Christ or faith the Savior?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There's no verse that affirms that Judas ever believed. Sorry, but you are assuming that. We know little of Judas' heart. He also was the only disciple from Judah, where the Lord spent very little time. There is no evidence that Judas had believed or repented before he met John or Jesus, while he followed Jesus, or after he betrayed Him. John 6.68-71 makes it very clear that the Lord tested His disciples as to whether they believed in Him. Peter spoke for them that Jesus had the words of eternal life. Jesus, however, clarified the situation. He had chosen all of them, yet He knew that one of them was a devil.

Biblical faith is not mental assent. The Bible says "believe into Him," and real faith is substantiates our hope and is the conviction of the unseen. That's why Biblical faith is often accompanied by other descriptors like repent, turn your heart to God, be baptized, be born anew, etc.

Since the fall of man, salvation unto righteousness is only by faith in God's promised Messiah/Christ. From Adam forward they had to believe in the coming One. While Jesus walked the earth, they had to believe into Him. Since His ascension, we all must believe in His finished work. He alone and faith alone is the way to the Father.

Scripture does not really refer to him as "the fraud" and considers him part of the 12, it doesn't really talk about the "11 + 1". They even replaced his position after Judas died.

He was a disciple, he was chosen by Christ, the Psalms call him one of Jesus's closest friends. From the point of view of an external observer, he was a believer. We cannot know his heart, I agree, and that's why I prefer to see him as a believer, outwardly, it's easier to explain.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Scripture does not really refer to him as "the fraud" and considers him part of the 12, it doesn't really talk about the "11 + 1". They even replaced his position after Judas died.

He was a disciple, he was chosen by Christ, the Psalms call him one of Jesus's closest friends. From the point of view of an external observer, he was a believer. We cannot know his heart, I agree, and that's why I prefer to see him as a believer, outwardly, it's easier to explain.

Yes, Judas was a friend, a close companion. When Jesus reclined at the Passover table with the disciples, John leaned against His breast. But who did Jesus lean on? Judas. This is why only John heard the conversation between Jesus and Judas in John 13.21-30.

Judas was His personal valet, a very close companion, to Jesus. The Father allowed His Son to be betrayed, as David also was in type, to initiate the Passion of His Beloved. Why did God design this extra affliction? In the wilderness Jesus battled the devil directly enduring multiple temptations after starving 40 days. Here at His final meal, the devil entered into His closest friend in order to betray Him.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, Judas was a friend, a close companion. When Jesus reclined at the Passover table with the disciples, John leaned against His breast. But who did Jesus lean on? Judas. This is why only John heard the conversation between Jesus and Judas in John 13.21-30.

Ohio, can you please clarify how you reached this conclusion? The only words I see that were directed specifically at Judas were, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”

But then the next verse says "But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. " Meaning the whole table heard this and not just John and Judas. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ohio, can you please clarify how you reached this conclusion? The only words I see that were directed specifically at Judas were, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”

But then the next verse says "But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. " Meaning the whole table heard this and not just John and Judas. Maybe I'm missing something.

My understanding is that John 13.25-26 was a private conversation between Jesus and John. Peter was nearby so perhaps he heard more. Most of the disciples were unaware. (vv. 28-29)

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My understanding is that John 13.25-26 was a private conversation between Jesus and John. Peter was nearby so perhaps he heard more. Most of the disciples were unaware. (vv. 28-29)

I agree that only John understood why Jesus told Judas that, but I was more curious on how you concluded Jesus was leaning on Judas. Maybe in was a typo...?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I agree that only John understood why Jesus told Judas that, but I was more curious on how you concluded Jesus was leaning on Judas. Maybe in was a typo...?

Years ago, while personally being betrayed by a loved one, the thought of Jesus being betrayed by Judas intrigued me. Why would God allow something so cruel? The prophetic in Jn 13.18 got me going, led me to Psalms 41.9 and to 55.12-14. I considered Judas to be one of Jesus' closest friends. (Somewhat contrary to the written Gospels which saw Judas in light of his betrayal.) Judas having "the money" made me consider that he was a valet or steward to the Lord arranging daily accommodations for Him and His entourage. I began to consider Judas not as a student or follower of the Lord, but as a close friend, a personal companion, as prophesied in Psalms.

The Passover supper, contrary to traditional pictures of a long straight table with chairs, had participants reclining as spokes around a central table or hub where the food was placed. According to ancient custom, each would face in the same direction on their left side on pillows with their heads closest to the table and their feet aiming away. (Which would also expedite the foot-washing.)

Jesus reclined just as "one of the guys." John was in front of the Lord, hence he could lean back on the Lord's breast. But who would be behind the Lord? Who could the Lord lean on? The private nature of Jn 13 and the fact that the Lord "dipped the morsel, giving it to Judas" led me to believe that Judas was adjacent and behind the Lord. Except for this unique Passover dinner, which enacted the New Covenant, for Judas to regularly recline by Jesus would facilitate regular discussions about His daily itinerary.

Does that make sense?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Years ago, while personally being betrayed by a loved one, the thought of Jesus being betrayed by Judas intrigued me. Why would God allow something so cruel? The prophetic in Jn 13.18 got me going, led me to Psalms 41.9 and to 55.12-14. I considered Judas to be one of Jesus' closest friends.

If God's plan was for Jesus to die for the sins of the world, then turns out that Judas was the truest of the 12.

Jesus told him to go do it. They must have had a shared plan. And Judas did as he was told.

And he paid the highest price for it. While the other of the 12 ran off.

If the death of Christ was for the sins of the world, then we should all be thanking Judas.