How Not To Be Deceived By Cults (Even Christian Ones)

Evangelical · 06-10-2018, 05:22 PM

You correctly stated the context, being worldly riches, but then you diverge and offer your own out of context interpretation as "word" or "life" and falsely attribute it to "calling someone rich". There is no issue with calling someone rich or poor if that is what he is, even the bible makes that distinction between believers. The issue is showing favoritism because of that condition. Now a cult, may or may not fit that description. A cult which is based on sharing all things in common and each person having relatively few possessions does not fit that description. A cult , such as a "Hollywood cult" might value rich and fame and that verse might then apply to them, but only if they were in a church. The verse does not apply to outsiders, only believers in the church. The one major flaw in Todd's and your approach to "testing cults" is that you apply verses intended for the church, to unbelievers. The only real tests we can apply to unbelievers is the test of faith and test of spirits, to determine if they are genuine believers or not. Beyond that, we cannot apply 10 verses intended for believers to unbelievers, and then determine they are a cult on that basis.

I do not see a problem calling one brother rich in the word if he is, and another poor in the word if he is. The rich brother may spend 3 hours a day in the word and the poor one 5 minutes a week. We cannot call the poor brother "rich in the word" if he is not, that would be a lie. And it is not showing partiality to let the word-rich brother serve more in the church by preaching the word than the word-poor one who is unable to preach the word.

ZNPaaneah · 06-10-2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You correctly stated the context, being worldly riches, but then you diverge and offer your own out of context interpretation as "word" or "life" and falsely attribute it to "calling someone rich". There is no issue with calling someone rich or poor if that is what he is, even the bible makes that distinction between believers. The issue is showing favoritism because of that condition.

That is funny. You think referring to someone as "being rich" is not showing favoritism? It doesn't indicate a kind of enviousness which is the context of being drawn away by our lusts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Now a cult, may or may not fit that description. A cult which is based on sharing all things in common and each person having relatively few possessions does not fit that description. A cult , such as a "Hollywood cult" might value rich and fame and that verse might then apply to them, but only if they were in a church. The verse does not apply to outsiders, only believers in the church. The one major flaw in Todd's and your approach to "testing cults" is that you apply verses intended for the church, to unbelievers.

My approach to testing cults? Where did you get that? First, I have already pointed out that I do not see the Biblical value in the wider definition of cult referring to a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious. Therefore I do not have an approach for testing such a thing. However, if you take the narrower definition of a great religious devotion to a person, well that is not my test, that is James who warns us of this. I didn't write the book of James, I merely pointed that out.

I do not believe that the book of James is so narrow as to warn us not to get involved with Jim Jones. What I do believe is that it is very difficult to find the narrow road that leads to life and the book of James helps us with that and identifies the things that would lead us astray. Jim Jones is merely an extreme example of such a thing.

Evangelical · 06-11-2018, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is funny. You think referring to someone as "being rich" is not showing favoritism? It doesn't indicate a kind of enviousness which is the context of being drawn away by our lusts?

I don't think it's showing favoritism if it's true and it depends on the context. If I referred to someone as rich and then treated them differently to a poor person that would be favoritism. But referring to them as rich or poor is not favoritism. Some people are richer than others, that's just a fact of life. The Bible, 1 Timothy 6:17-19 for example, has specific instructions to the rich.

ZNPaaneah · 06-11-2018, 04:40 PM

The point is that it isn't true. Why is this person rich? Because of possessions, title, position, etc? This world is passing away, like the flower that today is and tomorrow is not. All of that is vanity, it isn't real.

Are they rich because of the "rich word"? Every good thing comes from God, they aren't rich, they are a servant of a rich God. Why are they taking credit from God?

Saying they are rich indicates that you don't know that you are an heir of God.

Why do you add this term like it is a title: "rich brother"? Surely it is to make a distinction. Simply using the term is to treat them differently. Besides, who are you to judge?

Evangelical · 06-11-2018, 07:44 PM

I'm not using it as a title but as a description of some attribute. If it's a title, then sure, it's favoritism or glorifying them. I might know so and so are rich, just like I know they are white or black, tall or short. It might have some relevance, and does not necessarily mean recognition of those facts is attributing to them any glory that would steal God's glory. For example, maybe I want to ask the tall ones to reach the top of the shelf and the short ones to crawl into a narrow space. I don't see it as an issue unless someone makes it an issue. Based on 1 Timothy 6:17-19, it seems he wants the rich brothers to do more giving and charity.

06-10-2018, 05:22 PM	#1
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,965	Re: How Not To Be Deceived By Cults (Even Christian Ones) You correctly stated the context, being worldly riches, but then you diverge and offer your own out of context interpretation as "word" or "life" and falsely attribute it to "calling someone rich". There is no issue with calling someone rich or poor if that is what he is, even the bible makes that distinction between believers. The issue is showing favoritism because of that condition. Now a cult, may or may not fit that description. A cult which is based on sharing all things in common and each person having relatively few possessions does not fit that description. A cult , such as a "Hollywood cult" might value rich and fame and that verse might then apply to them, but only if they were in a church. The verse does not apply to outsiders, only believers in the church. The one major flaw in Todd's and your approach to "testing cults" is that you apply verses intended for the church, to unbelievers. The only real tests we can apply to unbelievers is the test of faith and test of spirits, to determine if they are genuine believers or not. Beyond that, we cannot apply 10 verses intended for believers to unbelievers, and then determine they are a cult on that basis. I do not see a problem calling one brother rich in the word if he is, and another poor in the word if he is. The rich brother may spend 3 hours a day in the word and the poor one 5 minutes a week. We cannot call the poor brother "rich in the word" if he is not, that would be a lie. And it is not showing partiality to let the word-rich brother serve more in the church by preaching the word than the word-poor one who is unable to preach the word.

06-11-2018, 04:40 PM	#4
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7,105	Re: How Not To Be Deceived By Cults (Even Christian Ones) The point is that it isn't true. Why is this person rich? Because of possessions, title, position, etc? This world is passing away, like the flower that today is and tomorrow is not. All of that is vanity, it isn't real. Are they rich because of the "rich word"? Every good thing comes from God, they aren't rich, they are a servant of a rich God. Why are they taking credit from God? Saying they are rich indicates that you don't know that you are an heir of God. Why do you add this term like it is a title: "rich brother"? Surely it is to make a distinction. Simply using the term is to treat them differently. Besides, who are you to judge? __________________ They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God

06-11-2018, 07:44 PM	#5
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,965	Re: How Not To Be Deceived By Cults (Even Christian Ones) I'm not using it as a title but as a description of some attribute. If it's a title, then sure, it's favoritism or glorifying them. I might know so and so are rich, just like I know they are white or black, tall or short. It might have some relevance, and does not necessarily mean recognition of those facts is attributing to them any glory that would steal God's glory. For example, maybe I want to ask the tall ones to reach the top of the shelf and the short ones to crawl into a narrow space. I don't see it as an issue unless someone makes it an issue. Based on 1 Timothy 6:17-19, it seems he wants the rich brothers to do more giving and charity.