The Mormon Church is "The Church"?

Drake · 08-20-2018, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I guess that verse can be confusing. Is a person born of the Spirit like the wind? Jesus says the wind blows where it wishes? Is that what he means about the person born of the Spirit?

If we add truth shall set you free, it certainly sounds like it.

At any rate, I doubt it means to be joined to "The Church," Mormonism, Local-Churchism, or otherwise.

That aside, what do you think the verse means?

awareness,

I think it means that a person who is born of the Spirit, that is regenerated, is like the wind... in that, it is a bit hard to put your finger on it, but when you hear its sound, or watch trees sway in its wake, or it blows your toupee off then you know its there.... so it is with a regenerated person, you may not completely understand what happened to them and its not fully recognizable but it is a fact.. just like the wind. The context appears to support that interpretation.

Thanks
Drake

awareness · 08-20-2018, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

awareness,

I think it means that a person who is born of the Spirit, that is regenerated, is like the wind... in that, it is a bit hard to put your finger on it, but when you hear its sound, or watch trees sway in its wake, or it blows your toupee off then you know its there.... so it is with a regenerated person, you may not completely understand what happened to them and its not fully recognizable but it is a fact.. just like the wind. The context appears to support that interpretation.

Thanks
Drake

So to you the verse and context means that someone born of the Spirit is as real as the wind?

Interesting. Thanks.

Drake · 08-20-2018, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So to you the verse and context means that someone born of the Spirit is as real as the wind?

Interesting. Thanks.

Not exactly.

All people are real.. obviously... but this verse is not talking about how real they are.... that would be over simplistic...rather, a regenerated person is different and their reality is not something you can always put your finger on. The "real" in the case of a regenerated person is like the wind... can't see it but you know something is there because you can hear it or see its effect. So, its not a statement that people born of the Spirit are real like all people are, believer and unbeliever alike. Rather, this is specifically about regenerated people and the reality of their regeneration.

That the Lord used sound as the evidence of the wind may have something to do with the testimony of He and his disciples mentioned in V11. They were making a sound and Nicodemus recognized it but could not define it exactly... so he seeks Jesus out to find out more and the Lord appears to be saying to Nicodemus something like ... we speak, you recognize something that you could not precisely define, and what you heard from us is mysterious just like the wind, you're not sure where it came from or where it is going but it is a fact and a reality.

Something like that.

Hope that helps... but in any case, I still don't see how it has anything to do with your initial counsel. Got the truth will set you free... but still don't understand how you meant "be as the wind" when applied to Christians in the local churches.... even using a different definition of what the "wind" is ... that may be because I don't know what your definition if "wind" is.

Feel free to clarify.

Drake

awareness · 08-20-2018, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Not exactly.

All people are real.. obviously... but this verse is not talking about how real they are.... that would be over simplistic...rather, a regenerated person is different and their reality is not something you can always put your finger on. The "real" in the case of a regenerated person is like the wind... can't see it but you know something is there because you can hear it or see its effect. So, its not a statement that people born of the Spirit are real like all people are, believer and unbeliever alike. Rather, this is specifically about regenerated people and the reality of their regeneration.

That the Lord used sound as the evidence of the wind may have something to do with the testimony of He and his disciples mentioned in V11. They were making a sound and Nicodemus recognized it but could not define it exactly... so he seeks Jesus out to find out more and the Lord appears to be saying to Nicodemus something like ... we speak, you recognize something that you could not precisely define, and what you heard from us is mysterious just like the wind, you're not sure where it came from or where it is going but it is a fact and a reality.

Something like that.

Hope that helps... but in any case, I still don't see how it has anything to do with your initial counsel. Got the truth will set you free... but still don't understand how you meant "be as the wind" when applied to Christians in the local churches.... even using a different definition of what the "wind" is ... that may be because I don't know what your definition if "wind" is.

Feel free to clarify.

Drake

That's an interesting explanation of why Jesus used "wind." It may be true, then again maybe not. Maybe Jesus meant that a person of the Spirit is as free as the wind.

The Greek word used here for wind is pneuma. It could mean a current of air. But it's also used as breath, breeze, figuratively as spirit ; sometimes as the rational soul, vital principle, or mental disposition. Also as angel, daemon, God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit, and ghost, life, spirit and mind.

Here, pneuma clearly means blowing wind. And the wind, "blows where it wishes." Back to freedom again.

leastofthese · 08-20-2018, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

That's an interesting explanation of why Jesus used "wind." It may be true, then again maybe not. Maybe Jesus meant that a person of the Spirit is as free as the wind.

The Greek word used here for wind is pneuma. It could mean a current of air. But it's also used as breath, breeze, figuratively as spirit ; sometimes as the rational soul, vital principle, or mental disposition. Also as angel, daemon, God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit, and ghost, life, spirit and mind.

Here, pneuma clearly means blowing wind. And the wind, "blows where it wishes." Back to freedom again.

Didn’t realize this convo would be so long winded- can we move to a different thread?

Drake · 08-20-2018, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Didn’t realize this convo would be so long winded- can we move to a different thread?

Not necessary on my side. I'm done.... didn't know if Brother awareness had a deeper insight and thought it might be relevant.

thanks
Drake

byHismercy · 08-20-2018, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Didn’t realize this convo would be so long winded- can we move to a different thread?

It can be moved wherever is appropriate...It took me forever to figure out how to post my OP....sorry it ended up where it did. I am still getting familiar with the forum. Thank you everybody for this fellowship! Blessing me....

leastofthese · 08-20-2018, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

It can be moved wherever is appropriate...It took me forever to figure out how to post my OP....sorry it ended up where it did. I am still getting familiar with the forum. Thank you everybody for this fellowship! Blessing me....

Hey BHM, sorry... I was referring to the wind comments - thus my attempt at a “wind” pun. Thanks for your OP. It sounds like Drake is done.

Anyone the has spent time with Mormons and those within the Witness Lee churches know that there are many similarities. Now there is yet another.