Now's good - byHismercy

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You should look it up in your own ministrybooks.org

I don’t do rock fetches for unfounded assertions.

Please provide the quotes you mentioned if they exist. Otherwise, your argument goes into the dust bin of unsubstantiated “Brother Lee said...” claims.

Drake

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

I don’t do rock fetches for unfounded assertions.

Please provide the quotes you mentioned if they exist. Otherwise, your argument goes into the dust bin of unsubstantiated “Brother Lee said...” claims.

Drake

The Economy of God. Ch 12 & Man and the Two Trees Ch 1

The body is something satanic and devilish because Satan dwells in this body. All the lusts are in this corrupted body, which is called the flesh. The Word reveals that the lust is “the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16). The flesh is the corrupted body full of lusts and indwelt by Satan. Now you see that the fall of man was not just a matter of man committing something against God but of man receiving Satan into his body. Satan, from the time of the fall, dwells in man. This is what happened when man partook of the second tree.

The Kingdom. Ch 10

We must apply the cross to our soul because Satan dwells in our flesh and seeks to control our soul. Our soul has been saturated with Satan himself. Our mind, will, emotion, self, soul-life, and relationship with the world have been saturated and permeated with Satan.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

The Economy of God. Ch 12 & Man and the Two Trees Ch 1

The body is something satanic and devilish because Satan dwells in this body. All the lusts are in this corrupted body, which is called the flesh. The Word reveals that the lust is “the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16). The flesh is the corrupted body full of lusts and indwelt by Satan. Now you see that the fall of man was not just a matter of man committing something against God but of man receiving Satan into his body. Satan, from the time of the fall, dwells in man. This is what happened when man partook of the second tree.

The Kingdom. Ch 10

We must apply the cross to our soul because Satan dwells in our flesh and seeks to control our soul. Our soul has been saturated with Satan himself. Our mind, will, emotion, self, soul-life, and relationship with the world have been saturated and permeated with Satan.

I think it is obvious to most what Lee meant. If it helps, just replace Satan with "the spirit of Satan" and it all makes sense. But still realizing that the "spirit of" is a person, not a thing or inanimate object. The idea of "seeking to control our soul" obviously implies intent, and is therefore a living person.

Just as Lee does not differentiate between the Spirit of God and God himself, neither does he differentiate between the spirit of Satan and Satan himself. Just as the Spirit of God is "God's person", the same can be said of Satan. Remember, the spirit of a person is their true self and identity. I have come across this "we are spirits in a body" idea in Christianity, so I think it is well accepted that this is the case.

So if people want to interpret this as the person of Satan as meaning the one individual fallen angel person who obviously is not omnipresent, then I guess that reflects more on their intelligence than Lee's.

Myself and any thinking person should understand this to mean the spirit of Satan.

The same one mentioned here:

Ephesians 2:2

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Considering that it says "the spirit" and not "the spirits", I don't see anyone arguing against Ephesians 2:2, saying "how can the spirit of Satan work in all the disobedient ones.. he's not omnipresent!" or "I don't have to worry about Satan influencing me, because he can only be in one place at a time!"

I believe the "spirit of Satan" has some omnipresent ability even though the fallen angel himself probably doesn't.

I say probably doesn't, because as an angel it is possible to travel faster than the speed of light, visiting every person on the planet within a minute, and give the appearance of omnipresence. A good analogy of how this is possible is the internet - information travelling at the speed of light visiting every person almost instantaneously.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think it is obvious to most what Lee meant. If it helps, just replace Satan with "the spirit of Satan" and it all makes sense. Just as Lee does not differentiate between the Spirit of God and God himself, neither does he differentiate between the spirit of Satan and Satan himself. Just as the Spirit of God is "God's person", the same can be said of Satan. Remember, the spirit of a person is their true self and identity. I have come across this "we are spirits in a body" idea in Christianity, so I think it is well accepted that this is the case.

So if people want to interpret this as the person of Satan as meaning the one individual fallen angel person who obviously is not omnipresent, then I guess that reflects more on their intelligence than Lee's.

Myself and any thinking person should understand this to mean the spirit of Satan.

The same one mentioned here:

Ephesians 2:2

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Considering that it says "the spirit" and not "the spirits", I don't see anyone arguing against Ephesians 2:2, saying "how can Satan work in all the disobedient ones.. he's not omnipresent!" or "I don't have to worry about Satan influencing me, because he can only be in one place at a time!"

I believe the "spirit of Satan" has some omnipresent ability even though the fallen angel himself probably doesn't.

I say probably doesn't, because as an angel it is possible to travel faster than the speed of light, visiting every person on the planet within a minute, and give the appearance of omnipresence. A good analogy of how this is possible is the internet - information travelling at the speed of light visiting every person almost instantaneously.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Does Satan has one body in this universe and we express it here on earth?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

According to the PhD thesis which I quoted before, it seems that the early church personified sin as Satan, and Augustine separated the two, so Lee is technically more correct, if we consider the early church's understand as more authoritative (just as we take their understanding of the Canon and the Trinity as authoritative).

I also believe that it is better to consider sin as Satan, then we can see the true nature of it, as not a dormant temptation living in us that we can choose to ignore or pay attention to, but as a living person with intent that we must battle and overcome. The enemy which Christians face is not "sin within and Satan without", it is ALL Satan - Satan within, Satan without. Judas Iscariot could easily have justified his sin as "it was the sin in me which caused me to betray Christ, not Satan", when Scripture clearly says satan entered him.

[byHismercy]

1 John 3:6-10

Whosoever abides in Him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteous is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

I can testify this word of God is true! He leads His children into a righteous life! Not into a life of living in sin. So you can see from His word that there are two "parents" here....God and the devil. A person born of God cannot be the child of the devil.

[byHismercy]

-----Evangelical quote---So if people want to interpret this as the person of Satan as meaning the one individual fallen angel person who obviously is not omnipresent, then I guess that reflects more on their intelligence than Lee's.----

Myself and any thinking person should understand this to mean the spirit of Satan.

My response to this statement is John 14:26.....But the Comfortor, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said to you.

The Lord Spirit has everything to do with understanding His word, not a man made measurement of the human intelligence quotient. I mean, what you are suggesting is that only a person or persons with a so called low i.q.will not be able to believe and receive what Lee was teaching. What silly nonsense.

John 14:17.....Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He dwells with you, and shall be in you.

Gods' word refutes Lees error.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

-----Evangelical quote---So if people want to interpret this as the person of Satan as meaning the one individual fallen angel person who obviously is not omnipresent, then I guess that reflects more on their intelligence than Lee's.----

Myself and any thinking person should understand this to mean the spirit of Satan.

My response to this statement is John 14:26.....But the Comfortor, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said to you.

The Lord Spirit has everything to do with understanding His word, not a man made measurement of the human intelligence quotient. I mean, what you are suggesting is that only a person or persons with a so called low i.q.will not be able to believe and receive what Lee was teaching. What silly nonsense.

John 14:17.....Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He dwells with you, and shall be in you.

Gods' word refutes Lees error.

What is indicative of low intelligence is people's inability to synthesize all the facts and jump to conclusions about Lee's beliefs. For example, here, Lee clarifies his position, stating clearly that he does not believe Satan to be omnipresent, and refers to Satan as the evil spirit working in mankind:

A General Sketch of the New Testament in the Light of Christ and the Church
By Witness Lee

"although we do not say that Satan is omnipresent, we must realize that he dwells in man's flesh" "Today Satan, the evil spirit, is working in mankind."

Christians implicitly believe Satan to be omnipresent anyway, because of his minions, his influence, his spirit. If he wasn't, then the warnings in Scripture could not apply to all believers. The chances of meeting the actual Satan would be very small, and few would have to worry about encountering such evil.

The next time two Christians say at the same time "Satan tempted me today", we should say "no, that's incorrect, he tempted only one of you, because he cannot be in two places at the same time". If we are serious about calling Lee's interpretation into question over this then we should apply that belief consistently. Clearly Lee does not believe Satan himself is omnipresent, but does believe his influence is everywhere which is as if Satan were everywhere. Most Christians believe like this, but they think that sin is some fault of man, rather than Satan.

I think we need to distinguish between actual omnipresence, and manufactured omnipresence. As God's counterfeit and evil copy-cat, Satan must give the appearance of omnipresence, a false omnipresence, and I think this is what Lee is referring to by Satan in the flesh. I believe this also can be achieved by having the ability to travel very fast and utilize hordes of minions.

[byHismercy]

I'm sorry, Evangelical....WLees opinion does not stand as facts for me. Gods' word stands as the truth, the facts. All I can see is that Lees opinions are contrary to what God Himself spoke.....He told us that He and the Father were one, and they would make an abode with us....He spoke clearly and plainly....He would make His home in our hearts....His Spirit will indwell believers....over and over He made these truths clear......why did He not speak explicitly that Satan would indwell me? You cannot convince me, brother.....I just got out of this cult and I am never going to rely on a mans interpretation of Gods word again.....I learned my lesson......bless you....

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I just got out of this cult and I am never going to rely on a mans interpretation of Gods word again.....I learned my lesson......bless you....

Amen

"And don't let anyone call you 'Teacher,' for you have only one teacher, the Messiah" -Matthew 23:10

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A General Sketch of the New Testament in the Light of Christ and the Church
By Witness Lee

"although we do not say that Satan is omnipresent, we must realize that he dwells in man's flesh" "Today Satan, the evil spirit, is working in mankind."

Nice reference. Think about it. If I say "although we do not say you are stupid, we must realize that you very often do stupid things.", do I think you are stupid or do I not?

I hope one day you would realize a seemingly unbreakable axiom is "dwelling" in you - WL is always right, he is right even when he is wrong.

Do you know why you seem always able to find something from WL's teaching to prove he is right? Because his teaching is in itself full of contradictions! And it needs lots of twisting in the terminology in order to make his teaching sound right. "Manufactured omnipresence"? Are you serious?

You stepped one major step forward when you said "If Lee..., then he is clearly wrong." in your earlier post. I am sorry that you stepped backward again so soon.

------------------------------------
Mat 5:37 But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no; for anything more than these is of the evil one.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Nice reference. Think about it. If I say "although we do not say you are stupid, we must realize that you very often do stupid things.", do I think you are stupid or do I not?

I hope one day you would realize a seemingly unbreakable axiom is "dwelling" in you - WL is always right, he is right even when he is wrong.

Do you know why you seem always able to find something from WL's teaching to prove he is right? Because his teaching is in itself full of contradictions! And it needs lots of twisting in the terminology in order to make his teaching sound right. "Manufactured omnipresence"? Are you serious?

You stepped one major step forward when you said "If Lee..., then he is clearly wrong." in your earlier post. I am sorry that you stepped backward again so soon.

------------------------------------
Mat 5:37 But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no; for anything more than these is of the evil one.

I think your example shows there is a difference between being stupid, and doing stupid things. In Christianity, I have heard something like this - "Even though you sin, I would not call you a sinner, but a Christian". What's the difference? So I could say, that God IS omnipresent, but Satan only "does" omnipresence.

What the quote from Lee shows, is that he has considered the practical impossibility of Satan being omnipresent, and would not say that, but the bible is clear that "Satan is everywhere" - how to reconcile that Satan is not everywhere, but multitudes of believers face attack from Satan daily?

Multitudes of believers claim "attacks from Satan" every day. This would only be possible if Satan is omnipresent. Therefore Christianity in general, must believe that Satan is everywhere. Think about it. If Satan is not omnipresent then what do believers have to worry about?