How I got here, and what is this place?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's the problem I have with the 'mystical' thing today. It suckers you in, and at some point you are violating common sense, scripture, your conscience. Because your "feeling" says to.

In the local churches of LSM/Witness Lee they call it "flavor". If something has the right "flavor" they approve of it. It's wholly subjective that I can see, and men even with relatively "good" hearts (i.e. seeking God in Christ Jesus) can get fooled.

Now in the LSM/Witness Lee NoName Church they are all about "seeing the church" from what their documents show. Now they have the "four-in-one" God. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Church which is His Body and Bride.

Now instead of seeing Jesus they see themselves, the Church Glorious. Deceived is what I think. They have left the safeguard of the common fellowship and the common truth plainly revealed. The gospel has Jesus Christ raised from the dead on the third day, faith in this producing repentance, forgiveness, and eternal life.

If it was all about the Church His Body and His Bride then why did Luther leave the RCC? That is the RCC objection to Luther. "So what if we made mistakes. We are the church. Nobody comes to Jesus except by us." If Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for Her, then why does the Church love the Church? That's what I see in the LC meetings. It's all about the Hive, the Collective. One man's subjectivity (Nee) spread over thousands (Bill Freeman, Witness Lee, Titus Chu, Dong Yu Lan).

In Witness Lee's "Divine and Mystical Realm" you got pseudo-spiritual mumbo jumbo. I don't know about Bill Freeman, but his wife Patsy certainly drew some comments. Is that directly related to the esoteric pursuit? Probably.

Stay safe, friend. That's my take.

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. This is our faith. Don't leave it for mysticism. The resurrection is deep, deep, deep. You can never plumb it.

Paul the apostle was subjective. He was possibly the first major Christian mystic. He had trances, visions and wrote about his oneness with God. Unlike James who wrote about practical matters.

John who wrote Revelation was also a mystic, else the book would be quite less subjective than it is.

Actually I think that Lee, Nee and the local churches are far less mystic than Pentecostalism, for example. How many prophesying meetings start with "I had a dream or vision last night..." very few indeed... but these things are common in Pentecostal churches.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Paul the apostle was subjective. He was possibly the first major Christian mystic. He had trances, visions and wrote about his oneness with God. Unlike James who wrote about practical matters.

John who wrote Revelation was also a mystic, else the book would be quite less subjective than it is.

Actually I think that Lee, Nee and the local churches are far less mystic than Pentecostalism, for example. How many prophesying meetings start with "I had a dream or vision last night..." very few indeed...
but these things are common in Pentecostal churches.

I never saw that.

I've been to hundreds of meetings.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I never saw that.

I've been to hundreds of meetings.

No one ever shared about what God spoke to them or showed them ?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No one ever shared about what God spoke to them or showed them ?

I see you have now changed your question to include all Christian gatherings.

[Mrsflib]

Totally agree with Evangelical.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Paul the apostle was subjective. He was possibly the first major Christian mystic.

If Paul's mysticism superseded that of Jesus Christ I would object. Witness Lee, by forcing the contents of his visions on others, showed that he was a fake. A fraud.

There are lots of Christian mystics out there. Not all of them are from God. Beware.

Another way to put it -- Jesus was a mystic; God raised him from the dead on the third day. Check. John was a mystic; he hung out with Jesus for 3+ years. Leaned on his breast, &c. Check. Paul had similar tendecies; he got the right hand of fellowship from the twelve. Check. Witness Who?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

If Paul's mysticism superseded that of Jesus Christ I would object. Witness Lee, by forcing the contents of his visions on others, showed that he was a fake. A fraud.

There are lots of Christian mystics out there. Not all of them are from God. Beware.

Aron, I'd argue that a Christian practicing mysticism isn't being Christian at all, or at the very least that their beliefs influenced by mysticism are not from God.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Aron, I'd argue that a Christian practicing mysticism isn't being Christian at all, or at the very least that their beliefs influenced by mysticism are not from God.

Jo S, I hear the Shepherd's voice when I read scripture. It is very inviting. It truly draws me.

I have no problem with a "personal touch" from the Lord. But if that produces bad fruit, you have been deceived. Judging others, calling scripture "fallen", lifting oneself above one's peers, I could go on and on. And they gather in homes and hold up this man's books, and read from them, as if somehow the contents impart some "secret sauce" into their lives.

Witness Lee isn't the only "prophet turned profit", either. As such it's probably instructional, in considering his case and the captive churches under his thrall. At least, folks should be warned.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

Jo S, I hear the Shepherd's voice when I read scripture. It is very inviting. It truly draws me.

I have no problem with a "personal touch" from the Lord. But if that produces bad fruit, you have been deceived. Judging others, calling scripture "fallen", lifting oneself above one's peers, I could go on and on. And they gather in homes and hold up this man's books, and read from them, as if somehow the contents impart some "secret sauce" into their lives.

Witness Lee isn't the only "prophet turned profit", either. As such it's probably instructional, in considering his case and the captive churches under his thrall. At least, folks should be warned.

I was referring to the practice of getting yourself into a state of some sort in order to hear his voice. Mysticism is more or less imposing your own will on the "lord" and forcing him to speak to you. When the Lord wants to speak to you, he will. And when he does, you'll know it.

If you need to work to get into his presence then you're getting into something else altogether. Those that have his Holy Spirit don't need to practice to hear his voice. Faith and trust in him is sufficient.