Now's good - byHismercy

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What the quote from Lee shows, is that he has considered the practical impossibility of Satan being omnipresent, and would not say that, but the bible is clear that "Satan is everywhere" - how to reconcile that Satan is not everywhere, but multitudes of believers face attack from Satan daily?

Multitudes of believers claim "attacks from Satan" every day. This would only be possible if Satan is omnipresent. Therefore Christianity in general, must believe that Satan is everywhere. Think about it. If Satan is not omnipresent then what do believers have to worry about?

I introduced the idea of different kinds of omnipresence. God is omnipresent because He can do all things. Satan is limited but surely presents himself as a sort of god, with some sort of "manufactured" omnipresent ability.

Why does Satan need to be "manufactured" omnipresent? He simply corrupted humanilty and the law of sin and death now operates autonomously within the flesh. He doesn't need to be there at all. Of course, from time to time, he might send out his minions too.

As for the "attacks from Satan" saying, probably it is just pointing to the source of the attack. In fact, such saying is quite popular in the LC too. I think they sometimes might have misrecognized certain acts of God to be from Satan.

You know what, neither WL needs to be omnipresent to implant his teachings to the LCers. He doesn't even need the Internet. A publishing house and a team of minions will do.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Why does Satan need to be "manufactured" omnipresent? He simply corrupted humanilty and the law of sin and death now operates autonomously within the flesh. He doesn't need to be there at all. Of course, from time to time, he might send out his minions too.

As for the "attacks from Satan" saying, probably it is just pointing to the source of the attack. In fact, such saying is quite popular in the LC too. I think they sometimes might have misrecognized certain acts of God to be from Satan.

You know what, neither WL needs to be omnipresent to implant his teachings to the LCers. He doesn't even need the Internet. A publishing house and a team of minions will do.

Brett Burrowes explains how the idea of an autonomous, independent sinful nature/self is possibly wrong:

https://brettburrowes.wordpress.com/...and-the-flesh/

F. F. Bruce, the well-known British evangelical scholar, writes in his commentary that this means that those who sin have their spiritual source in the devil. So the origin of all sins (and not just Adam’s!) is in the devil himself and not in a defective or corrupted human nature.

Now I think about it, the bible does not say "resist your sinful nature", it does say however "resist the devil, and he will flee". (James 4:7).

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Brett Burrowes explains how the idea of an autonomous, independent sinful nature/self is possibly wrong:

https://brettburrowes.wordpress.com/...and-the-flesh/

F. F. Bruce, the well-known British evangelical scholar, writes in his commentary that this means that those who sin have their spiritual source in the devil. So the origin of all sins (and not just Adam’s!) is in the devil himself and not in a defective or corrupted human nature.

Now I think about it, the bible does not say "resist your sinful nature", it does say however "resist the devil, and he will flee". (James 4:7).

Nice to have different opinions. From the link:

Humans do not operate themselves, since Paul says that we are either operated by the spirit of sin which indwells us, “it is no longer I but sin” (Rom. 7:17, 20), or we are operated by the spirit of Christ

Let me ask you a question, how did Adam operate before he commit the first sin?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Let me ask you a question, how did Adam operate before he commit the first sin?

Probably operated by God. At first, I thought he was saying that mankind had no free will, but he clarifies that here:

There is no independently operating human self or nature in the New Testament. So does this abolish our free will? By no means, recognizing what we do not control enables us to recognize what is within our control: we have the choice to take God at His word and trust Him, or we can continue to trust Satan’s deception that we autonomously run our own lives.

His use of the word independent seems to mean not completely separate from either God or Satan. This reminds me that Lee called human beings a "minitature garden of Eden", and also reminds me as sometimes portrayed in movies, a little devil on one shoulder and a little angel on the other.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Brett Burrowes explains how the idea of an autonomous, independent sinful nature/self is possibly wrong:

https://brettburrowes.wordpress.com/...and-the-flesh/

F. F. Bruce, the well-known British evangelical scholar, writes in his commentary that this means that those who sin have their spiritual source in the devil. So the origin of all sins (and not just Adam’s!) is in the devil himself and not in a defective or corrupted human nature.

Now I think about it, the bible does not say "resist your sinful nature", it does say however "resist the devil, and he will flee". (James 4:7).

Evangelical,

Where does the devil flee to when we resist him? Does he exit the flesh and then come back later that night? Does he find a hidden corner of the flesh where we simply don't notice his indwelling of our beings? How can he both abide in us, and flee?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Where does the devil flee to when we resist him? Does he exit the flesh and then come back later that night? Does he find a hidden corner of the flesh where we simply don't notice his indwelling of our beings? How can he both abide in us, and flee?

byHismercy, for supposedly being such a "naive" sister , you have far more insight than I ever had. I accepted this teaching of Satan dwelling in my flesh for 30 years.

It is so sad to watch those who support Lee's errors wiggle, squirm, and lead us thru the maize, when the Bible says clearly that sin dwells in us. (Romans 7.17)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

byHismercy, for supposedly being such a "naive" sister , you have far more insight than I ever had. I accepted this teaching of Satan dwelling in my flesh for 30 years.

It is so sad to watch those who support Lee's errors wiggle, squirm, and lead us thru the maize, when the Bible says clearly that sin dwells in us. (Romans 7.17)

I know, Ohio. I want all my brothers and sisters in Christ to be released from deception of all kinds.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think it is obvious to most what Lee meant. If it helps, just replace Satan with "the spirit of Satan" and it all makes sense.

I have heard a number of saints who worked directly with Witness Lee state that he would sometimes take days to choose a specific word to make sure it most accurately conveyed the meaning he wanted with no unintended misunderstandings, so that everyone who read his books – from the most highly educated to the lowest, and from the most intelligent to the least (yes even those of low intelligence who you are claiming are so moronic as to take his statement at face value) – would not misunderstand what he meant. Lee was aware that those of varying levels of intelligence would be reading, and strove diligently to be readily understood by them all.

I have also read decades enough of his works to know that he was not one to save paper but instead frequently “hammered it home” when it came to repeating himself in ever so slightly different ways so that the reader would get his point and there would not be resulting interpretations of his interpretation. For example, “We must see that Christ is the good land. He is the good land! The good land is a person! Who is the good land? It is Christ! Hallelujah we have all seen that Christ is the good land!” (this is not a real example from the ministry but I think anyone who has read some of it will recognize that repetitive word-pattern).

He also had those helping him who would read, re-read, and scour the books before they were published to make sure that what was printed was really what he meant.

My point in saying that is to show that there is no reason for Lee not to have used “the spirit of Satan” if that is what he meant. To say, “if it helps, just replace [word he used] with [this other phrase he could have easily chosen to use to make it more accurate and understandable but did not]” denies the entire way he wrote everything else. He never left it up to the reader to synthesize the facts or carry out their own interpretation of his speaking, but stated what he meant simply, clearly, and repetitively. If Lee “obviously meant” “the spirit of Satan” then that is what would be stated (at least once)!

I’m not getting into whether Lee is right or wrong, but to start saying “it all makes sense if you put something different there that he did not write” causes it to unravel pretty fast.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

byHismercy, for supposedly being such a "naive" sister , you have far more insight than I ever had. I accepted this teaching of Satan dwelling in my flesh for 30 years.

It is so sad to watch those who support Lee's errors wiggle, squirm, and lead us thru the maize, when the Bible says clearly that sin dwells in us. (Romans 7.17)

Ohio,

You say you believe that sin dwells in you but you failed to define what sin is, or how it can dwell in you. In your view is sin an inanimate force like gravity? If so, how can sin deceive you?

Do you really disagree with the following explanation and if so, what is your alternative explanation? Or are you just disagreeing because Brother Lee said it and that is what you’re supposed to do here?

Drake

——————————————————————
“SIN BEING SATAN HIMSELF IN OUR FLESH

Now we need to see what sin is. Sin is not evil deeds such as hating and killing others. These are outward doings. They are not sin itself. Sin itself, according to the Bible’s revelation, is Satan himself. When sin came into the created man, Satan came into him. We can use the illustration of a black bookmark being placed within a book. The book may be likened to something created by God and the black bookmark to sin being placed within it. One day, Satan got into man. Sin is Satan getting into you.

Sin is a living person. Romans says that sin can deceive us, kill us (7:11), and lord it over us, that is, have dominion over us (6:12, 14). All these activities prove that sin is a living person. This living person is Satan. Satan outside of you is not sin. When Satan gets into you, that is sin. Satan in you is sin. We have to realize where Satan is in our being. He is in our flesh.

Paul says in Romans 7 that he practiced what he hated (v. 15). Since this was the case, he says, “It is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me” (v. 17). Paul uses the phrase no longer I twice. In Galatians 2:20 he says, “It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.” In Romans 7 he says, “It is no longer I...but sin that dwells in me.” Sin is another person within us. I may like to do something, but eventually I do not do it. Instead, I do what I hate. So it is no longer I, but another person who does it. This person is in my flesh. Paul says, “I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells” (v. 18). In my flesh nothing good dwells, because the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.

Some people do not believe that there is such a person as Satan in this universe. They do not know that this person, whom they do not believe exists, is in their flesh. They do not believe that Satan exists, and they do not know that while they are saying this, Satan is speaking in their speaking. They speak for Satan, whom they do not believe exists. Satan is in man’s flesh.” The Flesh and the Spirit, Witness Lee

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio, You say you believe that sin dwells in you but you failed to define what sin is, or how it can dwell in you. In your view is sin an inanimate force like gravity? If so, how can sin deceive you?

Do you really disagree with the following explanation and if so, what is your alternative explanation? Or are you just disagreeing because Brother Lee said it and that is what you’re supposed to do here? -- Drake

——————————————————————
“SIN BEING SATAN HIMSELF IN OUR FLESH

Now we need to see what sin is. Sin is not evil deeds such as hating and killing others. These are outward doings. They are not sin itself. Sin itself, according to the Bible’s revelation, is Satan himself. When sin came into the created man, Satan came into him. We can use the illustration of a black bookmark being placed within a book. The book may be likened to something created by God and the black bookmark to sin being placed within it. One day, Satan got into man. Sin is Satan getting into you.

Sin is a living person. Romans says that sin can deceive us, kill us (7:11), and lord it over us, that is, have dominion over us (6:12, 14). All these activities prove that sin is a living person. This living person is Satan. Satan outside of you is not sin. When Satan gets into you, that is sin. Satan in you is sin. We have to realize where Satan is in our being. He is in our flesh.

Paul says in Romans 7 that he practiced what he hated (v. 15). Since this was the case, he says, “It is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me” (v. 17). Paul uses the phrase no longer I twice. In Galatians 2:20 he says, “It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.” In Romans 7 he says, “It is no longer I...but sin that dwells in me.” Sin is another person within us. I may like to do something, but eventually I do not do it. Instead, I do what I hate. So it is no longer I, but another person who does it. This person is in my flesh. Paul says, “I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells” (v. 18). In my flesh nothing good dwells, because the flesh is fully possessed, taken over, by Satan as sin.

Some people do not believe that there is such a person as Satan in this universe. They do not know that this person, whom they do not believe exists, is in their flesh. They do not believe that Satan exists, and they do not know that while they are saying this, Satan is speaking in their speaking. They speak for Satan, whom they do not believe exists. Satan is in man’s flesh.” The Flesh and the Spirit, Witness Lee

This is an interesting window into the mind of a long time Lee follower:

I am not asked by Drake to prove or disprove something according to scripture, but whether it matches Lee's teachings or not. The teachings of Lee are his standard of reference, not the actual scripture.

I and others have already stated that Satan does not dwell within us, but rather sin does. I quoted a verse. I referenced an article by Nigel Tomes who followed Lee closely for decades. Tomes' article is extremely well written, well-documented, and based both on the word of God and Biblical scholars.

In usual fashion, reminiscent of previous LSMer posters, Drake belittles Tomes and dismisses his entire article:

Drake: I've read Dr. Tomes articles and frankly they are shoddy workmanship filled with leaps of logic, gaps, and contradictions. In general, his writings are verbose and attempt to establish credibility by overwhelming the reader with volume as opposed to substance. Sad for an economics professor who should know how to apply his secular discipline to make a compelling argument on matters related to God. But thanks for your exhortation opening the door to clarify my views on Dr. Tomes ramblings. Happy to do that anytime prompted else I probably would have ignored it.

Folks, this quote from Drake is standard LSM boilerplate to discredit their critics. I have seen it for decades. If Tomes is brief, he is condemned. If Tomes is thorough, then he is condemned as "verbose, overwhelming with volume." Notice how every phrase of this quote is no different than biased, political spin we hear in the daily news cycle.

Drake never sees Lee's "shoddy workmanship filled with leaps of logic, gaps, and contradictions." Concerning Satan dwelling in our flesh, Drake completely misses Lee's own "leaps" from sin to Satan Himself. But that is another story.

This is just one more in a series of speculations, long promoted by Lee, yet not supported by scripture. My goal for the "Recovery" is that they return to their scriptural roots, and de-leaven their ministry of exclusive and extra-biblical teachings which serve only to divide the body of Christ.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I am not asked by Drake to prove or disprove something according to scripture, but whether it matches Lee's teachings or not.

Either will suffice.

Prove or disprove your beliefs .....and I don't care how you do it.

Please proceed.

Drake

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is an interesting window into the mind of a long time Lee follower:

I am not asked by Drake to prove or disprove something according to scripture, but whether it matches Lee's teachings or not. The teachings of Lee are his standard of reference, not the actual scripture.

I and others have already stated that Satan does not dwell within us, but rather sin does. I quoted a verse. I referenced an article by Nigel Tomes who followed Lee closely for decades. Tomes' article is extremely well written, well-documented, and based both on the word of God and Biblical scholars.

In usual fashion, reminiscent of previous LSMer posters, Drake belittles Tomes and dismisses his entire article:Folks, this quote from Drake is standard LSM boilerplate to discredit their critics. I have seen it for decades. If Tomes is brief, he is condemned. If Tomes is thorough, then he is condemned as "verbose, overwhelming with volume." Notice how every phrase of this quote is no different than biased, political spin we hear in the daily news cycle.

Drake never sees Lee's "shoddy workmanship filled with leaps of logic, gaps, and contradictions." Concerning Satan dwelling in our flesh, Drake completely misses Lee's own "leaps" from sin to Satan Himself. But that is another story.

This is just one more in a series of speculations, long promoted by Lee, yet not supported by scripture. My goal for the "Recovery" is that they return to their scriptural roots, and de-leaven their ministry of exclusive and extra-biblical teachings which serve only to divide the body of Christ.

I am starting to realize this, Ohio. It really is as if the Lee ministry is elevated so far above the word of God for some folks. What a vile trap of Gods enemy! What a misstep! May the Lord Jesus lead them out of deception....may He keep us all from the enemys snare....

What a sad lie to reconcile as the truth....in spite of Gods word...to be set in yourself to believe that Satan lives in your flesh....how horrible! It is bad enough that we fell and have to cope with sin dwelling in our flesh!

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Witness Lee speaking was only infused with his breath, which apparently stank.