Poor poor Christianity?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't think Christianity "had to take" another shape.

Indeed, "had to" might be too strong. But by the end of the 1st c. (when John was written) can you imagine the disappointment they must have experienced because Jesus hadn't returned, hadn't driven out the Romans, and hadn't setup God's kingdom, like promised?

Originally Posted by E

Imagine a scenario where Constantine did not adopt Christianity as the religion of the Empire. In that case, Christianity would be like Buddhism is today, a way of life, with no real institutional structure.

Good point. I have to admit I'm having a problem imagining it. With no RCC there'd be no Protestant, no Luther et al. And no Restoration or Recovery. No Lee What would Christianity be today without Constantine? Perchance today real Christianity would still be oral Christianity ... who knows?

But seriously, a lot had already changed since Jesus, by 325 CE. For one thing Paul happened. In Matthew (written after Paul's letters) Jesus tells the 12 "Go not into the way of the Gentiles..." But in Acts (also written after Paul's letters) Jesus is said to have called Paul to go to the gentiles. That was the birth of "Christian." So 'Christian' was a change. (Didn't it start out as a derogatory name, cuz Christ followers were considered atheists, that didn't honor the gods?)

In our earliest accounts, by Paul, Paul was already seeing changes happening ; thus warnings about different gospels and different Jesus's (sp) ; and his troubles with Asia ; not to mention John, who was holding to the 'earliest' Jesus Jewish way. Changes were afoot early on.

And changes went on, long before 325CE. For instance, Marcion of Sinope, early 2nd c.. He was a significant figure. He was excommunicated by the proto-orthodox, but he kicked off the development of the NT canon.

That brings me back to the proto-orthodox. I've seen -- or been close enough to -- how devotees tend to get their masters all wrong. That to me is the proto-orthodox.

I've haven't read all the early church fathers. But I've read enough to question if we should even listen to them at all.

I seek to understand what was before them. In fact, my keen interest is in understanding what was before even Paul. The gospels don't get me there, completely. They were written too many decades after Jesus to convince me of the real Jesus, and what he actually taught and held to.

Cuz I think, "Christianity," so called, changed from its purest form, the Jesus form, during the oral period ; pre any writings.

Of course I can't document any of that. Cuz it was oral, and not written.

Thanks for your thoughts Evan.