Deceptions on Campus

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Any controversy over the name is not the reason the group is not named simply CoC. The group believes that the "real name" of the group is "just Christians". Why then do you expect the group to name themselves something else on campus just because everyone else does? They are being consistent with their beliefs.

You should expect transparency like "everyone else does" bc it's the honest and straightforward thing to do. What are your thought's on why they would call themselves something other than the group name- the Lord's Recovery or The church in (random locality)? Yes, they're "Christians on campus" - they actually are! But why are they even saying that? Why not just call yourself the actual name of the group?

If other Christians besides ones who are employed by or attend the local church were organizing this club then CoC would seem acceptable as a description of the group based on varied backgrounds of Christians coming together to form this club.

We both know that's not the case. The only people involved in running this club are local church full-timers or members. Clearly, the tactic of a lack of transparency being used as a recruiting tactic is not hitting home for you- even though its a common practice with other groups when recruiting.

Transparency about who your group is made up of is the honest and straightforward way. As a former part of this group (admittedly I just worked with them several times) I was taught how to "inoculate" people against Witness Lee.

Are you still keeping your stance that they just called themselves that bc "they're Christians and they happen to be on campus?"

Being in a bubble has its benefits sometimes- I get it. The truth is sometimes hard to swallow and at one point, I shared your mindset. I hope your eyes, and others, will be opened someday to the truth behind CoC and their less than honest/healthy practices.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

You should expect transparency like "everyone else does" bc it's the honest and straightforward thing to do. What are your thought's on why they would call themselves something other than the group name- the Lord's Recovery or The church in (random locality)? Yes, they're "Christians on campus" - they actually are! But why are they even saying that? Why not just call yourself the actual name of the group?

Why don't the individuals who work in para-church organizations on campus declare their true denominational affiliations? This is a form of deception where newly converted students are deceived to think that Christianity is one unified body of believers but when they must decide on which church to attend each Sunday they find out they are all different denominations.

The simple reason is that "the Lord's recovery" (lower case r) and "The Church in .." are not names but descriptors and to take a name would be to de-name-iate, which the church avoids.

So it is unreasonable for anyone to expect them to use a name which goes against their core beliefs. This is a perfectly valid reason for them identifying as "just Christians".

Some have claimed that they try to hide something but why would the church try to hide who they are?

You remind me of denominational Christians who are just not satisfied with the answer "Christian" when they ask about your religion. They will ask again "yes, but what type of Christian, where do you worship?". It is not that they are trying to hide anything, they just don't have anything to hide (no secret denominational affiliation ,etc).

Remember that the idea of a denomination called "the Lord's Recovery" is the narrative of this forum, not the real world or the real local church. You are asking people to be transparent about something for which there is nothing to be transparent about.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Why don't the individuals who work in para-church organizations on campus declare their true denominational affiliations? This is a form of deception where newly converted students are deceived to think that Christianity is one unified body of believers but when they must decide on which church to attend each Sunday they find out they are all different denominations.

The simple reason is that "the Lord's recovery" (lower case r) and "The Church in .." are not names but descriptors and to take a name would be to de-name-iate, which the church avoids.

So it is unreasonable for anyone to expect them to use a name which goes against their core beliefs. This is a perfectly valid reason for them identifying as "just Christians".

Some have claimed that they try to hide something but why would the church try to hide who they are?

You remind me of denominational Christians who are just not satisfied with the answer "Christian" when they ask about your religion. They will ask again "yes, but what type of Christian, where do you worship?". It is not that they are trying to hide anything, they just don't have anything to hide (no secret denominational affiliation ,etc).

Remember that the idea of a denomination called "the Lord's Recovery" is the narrative of this forum, not the real world or the real local church. You are asking people to be transparent about something for which there is nothing to be transparent about.

To my knowledge, the common practice of any church campus ministry is stating the organization you’re associate with. At least that’s how it is on this campus- aside from CoC. You’re very good at missing the point I’m attempting to make. Maybe I’m not being clear or maybe you’re doing it intentionally. Either way, the point I was making was that it’s a common recruitment tactic with cults to have “recruiting arms” with different names other than the one the group is actually called.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

To my knowledge, the common practice of any church campus ministry is stating the organization you’re associate with. At least that’s how it is on this campus- aside from CoC. You’re very good at missing the point I’m attempting to make. Maybe I’m not being clear or maybe you’re doing it intentionally. Either way, the point I was making was that it’s a common recruitment tactic with cults to have “recruiting arms” with different names other than the one the group is actually called.

That may be the case for churches that are actually man-made organisations, but for a real church the group is actually called Christians. They are associated with the Lord Jesus. They are on campus. It's a common tactic for denominations to hide behind para-church organisations on campus, to hide their true denominational affiliations.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That may be the case for churches that are actually man-made organisations, but for a real church the group is actually called Christians. They are associated with the Lord Jesus. They are on campus. It's a common tactic for denominations to hide behind para-church organisations on campus, to hide their true denominational affiliations.

Evangelical,

You need to hear this man. You’re living in a fantasy land shaped by the LSM and your own decieved thoughts. I don’t expect you to take any care to my words, and that is fine. But you can’t plead ignorance of reality on that day.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Evangelical,

You need to hear this man. You’re living in a fantasy land shaped by the LSM and your own decieved thoughts. I don’t expect you to take any care to my words, and that is fine. But you can’t plead ignorance of reality on that day.

It's near Disney Land where Living Stream Ministry office is located. We rarely see the difference between them.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

It's near Disney Land where Living Stream Ministry office is located. We rarely see the difference between them.

Threatening people's realities and often identities results in erratic logic. Even though that's a known fact- that could be argued by them that they're the "exception to the rule" bc they're not a man-made organization (even though a publishing company makes the rules for them) and they're the real church or real group of believers.

Disillusioned and sad, yes. But, I'm sympathetic bc I used to be in those shoes and my family is. You can't argue logic when you're so addicted to the lifestyle your biases get in the way.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's a common tactic for denominations to hide behind para-church organisations on campus, to hide their true denominational affiliations.

Which denomination hides behind Intervarsity? Which denomination hides behind the Navigators? Which denomination hides behind Campus Crusade for Christ, now known as Cru? When I was in junior college I was a member of the Baptist Student Union. It's the LSM local churches of Lee that hide behind the name "Christians on Campus". Dear E, you have been in your Anaheim LSM rat hole for too long. It's long past time for you to retire.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by HERn

Which denomination hides behind Intervarsity? Which denomination hides behind the Navigators? Which denomination hides behind Campus Crusade for Christ, now known as Cru? When I was in junior college I was a member of the Baptist Student Union. It's the LSM local churches of Lee that hide behind the name "Christians on Campus". Dear E, you have been in your Anaheim LSM rat hole for too long. It's long past time for you to retire.

Why don't those groups use their REAL denominational name and reveal who they really are associated with. For example is there a denomination called Navigators? Is every person in that group a nondenom or do they attend some kind of dename-iation?

I know for fact that most workers in these groups attend some denomination every Sunday. As a student I would like to know their true affiliations especially if they are catholics or Mormons on a Sunday. They appear a cohesive body as Navigators or whatever but Sunday reveals they are still fragmented and divided with some denominational affiliation they do not tell students about.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That may be the case for churches that are actually man-made organisations, but for a real church the group is actually called Christians. They are associated with the Lord Jesus. They are on campus. It's a common tactic for denominations to hide behind para-church organisations on campus, to hide their true denominational affiliations.

Ah! So you believe that the local church isn't a man-made organization and is allowed to use the same recruiting tactics that cult's use by excluding the name of the party they're associated with- but they're exempt from this being a deceptive practice because they're a "real church group of Christians."

Got it! I respectfully disagree with your logic and it's apparently clear this back and forth isn't going anywhere. I'm going to move on now- thank you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Ah! So you believe that the local church isn't a man-made organization and is allowed to use the same recruiting tactics that cult's use by excluding the name of the party they're associated with- but they're exempt from this being a deceptive practice because they're a "real church group of Christians."

Got it! I respectfully disagree with your logic and it's apparently clear this back and forth isn't going anywhere. I'm going to move on now- thank you.

There is no denomination or group to be associated with. You seem to struggle with simple concepts. Probably your brain would explode if you lived during the time of Paul. You might demand Paul reveal his true denominational affiliation before he talks to students!

[Evangelical]

HERn wrote:

Which denomination hides behind Intervarsity? Which denomination hides behind the Navigators? Which denomination hides behind Campus Crusade for Christ, now known as Cru?


The answer is "I don't know", because both organizations do not reveal clearly.

This is from their respective wikipedia pages:

InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA is an inter-denominational, evangelical Christian campus ministry founded in 1941, working with students and faculty on U.S. college and university campuses.

The Navigators is a worldwide Christian para-church organization headquartered in Colorado Springs, Colorado

The term inter-denominational means "relating to more than one religious denomination". They do not state clearly which denominations they are including. Mormons? Catholics? Russian orthodox? Pentecostal?

The term "para-church" means "alongside the church". Again ,they are not clear about which churches they are "alongside".




Got questions.org says this about parachurch ministries:
https://www.gotquestions.org/parachurch-ministries.html

On the negative side is what was stated above in the definition: parachurch ministries are usually independent of church oversight. These organizations don’t have the same structure as the local church, which is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). The local church is God’s plan for the building up of the saints to do the work of the ministry, and He has gifted believers to accomplish that goal (Ephesians 4:11-12).


Biblically it is the local church, not inter-church or para-church organizations which God has equipped to do the work on campuses.

As far as I know, Christians on Campus is the only local church presence on campuses that would satisfy Ephesians 4:11-12 and 1 Timothy 3:15. This is because they are directly tied to the local church whereas others are only inter or para church organizations with no clear indication of where they stand in relation to the wider Body of Christ.

These groups are also not equipped to "add to the church" Acts 2:47 after making converts.

As revealed by one intervarsity advice website on "how to find a church:

https://intervarsity.org/blog/how-find-church-college

“How am I supposed to find the church that God has in mind for me?” There’s no exact answer, but there are a few actions you can take.

In the bible do we see new converts asking questions like "How am I supposed to find the church that God has in mind for me?" Of course not. There was only one church, and God only had one church in mind for all believers, just as there is only one Lord, Body, Spirit etc.

Furthermore, their advice is dreadful as they do not encourage asking God but asking Mr Internet:

"try the website www.9marks.org or your denomination’s website. "

Some of the testimonies is also funny:

"When I started college, I sought a big non-denominational church, but God surprised me with a mid-sized Presbyterian church. Each time, I began by asking myself, “Which place is most like me?” Then I progressed to asking God, “OK, fine, which place is most like what I need?”"

This sounds a lot like church shopping doesn't it? This advice reflects the general self-catering advice in Christianity that a "church is for me, my needs, wants and desires". But the bible is clear that God is and we should be "for the church".

Again, the early church believers did not have to wrestle with such questions, let alone ask God for a particular church, let alone expect God to provide them a church which is best for their own needs. Invarsity has shown that they do not understand the concept of the local church nor God's plan and desire to use the local church in building up the Body of Christ. Converts made through their ministry are left clue-less as to which church to attend on a Sunday and for the rest of their life after leaving college. Their advice will only build up the local denominations which cater to people's self-serving needs, and hence continue the plethora of "church flavors" available to choose from. I would not be surprised if some of the local denominations contribute financially to these organizations, with the expectation that these organizations will, in kind, return the favor by directing students to them on a Sunday. I also think that the volunteers and leaders in these organizations are often pastors or youth pastors themselves, attached to some local denomination, which will bias their advice and doctrine towards that particular denomination. They typically hide their denominational affiliations while working on the campuses, which makes it appear to students that Christianity is one big unified body. Yet, each Sunday, every volunteer or worker in these organizations will disperse to attend their respective preferred denominations, proving the divided reality.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There is no denomination or group to be associated with. You seem to struggle with simple concepts. Probably your brain would explode if you lived during the time of Paul. You might demand Paul reveal his true denominational affiliation before he talks to students!

Woah! Calm down. You're entitled to your opinion and you're obviously standing your ground but I assure you that I don't struggle with simple concepts! My point is valid because there IS a group to be associated with CoC due to the fact that ONLY full-timers and local church members run CoC.

If there were Christians from denominations or other Christians groups involved with CoC- then calling themselves CoC would make sense! Then, your argument that there is no specific group or denomination associated with them would apply! Please don't attack my logic or reasoning skills when you're (respectfully) coming to conclusions that don't add up based on what the situation is with CoC.

CoC is run by full-timers, who are adults...with college age kids in the local church assisting them. There are NO other groups who are included in heading up CoC and I seriously doubt they would welcome them or welcome any other material, other than the Bible, in CoC meetings besides LSM material. They are clearly using exclusive LSM material only, and only run by members in the local church. So, respectfully, you're incorrect to say that there is no distinct group CoC is associated with.

Also, I'm agreeing to disagree that they should be called CoC (as it's a common cult recruiting tactic to have recruiting groups with a different name than the group) and believe they should be called "the local church in <said locality> on campus" (or some equivalent that includes the local church name) because although the "work" is different- the people running it are one and the same.

Also, you think my head would explode if I lived in the age of Paul? Wow, well I'll have to agree to disagree again! By the grace of God, Paul saw religion for what it was.

What is the goal of CoC? I feel I have a pretty good idea but I think we should all think about that one....