antichrist will also have a bride "Mystery, Babylon the Great", not a city like the Holy City New Jerusalem but a SYSTEM, a religious and apostate system composed of all false religions.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

It is only fitting that if Christ is to have a bride, then the Antichrist will also have a bride "Mystery, Babylon the Great"

Prophetess CMW, on what do you base this presumption on?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Prophetess CMW, on what do you base this presumption on?

Sir Awareness. Glad you asked !
Revelation 18 talks about the 'City', a literal city, called Babylon the Great. In chapter 19, the kings of the earth bewail and lament the destruction of the city, which is destroyed by a mighty earthquake and fire.

When the Angel showed John the Bride, the Lamb's Wife, in Revelation 21:9-10, He did not show John a Woman. Instead He showed John the Great City -Holy Jerusalem descending out of Heaven from God. The Holy City Jerusalem is called a bride because the inhabitants are the BRIDE, not the 'city'.

The Bride of Christ is without spot or wrinkle or blemish. She is pure and Holy, Sanctified by the Blood of the Lamb.

The bride of the Antichrist is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.


Christ vs Antichrist
Bride of Christ vs Bride of Antichrist

Did this help some ? Or is it as clear as mud?

[awareness]

Got it.....I'll play it safe and stay away from brides.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Roger, Hi again brother !
Great Question !

As the Church, the Bride of Christ is composed of regenerated followers of Christ, so 'Mystery, Babylon the Great" is the bride of Antichrist and is composed of the followers of ALL FALSE Religions.

Satan is a counterfeit. Just as CHRIST is the MESSIAH, the SAVIOUR so is Antichrist the FALSE messiah and savior of this world (so it seems.) It is only fitting that if Christ is to have a bride, then the Antichrist will also have a bride "Mystery, Babylon the Great", not a city like the Holy City New Jerusalem but a SYSTEM, a religious and apostate system composed of all false religions.

So, within a denomination like the Roman Catholics, for example, there are true believers who follow Christ, and within the same group there are those who follow Anti-Christ. So you are saying that some within the same group will be part of the bride, and some within the same group will be Babylon?

Or, are you espousing the view that Lee had which defines groups by their general belief and expression - or at least their own view of their expression?

Roger

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Roger

So, within a denomination like the Roman Catholics, for example, there are true believers who follow Christ, and within the same group there are those who follow Anti-Christ. So you are saying that some within the same group will be part of the bride, and some within the same group will be Babylon?

If you read the scriptures carefully, yes I believe that's what it says. There are Catholics who will be part of the Bride and some who are will be following the Antichrist because they are not really saved. They are tares. They look like the real thing..the real enchilada..the real believers. Btw, I believe the False Prophet is going to come out of the RCC... or maybe the LSM ?
Consider Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In whose name are devils and demons cast out? Why do you suppose God will say "Depart from me you that work Iniquity. I never knew you." ?

There will be people from Lee's ministry, from the RCC, from the Word of Faith, from the Baptists, Pentecostals, and all kinds of so called Christian groups who are workers of iniquity but I don't know who they are nor do I go around wondering who is a wheat and who is a tare. Only God knows.

Or, are you espousing the view that Lee had which defines groups by their general belief and expression - or at least their own view of their expression?

Roger,
I'm not sure I quite understand the question but I don't espouse Lee's views, that is the way he explained the scriptures and I certainly do not agree with some of his teachings. But he did teach us some things that will be forever in my DNA.
For example, it was under Lee's ministry I /we learned to call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus. It is scriptural. And IN HIS NAME IS the Fullness of GOD.

So when I prayerfully consider Colossians 2:6Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, (vs9) For in Him all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form and ( 2 Corinthians 5:19).
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, saying the Name of Jesus with a pure heart means soooo much more than the repetitious jargon of my days in the LC. When I hear the LSMrs call on the Name of Jesus, I CRINGE because it has become vain repetition. Yet it was in the LC I learned to call on the Precious, Beloved, Awesome Name of JESUS. So be it. I learned to pray in vain mind you, the 'Our Father' in the RCC. So what? It is scriptural. However, when I do pray the 'Our Father', I pray it with a true Heart in Full assurance of Faith, not in a vain, religious way.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have one more bone to pick with Lee, and the Protestants. This notion that the RCC is the whore of Babylon is a bunch of bunkum. How convenient to objectify the whore as the RCC...

Greetings Brother Awareness,

Another way of putting it:

Institutions become the whore for they take on a life of their own. Our hearts can become whorified too when they shift their focus from our Lord to idols such as men run institutions. The flesh is hard to shake off considering that we are wrapped in it.

The leading of The Spirit is where we lose it. If we are not lead by The Spirit in everything we do, we are being led by our flesh.

Lee may have been a distraction just as anything can be. But we as individuals bear the responsibility not to be distracted.

We as individuals can only be distractions and should always understand and never forget it. C.S. Lewis drove that point home and this is the main front of the battle we are fighting.

Grace to all men!

Don

[awareness]

That's right Manna-man, the whore of Babylon is man's institutions. All of them, the RCC and The Recovery institution too, and all the others. Ain't it nifty that one institution calls another one the whore? Pot meet kettle.

Little wonder that Lee's system took the shape of the RCC, with Lee as Pope. I have to ask : Who's the whore now?

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's right Manna-man, the whore of Babylon is man's institutions. All of them, the RCC and The Recovery institution too, and all the others. Ain't it nifty that one institution calls another one the whore? Pot meet kettle.

Little wonder that Lee's system took the shape of the RCC, with Lee as Pope. I have to ask : Who's the whore now?

Yep, being distracted is understandable. In these earthen vessels.

We all have whored when we put something before Him.

But marching on in distraction thinking The Lord is covering your distraction/sin is spiritual Russian Roulette! Guilt and Shame don't help either.

Turn, Turn My Wondering Heart! Lord! I confess my heart is untrue!

Confessing leads to blessing.

Cover-up leads to shame....

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by manna-man

[/COLOR]Yep, being distracted is understandable. In these earthen vessels.

We all have whored when we put something before Him.

But marching on in distraction thinking The Lord is covering your distraction/sin is spiritual Russian Roulette! Guilt and Shame don't help either.

Turn, Turn My Wondering Heart! Lord! I confess my heart is untrue!

Confessing leads to blessing.

Cover-up leads to shame....

Greetings saints.



It's easy to get caught up in opinionating about such things.

In all of this there is good news! "The Gospel Of Jesus Christ!"

In Colossians we learn:

6Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spiritsa of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.c

So we need to be on guard against unecessary cynical attitudes, for we know and trust and hope in our faith. Lets not hold to as verse 8 says: "phylosophy and empty deceit!"

But rather our Shepherd Jesus who goes before us day and night.

I want to be abounding in a thankful attitude! For behold! I'm Alive!!!

One more thing, the so called institutions can be a good thing if The Lord is behind the scenes doing what He does. Take Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale for example. Great things are being done! The gospel is being preached!



Grace to all men!

Don

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Roger

In our home meeting here we had a family which stopped meeting with us because I wouldn't share on end-time prophesy....

Hi Roger !

Long time no 'see'. I have been 'here', 'there' and 'everywhere'. As you and most people who 'know' me here on the forum, KNOW I love studying the end times I truly believe we are living in. If the nation of Israel had not been restored, and technology not where it is today, then perhaps I would not be intensely studying the end times. BUT, my study time is not consumed with the book of Daniel and Revelation nor solely on the end times. I may study it intensely but there are a whole range of topics I study intensely as well. I love ALL of the WORD of GOD. The Word of GOD is LIVING. It is Powerful. It is ACTIVE and it (He) is operating in my being. I pray without ceasing pray first by constantly Praising, Worshipping and Thanking Jesus, our Precious LORD day and night, night and day. I next pray for the church/the saints for if we are not strong in the power of HIS MIGHT, how in the world are we going to reach the unbelievers and those who have been burned by religion ? Which brings me to the 3rd prayer of intercession and that is praying for unbelievers constantly to be set free from the powers of darkness and to be drawn to the Kingdom of LIGHT and LOVE.

With that, I can tell you it was GOD HIMSELF Who gave me a burning desire to study the book of Revelation and Daniel and yet I am coming to understand the entire Bible is about the First and Second Coming Christ and how to prepare our lives for His Glorious Return by living unto Christ through His Holy Spirit in us.

IMHO, MUCH of Lee's teachings on the Lord's return is nothing but convuleted garbage. It took me a long time to figure it out because one of the problems most former LCrs face after leaving is discerning what is of GOD and what is of Lee. Lee did a number on us in confusing us thus damaging us because he didn't teach us to STUDY the Word of God for ourselves under the inspiration of God the HOly Spirit Who is the REVEALER of the WORD of GOD. We did not need to for he 'studied' it or so we thought and thus we didn't think, study and pray for the Lord to give US Revelation of the Word. Also...not everything Lee taught was wrong because he did teach from the bible and sometimes what he taught was anointed by God and sometimes he made things up along the way yet referring to the Bible.

This is why most of us struggle with that spirit of confusion when we read / study / pray the Word. Sometimes what we read that 'clicks' is something Lee taught or we, in our SELVES try to figure out what it means. Other times, as we read and study, the Holy Spirit will REVEAL the true meaning of what we are reading and suddenly realize Lee was WRONG in his personal interpretation. That's why his footnotes in the RcV are soo dangerous because much of it is his OWN interpretation.

* The 24 elders are the redeemed church, and is evidenced by the Song they were singing in Revelation 5:9-10. Lee says they are angels but angels are not redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. Jesus did not die on the cross, shed His Precious Blood for angels. Nope...He shed His Precious Blood for us, the REDEEMED who are to be CROWNED kings and priests unto the Most High God.

* The man-child is not imho, the 'overcomers' that Lee says they are. For the church by this time is already in the heavenlies.

Roger you wrote something extremely, extremely important and profound:

I can remember just resting in whatever Lee said, and feeling confident that it could never be called into question.

Furthermore, Lee could and never admitted he was wrong on anything and the 'fruit of his womb' are the same way. They can never admit they are/were wrong. But what about US ? Can we admit we are wrong at times on certain views as we grow in Christ and are enlightened and given understanding to the Word of God ? I have had many 'OH !! "I SEE ! I GET it now" moments. And sometimes I've had to say I'm wrong. You're right. (that is GOD is Right.)

It's too bad the family stopped meeting with you !! I'm sorry I couldn't keep up with the fellowship with you regarding the end times. I wish I would have been there because I would have been all over the place on the end times without date setting (although I do believe we are very, very close to the return of our LORD JESUS CHRIST ! WOW !! To witness the dead in Christ rise first and then we who are alive to be caught with them in the air to meet the Lord in the Clouds of Glory !! (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) I can hardly WAIT.

And I'll tell you this much ! You better believe the entire world is going to shake when Jesus returns in the Air and the dead in Christ RESURRECT in their GLORIOUS BODIES and WE who are alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye ! You don't think we are going to shake the power of darkness, the prince of this world, the principalities and the powers of the air ?? You don't think there is going to be a massive LIGHTning storm across the globe ? Don't you think that when the dead in Christ rise from the graves or the ocean floor, the earth and the sea is not going to 'tremble' as in earthquakes galore and Tsunamis ? This is the GLORY, the POWER of ALMIGHTY GOD being manifested through US !!! Halleluiah to the LAMB of GOD !!