Abuse from Christianity toward saints in a local church

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Hope

Hello there Brother Roger,

All this time I thought you were a West Coast brother.

Your reference about "in the recovery ...but in Christianity ... Does not sound like something I would have said. I can never recall referring to the Local Churches as "the recovery." I would hear that from saints from the Far East and many times I stated that to say that meant they were a denomination. I often warned the young people in Dallas, in particular the leaders among the young people, that unless the Lord had mercy that we would become another denomination. (And it happened!)

Now did I call a spade a spade? I was probably more frank than Benson. I was never sympathetic to any religious system that kept men from Christ. Thankful Jane gave a report about my critique of my visit to Rome and said she still laughs about it.

I do not apologize for the errors of the local churches nor do I cover over their good points. I trust that is and was my attitude toward any group of Christians.

But ...

Just last night I was spending time with one of the new believers from Nepal. A convert from Hinduism. We were sharing on the power of the Cross, the Word of the Cross and Christ Crucified from 1 Cor. chapter 1. He asked us about the crosses that Catholics wore and images he had observed. This was confusing to him. In his spirit or conscience he did not feel at peace. What should I have told him? I spoke very frankly regarding what it was to believe in Jesus. I spoke very frankly regarding images. I never sugar coat the images of Catholics nor that system of error.

I did not state that we had the truth or attempt to set our little fellowship up as something special.

Let us have more fellowship over this matter. It is not an easy subject. Just as the leaders and followers in the LSM never want to admit a mistake or short coming so it seems some only want to paper over mistakes made by christianity.

I am at work and must go. But I really would like to say more and be sure I am being clear.


Hope

My wife and I went to the West Coast when Witness Lee gave the call for young people to go there for "training." We were there for two years.

I certainly would never state or imply that we shouldn't speak the truth when pointing out error. I still do that today. But I've found that my attitude in doing so has changed dramatically (for the better, I think).

Before, I held the common Living Stream attitude that "they" are in a poor and degraded situation, and I (as a representative of THE truth) was there to rescue them. It's that superior attitude that springs from pride.

By the Lord's mercy, the further I get away from LSM I have more of a fear and trembling towards those who are in some form of degradation, fearing that they not get the impression that I am proud, and there to save them.

My background is Catholic and I find myself talking to people from that denomination all the time. I sense a certain liberty in not being shackled with the burden of having to turn them from error to Witness Lee's body of truth. Inwardly I sense more of a true compassion and tender loving care for them, realizing that it’s only by the grace of God that I am not still there. At the same time, I am open to the Lord speaking to me through them. That was not my experience when I was in "God's Best."

Roger

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Roger

My wife and I went to the West Coast when Witness Lee gave the call for young people to go there for "training." We were there for two years.

I certainly would never state or imply that we shouldn't speak the truth when pointing out error. I still do that today. But I've found that my attitude in doing so has changed dramatically (for the better, I think).

Before, I held the common Living Stream attitude that "they" are in a poor and degraded situation, and I (as a representative of THE truth) was there to rescue them. It's that superior attitude that springs from pride.

By the Lord's mercy, the further I get away from LSM I have more of a fear and trembling towards those who are in some form of degradation, fearing that they not get the impression that I am proud, and there to save them.

My background is Catholic and I find myself talking to people from that denomination all the time. I sense a certain liberty in not being shackled with the burden of having to turn them from error to Witness Lee's body of truth. Inwardly I sense more of a true compassion and tender loving care for them, realizing that it’s only by the grace of God that I am not still there. At the same time, I am open to the Lord speaking to me through them. That was not my experience when I was in "God's Best."


Roger

Thanks for the post

I have put into bold letters points I believe to be critical to the discussion.

Sorry about your going to the West Coast in answer to the Orange County call. I hate myself for my part in promoting that. Forgive me if I in any way influenced you. For a while there, my discernment was not working and my promoting that was a big part of my sin against the Body of Christ.

I also recall the excessive pride exhibited during that time. Not only was the local church movement it, in particular those in Southern Cal. were the it among the it.

In 1977 a large group went from Orange County to a conference in Stuttgart. I also was there. I had spent a lot of time with the German brothers and actually spoke a little German. One of the Orange County young people leaders gave a big pep rally speech in an afternoon meeting for the European young people. It was full of pride and self delusion. The German brothers were very unhappy with it. I was basically confused. They realized I was not fully with the program of we are it and especially what is happening in Orange County is it. We had a very serious talk off line. From that day I and they began to look a little askance at the crowd from Anaheim. It was the pride and we are special that first began to bother me.

The Lord has no use for Spiritual pride. Rev 3:17-20, 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich, and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore, and repent. NASB

In my opinion, Spiritual pride is at least in the top three or so of the sins in the LSM. Add divisiveness, add selective care for the more gifted, add Deputy authority vs the Headship of Christ, add "the Work" as a rival of the local assembly and then throw in sin and corruption and you pretty much have the problem identified.

I have been slow to discuss spiritual pride on the forum because it is somewhat of a subjective call. I also would not link a defense of Christianity with exposing the pride. Nor would I link a defense of Christianity with the exposing of the divisiveness.

Again, we can have a lot more to say.


Hope

Aron, We are good to go. No problems mate.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Roger

My background is Catholic and I find myself talking to people from that denomination all the time. I sense a certain liberty in not being shackled with the burden of having to turn them from error to Witness Lee's body of truth. Inwardly I sense more of a true compassion and tender loving care for them, realizing that it’s only by the grace of God that I am not still there. At the same time, I am open to the Lord speaking to me through them. That was not my experience when I was in "God's Best."
Roger

Same here Roger,
In fact, God allowed me to lead my high school best friend to our Lord Jesus. But way before, she prayed 'publicly' and made Jesus her LORD & KING, I spent a year or so ministering the Word of God to her. Early on, she said to me "Carol. You KNOW I/we were raised Catholics and I am NOT going be something other than a Catholic." I responded: Erma. Were WE not raised to believe in GOD the Father, God the Son, Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit?" Yes. "Were we not taught to believe Jesus was born of a virgin, lived, suffered, died and shed His Blood for our Sins? And Resurrected on the Third day, Ascended into Heaven and is coming again?" Yes. "Well then. Am I telling you to believe in something different? Am I telling you to change 'religions'?" no. WELL THEN !!!

Then one time we went out for dinner. She makes the sign of the cross when we get ready to pray over our meal. She makes the sign w/o saying anything and just waves her hand over her head, hurriedly crossing her arms. You know what I'm talking about.

So I SLAP my hand on the table and 'scold' her telling her "IF YOU'RE Going to make the sign of the cross PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING !!" I stunned her. I then proceeded demonstrating how to concentrate IN the Name of the FATHER-GOD, IN the Name of the SON-JESUS and IN the Name of the Holy Spirit-Bless me."

She looked at me for a bit. Then said "WOW. We were never taught to pray like that, huh?"

I have NEVER once told her to 'leave' the RCC or ripped it to pieces on my own inititation. She is the one who slowly began to rip apart the RCC for being soo dead! It was then that I began to explain some things to her. Mostly though I keep taking her to the WORD of GOD. I have shared the Power of the Blood of Jesus and boy does she know how to apply the Blood !! I could go on sharing stories she tells me about applying the Blood of Jesus on her. Btw, she does not make the sign of the cross when we eat together anymore.

Point is:
We keep our eyes fixed on God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit praying the Holy Scriptures so that the Word of God is rooted and Grounded in us, Living and Operative and sharper than any two edged sword, dividing the soul from the spirit.......and GOD takes care of the rest. He is AWESOME. WE have an AWESOME GOD....and WE are on the WINNING Team!

YAHOO!!