Some Good Things to Come Out of the Recovery?

[leastofthese]

So in your narrative you extrapolate an active condemnation of the Catholic Church as a core tenant (maybe the most important?) message of the Gospel and the work of Jesus on the cross. If that line of thinking were true, the core message of an Evangelical Gospel tract (not sure why you used a Gospel tract as your example...) is a long list of condemnations rather than the reality of scriptures and the work of Jesus on the cross. Your Gospel of Lee has it backwards - so it should be no surprise that the Witness Lee churches lack fruit and are a dying apart from the tree. Our creator offers so much more, why clinch so tightly to the words of the man Witness Lee?

[Sons to Glory!]

Leastofthese & Evangelical - Seems like this is just two perspectives of the same thing. (i.e., the three blind men trying to describe an elephant parable).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

So in your narrative you extrapolate an active condemnation of the Catholic Church as a core tenant (maybe the most important?) message of the Gospel and the work of Jesus on the cross. If that line of thinking were true, the core message of an Evangelical Gospel tract (not sure why you used a Gospel tract as your example...) is a long list of condemnations rather than the reality of scriptures and the work of Jesus on the cross. Your Gospel of Lee has it backwards - so it should be no surprise that the Witness Lee churches lack fruit and are a dying apart from the tree. Our creator offers so much more, why clinch so tightly to the words of the man Witness Lee?

If your statement "The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. " is true, then the Gospel tract the recovery uses is a long list of condemnations of Christianity. The Gospel tract has never included any condemnations of Christianity, thus disproving your statement.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If your statement "The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. " is true, then the Gospel tract the recovery uses is a long list of condemnations of Christianity. The Gospel tract has never included any condemnations of Christianity, thus disproving your statement.

Read almost any LSM document or attend almost any LSM approved meeting. You'll hear condemnation of Christians. The Christian churches that I've attended or been a part of have not made condemnation of the Catholic church the center of their messaging (actually quite far from it). The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers.

The LSM is so whacky that without a drumbeat of how bad and scary Christianity is (those poor, poor, people) - they wouldn't be able to keep the doors open. True Christianity points to Scripture and the message of Jesus.

I saw this first hand for an entire year - the LSM propaganda machine led by elders, those deceived by FTTA, and those born into the LSM lead the charge. But I had tasted and seen the Lord - my eyes were open. I gave the LSM churches a chance to show me their light, but found that behind those doors is lifeless, full of confusion, and lacking the beauty of Christ and His Spirit. I'm not writing to convince you of anything Evangelical, I'm afraid it is beyond that point. Feel free to have the last word.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Read almost any LSM document or attend almost any LSM approved meeting. You'll hear condemnation of Christians. The Christian churches that I've attended or been a part of have not made condemnation of the Catholic church the center of their messaging (actually quite far from it). The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers.

The LSM is so whacky that without a drumbeat of how bad and scary Christianity is (those poor, poor, people) - they wouldn't be able to keep the doors open. True Christianity points to Scripture and the message of Jesus.

I saw this first hand for an entire year - the LSM propaganda machine led by elders, those deceived by FTTA, and those born into the LSM lead the charge. But I had tasted and seen the Lord - my eyes were open. I gave the LSM churches a chance to show me their light, but found that behind those doors is lifeless, full of confusion, and lacking the beauty of Christ and His Spirit. I'm not writing to convince you of anything Evangelical, I'm afraid it is beyond that point. Feel free to have the last word.

Titus Chu, regional Midwest leader, to his credit had long discarded the LC mantra of constant condemnation of Christianity. Perhaps it was a point of contention with the Blindeds worthy of excommunication?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Read almost any LSM document or attend almost any LSM approved meeting. You'll hear condemnation of Christians. The Christian churches that I've attended or been a part of have not made condemnation of the Catholic church the center of their messaging (actually quite far from it). The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers.

The LSM is so whacky that without a drumbeat of how bad and scary Christianity is (those poor, poor, people) - they wouldn't be able to keep the doors open. True Christianity points to Scripture and the message of Jesus.

I saw this first hand for an entire year - the LSM propaganda machine led by elders, those deceived by FTTA, and those born into the LSM lead the charge. But I had tasted and seen the Lord - my eyes were open. I gave the LSM churches a chance to show me their light, but found that behind those doors is lifeless, full of confusion, and lacking the beauty of Christ and His Spirit. I'm not writing to convince you of anything Evangelical, I'm afraid it is beyond that point. Feel free to have the last word.

"The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers."

If that is true then we should be able to find condemnation of believers in a "Witness Lee Gospel tract".

There is a list of about 20 tracts here:

http://www.lsm.org/tracts.html

Here is your opportunity to prove yourself right. Please refer to which one of those gospel tracts condemns believers. "Read almost any LSM document" is true, then we should expect that "almost any" , say, 90%, of those 20 tracts should contain condemnation of believers.

[Sons to Glory!]

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt & covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness . . .

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt & covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness . . .

Like I said..... good luck with that!

[Sons to Glory!]

Here are the two things we've listed so far, regarding good things to be promoted by the LC:

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ

So here's a third - Calling on the name of the Lord

Again, this doesn't mean the LC was necessarily the originator of the idea or practice, or that there weren't abuses and degradation from the idea. It just means that it was something they strongly promoted

"When you call you get the person of that Name!"

Calling on the name of the Lord has been something really saving in my life. Wherever I go or whatever I find myself in, I can call His name to myself or out loud. The word tells us that to breath the name of Jesus is a function of the Holy Spirit, and I am here to attest this is true! This fact is found in a number of places in the NT, Psalms and elsewhere. "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." There is no time limit and no shelf life to this.

The Lord had me out in the middle of the desert drying out for a few years. When I returned to consistent fellowship (here in Scottsdale) He showed me that while I thought I was totally in the toilet during that time, I still had not completely denied His name. That is, I would still occasionally sigh, "Lord Jesus" in a calling way to Him. He let me know that He heard me and saved me!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference?

Thanks for your thoughtful post Sons to Glory! While there may be some people here "trying to prove something" (and for those who are, they are just as welcomed as anyone else) I think the majority of posters are here just wanting to come to terms with, and maybe make some sense of, all that we went through in the Local Church of Witness Lee. A side benefit, I hope and pray, is that other Forum members and lurkers may be helped by our back and forth dialogue. Healthy debate can and should be a profitable exercise for all concerned: "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." (Proverbs 27:17)

I would replace your term "accusation" with another word: "try". As mature Christians we are not called to accuse, per se, but we are called to try, to test and to discern. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) "But have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false." (Revelation 2:2)

Clearly, Witness Lee and many of the teachings and practices he established in the Local Church, have been "tried and tested", and have been found wanting at best, and in many cases found to be patently false. Witness Lee, in so many words, and in so many ways, and through so many deputies, proclaimed himself, not only "an apostle", but "The One Apostle for the age". Lee himself placed himself in the position of being tried and tested. And tried and tested he was - from those within and from those without. And just as was the case with the teachings and practices he established, Lee himself has been found wanting, and many have come to the conclusion that the man was a false apostle of sorts.

So, one may fairly ask, "Why still all the trying and testing, the man has been laid to rest for over 20 years?". My retort would be simple and short: Because the current leadership in the Local Church Movement continues to publicly insist on proclaiming and extolling the virtues of the person and work of Witness Lee. They still loudly proclaim and heartily extol (the person) Witness Lee as "The One Minister for The Age", and insist that (the work) his personal ministry - his personal interpretations - be honored and lauded as "the One Ministry for the Age". So as long as the leadership (and the vocal majority of LC members) continue on with their proclaiming and extolling, there will always be, I'm quite sure, at least a small remnant of vanquished foes who continue on with the trying and testing.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness

As my good friend Drake likes to say: Good luck with that!

Seriously though, I only wish Witness Lee and the Blended Brothers could have come to such a crises of conscience....if they had, we wouldn't be here at this little popcorn stand today.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt & covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness . . .

You pose an interesting question here. Many of the long time posters could probably do a better job estimating, but many people on this forum have shared testimony of gratitude for the posters of this forum (many who started off “lurkers”).I pray that even more parents and college students have been deterred from joining the Witness Lee churches because of the truth exposed here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

The question is answered when we closely examine an overwhelming number of credible witnesses who step forward with testimony to protect the children of God from damage and expose LSM's unrighteousness.

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

The Bible has recorded the sins of many men of God "for our admonition" as the Bible informs us. We are not just "enumerating their sins," but protecting the hurt and wounded. We address past sins, covered up by LSM's leadership, because the members have been deceived.

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

Mistakes? Hey, I agree that everyone is entitled to a few "mistakes." But we are not talking about inadvertent "mistakes," but we are discussing carefully planned stratagems at LSM to deceive God's people, coverup crimes, and smear the reputations of those whose only "crime" is to speak their conscience in order to protect the children of God. Read John Ingalls book "Speaking the Truth in Love."

[Sons to Glory!]

Brothers - just calling it as I see it. Too much of a "good thing" is still too much.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Mistakes? Hey, I agree that everyone is entitled to a few "mistakes." But we are not talking about inadvertent "mistakes," but we are discussing carefully planned stratagems at LSM to deceive God's people, coverup crimes, and smear the reputations of those whose only "crime" is to speak their conscience in order to protect the children of God. Read John Ingalls book "Speaking the Truth in Love."

I have his book around here somewhere I think and read it about 20 years or so ago, right around the time I started meeting in this lovely place called Scottsdale Church. I remember also talking with him via phone for a brief while about it all (I was still intensely in the throws of trying to recover from Recovery negatives then - I didn't even know what I didn't know).