Now's good - byHismercy

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Hi ZNP,

I started but gave up on the barrage of questions. It’s easier for me to interact in conversation.

Pick the one or two most important to you and then you can roll the questions out as we go along.

Thanks
Drake

Why did the Lord permit Satan to enter Judas?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why did the Lord permit Satan to enter Judas?

To instigate the series of practical events that led to the Lords accomplishing salvation on the cross.

Why do you ask?

Drake

[Jo S]

I meant to post this earlier on the topic of sin and Satan but forgot I had left it open in my browser.

I remember someone asked for a biblical definition of sin. Here it is in 1 John 3:4;

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness."


We can see John labels sin more in the sense of it being a law because it's something that can be "practiced". Any lawyers out there should understand this.

What then is a law? A law is a set of principles.

Satan is lawless (2 Thess 2:9) but he is not lawlessness itself just as a police officer isn't the law itself but one who enforces the law.

In otherwords, Satan is a principality and not a set of principles. So to say Satan is sin, whether in or outside of a person, is error.

I've got to say, from an outsider's perspective, Lee's teachings have strong gnostic qualities to them.

[byHismercy]

And to add to this discussion...

Rom 14:23...for whatever does not proceed from FAITH is sin.

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him as righteousness.

From these verses, I see that sin is absence of faith.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I meant to post this earlier on the topic of sin and Satan but forgot I had left it open in my browser.

I remember someone asked for a biblical definition of sin. Here it is in 1 John 3:4;

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness."


We can see John labels sin more in the sense of it being a law because it's something that can be "practiced". Any lawyers out there should understand this.

What then is a law? A law is a set of principles.

Satan is lawless (2 Thess 2:9) but he is not lawlessness itself just as a police officer isn't the law itself but one who enforces the law.

In otherwords, Satan is a principality and not a set of principles. So to say Satan is sin, whether in or outside of a person, is error.

I've got to say, from an outsider's perspective, Lee's teachings have strong gnostic qualities to them.

A problem for this view is that it treats sin as something which exists independently of a person. Can you show us sin without a person? I would say that sin is lawlessness because lawlessness comes from Satan who is lawless. We could shorten this to say "lawlessness is Satan".

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Can you show us sin without a person?

I can show you darkness apart from a person.

Genesis 1:3

"God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness"

Notice God does not call darkness "good", but only light.

"For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14

Darkness was there before Lucifer partook of it.

Darkness is lawlessness.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

To instigate the series of practical events that led to the Lords accomplishing salvation on the cross.

Why do you ask?

Drake

It seems unrighteous, are you sure you don't want to rethink that? If the Lord is the one who instigated the crucifixion then it doesn't expose man having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, it exposes man is simply a puppet of the Lord.

Second, you haven't answered the other part of that. We have a promise that no one can take us out of the Lord's hand. So then, what was it that Judas did that in turn caused the Lord to allow Satan to enter into him?

Surely WL has answered this.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It seems unrighteous, are you sure you don't want to rethink that? If the Lord is the one who instigated the crucifixion then it doesn't expose man having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, it exposes man is simply a puppet of the Lord.

Second, you haven't answered the other part of that. We have a promise that no one can take us out of the Lord's hand. So then, what was it that Judas did that in turn caused the Lord to allow Satan to enter into him?

Surely WL has answered this.

Well, please explain. I’m all ears.

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, please explain. I’m all ears.

Drake

All ears? You have all you need from the words of Lee, you’re ears are deaf to anything else.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

All ears? You have all you need from the words of Lee, you’re ears are deaf to anything else.

And a hearty Amen to that!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

All ears? You have all you need from the words of Lee, you’re ears are deaf to anything else.

LofT,

Do you have anything to contribute to the actual topic?

Or is your contribution merely personal insults? If you are going to insult at least add something substantive to the topic! If you understand ZNPs point then contribute by clarifying it.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, please explain. I’m all ears.

Drake

Saying that Satan entered Judas is not said in a vacuum. Prior to this Jesus said that "one of you is a devil" and that He chose him.

Judas was a devil prior to this moment. He was a liar, and a deceiver. Being omniscient is not the same thing as being a puppet master. Being with Jesus for 3 years, witnessing his ministry, doing works of power in His name, did not change Judas. He never knew the Lord even though the Lord knew him.

It is contrary to God being omnipotent that he needed Judas for His plan of salvation. Instead, I would say that we needed Judas. We are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, so we need the Lord to expose Judas and show us how to deal with Judas.

As to Satan entering into Judas I would align that with Paul's word about the Spirit of disobedience operating in the world.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Saying that Satan entered Judas is not said in a vacuum. Prior to this Jesus said that "one of you is a devil" and that He chose him.

Judas was a devil prior to this moment. He was a liar, and a deceiver. Being omniscient is not the same thing as being a puppet master. Being with Jesus for 3 years, witnessing his ministry, doing works of power in His name, did not change Judas. He never knew the Lord even though the Lord knew him.

It is contrary to God being omnipotent that he needed Judas for His plan of salvation. Instead, I would say that we needed Judas. We are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, so we need the Lord to expose Judas and show us how to deal with Judas.

As to Satan entering into Judas I would align that with Paul's word about the Spirit of disobedience operating in the world.

Well. I see what you are saying ZNP to a large extent but not completely. On this last point above Luke 22:3 says “Satan entered into Judas” that is, Satanas, the adversary of Christ and God, eiserchomai into Judas. In the same way that Jesus eiserchomai the temple in Matthew 21:12.

Also, though we may learn from the incident I don’t really think we have to “deal with Judas”. You probably mean metaphorically yet I miss the point of the metaphor.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well. I see what you are saying ZNP to a large extent but not completely. On this last point above Luke 22:3 says “Satan entered into Judas” that is, Satanas, the adversary of Christ and God, eiserchomai into Judas. In the same way that Jesus eiserchomai the temple in Matthew 21:12.

Also, though we may learn from the incident I don’t really think we have to “deal with Judas”. You probably mean metaphorically yet I miss the point of the metaphor.

Drake

There are many verses in the NT that discuss identifying and dealing with the false prophet. Judas is a type of the false prophet that will come at the end of the age. Having him as part of the gospel story helps the believers. Now it is easy to see that you can be in the midst of God's move on Earth and even so, one of the twelve is a false prophet.

Whether Satan "enters" Judas as a Spirit, or whether the Spirit of disobedience was "operating within" Judas, what is the difference? I don't really know if that distinction is defined in the Bible.

Now this goes back to one of the other questions I asked. When Judas hanged himself I think we would all agree that was not Satan being crucified on the cross. So if Satan is in Judas, but not in Jesus, why was Satan crucified (or judged) on the cross?