Christ or faith the Savior?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

So we can be in the spirit (by being able to say "Jesus is Lord") and still following wrong teachings (because the test does nothing on discernment), right?

Agree.

Originally Posted by A little brother

It does not say anything about oath or swearing or being clear, does it?

That's right, it's only an analogy. But that it should be clear is common sense really.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Agree.

But then this I don't understand. What is the point of being in the spirit if we don't/can't follow its anointment that teaches us what is right or wrong?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by A little brother

But then this I don't understand. What is the point of being in the spirit if we don't/can't follow its anointment that teaches us what is right or wrong?

It's because this is the central strategy religious and spiritual leaders use for defrauding people. All leaders that use this technique say the same things. They will say things like in the case of Witness Lee, "get out of the mind and get into the spirit" or within the New Age something like get in tune to your "higher consciousness", ect.

What this really does is work to get people into a heightened emotional state where they're no longer thinking rationally but reacting to everything emotionally. And when you're in this state, you're the most suggestible. God is holy as is his Holy Spirit. He's not only "spiritual", God is also rational (Isaiah 1:18). You don't need to get out of one to get into another. And neither do you need to get into the Holy Spirit because those born of God already have his spirit in them.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

But then this I don't understand. What is the point of being in the spirit if we don't/can't follow its anointment that teaches us what is right or wrong?

You must be thinking of this verse:

1 John 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.

1 John 2:26 gives the context:
These things have I written to you concerning them that seduce you.

So verse 20 is specific and not a general claim that the anointing will teach us everything.

If we look at verse 21 and 22 we can find what sort of knowledge/teaching he is talking about:

I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.


So in context, it means that we don't need anyone to teach us that Jesus is the Christ because we have the Holy Spirit. The anointing teaches about Christ. There is no reason to think it should teach about doctrine such as Calvinism or whether we should keep the Sabbath.

For this we have Scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

and teachers:

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,

Acts 18:26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

For these reasons I do not expect the anointing to teach about this - "WL/LSM's teachings are very wrong" - that is what Scripture is for.

But the anointing does teach that "Jesus is Lord" because this is about Christ.

Even if you disagree that the anointing's teaching is limited (to Christ), you can at least see that the Bible speaks of Scripture and teachers as being our teacher. It is not only the anointing that God gave for teaching. We could add the moral conscience and Creation in there as well for "teachers" (Romans 1:20), and also parents/elders (Proverbs 22:6).

And if the anointing was some kind of safeguard against wrong doctrine, teachers would not need to be judged with greater strictness (according to James 3:1) and the scriptures would not need to warn about false teachers and prophets (any teacher or pastor or prophet could say whatever false doctrine they wanted without consequence because everyone is taught the right thing by the anointing in them).

I suggest that the reason Christianity is divided today into hundreds of denominations is because the anointing does not teach us everything. If it did there would be no need for theologians or bible commentaries or Christian books.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You must be thinking of this verse:

1 John 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.

1 John 2:26 gives the context:
...
So in context, it means that we don't need anyone to teach us that Jesus is the Christ because we have the Holy Spirit. The anointing teaches about Christ. There is no reason to think it should teach about doctrine such as Calvinism or whether we should keep the Sabbath.

I am glad you have picked up the idea that some verses are specific to certain context. But what I have in mind is actually the next verse that you didn't mention:

1 John 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

For this we have Scripture:
...
and teachers:
...

I believe both the Holy Spirit and the Scripture are needed to teach us the truth. We need the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the truth in the Scripture, and we need the Scripture to check against false spirits. It is the basic scriptural principle of 2 or 3 witnesses. Or in simple words, checks and balances.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I am glad you have picked up the idea that some verses are specific to certain context. But what I have in mind was actually the next verse that you didn't mention:

1 John 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him.



I believe both the Holy Spirit and the Scripture are needed to teach us the truth. We need the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the truth in the Scripture, and we need the Scripture to check against false spirits. It is the basic scriptural principle of 2 or 3 witnesses. Or in simple words, checks and balances.

In the context, "all things" means all necessary things relating to salvation. If "all things" meant everything, then he would not need to write to them as their teacher.

"you have no need that anyone teach you" is another way of saying "you already have what is essential for salvation so you don't need me to tell/remind you that Jesus is the Christ, and that whoever has the Son has the Father..."...but the purpose of John's writing is to that they may not sin (1 John 2:1) and to warn them about deception (1 John 3:7), not to teach them the elementary truths about Christ, of which they have an anointing that teaches them all necessary things about Christ.

I would say:
God's anointing teaches us the necessary things about Christ for our salvation such that no one can snatch us out of His hand (John 10:28). We can see that it is by the anointing which teaches us about all necessary things about Christ that we are protected from losing salvation. Teachers like John and Scripture are required to teach about things important, but not necessary for salvation. These teachings are not so that we can be saved or not lose our salvation, but so that we "may not sin" (1 John 2:1) and "not be ashamed at His coming" (1 John 2:28). But "if we do sin" (if we ignore John's teachings), then we have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1).

The consequence of following false teachers for a believer is not that they are in danger of losing their salvation if they do (they have an anointing which prevents that) , but that they may be led astray into sin. A paraphrase of 1 John chapter 2 is this:
"I don't want you to sin and be ashamed at Christ's coming, that's why I am writing to you about these false teachers. If you do follow a false teacher you won't lose your salvation because you have the anointing which teaches you the truth about Christ for salvation, and you have an advocate by which your sins will be forgiven, but please abide in Christ so that you won't fall into sin".

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

In the context, "all things" means all necessary things relating to salvation. If "all things" meant everything, then he would not need to write to them as their teacher.

"you have no need that anyone teach you" is another way of saying "you already have what is essential for salvation so you don't need me to tell/remind you that Jesus is the Christ, and that whoever has the Son has the Father..."...but the purpose of John's writing is to that they may not sin (1 John 2:1) and to warn them about deception (1 John 3:7), not to teach them the elementary truths about Christ, of which they have an anointing that teaches them all necessary things about Christ.

I would say:
God's anointing teaches us the necessary things about Christ for our salvation such that no one can snatch us out of His hand (John 10:28). We can see that it is by the anointing which teaches us about all necessary things about Christ that we are protected from losing salvation. Teachers like John and Scripture are required to teach about things important, but not necessary for salvation. These teachings are not so that we can be saved or not lose our salvation, but so that we "may not sin" (1 John 2:1) and "not be ashamed at His coming" (1 John 2:28). But "if we do sin" (if we ignore John's teachings), then we have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1).

Sorry, it doesn't quite make sense to me.

Wasn't 1 John addressing believers who have received salvation? What's the point of the anointing to teach someone already saved about matters only related to their salvation? If we haven't received salvation already, will the Holy Spirit be in us as the anointing?

If 2:27 is in the same context, don't you think it should appear before 2:26 where John wrote "These things I have written to you..."?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The consequence of following false teachers for a believer is not that they are in danger of losing their salvation if they do (they have an anointing which prevents that) , but that they may be led astray into sin. A paraphrase of 1 John chapter 2 is this:
"I don't want you to sin and be ashamed at Christ's coming, that's why I am writing to you about these false teachers. If you do follow a false teacher you won't lose your salvation because you have the anointing which teaches you the truth about Christ for salvation, and you have an advocate by which your sins will be forgiven, but please abide in Christ so that you won't fall into sin".

I hope this is not the reason why you aren't worried about following the WL/LSM teachings - that you won't lose your salvation no matter what.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Sorry, it doesn't quite make sense to me.

Wasn't 1 John addressing believers who have received salvation? What's the point of the anointing to teach someone already saved about matters only related to their salvation? If we haven't received salvation already, will the Holy Spirit be in us as the anointing?

If 2:27 is in the same context, don't you think it should appear before 2:26 where John wrote "These things I have written to you..."?

The false teaching some believed was that Jesus did not come in the flesh (1 John 2:19). The necessary teaching for salvation is that Christ came in the flesh. Those who denied this about Christ also denied the Father ( 1 John 2:22). Some left because they were deceived that Jesus did not come in the flesh (1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:22-23) because they did not truly have the anointing. He means that he is confident that the rest who have not left won't be deceived and leave because they have the anointing which keeps them safe. The anointing gives them the right understanding of Jesus Christ as one who came in the flesh. It is in this sense that the anointing of the Spirit teaches them all necessary things about Christ and protects them from being deceived.

To put this in more practical terms - of those who have left the recovery, some might have denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, and others continue to believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. The difference between the two is that one has the anointing and the other doesn't.