Outer Darkness?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

It's a parable. That we are not "given to know," according to Matt 13:11. But it's obvious that Jesus is speaking in imagery. .

Awareness,

Matt 13:11 is not about the Lords followers who have the Spirit of God to guide them into all truth (John 16:13). No Christian should fit the description of v 11, 13-15.... but maybe you are right....perhaps some do.

At the end of the chapter you quoted He explains and applies the imagery to one of the parables He just told...so now we know too about the meaning of that parable specifically and the nature of parables and their interpretation generally. Furthermore, we have the Spirit now to guide us and we have the completed Bible. So we have to do due diligence to cut straight the word of God and allow the Lord to shine in us and guide us. We want to be those who have eyes to see and ears to hear... that of course includes the parables and their interpretation (v16).

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Matt 13:11 is not about the Lords followers who have the Spirit of God to guide them into all truth (John 16:13). No Christian should fit the description of v 11, 13-15.... but maybe you are right....perhaps some do.

Drake

Since I am more familiar with Christians in the LC's, I would say that many of them "fit the description" which Jesus spoke of here in Matthew 13.11-15.

The primary reason is pride. Sadly, the ministry of Witness Lee was a ministry of condemnation (regularly condemning all Christians outside the LCM) which filled his listeners with the arrogant pride of elitism (teaching they are the Lord's best) and exclusivism (teaching no one else has what they have.)

Those in the LCM are like those stuck in Judaism during Jesus' day -- they listen to their leaders' interpretation of God's word rather than directly listening what God is speaking in His word.

[Sons to Glory!]

So where can we look to see the Unfaithful spending a thousand years in outer Darkness?

EDIT UPDATE: My point in asking this is that I heard the "punishment for non-transformed believers is a thousand years in outer darkness to ripened" many times. Where did this come from?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So where can we look to see the Unfaithful spending a thousand years in outer Darkness?

EDIT UPDATE: My point in asking this is that I heard the "punishment for non-transformed believers is a thousand years in outer darkness to ripened" many times. Where did this come from?

StG,

It comes from the correlation between parables, such as those we are discussing, and events that we know will occur, such as the judgement seat of Christ, His second coming, His righteous nature to reward and punish, the millennial reign of Christ.....in short, the mysteries of the kingdom.

Have been trying to answer your question, see #99, but you seem to be missing the purpose of the Lords use of parables as described above.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

It comes from the correlation between parables, such as those we are discussing, and events that we know will occur, such as the judgement seat of Christ, His second coming, His righteous nature to reward and punish, the millennial reign of Christ.....in short, the mysteries of the kingdom.

Have been trying to answer your question, see #99, but you seem to be missing the purpose of the Lords use of parables as described above.

Drake

Thanks. Yes, I saw that and the follow-on discussion. My question has to do with the time: Why is it the full thousand years, or is it a portion of time - 5 minutes or 500 years? Where specifically do we get the time factor and the teaching I heard much about, that it is 1,000 years?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. Yes, I saw that and the follow-on discussion. My question has to do with the time: Why is it the full thousand years, or is it a portion of time - 5 minutes or 500 years? Where specifically do we get the time factor and the teaching I heard much about, that it is 1,000 years?

Right Sons. The 3 references to outer darkness doesn't specify the sentence. It may only be like a little timeout, to think about what you've done. Surely you're not in there long enough to gnash your teeth completely away.

It's imagery & allegory. The outer darkness is not a real physical place.

But it's a great tool for cults to use for fear-mongering.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Right Sons. The 3 references to outer darkness doesn't specify the sentence. It may only be like a little timeout, to think about what you've done. Surely you're not in there long enough to gnash your teeth completely away.

It's imagery & allegory. The outer darkness is not a real physical place

A parable shares a law, reality, or a truth with something else... in this case a matter in the spiritual realm.... don't say outer darkness is not a real physical place or that the suffering is not to such a degree that you will gnash your teeth.

Seems to me brother awareness that you may be guilty of dumbing down the scriptures.. parables are depictions of something very real. Excuse me if I am misreading your characterization of those matters. They are to be taken very seriously.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. Yes, I saw that and the follow-on discussion. My question has to do with the time: Why is it the full thousand years, or is it a portion of time - 5 minutes or 500 years? Where specifically do we get the time factor and the teaching I heard much about, that it is 1,000 years?

Well StG, the 1000 years is in reference to the Millennial reign of Christ... that age is also known as the kingdom age... it commences with the Lord's second coming and it ends at the commencement of eternity future. As the kingdom age is all about ruling and reigning with Christ on earth and not just about being forgiven and saved from eternal perdition in eternity future then the criterion for entering the kingdom is a higher standard. For example, the parable we were discussing specifically mentions a penalty in "jail" for refusing to forgive. The Lord forgave you as a debtor yet you refuse to forgive other debtors... into the "jail" you rascal!

Some parables appear to indicate that the time out in outer darkness is variable.... that is what we were discussing ..... in reference to the "jail"... where and when is it and what is required to come out of it.

The gospel of the kingdom reconciles the matter of faith, works, reward, eternal salvation. etc. All born-again Christians are saved eternally but not all are counted worthy to rule and reign with Christ during the 1000 year reign on earth... yet at least no later than the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ all will be pure, refined, and part of the New Jerusalem.. every last farthing will have been paid to reference another parable. Some will be counted worthy to rule and reign with Christ for the entire 1000 years as the reward to the overcomer in Revelation 2:26-28 states plainly. No parable there just plain talk.

Some Christians I grew up with lived like the devil.. yet they held that they were eternally saved and that there were no further consequences. Yet other Christians I met with believed that you might be saved in the morning but by evening you could have fallen out of grace because you drank, cussed, or committed some other sin. Both points of view lack the complete revelation of scripture... We are eternally saved by God's grace through the blood of Christ....but there are consequences for our behavior after becoming a christian. We do not lose our eternal salvation but we may lose the reward of the kingdom. It is the most balanced and scriptural point of view that brings all those parts together. I've yet to hear an alternative point of view that reconciles all of scripture related to that ... especially from those who argue against it. Having no explanation of their own they simply remain in unbelief apparently willing to jettison those scriptures that they cannot or refuse to understand. Its also probably fair to say that some that discard the kingdom teachings may have a problem they cannot shake... so as a christian they cannot live in contradiction to scripture ....therefore they convince themselves to dismiss it.. or bury it.... like the parable about forgiveness.

Drake

What about the "raptured or martyred" talk we used to hear?

And where does that leave Witness Lee for 1,000 years?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. Yes, I saw that and the follow-on discussion. My question has to do with the time: Why is it the full thousand years, or is it a portion of time - 5 minutes or 500 years? Where specifically do we get the time factor and the teaching I heard much about, that it is 1,000 years?

I think the basis is on the reference to the judgement seat of Christ and the Great White Throne judgement. Since the time frame between the two is taken to be 1,000 years.

Interestingly, I think the account of the false prophet is instructive. The standard theology is that at the end of this age the believers are judged and the overcomers enter into the joy of their Lord for the thousand year millennial reign. Then at the end of that age the Great White throne judgement will sort out both believers and unbelievers. It is taught that it is at this judgement that some are sent to the Lake of Fire. However, the false prophet is already in the lake of fire prior to the Great White Throne judgement. Obviously you are free to hypothesize why this is, my best guess is that the False prophet, based on Matt 7, wanted to be judged at the judgement seat of Christ thinking he was a believer, the Lord accommodated him, and sent him to the Lake of Fire 1,000 years early.

What I find interesting is that Matt 18 refers to all 3 cases, the overcomers (who is greatest in the kingdom?), outer darkness (debtors prison) and the false prophet (those that stumble the least in the kingdom).

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So where can we look to see the Unfaithful spending a thousand years in outer Darkness?

EDIT UPDATE: My point in asking this is that I heard the "punishment for non-transformed believers is a thousand years in outer darkness to ripened" many times. Where did this come from?

Does this answer your question? The verses below in conjunction with Rev 20. Maybe I'm missing more, I'm sure someone on this forum knows. Lee's words below:

"At harvest time in a field there are surely the firstfruits, the harvest, and the remainder or the gleanings. The rapture of a small number of mature saints will occur before the tribulation. The majority will be raptured during the tribulation because they need the tribulation to cause them to mature. Finally, the last of the crop will be harvested after the tribulation. The harvest of the crop is not in chapters 7 or 8 of Revelation but in chapter 14. This means that it occurs in the midst of the tribulation."

"According to all these verses, we can see that the rapture of the believers will not be accomplished all at one time but rather during a period of about seven years. When will you be raptured during that seven-year period? It depends on the degree of your maturity. If in the Lord’s eyes you are mature and ripe, surely He will take you away before the tribulation begins. This is the way the Lord will use to transfer the reality of the kingdom into the manifestation of the kingdom. In other words, we all must be matured. If we desire to be matured, we must take Christ in again and again, eating of Him, and allowing Him to saturate us all the time. This is the kingdom life that is described and defined in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, a life that is always taking Christ as its nourishment. It is always being saturated, occupied, and possessed by Christ. This is the reality of the kingdom. This is real maturity. If this is our case, when the Lord Jesus comes back, we will be taken as the firstfruits. This means that we will be chosen and selected by Him to be in His army (Rev. 17:14; 19:11-15). The fighting army of the Lord Jesus is composed of the overcoming saints who are living in the reality of the kingdom. They are living in the reality of the kingdom; they will become the fighting army, and after the fighting, they will be the manifestation of the kingdom. As His army they will come with the Lord Jesus to destroy the Antichrist and his army. Then the nations of the earth will become the kingdom of Christ, and the army composed of all the overcoming saints will become co-kings with Him to rule over the earth. They will be transferred into the manifestation of the kingdom during the millennium."

"What then will happen to all the defeated Christians? They will have no share in reigning as co-kings with Christ during the millennium. Where shall they be? While we do not know the details, the principle is clear. When the Lord Jesus returns, the false believers will be bound into bundles and cast into the fire, terminating all the tares in Christianity. The overcoming ones will be chosen to fight the battle with the Lord to recover the earth for the Lord’s reigning. They will be the co-kings with Christ in the manifestation of the kingdom. The defeated Christians will be neither burned up nor enter into the kingdom to reign with Christ. According to Matthew 22:13 and 25:30, these will be cast into the outer darkness where there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

In summary, today’s Christendom is composed of both false Christians and real Christians. The false Christians are the outward appearance of the kingdom. Among the real Christians, a few are the overcoming ones, and most are the defeated ones. When the Lord Jesus returns, He will first terminate the false Christians, burning up all the false Christians, the tares. Then He will take up all the real ones into the air according to their maturity. At His judgment seat in the air, He will exercise His judgment over all the real Christians to decide who will be selected and chosen. Those will be the overcomers who will return to the earth and fight against the rebellious army of Antichrist. After defeating Antichrist and his army, the overcomers will be Christ’s co-kings, reigning with Him in His kingdom on the earth. That will be the manifestation of the kingdom. That also will be the transfer of the reality of the kingdom into the manifestation of the kingdom. Only the overcomers, those who are living in the reality of the kingdom of the heavens today, will have a share in its manifestation. The manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens will be a reward or prize given to the overcomers."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Does this answer your question? The verses below in conjunction with Rev 20. Maybe I'm missing more, I'm sure someone on this forum knows. Lee's words below:

Thanks, but I think I already know Lee's teaching on this pretty well. It's just that I like going back to the word with these concepts to see if there really is a firm and accurate grounding, or whether it was just someone's interpretation.

These days I'd truly rather have just two words of revelation directly from the Lord and His word, than 20 volumes of someone else's thinking on a subject!

Don't get me wrong, I don't just immediately dismiss WL's teaching, and will refer to them from time to time, but I endeavor to get rid of any dirty bathwater (and save the baby). So please share verses, and not WL quotes.

[Evangelical]

"Kingdom exclusion" doctrine teaches that unfaithful believers will not participate in the kingdom but be restored at a later time. There are quite a few preachers who teach kingdom exclusion in one form or another, if you look for it.

Why 1000 years? Since the kingdom reign of Christ lasts for 1000 years on earth, it is logical that exclusion from the kingdom will last for the same time period - 1000 years.

There are some questions that remain:

(1) Do unfaithful believers get excluded from the kingdom, or not?
If yes, is it temporary or permanent? If permanent, then this is equivalent to believers losing their salvation, and casts doubt on the doctrine of eternal security. If temporary, then it must be for a certain time period, and 1000 years seems as good a guess as any.

(2) If no, then unfaithful believers enjoy the kingdom with the faithful?

This seems unlikely, given that the kingdom is a reward, and Jesus described unfaithful believers as not receiving a reward, but punishment.


There are two many sources of confusion in Christianity today about these topics :

a) Understanding what is the kingdom? Many believers interpret the kingdom as equal to heaven, and equate this topic with eternal salvation or damnation, and forget about Jesus's kingdom reign on Earth.

b) Understanding eternal security - many believers cannot distinguish between temporal punishment or loss, and eternal loss. This is partly coupled with a misunderstanding that believers remain disembodied spirits within heaven for eternity.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"Kingdom exclusion" doctrine teaches that unfaithful believers will not participate in the kingdom but be restored at a later time. There are quite a few preachers who teach kingdom exclusion in one form or another, if you look for it.

Why 1000 years? Since the kingdom reign of Christ lasts for 1000 years on earth, it is logical that exclusion from the kingdom will last for the same time period - 1000 years.

Is it in fact binary, that is, either all or nothing? Rather than telling us it sounds "logical that exclusion from the kingdom will last for . . . 1000 years," please tell us supporting scripture for that all-or-nothing concept.

I mean, much of this whole thing (i.e., Christian theology) doesn't sound logical - the Christian life itself is flat out impossible from man's perspective!

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"Kingdom exclusion" doctrine teaches that unfaithful believers will not participate in the kingdom but be restored at a later time. There are quite a few preachers who teach kingdom exclusion in one form or another, if you look for it.

From your understanding, what would happen to the dead unfaithful believers? When will they resurrect according to the bible?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So where can we look to see the Unfaithful spending a thousand years in outer Darkness? I heard the "punishment for non-transformed believers is a thousand years in outer darkness to ripened" many times. Where did this come from?

Witness Lee would say something like "The whole Bible shows us. . ." then make a pastiche out of a few disparate verses and there was our 'present truth'. In this case, he cobbled together the 1,000-year "millennial kingdom" of Revelation (see e.g., "they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" in 20:6) with gospel parables teaching responsibility and its consequences. But Jesus never spoke of a thousand-year prison in his parables, and John never wrote explicitly of a thousand-year prison (except for Satan) for "defeated believers" as a direct analog to his "wedding feast of the Lamb". This composite imagery was assembled by Lee.

In my case, I remember Lee in his spoken messages stressing to us the points "raptured or martyred". . . when I looked at the RecV verses in Revelation 20, on the 1000-year kingdom, it seemed to agree with this, and the footnotes were explicit and categorical as I remembered. I then checked the references in the footnotes in Revelation 20 - taking the reader to Revelation 12 (the man-child), Revelation 14, Revelation 15, and the commentaries seemed to concur - see post #171. (Drake says I put together a 'selective' reading but the verses were linked by RecV footnotes and cross-references, and thus were 'selected' by LSM! And all showed this "raptured or martyred" theme.)

Yet Lee himself was neither raptured nor martyred, and I publicly asked where this left him. He'd stressed to us that Nee had been martyred, and thus had his ticket punched. But what of Lee, I wondered?

Now, this question doesn't mean Lee was either wrong or right, but that he put together a personalised view. I think that he, like Darby and others before, was sure that he'd be raptured anon with his close acolytes and this would validate all his special claims. Now that he's buried, why should we uncritically submit ourselves to his personal theology? "But it's in the Bible!!" That's what the Jehovah's Witnesses say, and the Christian Scientists, and all the rest. I can put some verses together and make any claim I want. Why should Lee's claim, based on his own subjective pastiche, own anyone else's psyche?

It's fear, folks. He used fear to control, and manipulate, and coerce others. He set his son Timothy repeatedly into the church coffers (1962 Worlds Fair, then the Daystar Motor Home Corporation), and both walked away scot-free. Is this an overcomer? We know about his injection of other son Philip into church leadership, and Philip's subsequent and repeated encroachments. . . by his own yardstick Witness Lee failed. I don't think we should cow abjectly before his theology. Like it's objective and unquestionable 'truth'.

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery. The "1,000-year prison" teaching should not be received uncritically as if it were from God. Question it - challenge it - test it - prove it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by brotherx

If we today are so easily confused about the usage, and meaning, of a word like "ministry", then how much more so if we see something like "Peter's angel" in Acts 12, or "The Spirit not yet [given]" in John 7, or the imagery to the seven churches in Asia in Revs 2 & 3, or the Great Angel of the OT. To declare a word or phrase's meaning because it fits our preconceived notions, when we have almost no idea of the shared understandings, several thousand years ago, between the writer and readers, seems presumptuous.

Beware of teachers who confidently proclaim that they have the definitive understanding, and "this means that", simply because it fits their scheme which they peddle for fun and profit. It's a confidence game and they're selling themselves and their assurance, above any objective, realized "truth", including Jesus Christ Himself. If they can convince their hearer that they are sure, this reassures and calms (read: stupefies) the mark, who then takes shelter under their ministration, even if it has little bearing on the text at hand. Thus we hear, "Our brother" told us this, or that, so relax and assume that we now have reality firmly in our sights. Beware: it's a perilous journey, and these are the hidden reefs we were warned against.

When people peddle something like the "Thousand year prison" as a pillar in their own personal kingdom-building programme, beware. Prove all things.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

This composite imagery was assembled by Lee.

You say it so much better than I do.

Originally Posted by aron

It's fear, folks.

Fear with "Overcomer." Overcoming meant that we had to be more given. more committed, and more driven for "the ministry."

Overcomers are special. They aren't like the rest of the ordinary saints. They're the ones that are truest to Lee, like the Blended Brothers, the living example of what it means to be an Overcomer.

Then ... if you aren't going to be a overcomer, you risk outer darkness ... and then fear stepped up.

I see cultic methodologies going on?

[ABrotherinFaith]

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomes. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomes. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

There's nothing in the teachings that says overcoming is by our own efforts. That more reflects their lack of faith in the Lord's work and His ability, than anything Lee or Nee or the local churches actually teach.

For example, here are a few quotes from Lee and Nee showing that we cannot overcome by our own efforts:

But just as one cannot be saved through good works, one cannot overcome through good works.
~ Collected works of Nee, Overcoming Life

Do not try to overcome sin, nor to conquer your weakness , Life-Study of Genesis, Witness Lee

We may think that since the Lord has told us to overcome, we must therefore try to overcome, ......It does not mean this at all. ~ Witness Lee.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I have friends in the LC who have resigned themselves, because of this teaching, to never being overcomers. They literally told me, "we'll never be overcomers, but, oh well." It's almost a joke. They have no hope. That's the sad reality that people have when belief and faith in Jesus and what he accomplished isn't seen as enough.

Last week I heard the same thing from some LC family members. So casually they speak about "making up classes at summer school" referring to a thousand years of outer darkness.

WL used this teaching to subjugate all of his adherents. Firstly he constantly condemned the whole of the body of Christ -- none of them had a chance. Next, inside the LCM, we were constantly given the impression that only those in the leadership at LSM had a "chance."

But how can this be after we learn the real stories of corruption at LSM. Will God overlook their deception, slander, coverups, swindling, etc. etc. -- just because these folks used the "correct" name for their franchise "churches?" How does anyone believe that?

Look at brother Titus Chu in Cleveland -- condemned, banned, shamed, and quarantined by LSM -- yet I hear this 80 y.o. brother spends much of his time on mainland China teaching the saints there -- one of the reasons they banned him.

Do LC folks really expect the Lord Jesus will judge these "condemned" ministers the same way as Lee and the Blendeds at LSM have done?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

You say it so much better than I do.


Fear with "Overcomer." Overcoming meant that we had to be more given. more committed, and more driven for "the ministry."

Overcomers are special. They aren't like the rest of the ordinary saints. They're the ones that are truest to Lee, like the Blended Brothers, the living example of what it means to be an Overcomer.

Then ... if you aren't going to be a overcomer, you risk outer darkness ... and then fear stepped up.

I see cultic methodologies going on?

Nothing like this is taught in the local churches or by Nee or Lee and I have never heard of outer darkness being used as a weapon of fear. You have this perspective about overcomers because you are viewing them from the point of view your own degraded condition.

Rather than overcomers being someone special above and beyond a "normal Christian" - an overcomer is someone who is a normal Christian. Every believer is meant to be an overcomer.

In other words, it is not that the bar to be an overcomer is set too high above and beyond a normal or ordinary believer, it is that the bar to being an overcomer is set at 'normal' but it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition.

[Evangelical]

As much as some of you have tried to exaggerate the teachings about outer darkness and the supposed fear it brings - I think it pales in comparison to Christian teachings about hell and eternal torment, particularly those which do not believe in eternal security (and there are many of them). Youtube is full of them.

Some have alleged or implied that the outer darkness teaching is meant to keep people in the recovery. I find that unlikely given that the non-OSAS teachings are better suited for that.

The outer darkness teaching serves no purpose to the recovery other than being a way to reconcile Arminian and Calvinist teachings with a view towards unity. For this reason the teaching is unifying, not divisive. It lets the Calvinist believe that they will not lose their salvation, and it assures the Arminian that no crime will go unpunished.

[awareness]

EvanG, yer such a sweet heart.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Nothing like this is taught in the local churches or by Nee or Lee and I have never heard of outer darkness being used as a weapon of fear. You have this perspective about overcomers because you are viewing them from the point of view your own degraded condition.

Thanks for the belly laugh. I rest my case.

Originally Posted by E Man

Rather than overcomers being someone special above and beyond a "normal Christian" - an overcomer is someone who is a normal Christian. Every believer is meant to be an overcomer.

In other words, it is not that the bar to be an overcomer is set too high above and beyond a normal or ordinary believer, it is that the bar to being an overcomer is set at 'normal' but it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition.

If there's overcomer's there's undergoer's, or some such. Overcomer's are more given, undergoer's, not so much.

Your statement, "it might look high for someone who is in a very poor condition," proves my point.

Thanks for your good hearted reply bro Mr. E.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

(Drake says I put together a 'selective' reading

Yep.

Reminds of a nice young Muslim man I once talked to.

I was preaching the gospel to an Imam and some of his followers...... an intense encounter as you might imagine. After an hour or so, not sure exactly cuz time flies by when you’re having fun, and the screaming on their side subsided a few decibels a young man pulled me aside, handed me a KJV Bible, and challenged me to show him where it says “Jesus is God”. Several verses came to mind and as I started to thumb through to them he added “but you can only use the verses in RED”. He meant of course that He only wanted the proof from the actual quotes of Jesus as indicated by the red text in his Bible.

That is selective and that is what Aron is also doing.. pivoting his argument on “1000” or limiting it to the book of Revelation. Plugging his ears to the whole in favor of a part to support his argument. In so doing he is violating an important matter concerning the Word of God. He is breaking it. Jesus told the Jews they were doing this when He referred to Himself as the Son of God and He challenged them concerning their own teaching “gods” in Psalm 82. He said the scripture cannot be broken. Aron’s argument fails were he to allow Brother Lees teaching on the subject from whole Bible.... so he slices and dices the Word of God... breaking it.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

That is selective and that is what Aron is also doing.. pivoting his argument on “1000” or limiting it to the book of Revelation. Plugging his ears to the whole in favor of a part to support his argument. In so doing he is violating an important matter concerning the Word of God. He is breaking it. Jesus told the Jews they were doing this when He referred to Himself as the Son of God and He challenged them concerning their own teaching “gods” in Psalm 82. He said the scripture cannot be broken. Aron’s argument fails were he to allow Brother Lees teaching on the subject from whole Bible.... so he slices and dices the Word of God... breaking it.

Drake

I've read thousands of posts by aron, and have never seen this.

You, on the other hand ...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Yep.

Reminds of a nice young Muslim man I once talked to.

I was preaching the gospel to an Imam and some of his followers...... an intense encounter as you might imagine. After an hour or so, not sure exactly cuz time flies by when you’re having fun, and the screaming on their side subsided a few decibels a young man pulled me aside, handed me a KJV Bible, and challenged me to show him where it says “Jesus is God”. Several verses came to mind and as I started to thumb through to them he added “but you can only use the verses in RED”. He meant of course that He only wanted the proof from the actual quotes of Jesus as indicated by the red text in his Bible.

That is selective and that is what Aron is also doing.. pivoting his argument on “1000” or limiting it to the book of Revelation. Plugging his ears to the whole in favor of a part to support his argument. In so doing he is violating an important matter concerning the Word of God. He is breaking it. Jesus told the Jews they were doing this when He referred to Himself as the Son of God and He challenged them concerning their own teaching “gods” in Psalm 82. He said the scripture cannot be broken. Aron’s argument fails were he to allow Brother Lees teaching on the subject from whole Bible.... so he slices and dices the Word of God... breaking it.

Drake

It may seem an unreasonable request, but why? We have a basis to think that the millennial kingdom is 1,000 years.

We have a basis to feel that the end of this age will be a judgement, and the end of the millennial kingdom will also have a judgement.

Why wouldn't the determination that you enter "outer darkness" or "the joy of your Lord" be made at the Lord's judgement seat. Seems quite consistent with the NT revelation. Why wouldn't the judgement to enter into the kingdom for all believers, even those in the "outer darkness" be made at the Great White Throne? seems reasonable.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery. The "1,000-year prison" teaching should not be received uncritically as if it were from God. Question it - challenge it - test it - prove it.

Yes & AMEN - for FREEDOM! (shades of William Wallace in Braveheart) We do need to test these things and not be under the yoke of fear!

A balancing word, as discussed, is what Christ tells the faithful servants in Matthew 25: "You have been faithful IN A FEW things . . . enter into the joy . . ." ("a few things" is not the big onerous demand that we often may imagine the Lord is going to be pleased with!)

So I want to bring these three things up again, as we didn't get many responding aye or nay. Can we have consensus on these three basic principles?


1. The Father loves us and we are reborn with a gift of new life - His life - in us, and therefore children of God who are true believers are thereby saved eternally.

2. There are many warnings in the OT and NT telling us we are accountable - there is some degree of scrutiny by God in the next life (and also this life) - for our works after we receive the new birth.

3. God is righteous and His judgments are just. He is firm yet He is fair in all His ways.