The Mormon Church is "The Church"?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Right on points bro Ohio.

When Mel Porter told me that I had to take his personality as my own, the whole point, that I had to agree to without questioning, was that, Lee was the one and only apostle on the earth, I said, "Well brother Mel, that looks like the Roman Catholic Church to me, with Lee as our Pope."

My response to finding that out was similar, Awareness.....when I heard the MOTA junk, and the one publication junk, I was revulsed instantly and thoroughly....I know it was the Holy Spirit within....elevation of this man Lee....this makes me angry.....how dare they glorify Lee.....I am just sick of the silent, unspoken reverence for a man and his 'way'....that was it for me.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I could see all the problems and faults of the RCC system, and the glaring missteps of the SDA church, but was so blind to 'my' cult....why? How could I not see what I now see?

The LC resembles the RCC and LDS in that The Church is their end-all and be-all. At least Luther and Wesley got that right - salvation is through faith in the name of Jesus Christ, not loyalty to the Hive.

Christianity's not the problem or the solution. Sin is the problem and believing in the name of Jesus is the solution.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Christianity's not the problem or the solution.

Excellent point.

There is no perfect, orthodox, catholic, reformed, restored, or recovered church.

Even if the Spirit pours out heavenly blessing upon your congregation, there is no guarantee that it will continue more than a few years -- 25 years max -- church history proves that, even for the Apostles.

Look at how much diversity -- both good and bad -- in the seven apocalyptic churches. Yet there was no call by the Spirit of God for the perfect church!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

The LC resembles the RCC and LDS in that The Church is their end-all and be-all. At least Luther and Wesley got that right - salvation is through faith in the name of Jesus Christ, not loyalty to the Hive.

Christianity's not the problem or the solution. Sin is the problem and believing in the name of Jesus is the solution.

I agree, Aron. The building is becoming an idol. The builder is greater than the building....I will try to find the scripture...but to forsake the love for 'the way'....not Christ our way, but Lees' way....this is idolizing the church I think. An elevation of the building over the Builder....this is upside down!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

The LC resembles the RCC and LDS in that The Church is their end-all and be-all. At least Luther and Wesley got that right - salvation is through faith in the name of Jesus Christ, not loyalty to the Hive.

Christianity's not the problem or the solution. Sin is the problem and believing in the name of Jesus is the solution.

That's right, Aron....cut right through the baloney....believing in the name of Jesus is the solution....the Father doesn't put any other qualifiers on us....but imputes righteousness on us for our trust in His beloved Son....additions by the LC or anyone else are shackles and chains.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

That's right, Aron....cut right through the baloney....believing in the name of Jesus is the solution....the Father doesn't put any other qualifiers on us....but imputes righteousness on us for our trust in His beloved Son....additions by the LC or anyone else are shackles and chains.

byHismercy,

How about the additions of the writer of Hebrews?

Consider this....

"For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fervor of fire, which is to consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three witnesses. By how much do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay"; and again "The Lord will judge His people". It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:29-31

This word, is aimed at correcting any thought or idea that God is so merciful, and that His words of grace so cover His chosen, that while the unbelievers will suffer the punishment of His indignation, they who had been sealed with His Spirit's seal will somehow escape.

Baloney?

This word is spoken to believers byHismercy. It is not an easy word, not a comfortable word, not a comforting word, but it is His word and we cannot ignore it.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

byHismercy,

How about the additions of the writer of Hebrews?

Consider this....

"For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fervor of fire, which is to consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three witnesses. By how much do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay"; and again "The Lord will judge His people". It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:29-31

This word, is aimed at correcting any thought or idea that God is so merciful, and that His words of grace so cover His chosen, that while the unbelievers will suffer the punishment of His indignation, they who had been sealed with His Spirit's seal will somehow escape.

Baloney?

This word is spoken to believers byHismercy. It is not an easy word, not a comfortable word, not a comforting word, but it is His word and we cannot ignore it.

Drake

The word you quoted says, "if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth". . . why did Witness Lee dun the flock for cash to fund his son Timothy's business (Daystar), even after knowing that this had already caused so much harm already (Taiwan & Seattle World's Fair 1962)? Why did he let Son Philip remain in a position of responsibility even after knowing this had caused much stumbling to those for whom Christ died?

Why did Lee continue in his behaviours after causing so much harm, and why do LSM operatives continue in whitewashing his criminal deeds (i.e. money-laundering)? Where's the "fearful expectation of judgment" evidenced, o indignant one? And then you try to intimidate others?? I'm more worried about facing the Lord if I don't say something.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Where's the "fearful expectation of judgment" evidenced, o indignant one? And then you try to intimidate others?? I'm more worried about facing the Lord if I don't say something.

"o Indignant one"?

Better read those verses again aron and pay close attention to who is described there as indignant..... and then have a closer read of Matthew 5:22 and talk to the Lord to resolve the on-going problem you have with certain brothers... while you are still on the way... before its too late and you have to meet the Lord at His BEMA in your present condition.

Now, awareness got us going on the wind track.... and LofT is trying to bring it back... what do you have to share about the topic of this thread?

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Better read those verses again aron and pay close attention to who is described there as indignant..... and then have a closer read of Matthew 5:22 and talk to the Lord to resolve the on-going problem you have with certain brothers... while you are still on the way... before its too late and you have to meet the Lord at His BEMA in your present condition.

My present condition is to point out the discrepancy between the Bible and the LC of Nee and Lee. I have pointed them out, and somehow this is construed as an offense against God. Rather I think the offense is to keep one's mouth shut, yet knowing of the problems. Witness Lee wanted us to forgive his messy kitchen yet he continually pointed out deficiencies in others.

Either God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day or no. Either you believe or no. This is the gospel message. Not the "recovered church".

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

byHismercy,

How about the additions of the writer of Hebrews?

Consider this....

"For when we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fervor of fire, which is to consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three witnesses. By how much do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay"; and again "The Lord will judge His people". It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:29-31

This word, is aimed at correcting any thought or idea that God is so merciful, and that His words of grace so cover His chosen, that while the unbelievers will suffer the punishment of His indignation, they who had been sealed with His Spirit's seal will somehow escape.

Baloney?

This word is spoken to believers byHismercy. It is not an easy word, not a comfortable word, not a comforting word, but it is His word and we cannot ignore it.

Drake

Drake, Gods' word is living and operative in those who believe, Jesus the Christ is the Word of God Himself, and everything in the word is breathed out by the living God, we will live by the word.....I know I wasn't referring to His word when I used the word baloney, but I want you and everyone else to know also. I was referring to doctrine of devils that come out of Lees' ministry. It's a bunch of baloney.

Are you possibly equating Lees' doctrines with Gods' word?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Drake, Gods' word is living and operative in those who believe, Jesus the Christ is the Word of God Himself, and everything in the word is breathed out by the living God, we will live by the word.....I know I wasn't referring to His word when I used the word baloney, but I want you and everyone else to know also. I was referring to doctrine of devils that come out of Lees' ministry. It's a bunch of baloney.

Are you possibly equating Lees' doctrines with Gods' word?

Bhm,

You appeared to suggest that any teaching about punishment of the believer was baloney, shackles, and chains. You said that God imputs righteousness on us for our trust in His Son.... and you said that the Father places no further qualifiers on us

I provided you a scripture that shows clearly God will judge and punish even believers... that the righteousness through our belief in His Son does not eliminate the judgement in Hebrews or Matthew 5:22.

Please consider those verses in the context of your beliefs above. I think you will find the two are incompatible.

Do not be swayed by voices in this forum that slander brothers in a very personal way and then excuse the consequences by teaching that God will overlook that sin because they believed in the Son. Scripture shows otherwise.

Drake

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Drake

Bhm,

You appeared to suggest that any teaching about punishment of the believer was baloney, shackles, and chains.

Drake

Drake, that never happened. I do not recall reading anything in this thread regarding punishment of the believer. I never referred to punishment of the believer. I am sorry you misunderstood me. Maybe the smoke got in your eyes?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

My response to finding that out was similar, Awareness.....when I heard the MOTA junk, and the one publication junk, I was revulsed instantly and thoroughly....I know it was the Holy Spirit within....elevation of this man Lee....this makes me angry.....how dare they glorify Lee.....I am just sick of the silent, unspoken reverence for a man and his 'way'....that was it for me.

It was indeed by his mercy ...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

My response to finding that out was similar, Awareness.....when I heard the MOTA junk, and the one publication junk, I was revulsed instantly and thoroughly....I know it was the Holy Spirit within....elevation of this man Lee....this makes me angry.....how dare they glorify Lee.....I am just sick of the silent, unspoken reverence for a man and his 'way'....that was it for me.

Which explains how your friend can love you one day, and then suddenly abandon you the next -- all because you can't haul your family 30 miles to their meeting.

I would bet that your friend was abruptly instructed by her "elder" not to invest her time in you or your children -- "not good material for their building."

[awareness]

To those in "The Church," whether the Mormon "The Church," The Recovery "The Church," or actually, all the other "The Churches," I have this to say :

Ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. Be not afraid to be as the wind. - John 8:32 & 3:8

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

To those in "The Church," whether the Mormon "The Church," The Recovery "The Church," or actually, all the other "The Churches," I have this to say :

Ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. Be not afraid to be as the wind. - John 8:32 & 3:8

awareness,

I get the truth part... but the wind part appears to be a misappropriation of 3:8.

What do you mean exactly and how does this verse add validation to your meaning?

Drake

[awareness]

Thanks for asking. I think this sums it up :

The wind blows where it wishes . . . So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for asking. I think this sums it up :

The wind blows where it wishes . . . So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

I see.... but how to you apply its meaning? I'm not making the connection.

A description of a regenerated person born of the Spirit is not a call "to be as the wind".

Please elaborate what you are trying to say in layman's terms.

Thanks
Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

I see.... but how to you apply its meaning? I'm not making the connection.

A description of a regenerated person born of the Spirit is not a call "to be as the wind".

Please elaborate what you are trying to say in layman's terms.

Thanks
Drake

I guess that verse can be confusing. Is a person born of the Spirit like the wind? Jesus says the wind blows where it wishes? Is that what he means about the person born of the Spirit?

If we add truth shall set you free, it certainly sounds like it.

At any rate, I doubt it means to be joined to "The Church," Mormonism, Local-Churchism, or otherwise.

That aside, what do you think the verse means?

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

To those in "The Church," whether the Mormon "The Church," The Recovery "The Church," or actually, all the other "The Churches," I have this to say :

Ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. Be not afraid to be as the wind. - John 8:32 & 3:8

John 1 tells us, "The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God" I was touched by "believe into his name". We believe into his name, and have the right to become children of God. Either this is true, or not. I believe it is true.

Again in Acts 3, Peter and John were in the temple at the third hour prayer, and Peter spoke to the astonished crowd, "By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see."

Again we have faith in the name of Jesus. There's power in the name, and the faith in this name appropriates the power. We have the power to live, as he lived; the power to heal, to forgive, to encourage, to teach, to bless, and the right to become God's children. Now, does the Bible speak of other things? Of course. But if you ask me what is truth, I would say this kind of word comes awfully close. If there's any objective reality available for appropriation, it's something like this: believe into the name of Jesus Christ and be saved.

The rest of it, called "the central lane of the divine economy" or "the Church" or "the body" or "the ministry of the age" or "God's current speaking" or some special "recovered truth" is foofaraw. The subtle one beguiled Eve and he's been beguiling ever since. 2 Cor 11 "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ."

There is nothing else except Jesus Christ, crucified and raised to glory. In the simplicity of truth, there is safety. Beware of those offering special, proprietary teachings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The rest of it, called "the central lane of the divine economy" or "the Church" or "the body" or "the ministry of the age" or "God's current speaking" or some special "recovered truth" is foofaraw. The subtle one beguiled Eve and he's been beguiling ever since. 2 Cor 11 "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ."

There is nothing else except Jesus Christ, crucified and raised to glory. In the simplicity of truth, there is safety. Beware of those offering special, proprietary teachings.

Foofaraw! Yeah! You tell them.

Where do you get these words?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Beware of those offering special, proprietary teachings.

Great post aron.

I remember when preaching the gospel -- which was really preaching the local church life -- and when talking with visitors, stumbling in the conversation with the specific LC nomenclature. We not only had "proprietary teachings," but, "proprietary nomenclature." Part of bringing in a newbie was explaining the inside terminology. Once they understood that, it was hoped, they'll have "The Vision."

In the LSM/Recovery branded local churches -- "The Vision" -- has a very strong gravitational pull, circling Witness Lee. A orbit that can be very hard to pull out of.

[awareness]

Gosh! This thread is busy.

Originally Posted by Drake

This word is spoken to believers byHismercy. It is not an easy word, not a comfortable word, not a comforting word, but it is His word and we cannot ignore it.

Bro Drake, who knows the mind of God? We can walk away from God. -- I had to after leaving the local church -- but that doesn't mean God walks away from us. I don't care what you think Hebrews means. I know differently.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Gosh! This thread is busy.


Bro Drake, who knows the mind of God? We can walk away from God. -- I had to after leaving the local church -- but that doesn't mean God walks away from us. I don't care what you think Hebrews means. I know differently.

Well, ok. What is the meaning of those verses in Hebrews? What is “worse punishment “ and why is it worse?

Be happy to hear you out ....since you know differently.

Drake