Outer Darkness?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I numbered the post in question. Let the reader decide if I misrepresented your statement.

For all of your indignation you mount no defence. If you can show an extensive paper trail of scripture commentary going back thru Clement of Alexandria and Origen we might think differently. Otherwise we conclude that this "thousand years of torment" is a recent idea, designed to paper over the perceived gap between OSAS Calvinism and Arminianism.

Yes, let the reader decide if you have represented my views accurately. As the one who you are quoting I am making it clear you are not and you are fabricating., putting words in my mouth, etc.

I’m not indignant, but you don’t get to define what I believe or or teach. If you misunderstand I’m always happy to clarify., if you purposefully put words in my mouth then I will object. Substantiate your argument on the facts, not on selective references, not on slices and dices, and not on fabrications about what I “admitted”. Okay?

Now, to the last part of your post I disagree. l do not need to trace a paper trail back through history to the church fathers to validate the fact of outer darkness.. They are a good reference as to what the church in the first few hundred years taught but their teachings are not the authority of the Bible. We can use them as a touch point to understand how the early Church viewed a certain matter in the scriptures but they do not replace the scriptures.

Rather, we have the Bible.. in there are parables about outer darkness and the reason servants are cast there. If you disagree with Brother Lee’s explanation, which is similar to mine, then have a go at one yourself.

Let hear it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

l do not need to trace a paper trail back through history to the church fathers to validate the fact of outer darkness.. They are a good reference as to what the church in the first few hundred years taught but their teachings are not the authority of the Bible. We can use them as a touch point to understand how the early Church viewed a certain matter in the scriptures but they do not replace the scriptures.

Rather, we have the Bible.. in there are parables about outer darkness and the reason servants are cast there.

Now ... we are getting somewhere!

The Bible is now our sole definitive source!

That's what this forum has been saying for years. And now you agree related to the topic of "outer darkness." That's a good start. How about concerning Lee's "man becomes God" high-peak teachings? Can we also stick to the Bible with those?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Rather, we have the Bible.. in there are parables about outer darkness and the reason servants are cast there. If you disagree with Brother Lee’s explanation, which is similar to mine, then have a go at one yourself.

Here is truth: God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day. It's clearly and repeatedly presented in scripture by multiple witnesses. Remember, many questions that the disciples asked Jesus, were met with, "What is that to you? Follow me". Answers were not given.

Asking me to replace Lee's speculative imagery with my own? Nah, I'll stick to the revealed scriptural truth.

StG asked, "Where in scripture do we see 'defeated believers' going into outer darkness for 1,000 years?" No answer has been given.

Again, "Do not be many teachers" - in pointing out the lacks, which are many, of your supposed oracle, doesn't mean that we are angling for his 'position'; you know, "seer of the divine revelation" &c. . . rather that we are rejecting his claims as presenting a priori objective truth. Unless of course, you or someone can show their substance. In the meantime, don't conflate the two ideas and project motives onto others.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Drake and Evancelical have shown you the truth of Witness Lee, we can learn from this speaker who recovered this truth. Many believers miss this.

This is the kind of uncritical and thoughtless response that's endemic in the LC - that Witness Lee spoke "recovered truth". How can you show that this "truth" even existed in the first century? It was apparently "recovered" out of thin air in the 19th or 20th centuries!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Here is truth: God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day. It's clearly and repeatedly presented in scripture by multiple witnesses. Remember, many questions that the disciples asked Jesus, were met with, "What is that to you? Follow me". Answers were not given.

Asking me to replace Lee's speculative imagery with my own? Nah, I'll stick to the revealed scriptural truth.!

Aron,

If your “truth” includes the parables that mention judgment and the outer darkness then please provide an explanation about what they mean. The consequences are serious according to those parables.

If you don’t know and have no explanation that is okay... say that.... but please don’t pretend that you know but refuse to answer because Jesus said ONCE (not to many questions as you assert) to Peter “ what is that to you.”. That has nothing to do with this topic.

What Jesus did say is the mysteries of the kingdom where given to His followers to know:

“He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” Matt 13:11

So, feel free to provide your own explanation..... if you have one.

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron,

If your “truth” includes the parables that mention judgment and the outer darkness then please provide an explanation about what they mean. The consequences are serious according to those parables.

If you don’t know and have no explanation that is okay... say that.... but please don’t pretend that you know but refuse to answer because Jesus said ONCE (not to many questions as you assert) to Peter “ what is that to you.”. That has nothing to do with this topic.

I've already explained and affirmed the principle of judgment, mentioned in 1 Cor 10 and Heb 3, as reinforcing the parables of Jesus as pertaining to believers. But the question on this thread has been, where does this say, "For 1,000 years"?

Still no answer. The best we can get is "it's inferred" by one recent Bible expositor. And this is to be our truth?

And Jesus only said "none of your business" only once? What about Acts 1:7. My translation says, "it is not for you to know"

Now, judgment for unfaithful (christian) servants may indeed be for 1,000 years. But then again it may not. Scripture doesn't say.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

I've already explained and affirmed the principle of judgment, mentioned in 1 Cor 10 and Heb 3, as reinforcing the parables of Jesus as pertaining to believers. But the question on this thread has been, where does this say, "For 1,000 years"?

Still no answer. The best we can get is "it's inferred" by one recent Bible expositor. And this is to be our truth?

And Jesus only said "none of your business" only once? What about Acts 1:7. My translation says, "it is not for you to know"

Now, judgment for unfaithful (christian) servants may indeed be for 1,000 years. But then again it may not. Scripture doesn't say.

Aron, you admitted that the punishment cited in the parables was “stark and sober”... then you dismissed Brother Nees explanation... and offered none of your own.

Furthermore, this thread is about the outer darkness...and to StGs question about the duration of the punishment he has received two explanations... one from me on coming out after the “last farthing” has been paid and Evangelicals on the severity... number of lashes. Both of those explanations are based on the same assumption that there is an outer darkness, it happens during the 1000 millennial reign of Christ, it is a place of punishment to the believers who do not overcome, the Lord will make the judgement, and it will last no longer than the end of the 1000 millennial reign of Christ.

If not during the millennial reign of Christ, then when does the outer darkness occur? Do share.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

If not during the millennial reign of Christ, then when does the outer darkness occur?

Have you not read scripture? Read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Does this occur in the millennial reign of Christ? "In Hades he was in torment"; Luke 16:23. And "You are in agony"; Luke 16:25. When did this occur?

And who says the "many lashes" and "few lashes" (Luke 12) have to occur in the millennial kingdom, and/or last the duration? We simply don't know. Why go beyond scripture? Why the dogma based on personal interpretation? Is that the basis for open and mutually profitable fellowship, or is that going to convict the unbelievers? Or, rather is it the basis of control and manipulation of believers? Seems the latter, to me. And it fits with what we know of the LSM - many witnesses have attested to this group's ways.

It's enough to make the point that we're responsible. It's a point worth making. Why clutter teaching with speculation? It isn't profitable, unless you want control.

The Bible does talk of "overcomers". But in the hypersubjective world of the LC a word means whatever the Guru wants it to mean today. Same as otherwise ordinary words like "proper", and being "vital", and "enjoyment" . . . initially it seems like a normal word, even tied to a verse or two, but when you try to grab hold, it's tied to nothing at all, and is a completely subjective interpretation from "God's oracle".

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Have you not read scripture? Read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Does this occur in the millennial reign of Christ? "In Hades he was in torment"; Luke 16:23. And "You are in agony"; Luke 16:25. When did this occur?.

First, that is not a parable as you say.... its important to know the difference else you will continue to misapply the scripture. No wonder you toss your hands up and declare "we simply don't know". I'm not doubting that you don't know... but that does not mean it is not knowable.... Let's have a closer look.

This is not a future event in the millennial reign... this is an actual occurrence at that time, and the Lord knew of it, and it occurred, apparently, before the Lord rose from the dead as Abraham indicated (v30-31). Therefore, what we know from this case is that Hades, the abode of the dead, has two parts... the pleasant part in the "bosom of Abraham", a pleasant place for His saved people like Abraham, Lazarus, and the saved saints .... and then there is a section of torment for that rich man and all the perished sinners. That is plain from the text. There is no reading into it, no need to read into it, and certainly not to be confounded with the outer darkness at the time of the millennial reign of Christ.

For a brief moment I thought that is where you were going with it.... a flash of insight...a rational comparison.... but alas, rather than complete the task, you went off on your paranoid talking points about "control and manipulation" digging in head first. Aron, either it is truth or not... like eternal torment in the lake of fire. People may not want to hear about an eternity in lake of fire, and some preachers may overuse it to keep rowdy whipper snappers like young Harold in line... but that does not change the fact that there is a lake of fire and a place of eternal torment.

At any point you should feel free to explain from the scriptures what the outer darkness is, when it occurs, and any other particulars as we have offered already. No pressure aron... take your time....I accept your self-assessment.

Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

Furthermore, this thread is about the outer darkness...and to StGs question about the duration of the punishment he has received two explanations... one from me on coming out after the “last farthing” has been paid and Evangelicals on the severity... number of lashes. Both of those explanations are based on the same assumption that *(1) there is an outer darkness, (2) it happens during the 1000 millennial reign of Christ, (3) it is a place of punishment to the believers who do not overcome, (4) the Lord will make the judgement, and (5) it will last no longer than the end of the 1000 millennial reign of Christ.

If not during the millennial reign of Christ, then when does the outer darkness occur? Do share.

Drake

(*numbers added by ALB)

Drake,

That's quite a number of assumptions. Can you share with us how did your validate each of them, please?

Well, may be except (1) which was explicitly mentioned in Matthew and (4) which I believe we all agree.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Drake,

That's quite a number of assumptions. Can you share with us how did your validate each of them, please?

Well, may be except (1) which was explicitly mentioned in Matthew and (4) which I believe we all agree.

Hi alb,

I have provided my view on those points. Have a look at what I already stated, provide your point of view, and if there is something to discuss we can pick it up from there.

Thanks
Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Rather, we have the Bible.. in there are parables about outer darkness and the reason servants are cast there. If you disagree with Brother Lee’s explanation, which is similar to mine, then have a go at one yourself.

Let hear it.

Drake

Who needs Lee to tell us about Gods' punishments and rewards? They're in the Bible. Jesus told us about them.