How do you know the Lord's leading?

[byHismercy]

Wow, Aron...I have read so many of your posts as to trust your view. But I don't know if I am fully understanding your perspective here. I have so much to learn, or I should say, relearn. I have just seen dispensationalism, and rightly dividing the word into who He was speaking to, Israel or the church....this seems to make complete sense to me, and I asked a pastor I trust and he agreed it was sound. What is your take? I am in the place where I am still just getting my bearings, in a sense, realizing the depth of deception I was in, and believed. I am excited to look into His word from this new perspective....

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Wow, Aron...I have read so many of your posts as to trust your view. But I don't know if I am fully understanding your perspective here...

Yes this is my perspective. Not "truth" in some doctrinal/dogmatic sense. But it seems to be Peter's perspective (Acts 2:31), and Paul's as well(Acts 13:35).

Yet Lee (and others) felt that they could cut this off. They were free to see "Christ" in the windows of Noah's ark but not in the psalmist expressing fealty to God. Because, you know, the psalmist was a sinner. Yet neither Peter in Acts 2 nor Paul in Acts 13 took that route in interpreting Psalm 16 (which you quoted earlier, and I replied to).

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The first book of the Psalms comprises Psalms 1—41. We should not forget that in this first book there are seven psalms which speak concerning Christ: Psalm 2, Psalm 8, Psalm 16, Psalms 22—24, and Psalm 40. ~Life study of Psalms.

Why isn't the obedient man in Psalm 1 also Jesus Christ? Or the righteous man who obeys God and is rescued from death in Psalm 18? Or the man who has the power to lay his life down, and pick it up again, in Psalm 3, verse 5? (cf John 10:18) This righteous, obedient, and faithful man trusts in God, and is rewarded for his faith. This is the "faith of Christ" of Phil 3:9. "He (Christ) trusted in God; let Him (God) save Him (Christ) now" ~Psalm 22:8; Matt 27:43.

Why should we ignore this, and look at ourselves, wondering if we will make it, when Christ already has?

[Evangelical]

Not everything the Psalmist wrote is of the New Covenant/New Testament. For example, Psalm 139, which I referred to in my previous post, is a wonderful Psalm, about God's tender loving care, being knitted together in the womb, until it goes into hatred for enemies and his wish for God to kill the wicked.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Not everything the Psalmist wrote is of the New Covenant/New Testament. For example, Psalm 139, which I referred to in my previous post, is a wonderful Psalm, about God's tender loving care, being knitted together in the womb, until it goes into hatred for enemies and his wish for God to kill the wicked.

And how does this logic obviate 34 of the first 41 psalms, a pattern that continues in the following 110 chapters of the Psalms in the RecV? We go neatly from "not everything" to "hardly anything", and nobody even notices? How could Witness Lee teach like this in front of thousands and nobody said anything?

And why didn't Lee use this logic when the psalmist wrote of bathing his feet in his enemy's blood, and crushing his skull, in Psalm 64? There, Lee's footnote saw "Christ defeating Satan". . . why not elsewhere? And how come no one pointed out the inconsistency?

And why didn't Lee notice Paul's New Covenant/New Testament word that we fight not against flesh and blood but against evil spiritual powers - not against flesh and blood, but yes, we fight?

This is the peril of subjectivism: ultimately you take someone else's subjectivism as your own. Their fallen human imagination becomes your 'reality'. With Jesus Christ, yes; with a fellow sinner, no.

The question was, "How do you know the Lord's leading?" My answer is, first you have to see the Lord. He's right there, in black and white, in print, waiting for the Spirit's breath. John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Cor 2:10. What happens when the Bible expositor says no, it's merely the word of fallen human beings, mere "natural concepts" and "mixed sentiments"? My reply is, the fallen human concepts are rather those of the expositor.

"I (Christ) come to do God's will". It doesn't get much simpler than that. But first you have to see it.

[awareness]

Trapped, it may be hard to determine what the Spirit is telling you, if anything. Some Christians I know wait for 3 confirmations ... and even some of those turn out wrong.

But I think it's safe to know some things God is always saying. We can safely conclude that God is saying : "Don't join or stay in cults. Don't join any group that intervenes between you and I."

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

This is the peril of subjectivism: ultimately you take someone else's subjectivism as your own. Their fallen human imagination becomes your 'reality'. With Jesus Christ, yes; with a fellow sinner, no.

The question was, "How do you know the Lord's leading?" My answer is, first you have to see the Lord. He's right there, in black and white, in print, waiting for the Spirit's breath. John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Cor 2:10. What happens when the Bible expositor says no, it's merely the word of fallen human beings, mere "natural concepts" and "mixed sentiments"? My reply is, the fallen human concepts are rather those of the expositor.

"I (Christ) come to do God's will". It doesn't get much simpler than that. But first you have to see it.

Yes indeed. Much peril there. And anyone who slices and dices God breathed scripture into 'yes, divinely inspired' and 'not so much divine as fallen' has already gone so far from the true faith in God and His word as to be on the wrong path.....not to be trusted for sound christian advice any further!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

And how does this logic obviate 34 of the first 41 psalms, a pattern that continues in the following 110 chapters of the Psalms in the RecV? We go neatly from "not everything" to "hardly anything", and nobody even notices? How could Witness Lee teach like this in front of thousands and nobody said anything?

And why didn't Lee use this logic when the psalmist wrote of bathing his feet in his enemy's blood, and crushing his skull, in Psalm 64? There, Lee's footnote saw "Christ defeating Satan". . . why not elsewhere? And how come no one pointed out the inconsistency?

And why didn't Lee notice Paul's New Covenant/New Testament word that we fight not against flesh and blood but against evil spiritual powers - not against flesh and blood, but yes, we fight?

This is the peril of subjectivism: ultimately you take someone else's subjectivism as your own. Their fallen human imagination becomes your 'reality'. With Jesus Christ, yes; with a fellow sinner, no.

The question was, "How do you know the Lord's leading?" My answer is, first you have to see the Lord. He's right there, in black and white, in print, waiting for the Spirit's breath. John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Cor 2:10. What happens when the Bible expositor says no, it's merely the word of fallen human beings, mere "natural concepts" and "mixed sentiments"? My reply is, the fallen human concepts are rather those of the expositor.

"I (Christ) come to do God's will". It doesn't get much simpler than that. But first you have to see it.

A better question is why are you so fixated on the Psalms and is it really such a big deal? Maybe everyone else thought nothing of it and you, well, everyone has their peculiarities and obsessions.

[Trapped]

Everything everyone has said has been very helpful while simultaneously hitting directly onto the crusted padlock that binds me that I've carried around for years. I'm not saying the padlock is opened but just that you all have hit right on it.

On one hand I've lived my whole life observing and hearing everyone speak as if and live as if the Lord is communicating directly to them. As a young person I have several different memories of a parent driving me somewhere innocuous (say, Back to School Night or something like that) and halfway there for some reason they didn't "have the peace" to continue driving to it and we had to turn around and go home. I learned from a young age that "the peace" is the overriding factor that I could never reason against, further being complicated by the fact that it was never accompanied by an explanation. Often there was an apology if it was a let down for me, but I knew I just had to accept it because that was the only choice. So as a kid, "the peace" or "the Lord's leading or speaking" was at a minimum something distinct enough to disappoint your child over.

I think I've mentioned on another thread about being told in high school conferences that "the way" to choose a college was to write down your options on a paper, sit down and pray over those options, and go wherever the Lord is leading. Well of course I did that, but never got "the Lord's leading", so I got frustrated and just chose to go where I wanted to go. In college I had another big choice about studying abroad, again couldn't get any leading, and ended up having to do the "I'm going to take steps in this direction and if You don't want me to do it, then You have to shut the doors" thing. Well, He didn't shut doors even though there were many He could have, so I went through with it, and had a big negative experience as a result that has affected me since then. I always wonder if that was God "giving me what for" because I somehow didn't do what He wanted me to, even though I never got His leading about it in the first place when I gave Him the chance. In other words, I tried to get "the peace" about college and going abroad, didn't, and after the choice still wonder to this day what God's thought about it was. Did I make the right one? How do I know? Will I ever know? If not, how do you live your life that way, not knowing or having a gauge on what the Lord's feeling is about what you do? What is the point then? I've lived a lot of my life pushing Him aside but to find out that others who seem to live letting Him in end up living in practice without His actual input makes my head spin. I can't put the two together, given the way it was spoken about growing up.

The thought that the Lord speaks through others or through your situation has also always confounded me. More often than not "others" are just thoughtlessly flapping their tongues rather than being conduits for the Lord's speaking. Speaking through situations is problematic too.....I recall years ago I took a short class on a practical topic that was a big hurdle for me to even sign up for, given the context of this thread. I really liked the class but on the last meeting of it, I had an unusually, bizarrely, horrible time getting to class, so much so that I thought "does the Lord not want me to go to this class or something?". It struck me all of a sudden that maybe the Lord was intentionally preventing me from going for some reason and using the environment to "speak" that. I pulled over and was paralyzed by the thought of continuing on and possibly something bad happening because I chose to keep going even though possibly the Lord didn't want it. The other side of things was that there was a prayer meeting that night at my house that I was missing for the class. This hit me and I furiously "realized" that God wanted me to go to the prayer meeting and miss the last day of the class that I really liked. So I turned around fuming, missed the class, and went to the prayer meeting, telling God He had better make it worthwhile. Well, the prayer meeting wasn't anything special. I literally checked the news for a day or two afterwards to see if someone had gotten shot on campus the night I would have been there to see if the Lord had "saved me from something" by using the environment to stop me from going. Of course no one got shot. So I was just left with the thought, AS USUAL, that God does not like me having any simple, non-sinful, human enjoyment and rips it away wherever He can. So long story short, I just cannot live myself trying to read meaning into situational circumstances in that way. God may use both humans and situations in that way, but I have always had trouble with it.

I didn't want to get into the LC thing but given my background I really don't have a choice because that's the basis of the formation of the padlock in this area. Paralysis by analysis really is the case. Many years have gone by without any human growth or advancement in my life because I have been so conditioned to not take a step without a distinct word from the Lord, lest I have the gall to take one step without His express permission or direction. It is difficult to describe the weight this puts on a person and the unnecessary agitation and frustration it produces in what should be a normal human life. Somehow the balancing thought of compassion, mercy, and forgiveness from the Lord if we do something He didn't lead us to do got all but lost in what was spoken in the LCs, and the heavy insinuation that God would come down on you if you dared take a breath without His approval becomes a tight bind around your hands, feet, and ribcage. I'm just choked. It sounds crazy, but even something like "I want to go mini-golfing today, so I'm going to go do it" comes with massive chains and the fear that something bad might happen on the golf course if I did something like that without the leading or the "okay" from the Lord.

As an adult finally coming to the point where I care less and less about how I look vocalizing to people my bewilderment about the Lord in things like this, it is actually distressing to a certain extent to find out that others who have given their whole lives to the Lord also say they have never had the Lord's speaking, and are similarly shrugging their shoulders when it comes to figuring it out. I cannot reconcile being a Christian and following a Person who by all accounts doesn't seem to "show up". Is everyone else grasping at air like I am? I cannot live a life that way. Why does everyone seem to talk in concrete concepts about following the Lord and "the Lord spoke to me xyz" or "the Lord said abc"? Are they the loony ones? How does everyone else seem to be so much more sure and firm in their faith but when I dig into it I find out they aren't living "according to" any actual leading anyway?

Like I said, everyone's responses have been very helpful, and my ears are open for any more. I think if I had heard OBW's response of "The answer may already be in front of you. It may simply be what you would rather do. If either choice is moral, righteous, not in contradiction to something clearly stated in the Bible, etc., then you have freedom. It is a theft of your freedom in Christ to come under attack for not arriving at some "sovereignly-ordained" response rather than simply taking the path you decide upon" growing up then my life would have been very, very different, in a good way. I need to hear it every day for about 5 years though to make what I'm trapped by fade away.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Trapped

As an adult finally coming to the point where I care less and less about how I look vocalizing to people my bewilderment about the Lord in things like this, it is actually distressing to a certain extent to find out that others who have given their whole lives to the Lord also say they have never had the Lord's speaking, and are similarly shrugging their shoulders when it comes to figuring it out. I cannot reconcile being a Christian and following a Person who by all accounts doesn't seem to "show up". Is everyone else grasping at air like I am? I cannot live a life that way. Why does everyone seem to talk in concrete concepts about following the Lord and "the Lord spoke to me xyz" or "the Lord said abc"? Are they the loony ones? How does everyone else seem to be so much more sure and firm in their faith but when I dig into it I find out they aren't living "according to" any actual leading anyway?

Thanks for sharing Trapped - I feel for you.

This verse came to mind - "For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Gal 5:13

It's not overly spiritual, but powerful. It holds a simple-practicality that only the Spirit of God can deliver. May our God direct you to the truth, cover you with his comfort and protection. May he deliver you from deception and confusion and lead you to His wonderful grace. There are real Christians out there (firm in faith, not grasping at straws, etc) - I hope you're able to meet one soon and have these same conversations in person.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I always wonder if that was God "giving me what for" because I somehow didn't do what He wanted me to, even though I never got His leading about it in the first place when I gave Him the chance. In other words, I tried to get "the peace" about college and going abroad, didn't, and after the choice still wonder to this day what God's thought about it was. Did I make the right one? How do I know? Will I ever know? If not, how do you live your life that way, not knowing or having a gauge on what the Lord's feeling is about what you do? What is the point then? I've lived a lot of my life pushing Him aside but to find out that others who seem to live letting Him in end up living in practice without His actual input makes my head spin. I can't put the two together, given the way it was spoken about growing up.

More often than not "others" are just thoughtlessly flapping their tongues rather than being conduits for the Lord's speaking. Speaking through situations is problematic too.....I recall years ago I took a short class on a practical topic that was a big hurdle for me to even sign up for, given the context of this thread. I really liked the class but on the last meeting of it, I had an unusually, bizarrely, horrible time getting to class, so much so that I thought "does the Lord not want me to go to this class or something?". It struck me all of a sudden that maybe the Lord was intentionally preventing me from going for some reason and using the environment to "speak" that. I pulled over and was paralyzed by the thought of continuing on and possibly something bad happening because I chose to keep going even though possibly the Lord didn't want it.

Trapped, you are "trapped" in the same fold (John 10) as your parents. It's basis premise is this: "God is out to get you every time you screw up." This really is a life of fear. As Nell said, experienced Christian counselors / pastors can help deliver you from this spirit of fear. Much of this excessive analysis paralysis is designed by this ministry to keep you padlocked in indecision. In this state you become robotically useful to the ministry but little else -- e.g. if your marriage fails, or your job fails, that's OK as long as you remain absolute for the ministry. This ministry bribes us to think "peace" within is your guide rather than faith in Him.

This fear causes you to second guess every decision you will ever make. Think about it. Whenever life gets tough, and you know "tough" happens to all of us, you will always be tempted to quit because of the fear that you made a mistake. Some of faith's hardest decisions are not made with any "peace" at all. Living in the LC is kind of like living in the military -- there's a certain comfort or "peace" in having others make all the decisions for you.

To a certain extent, we are all working thru these same dynamics. It definitely has helped me by fellowshipping with Christians outside the LC's. The healthy ones are not bound by the same shackles. They think differently. Our heavenly Father loves us, and wants to live thru your human life. Tell the Lord what you would like to do. Weigh your decisions against morality and righteousness. The Lord loves to be included in the thoughts and intents of our heart. But tell the Lord you need specifics, without which you cannot be responsible for "messing up." When trials come your way, never think the Lord does not love you, rather He becomes more near and dear. He is never mad at you, rather mad about you!

When I left the LC, I was so bound by this "one church one city" teaching, that I had to move to another city in order to meet with other Christian churches. Today I look back on this as kind of silly, but that's where I was at. I needed time to be "de-leavened" by researching the scriptures anew and learning from others. At the same time I left, a senior co-worker also was departing. He said that if asked, just tell others that I am just trying to follow the Lord. That helped to free me, and point me in the right direction.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

why are you so fixated on the Psalms and is it really such a big deal?

I see that you've nothing of substance to address my critique, otherwise you'd offer a rebuttal. So the diversionary tactics continue.

I didn't bring up the Psalms, another poster did. I made a comment and was asked to clarify, and did (or tried at any rate). Then you started the diversionary tactics - "not every Psalm" is of the New Covenant. . . I responded and now, apparently lacking recourse, you fall back on "shoot the messenger". Your loyalty to your masters at LSM is revealed: when you can't defend the indefensible then it's time to throw the electronic equivalent of dust in the air.

As to my "fixation" on the Psalms, it's the most quoted book in the New Covenant/New Testament, and among the most crudely mangled by the disjointed exegesis of Mr. Lee. So it seemed like pretty low-hanging fruit. Your inability to address my comments on their face indicates that I'm on to something.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A better question is why are you so fixated on the Psalms and is it really such a big deal? Maybe everyone else thought nothing of it . . .

A better question is, why so many "thought nothing of it" when the expositor made such a hash out of scripture, and blithely overturned clear apostolic precedent in NT reception? Were they that stupefied, or were they cowed into silence by the incessant drumbeat of "oneness"? And to the point of this thread, how can one know the will of the Lord if this is their ''Christ''?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

I see that you've nothing of substance to address my critique, otherwise you'd offer a rebuttal. So the diversionary tactics continue.

I didn't bring up the Psalms, another poster did. I made a comment and was asked to clarify, and I did ( or tried at any rate). Then you started the diversionary tactics - "not every Psalm" is of the New Covenant. I answered that post and now, apparently lacking recourse, you fall back on "shoot the messenger". Your loyalty to your masters at LSM is glaring - if you can't defend the indefensible then it's time to throw the electronic equivalent of dust in the air.

As to my "fixation" on the Psalms, it's the most quoted book in the New Covenant/New Testament, and among the most crudely mangled by the disjointed exegesis of Mr. Lee. So it seemed like pretty low-hanging fruit. Your inability to address my comments on their face indicares that I'm on to something here.

There is a much simpler reason why I have not addressed your critique here - this thread is not about the Psalms and we have already discussed this topic at length in other threads, in particular, the one from which you quoted me in this thread.

Originally Posted by aron

A better question is, why so many "thought nothing of it" when the expositor made such a hash out of scripture, and blithely overturned clear apostolic precedent in NT reception? Were they that stupefied, or were they cowed into silence by the incessant drumbeat of "oneness"? And to the point of this thread, how can one know the will of the Lord if this is their ''Christ''?

You are casting doubt on a person's ability to know the will of the Lord based upon your dissatisfaction with Lee's footnotes?