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Apologetic discussions Apologetic Discussions Regarding the Teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee

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Old 05-22-2018, 05:25 PM   #1
Evangelical
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Default Re: Latter Rain, Kingdom Now, & the Lord's Recovery

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Wouldn't the whole concept of the Lord having a latter day "recovery" of the Church before the 2nd coming be extra-biblical in itself?

You say don't confuse correlation with causation. Doesn't Paul ask rhetorically, "What relationship does light have with darkness?" Either doctrine is rooted in God's truth or it's a lie. Both predate any official position, denominational or not.

I see God's original intent was for us to have dominion over the land and animals in Genesis but where does scripture teach this kind of dominion after the fall? Isn't it more reasonable to assume this privilege was forfeit by sin? Dominionism is the belief that we are to reclaim that responsibility before the Lord's coming. This doctrine would be considered extra-biblical.
In Genesis 1:28 , there are two commands.
1) be fruitful and multiply - this is by marriage.
2) fill the earth and subdue it - this is achieved primarily by being fruitful and multiplying.

If dominion was forfeited by sin, then marriage would be also. Since there is no indication that marriage was forfeited by sin, I think we can conclude that dominion is not forfeited either.
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:32 PM   #2
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In Genesis 1:28 , there are two commands.
1) be fruitful and multiply - this is by marriage.
2) fill the earth and subdue it - this is achieved primarily by being fruitful and multiplying.

If dominion was forfeited by sin, then marriage would be also. Since there is no indication that marriage was forfeited by sin, I think we can conclude that dominion is not forfeited either.
Dominion is the relationship between man and the earth. Marriage is the relationship between man and women. Scripture says that Satan is the "god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4) and not the god of man so you're argument fails by equating these two types of relationships. Marriage is further taught in scripture, dominion is not. Dominion implies mastery over creation. Genesis states that after the fall, man will "eat bread by the sweat of your brow". Does this sound like mastery or slavery?

Either way the type of dominion I'm talking about is religious/political dominion.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:01 PM   #3
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Dominion is the relationship between man and the earth. Marriage is the relationship between man and women. Scripture says that Satan is the "god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4) and not the god of man so you're argument fails by equating these two types of relationships. Marriage is further taught in scripture, dominion is not. Dominion implies mastery over creation. Genesis states that after the fall, man will "eat bread by the sweat of your brow". Does this sound like mastery or slavery?

Either way the type of dominion I'm talking about is religious/political dominion.

Dominion is also here in Genesis 9:1

9 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

This is after the fall, so obviously dominion was not forfeited by sin.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:21 PM   #4
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Dominion is also here in Genesis 9:1

9 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

This is after the fall, so obviously dominion was not forfeited by sin.

This verse does not teach dominion. Dominion means to govern and rule which would require willful cooperation between ruler and subject.

God is stating here in Genesis 9:1 that from now on we aren't going to rule over creation as per God's original will before the fall. But because of the fall, now creation is subject to fear and terror introduced through sin.

Genesis 9:1 is declaring subjugation rather than declaring a right to dominion.

The difference between subjugate and dominate is that subjugate is to forcibly impose obedience or servitude while dominate is to govern, rule or control by superior authority or power.

Terror and fear are Satan's dominion.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:30 PM   #5
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This verse does not teach dominion. Dominion means to govern and rule which would require willful cooperation between ruler and subject.

God is stating here in Genesis 9:1 that from now on we aren't going to rule over creation as per God's original will before the fall. But because of the fall, now creation is subject to fear and terror introduced through sin.

Genesis 9:1 is declaring subjugation rather than declaring a right to dominion. Big difference.
Are you just making this up as you go? Your meaning of dominion is plain wrong according to any English dictionary. And, Genesis 1:28 uses the word subdue, so subjugation is implied pre-fall.

Dominion means to govern and rule.

It does not require willful cooperation between ruler and subject. That's why we have the police and military. You seem to have just added that meaning so you could form your argument.

I would say that dominion before the fall was to be accomplished through fruitful multiplying (in marriage). Man was to lovingly care for all the animals and no one ate each other.

Dominion after the fall requires means other than just multiplying, because now there is fighting and death, and the ground is no longer easy to work with, so we need technology and invention. So, dominion through subjugation.

But the command to have dominion persists before and after the fall. It was first given to Adam and Eve, then after "resetting" the Earth by the flood, God gave the command again to Noah.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:44 PM   #6
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Are you just making this up as you go? Your meaning of dominion is plain wrong according to any English dictionary.

Dominion means to govern and rule.

It does not require willful cooperation between ruler and subject. You seem to have just added that meaning so you could form your argument.
Biblical dominion was a command according to God's will. Before the fall, humans and creation were both still under his will. That's why I say dominion is cooperation between ruler (being God through man) and subject (being the land and animals).

After the fall, Genesis 9 states that creation is now subject to terror and fear which confirms the transfer of dominion from man over to Satan. Dominion is taught after the fall, but it is no longer ours in accordance with God's original intent.

Paul teaches in Romans 13 that all powers on earth are established by God. So yes in order for someone to have dominion over people, those people will have to be in willful cooperation to the established power, in the case of Satan it is a cooperation through sin. This is scripture.

Scripture does not teach that man will establish Christ's kingdom on earth and only then Christ will come, it says that Satan will be in dominion of the earth until Christ comes to destroy Satan's kingdom and then establish his rule on earth.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:51 PM   #7
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Biblical dominion was a command according to God's will. Before the fall, humans and creation were both still under his will. That's why I say dominion is cooperation between ruler (being God through man) and subject (being the land and animals).

After the fall, Genesis 9 states that creation is now subject to terror and fear which confirms the transfer of dominion from man over to Satan. Dominion is taught after the fall, but it is no longer ours in accordance with God's original intent.

Scripture teaches that all powers on earth are established by God. So yes in order for someone to have dominion over people, those people will have to be in willful cooperation to the established power, in the case of Satan it is a cooperation through sin. This is scripture.
The transfer of dominion from man to Satan is not really taught in Scripture.

This CARM article explains why and includes scripture that teaches that dominion has always belonged to God:

https://carm.org/adam-fall-dominion

Adam's, Noahs and the Christian's dominion is not their own but through God or Christ.

If Satan is said to have any sort of dominion, it would be perceived dominion that he has acquired illegally or attributed to himself but not real dominion.

Scripture does not teach "Adam forfeited his right to have dominion and so God gave that dominion to Satan". Dominion always belonged to God and in some sense Adam as God's agent on Earth, forfeited his ability (not right) to exercise God's dominion.

The concept of Satan having legal rights over anything is not scriptural as Satan is said to be a thief, deceiver, liar, so anything he has or claims to have is illegally obtained.

I like how discussions diverge to more fundamental topics. In this case, the identity of Satan Himself i.e. Satan - illegal usurper?, or legitimate God-granted ruler of the world? The second identity I cannot see fitting within Old Testament (Jewish) or Christian theology.

But you can prove it with this verse:

Luke 4:6 And the devil said to him, All this power will I give you, and the glory of them: for that is delivered to me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

How do we interpret Luke 4:6? Did God truly deliver everything to Satan?

Ellicotts commentary says this:

(6) For that is delivered unto me.—Better, hath been delivered unto me. The specific assertion of the usurped dominion, though implied in St. Matthew, is in its form peculiar to St. Luke. (See Note on Matthew 4:9.) The notion that any such delegated sovereignty had been assigned to the Tempter, either before or after his fall from his first estate, has, it need hardly be said, no foundation in Scripture. It asserts that “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof” (Psalm 24:1); and the claim of the Tempter was a lying boast, resting only on the permitted activity and temporary predominance of evil in the actual course of the world’s history.

Gill's commentary says this:

for that is delivered unto me: so far he spoke modestly, in that he owned an original, superior governor of them, by whom he pretended they were transferred to him; but lied, in that he suggested they were put into his hands by him, who had the supreme power over them; and that he acted by his constitution and appointment, as a deputy under him; when what power he had, as the God of the world, was by usurpation, and not by designation of God; and at most only by permission: and least of all was it true what follows;

So if anyone believes that Satan has any sort of legality over the world, they have believed Satan's lie, for any power he had was by usurpation not designation.
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