Out of Egypt

[LifeGoesOn]

My Testimony - Part I

I am very encouraged by this forum and its ability to help me see the depth of the deception that I was a part of for close to 40 years in the LC. I am not bitter. I just want to see all the members of the Body who meet in the LC freed from the religious system known as the Lord's Recovery. I want them to experience all that God has for them, with members of His body outside of the LC, and know how amazing He is!

I was born and raised in the LC (Midwest). I was a member of the LC from the time of my birth in the late '70s until about two years ago (2014-15).

I was a "church kid" and truly believed in the Lord and His love for me ever since I was very young.

I got involved in music and playing in bands during junior high and did that throughout my young adult life. I went to all the SSOTs and many young people's conferences.

I never doubted Jesus' work on the cross or His love for me. I just didn't develop a real relationship with Him until at least my latter college years, and a very limited one at that.

In college I "did the college thing" and partied. Still went to meetings, but not having a solid relationship with the Lord, I wasn't "going on". However, the Lord never gave up on me.

After college I moved to the South and met with LC saints in the city I moved to. I lived with one foot in the world and one in the LC. I religiously went to meetings, read the Morning Revival and even the Life Studies. The Lord used my difficult work environments to cause me to seek Him. Eventually, as I sought Him more and more, the world started to lose its appeal. I needed reality and peace. The world couldn't offer that.

I continued to go to conferences and meetings. I served in the cleaning of the meeting hall. I even had a "vital group". There were times that I truly enjoyed the Lord with the saints and even at conferences (although not many).

In spite of doing "the rights things" and going to the meetings, my joy just slipped away. The "church life" was very superficial to me and I wanted LIFE, JOY and REALITY. I read about these things, listened to many messages on them and attended conferences about them, but they were not my reality. These things were, for the most part, just theory.

I got married to a sister in the LC, who had grown up outside the LC, in an unbelieving home. She was brought into the LC when she came to know the Lord. That was the only form of Christianity she knew. We pursued the Lord together and were content with our "church life" for a while. Eventually though, we became disillusioned and had spiritually flatlined.

We knew that there was more to the Christian life than what we had experienced up until that point. But, what could we do? Attend more meetings, more conferences? "Pray the ministry into our beings"? Do more "stuff" in the LC? None of it satisfied us.

The big meetings were DEAD. Even our home meetings, which we thought might be the answer, were DEAD. They were just a mini version of the big meetings (spiritual deadness in a small package).

My wife and I talked about this and how much we just dreaded going to the meetings. We even used our kids as an excuse to meet less and less often, especially when they were babies. We felt bad, but couldn't keep living in spiritual deadness. We wanted LIFE!!! We constantly heard about how bad "poor, degraded Christianity" was, but by the Grace of God we started doing the one thing that a LC'er is strongly warned not to...we listened to what christians outside of the LC had to say and actually started to study the Word of God without using the Recovery Version and its notes! Woah!!! The Lord speaks through members of the Body outside the LC....and it's LIFE too! We were so excited to see this and we're lead to watch and read many amazing things that He is speaking.

The thought that there is only ONE UNIQUE MINISTRY and one MOTA is LUDICROUS to me now! But, I believed it unquestioningly before. What spiritual blindness!

My wife and I were soooo happy to get life from a host of sources outside the LSM that I began to share my joy with members of the LC. I mean, if you had medicine for someone you loved who was dying, wouldn't you want to share it with them?

Well, let's just say that our sharing was not well received by the saints who I shared it with. I was told that it was "another Gospel" and "I don't need that because we already have all the 'high peak truths' in the LC." After a while I just stopped sharing. I did have one breakthrough though (my dad), which is awesome! Thank You Abba!

We knew we couldn't continue to go to dead meetings and read the LSM materials for much longer. For a while we would go to LC meetings for and share our new found joy with the saints. We would not tell them the sources though. . We wanted to encourage the saints and maybe change the system from within.
Eventually, we realized that we couldn't. We had to leave.

It's one thing to feel that way and want to do something about it, but quite another to break free from a lifetime of conditioning, culture, vocabulary, self-righteousness, (amongst a host of other things) and overcome one of the enemy's biggest obstacles to leaving the LC, the lie that "There's NOTHING for you if you leave the LC. Just outer darkness. You may as well not even meet." I believe that many in the LC realize all the reasons that they should leave, know that they are dying inside spiritually, but get stopped from leaving because of this satanic lie/roadblock.

The short version of my story is that Holy Spirit made it so clear to my wife and I that He was leading us out of the LC. As most of you who have spent a decent amount of time in the LC know, especially if you have family in it, it can be very difficult to leave. However, the Lord is awesome and lead us out without resistance from the LC leadership. No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings. We only had a couple of saints invite us over for a meal after we left, but they didn't even ask about us leaving. It was if we didn't even leave. The Lord made it really easy to leave.

I found out later from my mom that, "the saints wondered where we were", but none asked us about it.

That was the first stage of our new Christian life. Now what? We were told that everything else was "the outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth."

What lay ahead next was our "Out of Egypt and into the wilderness" stage. I will leave that for part two.

[Drake]

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

Drake, isn't it obvious from testimonies like this one by LifeGoesOn that what grips people and keeps people is not a vision, but fear.

Elders know that. Besides their "job" is not to actually shepherd the church, but to keep them connected to Headquarters in Anaheim.

Before LSM took over all the LC's, we actually looked forward to getting together, and we actually enjoyed the liberty of the Spirit.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, isn't it obvious from testimonies like this one by LifeGoesOn that what grips people and keeps people is not a vision, but fear.

Elders know that. Besides their "job" is not to actually shepherd the church, but to keep them connected to Headquarters in Anaheim.

Before LSM took over all the LC's, we actually looked forward to getting together, and we actually enjoyed the liberty of the Spirit.

It actually is quite telling that LC elders will ignore those who have left or 'disappeared'. Given the job description of elders, it is completely reasonable to expect them to at least contact someone to see why they're gone. But in the LC that rarely happens. And I think it's because elders realize that once someone has mustered up the courage to look outside the confines of the LC, that person is a lost cause as far as they're concerned.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

Well, let's just say that our sharing was not well received by the saints who I shared it with. I was told that it was "another Gospel" and "I don't need that because we already have all the 'high peak truths' in the LC."

Publicly and privately I have shared my analogy of the "high peaks" versus the low gospel.
High peaks equates to flying in a 747 or 777 at 40,000+ feet. You're at such a high elevation, you miss out what's happening at ground level.
Low peaks equates to being at ground level whether you're in a train or auto.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I found out later from my mom that, "the saints wondered where we were", but none asked us about it.

That's often the case. Saints may wonder or may assume, but don't take initiative to ask directly.
Summer of 2013 prior to my uncle's cancer returning I had a dinner with my uncle and aunt. There was much of the same..."wondering what happened to John Ingalls".
Similar situation for me. When I stopped meeting with the Church in Bellevue, six months went by before anyone asked a direct question.
Others may make assumptions that "you're meeting with the opposers". I've had that happen too.

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

??? Of course I would if I were LifeGoesOn. The elders ought to have pastoral hearts and if they recognise their sheep have gone somewhere else they would have taken notice with care and love. The body is knit together in love. In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace. If they leave to other assemblies we would be happy to also to pray for them and wish them well.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

??? Of course I would if I were LifeGoesOn. The elders ought to have pastoral hearts and if they recognise their sheep have gone somewhere else they would have taken notice with care and love. The body is knit together in love. In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace. If they leave to other assemblies we would be happy to also to pray for them and wish them well.

Very true. As a follow-up to what I posted earlier, along with what Terry posted, it seems like the tendency to ignore those who have 'disappeared' from the LC is something that is quite deliberate.

As I see it, it is meant to send a message that whatever the concern/issue might have been, it was not legitimate. And by failing to even acknowledge the person that left, elders succeed in minimizing the issues that cause people to leave the LC. It goes to show that they are driven by certain motives. There is no reason they can't wish someone well who chooses to leave. Actually, if the LC were capable of reform (which it isn't), it would be in their best interest to try to do an "exit interview" when someone leaves the LC.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

Isn't that why they take attendance in the meetings?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I found out later from my mom that, "the saints wondered where we were", but none asked us about it.

I had the exact same experience. Complete disconnect, no questions about where we were except (as ONE friend relayed) they were all asking about us! After all the time together at homes, meals, "fellowship", meetings, "trainings", time together outside of church...

Most are willfully deceived - they already know why I left, because they've seen the same stuff. Its all a farce, a hoax, smoke and mirrors, a ...

As one person asked on this thread, "Did you expect them to?". I knew they wouldn't - that opens a discussion that could jeopardize their deception.... No room for that. No questions, tow the line....

Would I expect a group of true Christian believers (or an elder) to follow-up? The answer is so obvious it's kinda funny it was actually asked - and also reveals the heart of the one asking the question. Maybe they lost my number? haha

[JJ]

Thanks for sharing Part 1 of your experience, LifeGoesOn.

Your Part 1 experience is very similar to many others who have also left TLR after many years through the prompting of the Holy Spirit and common sense

I look forward to Part 2.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

??? Of course I would if I were LifeGoesOn. The elders ought to have pastoral hearts and if they recognise their sheep have gone somewhere else they would have taken notice with care and love. The body is knit together in love. In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace. If they leave to other assemblies we would be happy to also to pray for them and wish them well.

Their sheep?

... and yet, you are not Lifegoeson. I'd like to know what he expected.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Their sheep?... and yet, you are not Lifegoeson. I'd like to know what he expected.
Thanks
Drake

Wow. You are really quite arrogant. If you are so picky about words let me say yes His sheep but the ones sheperded by LC elders. Is that fair enough? I'm not LifeGoesOn and yet am I now allowed myself to express my own thoughts here? I was someone who's like LifeGoesOn in which when I left, "No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings." Why would you just wanna hear him not me? Don't you LC love saying "everyone has a portion"? Isn't everyone encouraged to share. If I resonant with something can I not share a member of the body? Your "thanks" is really ignorant sounding like you are offended by what I say and want to shut me off. If you don't want me to share anything just because you didn't ask, please just ignore me and I won't interrupt your conversation with LifeGoesOn (by the way if you just want his answer not others' you should have just messaged him in private) thanks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Their sheep?

... and yet, you are not Lifegoeson. I'd like to know what he expected.

Thanks
Drake

Drake, you have studied the Greek. The word shepherd, or pastor, denotes a strong bond with his flock of sheep. Hebrews says "they watch over souls and will give account."

One of the most outstanding failures in the LC program was the elders forced allegiance to headquarters (and I witnessed that in both Anaheim and Cleveland) at the expense of (1) the saints, (2) their own conscience, and (3) the Lord Himself.

The Lord's Recovery should rightly be called the "church of Witness Lee." It is not the church of God or the church of the saints, which descriptions abound in the NT.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Wow. You are really quite arrogant. If you are so picky about words let me say yes His sheep but the ones shepherded by LC elders. Is that fair enough? I'm not LifeGoesOn and yet am I now allowed myself to express my own thoughts here?

Hello, are you the same poster in post #7 of this thread?

It really helps readers such as myself to connect posts from the same writer. If you prefer not to register, could you at least put some "name" description on your posts to link them together.

Thanks.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Wow. You are really quite arrogant. If you are so picky about words let me say yes His sheep but the ones sheperded by LC elders. Is that fair enough? I'm not LifeGoesOn and yet am I now allowed myself to express my own thoughts here? I was someone who's like LifeGoesOn in which when I left, "No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings." Why would you just wanna hear him not me? Don't you LC love saying "everyone has a portion"? Isn't everyone encouraged to share. If I resonant with something can I not share a member of the body? Your "thanks" is really ignorant sounding like you are offended by what I say and want to shut me off. If you don't want me to share anything just because you didn't ask, please just ignore me and I won't interrupt your conversation with LifeGoesOn (by the way if you just want his answer not others' you should have just messaged him in private) thanks.

Unreg,

You have way overreacted.

This is an open forum. You are welcome to share your views here. I have no interest in shutting you down. I posted publicly and you may respond publicly. Rightfully so.

Second, the views I express here are my own. I am not a spokesperson for the churches in the Lords Recovery. I have a viewpoint just like you.

I want to know if Lifegoeson, the originator and public poster of " No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attended the meetings" expected the elders to reach out.

Please continue. I certainly have no objections but even if I were so inclined it is irrelevant.

Drake

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

I did indeed expect them to reach out to me and family. I'm not mad, just think it's odd that there has been zero inquiry as to why life long members of TLR "disappeared" or whatever the LC terminology for leaving is.


BTW, there needs to be a thread on LC terminology/vocabulary.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

BTW, there needs to be a thread on LC terminology/vocabulary.

We've done those threads before.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We've done those threads before.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We've done those threads before.

How about this thread The LC Lexicon

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about this thread The LC Lexicon

I'm reading it now. Wow. It's amazing how nutty the LC lingo is and how it still is, to some extent, part of my lingo. Every time I catch myself using LSM terminology I try to make a conscious effort to never repeat it.

I threw away EVERY SINGLE piece of LSM literature I owned, even my Bibles.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

??? Of course I would if I were LifeGoesOn. The elders ought to have pastoral hearts and if they recognise their sheep have gone somewhere else they would have taken notice with care and love. The body is knit together in love. In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace. If they leave to other assemblies we would be happy to also to pray for them and wish them well.

Elders I knew or knew of that had pastoral hearts were forced out nearly 30 years ago. Even one who stayed in a diminished capacity such as Francis Ball had a pastoral heart. I have found many of the current elders have not exhibited that. They may say we love brother "so and so", but won't go visit him. The present function of an elder is more of a local administrator than it is being shepherd. Which current elder would go to an assisted living facility or a nursing home to visit a former LC member? I can think of one former elder who did such a thing in his visits to Southern California.
************************************************** ****
"In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace."
Who ever did such a thing to "quarantined" brothers? Or even that simply stopped meeting?
Often my view of the current status of Local Churches is as the elders, deacons, etc they have the attitude "we set the meeting times. Those that stop meeting, they know where we are. If they want to meet with us, we're right here."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

As I see it, it is meant to send a message that whatever the concern/issue might have been, it was not legitimate. And by failing to even acknowledge the person that left, elders succeed in minimizing the issues that cause people to leave the LC. It goes to show that they are driven by certain motives. There is no reason they can't wish someone well who chooses to leave. Actually, if the LC were capable of reform (which it isn't), it would be in their best interest to try to do an "exit interview" when someone leaves the LC.

Yes, there's a tendency to trivialize issues. We've heard the terms, "unfulfilled ambition, unforgiven offenses, etc". Rather the stance many elders have taken is "not to make an issue of persons, matters, or things". Quite often why some end up leaving is due to unaddressed issues that had been stonewalled by elders. When reconciliation is discouraged from being sought, it places a brother or sister in a position of either pressing the matter or to find an alternative assembly to fellowship with.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

"In our church whenever a brother or a sister has not been in touch for awhile in meetings or other settings we would always reach out to see what he or she is up to. Not to condemn but to offer love and grace."
Who ever did such a thing to "quarantined" brothers? Or even that simply stopped meeting?

Witness Lee himself taught all the LC leaders how to treat those who refused to kowtow to him, using the example he established with John Ingalls -- it is a calloused stone-hearted shunning very similar to the Amish and the Darby Exclusives.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

When reconciliation is discouraged from being sought, it places a brother or sister in a position of either pressing the matter or to find an alternative assembly to fellowship with.

For a ministry which so prides itself in "2-Step Reconciliation" according to II Cor 5.20 Footnotes, it is truly ironic to see so little reconciliation between leaders, even those who had been together for 10-20-30-40 years.

LSM leaders, including WL himself, have attempted to shortcut the most elementary of Christian lessons, i.e. love, forgiveness, repentance, reconciliation, etc. and then attempt to bribe their consciences and think they have arrived, while the rest of the body of Christ rightly honors our Lord's exemplary prayer, "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

Quite dramatic!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSM leaders, including WL himself, have attempted to shortcut the most elementary of Christian lessons, i.e. love, forgiveness, repentance, reconciliation, etc.

Emphasis mine, but that my brother is what LSM leaders probably defer to as "the low gospel".
Reportedly some FTTA trainees happened to knock on the front door of a quarantined brother and RK was reportedly livid upon finding out so that particular neighborhood was to be avoided.
So much for forgiveness ,repentance, etc.

[Drake]

"Emphasis mine, but that my brother is what LSM leaders probably defer to as "the low gospel"."

Not really. I've never heard it applied to those Christian matters. The low gospel rather refers to the gospel when preached as fire insurance, when you die you will go to heaven, you will avoid hell, that sort of thing.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Actually there is no such thing as "the low gospel". This is probably the point Paul was making to the Galatians in saying "you are..turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ." I think what Terry is referring to is the tangible effect the Gospel has on our behavior and attitude towards our fellow human beings (stated as "love, forgiveness, repentance, reconciliation") If we cannot see tangible, observable actions in our lives and in the lives of others, we can be sure that we are not walking "in step with the truth of the gospel" (Gal 2:14)
-

One of the most discouraging things about the LC is its ability to simply forget people who have been a part of their groups for years and let them slip away--not even bothering to find out if they are ill, if they have lost jobs or home, etc. And why? Honestly, after many years within the group, I would say it is because they honestly don't care at all. Caring is proven by contact. No contact, no caring. Oh, there are exceptions, of course. If you are a popular elder, if you are a doctor or prominent lawyer that has joined, or if you have a large and luxurious home that they have enjoyed using for gatherings, you MIGHT get more attention and concern--contrary to what the Book of James says to do. I knew of a young man who became very ill to the point of being bed-ridden for 6 weeks. Only one kind older man even called to check on him during the illness. Thank God for that one kind older man!

I know of another single sister who had a stroke. She was put in a facility not too far from her home group's meeting place. Do you think anyone calls or comes to visit? So far only two! One older sister calls her most evenings to read the HWFMW with her and another young sister brought her fast food several times but ceased to go. What is sad is that she will NOT meet with the small Baptist church group that comes in faithfully every Sunday afternoon to sing and share from the Bible. Why? Well, she declares that she is absolute for the church--this church who does not care one bit for her! This--after she had been so faithful in attendance for so long.

It is almost as if they believe in Darwin's theory of evolution--but in the spiritual realm. Some "species" are going to make it and thrive; others will not thrive and, therefore, are not worth any focus at all. They shake off any encumbrance that might keep them from reaching the goal and sometimes other saints are perceived as that encumbrance. Can you imagine what the LORD will say to them at judgment? He--who said he would leave the 99 and go looking for that one lost sheep??! Caring and love ARE the goal!

So, this thing about being the Church of Brotherly Love (Philadelphia), which they honestly and arrogantly believe they are (I shake my head here), is a joke. They, thinking themselves spiritual, fail the most basic test--that of loving and caring for one another. I have seen this over and over and know that when my time comes to be unable to attend for one reason or another, only my spouse will be there for me. Such a "church", eh?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Actually there is no such thing as "the low gospel". This is probably the point Paul was making to the Galatians in saying "you are..turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ." I think what Terry is referring to is the tangible effect the Gospel has on our behavior and attitude towards our fellow human beings (stated as "love, forgiveness, repentance, reconciliation") If we cannot see tangible, observable actions in our lives and in the lives of others, we can be sure that we are not walking "in step with the truth of the gospel" (Gal 2:14)
-

Absolutely agree. That is probably why I have never heard anyone apply the low gospel characterization to those matters of the Christian life,

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Emphasis mine, but that my brother is what LSM leaders probably defer to as "the low gospel".

Reportedly some FTTA trainees happened to knock on the front door of a quarantined brother and RK was reportedly livid upon finding out so that particular neighborhood was to be avoided. So much for forgiveness, repentance, etc.

Even though Drake feebly denies this, for decades I regularly heard disparaging comments about the whole of Christianity from WL himself, the Blendeds, and the rank and file who were taught this. The "low gospel" was regularly applied to the rest of Christianity, and the high gospel was attach only to those of us who were connected to Lee's ministry. Later on, as a diversionary tactic to the many voices who who called for a return to the narrow way of life, WL went a step further and began his "high peak" ministry. Those who bought in became convinced that they would "become G(g?)od."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Even though Drake feebly denies this, for decades I regularly heard disparaging comments about the whole of Christianity from WL himself, the Blendeds, and the rank and file who were taught this. The "low gospel" was regularly applied to the rest of Christianity, and the high gospel was attach only to those of us who were connected to Lee's ministry. Later on, as a diversionary tactic to the many voices who who called for a return to the narrow way of life, WL went a step further and began his "high peak" ministry. Those who bought in became convinced that they would "become G(g?)od."

Ohio's post and what UntoHim's comment regarding myself ("I think what Terry is referring to is the tangible effect the Gospel has on our behavior and attitude towards our fellow human beings (stated as "love, forgiveness, repentance, reconciliation") is spot on.
Key point to make regardless what scripture says, Witness Lee while alive, the blended brothers, and elders in each locality form LSM/LC public opinion and LSM/LC practices. If they condemn/speak harshly of brothers/sisters, that becomes a practice. If their behavior if one of forgiveness, love, reconciliation, etc then that becomes a LC practice. Frankly I haven't seen it and I haven't heard it in the times I've visited publicly and those whose homes I've visited privately. Only ones I've heard expressing love towards those who've left the LC fellowship are those who haven't been meeting in the Local Churches for a period of time as I witnessed in 2013.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I did indeed expect them to reach out to me and family. I'm not mad, just think it's odd that there has been zero inquiry as to why life long members of TLR "disappeared" or whatever the LC terminology for leaving is.


BTW, there needs to be a thread on LC terminology/vocabulary.

LifeGoesOn,

I think they knew why you left, didn't they? Your views were not totally concealed under the circumstances you described.

Drake

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Drake

LifeGoesOn,

I think they knew why you left, didn't they? Your views were not totally concealed under the circumstances you described.

Drake

You know, I can only guess as to why they didn't reach out to me and my family since I never made any negative public statements (in the meetings or otherwise) regarding the LC or LSM and it's leadership. We just eventually stopped going. We just faded out.

[Drake]

LifeGoesOn,

The elders knew why you left based on your testimony, .....


"My wife and I were soooo happy to get life from a host of sources outside the LSM that I began to share my joy with members of the LC. I mean, if you had medicine for someone you loved who was dying, wouldn't you want to share it with them?

Well, let's just say that our sharing was not well received by the saints who I shared it with. I was told that it was "another Gospel" and "I don't need that because we already have all the 'high peak truths' in the LC.""

... and they did not reach out to you after you left because you had gleafully gone your own way.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

LifeGoesOn,

The elders knew why you left based on your testimony, .....

"My wife and I were soooo happy to get life from a host of sources outside the LSM that I began to share my joy with members of the LC. I mean, if you had medicine for someone you loved who was dying, wouldn't you want to share it with them?

Well, let's just say that our sharing was not well received by the saints who I shared it with. I was told that it was "another Gospel" and "I don't need that because we already have all the 'high peak truths' in the LC.""

... and they did not reach out to you after you left because you had gleefully (sick) gone your own way.

Drake

LifeGoesOn,

You shared your joy with the saints? How dare you! What were you thinking?

Why would they want that when they have already "become God" according to their 'high peak truths' from the HWFMR?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

... and they did not reach out to you after you left because you had gleafully gone your own way.

Drake

Sounds a little smug, Drake, don't you think?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

You know, I can only guess as to why they didn't reach out to me and my family since I never made any negative public statements (in the meetings or otherwise) regarding the LC or LSM and it's leadership. We just eventually stopped going. We just faded out.

That's usually how it goes. Yet all it takes in one person to take it up as an interest to continually visit to gain a brother or sister. That was my dad's situation. He was never negative. Never critical, but consistently in the ministry. When my dad stopped meeting, who came to visit? No one I saw while I was living in California. You just fade away until one person instead of "just wondering what happened to brother _____" takes the initiative to go visit. Imagine that gaining a person by visiting them.

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I'm reading it now. Wow. It's amazing how nutty the LC lingo is and how it still is, to some extent, part of my lingo. Every time I catch myself using LSM terminology I try to make a conscious effort to never repeat it.
I threw away EVERY SINGLE piece of LSM literature I owned, even my Bibles.

YES!
After the Lord began to reveal all the LC hidden things of darkness to me, I was so revulsed by what I was beginning to see in the LRC, I BURNED every piece of published material with WLs' name on it, (thankfully it is really cold here in the winter and there is always a fire going) including all my Recovery version bibles....the tangible peace of my Lord Jesus was upon me for the rest of that day....and as the reeling, confusion, sense of betrayal and loss of friendships valued grew out of our 'shunning'....the Most Wonderful Lord began His ministering to me....He has been speaking to me consistently through His word....telling me, it is not He who abandoned us, but rather, another spirit leading those in the LC. Part of my healing process has been reading the testimonies here...please keep talking! It is so therapeutic for me!

Whenever I reflect back on our experience with the saints...and that deep pain surfaces, lately, I come here...I find that what happened to us is simply business to the LRC. Makes it a little less personal. I find that I choose to reject the shaming...and as time passes, I am made more and more aware of His presence sheltering and guarding my family, (my young children, who have chosen to put their trust in their Lord Jesus) from the erroneous teachings...of which I was so oblivious for 20+ years...praise Jesus, folks! He shines His holy light on darkness! Let every thing with breath praise the Lord!

[eDh22]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

My Testimony - Part I
As most of you who have spent a decent amount of time in the LC know, especially if you have family in it, it can be very difficult to leave. However, the Lord is awesome and lead us out without resistance from the LC leadership. No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings. We only had a couple of saints invite us over for a meal after we left, but they didn't even ask about us leaving. It was if we didn't even leave. The Lord made it really easy to leave.

I'm so glad to hear that you were able to leave so easily. Appropriately enough, at a Passover Seder dinner last night, I was sharing with a friend what is was like to leave the LCs and being forced to sever ties with much that was so dear with me. However, as with the Passover, I realized how healthy it was to cut ties and move on.

I still do have my recovery version bibles, because I do like to read the versions in the text of my childhood from time to time, because my young LC friends had written notes in the cover pages, and because I like to read through the footnotes to have written evidence of poor teachings that convince me that it was right to leave and to keep pressing on.

Also, wonderful that you and your wife left together. Heartbreaking how many couples have not survived. And that your children were minimally impacted by the indoctrination. You set a good example to them of seeking. Be sure to share the story with them!

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Eyesopened

YES!
After the Lord began to reveal all the LC hidden things of darkness to me, I was so revulsed ....He has been speaking to me consistently through His word....telling me, it is not He who abandoned us, but rather, another spirit leading those in the LC.

Part of my healing process has been reading the testimonies here...please keep talking! It is so therapeutic for me!

There is a WICKED religious spirit that has set up its throne in the LC. Today is Resurrection Sunday. As a "young person" I remember mocking other Christians who would wish me a happy Easter or even say with joy, "He is risen!". I'd be so proud of the fact that I was better than those in "PDC" (poor degraded Christianity), celebrating Jesus' death and resurrection.

I was a TOTAL PHARISEE! What?!! I did't celebrate what Christ did for me and I mocked those who did? That's nuts!


I agree bout the therapeutic value of all the testimonies.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

There is a WICKED religious spirit that has set up its throne in the LC. Today is Resurrection Sunday. As a "young person" I remember mocking other Christians who would wish me a happy Easter or even say with joy, "He is risen!". I'd be so proud of the fact that I was better than those in "PDC" (poor degraded Christianity), celebrating Jesus' death and resurrection.

I was a TOTAL PHARISEE! What?!! I did't celebrate what Christ did for me and I mocked those who did? That's nuts!

Even though I disagree with Easter a mocking attitude is not the right attitude.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This can describe the "go to church at Easter" Christians or unbelievers who go to church only at Easter/Christmas to honor God with their lips, but not regularly every week as Christ commanded...traditions!

Lifegoeson, I am so thankful, you cannot imagine how much so, that this community of people is here having some idea of what we are currently going through....and talking about it all! I truly believe the Lord led me here...if I didn't know there were so many people who have suffered some version of the shunning by the LC, I just think I would be in so much confusion right now. I have been 'lurking' here, reading all your testimonies, having major realizations, and being touched through Gods' word....praise Jesus and His shed blood, He Himself, our passover. I love Him so much.

I feel really deceived by the LC. We were extended the hand of warmth, friendship, and fellowship to have it yanked away as cold as ice when we didn't match their expectations...it was all a ruse. I think I read somewhere here that if you cannot be reconciled into the ministry of Lee, for the LC 'body life', you are not worth their wasting their time on. Truer words were never spoken. We have been dumped by saints we considered as family. In fact, my children grew up knowing one particular sister, considered her quite their grandma, and often slipped up and called her grandma before they called her by her given name, who claimed to love us, whom we loved! For the crime of not driving 35 miles to the nearest LC....the messed up thing is, I will never really know if she really loved us, or if it was all, (10 years!!) a relationship solely to get us in, or keep us in, or who even knows.

All I know is now I am left with emotions I don't want to become a root of bitterness. I want the Lord to supply the forgiveness, total and complete! I don't want to be burdened with this intense desire to punch some people in the nose....but rather to be in obedience to Him, forgiving as He has forgiven me of all! Every parent knows, I am sure, when your children are affected....just nobody should mess with my kids is all I am saying. The Lord is definitely working for this evil to turn it to good for us...I utterly believe His promises, and the best part of all of this so far is, as I lose faith in that ministry, which I once considered my ministry, and as I lose all faith in the saints I knew, He is here with me, if possible increasing, I guess I should say, perfecting my faith in Him! and my reliance on Him.

I have always really only loved His word, not so much the ministry materials, and distance, and other things, have always kept me from being immersed completely in the LC culture...I think that is why I was oblivious to their habit of quarantining the believers, oblivious to the uprisings, all of the divisions....I never saw it coming!! I really thought that we were together because we all loved the Lord. I thought they knew and believed that believers are one as His body...but this conditional for the LC group...in fact, I believe we are still one with these LC believers, except they refuse to speak to me anymore. It is indeed a satanic lie they are under. Now I know that Gods' name is my banner, and they should be flying their real name 'WITNESS LEE OR THE HIGHWEE', (sorry��) high above their heads, waving it proudly, actually not so much proudly as truthfully. No! That should be on the banners at every conference! Also, how about a banner that reads, 'WE DON'T FELLOWSHIP WITH JUST ANY HOLY SPIRIT REGENERATED BELIEVER!' Give us some warning, for pity's sake!

Jehovah- Nissi, meaning, the Lord Is My Banner or YHWY-Nissi....Isaiah 11:10 prophesies that the root of Jesse, Jesus, will stand as a banner for the peoples.

Praise Jesus, I now also realize that I should have been testing everything, absolutely everything against Gods' word!! I doubt I will ever be negligent on that point again...all the times I felt like, hey...I don't think that is scriptural, or thought to myself, I don't see that in Gods' word...but I let it slide because I was surrounded by real believers whom I knew loved Him. I should have believed in His equipping of me, in reality, I am fully equipped to understand and discern the truth in His word by the Holy Spirit!! I thought they must know better as more mature believers....I will trust His word only from now on...so many good things will come of this, I just trust Him!! Thank you, LGO, you are the first person, I guess people, really, I have really spoken to about this...Jesus name is the highest name in all creation!

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Eyesopened

Thank you, LGO, you are the first person, I guess people, really, I have really spoken to about this...Jesus name is the highest name in all creation!

You’re welcome. I am only trying to be obedient to the Holy Spirit and I am happy to contribute to help others to see that there is life, real Life outside of the LC.

I want to encourage you right now and prophesy the word of the Lord (YHVH Nissi) over you...

“Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow YOU all the days of YOUR life, And YOU will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.”
**
Psalms‬ *23:6‬ *(NASB‬‬)

[ABrotherinFaith]

LifeGoesOn,
Since your and my experience in the LC is pretty similar, I am looking forward to reading your part II.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Drake

"No elders even reached out to us to see why we no longer attend the meetings."

Did you expect them to?

Drake

I know we are not supposed to have so called natural relationships or what is strangely called natural preference in the LC, but this must be a rhetorical question.

If not the elders, at least some of the people LifeGoesOn and I grew up with, those who took care of us as kids and were there throughout our whole lives, not to mention those whose kids we later served at camps and Saturday night meetings when we were older. Not 1 person, not one called even after two weeks, three weeks, four weeks to see if we were sick or needed help, to see if we were going through marriage trouble, trouble with the kids, financial difficulties, nothing. No one called to grab bite to eat (which they previously often had). No one called get the kids together and play (which they often had).

We stopped meeting with the LC more than a year ago. A few months in with our current group, my wife and I were there for two weeks straight. Sickness and a short vacation. They called to see if we were ok. They emailed my wife just to tell her they had missed her and her small group. Did I expect them to call, to email? Not really because of the above experiece, but it was so comforting when they did.

[Drake]

-1

ABF,

That’s different.... unless you left like LifeGoesOn. See #36

Drake

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

You’re welcome. I am only trying to be obedient to the Holy Spirit and I am happy to contribute to help others to see that there is life, real Life outside of the LC.

I want to encourage you right now and prophesy the word of the Lord (YHVH Nissi) over you...

“Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow YOU all the days of YOUR life, And YOU will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.”
**
Psalms‬ *23:6‬ *(NASB‬‬)

Thank you, LGO, for the verse and the encouragement. I love to receive both. I am so excited and trepidatious, simultaneously, to reach out and find a new assembly of believers to join in with. I am a bit amazed, frankly, at how easily deceived I was...I actually believed the LC retoric about the rest of 'christianity' and for many years was unable to meet with the LC because of my inability to prophesy in meetings...what I like to think of as public speaking....and believing there was absolutely nothing for me in any other assembly of saints. I was poisoned against my fellow believers in Christ, utterly. Now, as I look to Jesus for leading, I am drawn to meet in a Baptist assembly...kinda strange because I have never been in a Baptist church! I have a fresh and wonderful new desire to meet with every believer, with no man made boundaries on who is appropriate....ground or no ground. Name or no name. Cannot even imagine how I fell for the lie. Jesus' name alone is the name I will search for in people from now on....I will never again take a persons' denominational choice and count it as the name by which I should judge, or fellowship...He has been so merciful to me, all my life, but now I realize His impossibly big mercy on me, that I should finally look, and see the error I accepted as truth. Surely goodness and mercy WILL follow me all the days of my life! And yours!

Anyways, I should register here finally, but I don't know how...

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1 ABF, That’s different.... unless you left like LifeGoesOn. See #36

Mentally and spiritually, I left slowly. Physically my family and I left from week to the next. Without word. (But certainly with the Word).

I, like LifeGoesOn, shared my enjoyment from the Word. I wondered out loud in small groups if the footnotes fit with a larger context, not just the few verses provided (or not) to support the point. I asked questions. I kept reading the Word and enjoying. I slowly left the footnotes. I stopped reading the HWFMR because it often time made no sense. At all. None. There was so much twisting and contorting just to make a point. There were so many ellipses, so much left out that just reading it was difficult to follow. The point was made over and over and over without ever being supported, without really saying anything except saying what it was saying what it wanted to say in order to say it again.

And so, one Sunday we were there, and the next Sunday we weren't. Brothers and sisters who had known my parents before they were married, one brother who even married them, brothers and sisters who have known me since I was born were silent. And that is the silence I heard echoing in your question.

Your question, the one I quoted, was unintentionally rhetorical in a revealing way.

I think, correct me if I am wrong, you were saying you wouldn't expect the elders to call, to ask (in short to care) because of the way LifeGoesOn left.
Your question, "Did you expect them to?" reveals the lack of expectation of care, of patience, of love, of shepherding, of kindness, etc that is par for the LC as soon as anyone questions, even in a searching, genuine way, the writ of Witness Lee.

What do you think of the Elder's reactions in the case of LifeGoesOn (just based on what you know from here), and in my case?

[Drake]

-1.

ABF,

In the case of LGO, just from what I read, I would have debated about calling but probably would not have mainly because he sounded as if his mind was made up and he went his own way emphatically.

By your description, I would have called you but if you insisted to not be bothered or became annoyed then I would cease unless I knew you very well then I would have annoyed you for years.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Eyesopened

Anyways, I should register here finally, but I don't know how...

Please send an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com requesting registration and include your desired UserName. We will then send you a temporary password which you can change to something only you will know.

Looking forward to your participation!
-

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Before LSM took over all the LC's, we actually looked forward to getting together, and we actually enjoyed the liberty of the Spirit.

I wonder though...

How is it that this "...we..." who "...actually enjoyed the liberty of the Spirit..." . . . Were so weak as to allow this "...LSM..." to come in and take over "...all the LCs..."?

Isn't it something how people always look at other people... And never seem to look at themselves.

Now... I am very familiar with this scripture... 2 Corinthians 12:10... "Therefore I am well pleased in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions and distresses, on behalf of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am powerful."

I'm wondering... In the light of the above scripture... Were these "...we..." who allowed this "...LSM..." to come in and take over "...all the LCs..." actually being powerful in their weakness?

Or could it have been the other way around...

Meaning... This "...we..." who allowed this "...LSM..." to come in and take over "...all the LCs..." were actually thinking they were powerful... But were really weak because they thought they were powerful.

Hmmm?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Terry

Publicly and privately I have shared my analogy of the "high peaks" versus the low gospel.
High peaks equates to flying in a 747 or 777 at 40,000+ feet. You're at such a high elevation, you miss out what's happening at ground level.
Low peaks equates to being at ground level whether you're in a train or auto.

Nice.

But then, an eagle soars high above the ground... And yet can certainly be aware of what is taking place on the ground below — even in minute detail.

But in this earthly environment we live in, eagles may get hit by a plane because as it dives to earth with a single objective in sight... It doesn't see what is happening in the space between it and the objective on the ground.

But the Lord... Who is likened to an eagle in some scripture verses... See everything.

Which is why... Better than being at high peaks... Or low peaks... Or even in between peaks... Is just being in the Lord at all times.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I threw away EVERY SINGLE piece of LSM literature I owned, even my Bibles.

And yet...

You said in your opening post...

"...We wanted LIFE!!!..."

Which is absolutely supported in the pieces of LSM literature you owned... Even the Recovery Version bible supports this.

Hallelujah!!! . . . Your own words prove you gained something profitable in your many years of meeting with the local churches... And being ministered to by the LSM ministry.

And to say you didn't would to be contrary to your own speaking... Not that I'm saying you said or suggested that... But only to make the point that although you chose to throw out any literature associated with LSM... The intrinsic essence of the ministry's speaking is actually in you... Even to this day.

And, praise the Lord, that is what matters to God.

The above made clear... I looked for your "...part 2..." as I would have liked to have a clear view of where the Lord has taken you/allowed you to go since you left meeting with those that you met with in the Recovery... But you haven't gotten around to writing your "...part 2..." as yet, so I will respond to your "...part 1...", and first say...

Again... But with even more emphasis... HALLELUJAH!!!

Inside the camp... Outside the camp... God still rules and reigns!

Or do you not believe this, LifeGoesOn?

Do you not believe that God rules and reigns over all things at all times? . . . And that this ruling and reigning of God includes both your meeting with the Recovery "...for close to 40 years..." . . . Just as God's ruling and reigning, through the Holy Spirit, "...made it so clear to my wife and I that He was leading us out of the LC."

Surely you believe that God rules and reigns at all times... No matter what your eyes and mind are telling you?

And if so... Tell me... Is God allowing the meeting fellowship that you grew up in and were a part of "...for close to 40 years..." to continue... Not according to/under/by His ruling and reigning?

Surely you do believe that, right?

Or... Tell me... Do you believe that because God's ruling and reigning, through the Holy Spirit, "...made it so clear to my wife and I that He was leading us out of the LC...",... He is no longer ruling and reigning the meeting fellowship that you grew up in and were a part of "...for close to 40 years..."?

In other words... Do you believe that God's ruling and reigning of the meeting fellowship that you grew up in and were a part of "...for close to 40 years..." has come to an end because He led you out of it? . . . Or is God still ruling and reigning over this fellowship meeting that you, because of God's ruling and reigning, were once a part of?

And I'm asking you this because... If God is still ruling and reigning over all things... And in His ruling and reigning over all things, He is allowing this fellowship meeting you were a part of, to go on... Then are you thinking to speak badly of what God has chosen to allow to go on according to His ruling and reigning? . . . Which I think, according to scripture, may just be a but of a "No, no" in God's eyes.

See how that works my brother.

You know... There's a little spoken about factoid regarding the Israelites coming out of Egypt... A little factoid that I know from personal experience the LSM litriture makes clear...

And the little factoid is this...

The Israelites may have been out of Egypt... But Egypt was still in the Israelites.

Exodus 16:3... "And the children of Israel said to them, If only we had died by the hand of Jehovah in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the fleshpots, when we ate bread to the full; for you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole congregation with hunger."

Everything in God's economy towards the salvation of man is for... To use a thought from Watchman Nee... The breaking of the outer man for the release of the inner man.

Which is for...

The building of the one body of Christ.

Which is for...

The producing of the bride the Lord returns for...

Which is for... You should know the rest.

And every single called and eternally saved born again believer in Christ... Serves the above eternal desire/purpose of God.

And that includes... You... Those you no longer meet with... Those you now meet with... And many, many more saints who you have little to know knowledge of... Including myself.

In your "...My Testimony - Part I..." there is a lot of focus on what you think God has done for you... But not very much, if any at all, speaking on what you have done for the Lord.

My hope is that we will read about the second aspect I referred to above, in your testimony "...Part 2...".