What is the boundary of the Local Church?

[Evangelical]

Here is another article from Christianity explaining how and why every church should have elders.

https://www.9marks.org/article/shoul...h-have-elders/

I quote..


But the best reason a church should have elders is because the New Testament says that it should. Throughout his epistles, and especially the pastoral epistles, Paul makes it plain that every New Testament church should have elders, that is men who “direct the affairs of the church” (1 Timothy 5:17-18). He commissioned Titus to make sure that all the churches in Crete had elders (Titus 1:5). And he took the time to outline for both Timothy and Titus what sort of men should be called to that office (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:6-9), as well as the procedure that should be followed should a man need to be removed from the office (1 Timothy 5:19-20). So central were elders in Paul’s thinking that, though eager to reach Jerusalem by Pentecost, he took the time to call the Ephesian elders together and give them one last exhortation (Acts 20:16-38), the heart of which was that they be faithful as “shepherds of the church of God”.


So also if we consider that in addition to elders a church should have evangelists..prophets..pastors..teachers...the giftings to the church...it must be more than 3. Clearly 3 people are not enough.

Clearly ZNP does not know what he is talking about and everyone should be wary to accept his sad rambling monologue about church boundaries when he cannot even get right the most basic facts about the size of a church.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Here is another article from Christianity explaining how and why every church should have elders.

https://www.9marks.org/article/shoul...h-have-elders/

I quote..


But the best reason a church should have elders is because the New Testament says that it should. Throughout his epistles, and especially the pastoral epistles, Paul makes it plain that every New Testament church should have elders, that is men who “direct the affairs of the church” (1 Timothy 5:17-18). He commissioned Titus to make sure that all the churches in Crete had elders (Titus 1:5). And he took the time to outline for both Timothy and Titus what sort of men should be called to that office (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:6-9), as well as the procedure that should be followed should a man need to be removed from the office (1 Timothy 5:19-20). So central were elders in Paul’s thinking that, though eager to reach Jerusalem by Pentecost, he took the time to call the Ephesian elders together and give them one last exhortation (Acts 20:16-38), the heart of which was that they be faithful as “shepherds of the church of God”.


So also if we consider that in addition to elders a church should have evangelists..prophets..pastors..teachers...the giftings to the church...it must be more than 3. Clearly 3 people are not enough.

Clearly ZNP does not know what he is talking about and everyone should be wary to accept his sad rambling monologue about church boundaries when he cannot even get right the most basic facts about the size of a church.

So Evangelical has quoted verses from Timothy and Titus to prove that every church has to have elders in order to be a church. This raises the obvious question how did Paul write epistles to the churches in Thessalonia, Corinth, Rome, Ephesus, Colossae, Galatia, and Phillipi prior to this rule about appointing elders?

There is no doubt that as a church grows in size you will need some to take up the office of overseer. Once again, consider the example of Odessa. When they met in people's homes why would you need an overseer? But once we rented a meeting hall, now it becomes necessary. Someone has to be responsible to see that the bills are paid, the heat and air conditioning are working, make decisions about adding a bookroom, conferences, etc.

But there is no verse that suggests that appointing elders is necessary for a gathering of believers to be considered a "church".

[ZNPaaneah]

I find it very interesting this desperate attempt to require elders to legitimize a christian gathering as a church.

I went from Matt 18 (the Lord's word on the church) to Ephesians (Paul's word). In Matt 18 a crucial promise is that a gathering of 2 or 3 meeting in the name of Jesus can bind or loose on Earth and what they bind or loose on Earth will be what has been bound in heaven.

This thought is continued in Ephesians. Jesus is made Lord over all to the church. The church is the embassy of the kingdom of the heavens, the church represents the heavenly throne.

Hence I said that the 2 or 3 who are "telling it to the church" in Matt 18 results in the Church "binding or loosing in heaven".

But what is even more important is that this is what the church is. They are the living testimony and proclamation that Jesus is Lord.

This is what Paul says in Ephesians when he says that the church is "His Body which fills all and in all".

Which leads to the question, how can we proclaim Jesus is Lord? That brought us back to Matt 18 and the conclusion about mercy. Unlike righteousness, truth and justice, no one can require you to give mercy. To give mercy is completely up to you, it is your decision and cannot be required of you. Hence, when you give mercy you are acting as "lord" over whatever it is you have the authority over.

Mercy is not natural. If you give mercy because the Lord showed you mercy you are proclaiming that He is Lord of all, that He is in you and fills you.

So I do recognize that a gathering of Christians is not a "church" without this expression of the Lord of all. But somehow this spiritual reality has been distorted so that Evangelical and others have been taught you have to have elders appointed by Witness Lee or some other wannabe apostle before you can be a church.

So then you will have to decide for yourself who knows what they are talking about. If you do not trust your own judgement to read the word but require Witness Lee or some other person to tell you what it says then that is sad.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I find it very interesting this desperate attempt to require elders to legitimize a christian gathering as a church.

I went from Matt 18 (the Lord's word on the church) to Ephesians (Paul's word). In Matt 18 a crucial promise is that a gathering of 2 or 3 meeting in the name of Jesus can bind or loose on Earth and what they bind or loose on Earth will be what has been bound in heaven.

Evangelical's qualifiers are all natural opinions based on common sense, human logic, past experiences, or contrived numbers from the Bible.

Hey, what about 144,000? That's a great number!

The problem is that Evangelical's qualifiers are all in the natural realm, but the real church is spiritual. Evangelical has to fight this to the bitter end just because Lee said so. Lee said 2 or 3 cannot be the church, so it must be so!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Evangelical's qualifiers are all natural opinions based on common sense, human logic, past experiences, or contrived numbers from the Bible.

Hey, what about 144,000? That's a great number!

The problem is that Evangelical's qualifiers are all in the natural realm, but the real church is spiritual. Evangelical has to fight this to the bitter end just because Lee said so. Lee said 2 or 3 cannot be the church, so it must be so!

The ground of the church doctrine collapses if

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

refers to a local church. In this verse there is no city boundary, rather it is "wherever". In this verse there is no requirement for Witness Lee appointed elders. There is no hokey "taking the ground" ceremony. Everything he has built his Christian life on is nothing but sinking sand unless he can prove you need something else besides the Lord's presence.

[Evangelical]

Why would elders be appointed in a church of only two people? I have the presence of Christ can I be a church too? I will be an elder apostle teacher pastor and evangelist. I am a church. This is the false thinking that the two or three idea leads to.

[ZNPaaneah]

WL’s teaching on the church, and the city boundaries is a cleverly invented story (2Peter 1:16). According to them you need something “more”. But we have everything we need for life and godliness (2Pet 1:3). They promise freedom while they themselves are slaves of depravity. The purpose in sharing on this forum is that they might know the truth and the truth might set them free. A false believer is arrogant, slanderous, experts in greed and their eyes are full of adultery (2Pet2:14). This is why we have raised the alarm on this forum about these traits in the leadership of LSM. Peter advises us “we have the word of the prophets made more certain and you will do well to pay attention to it”. That has been the focus of this thread, what does the word say. Yet Evangelical and others will try to turn you to their “logic”, “common sense”, anything but the sure word of God. LSM is like a spring without water. No one promises more than LSM with their ridiculous “high peaks truths”, and projections of worldwide evangelization. Yet they produce nothing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The ground of the church doctrine collapses if

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

refers to a local church. In this verse there is no city boundary, rather it is "wherever". In this verse there is no requirement for Witness Lee appointed elders. There is no hokey "taking the ground" ceremony. Everything he has built his Christian life on is nothing but sinking sand unless he can prove you need something else besides the Lord's presence.

It kind of makes me sick to even discuss this with Evangelical, since he doesn't have a clue what is the true character of his Blended leaders. He talks about what is needed for a "church," yet promotes a ministry which destroys churches.

The two churches which I migrated to help startup were both divided by operatives from LSM who sneaked in secretly, because the elders in each church no longer promoted LSM. Thus LSM promoted 2 ugly divisions. The entire body of Christ should have "marked them for making divisions and causes of stumbling contrary to the teaching we have learned, and turn away from them. For such men do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites; and by slick and deceptive talks deceive the hearts of the simple." -- (Romans 16.17-18)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It kind of makes me sick to even discuss this with Evangelical, since he doesn't have a clue what is the true character of his Blended leaders. He talks about what is needed for a "church," yet promotes a ministry which destroys churches.

The two churches which I migrated to help startup were both divided by operatives from LSM who sneaked in secretly, because the elders in each church no longer promoted LSM. Thus LSM promoted 2 ugly divisions. The entire body of Christ should have "marked them for making divisions and causes of stumbling contrary to the teaching we have learned, and turn away from them. For such men do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites; and by slick and deceptive talks deceive the hearts of the simple." -- (Romans 16.17-18)

Teaching that a church is only two or three is divisive. So a city locality can be divided into thousands of churches by two or three.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The ground of the church doctrine collapses if

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

refers to a local church. In this verse there is no city boundary, rather it is "wherever". In this verse there is no requirement for Witness Lee appointed elders. There is no hokey "taking the ground" ceremony. Everything he has built his Christian life on is nothing but sinking sand unless he can prove you need something else besides the Lord's presence.

The ground of the church doctrine is built upon the gathering of two or three but it is a mistake to say that a gathering of two or three is a church. Lee wrote extensively about the importance of gatherings of two or three which you cannot deny.

Your teaching is 100% wrong as you cannot see the difference between a gathering and the church, so you cannot have much clue about church boundaries.

Your teaching would nullify the Lord's instructions in Matthew 18:15-20 since if you tell two or three then you have already told the church and do not need to seek another body of people.

I cannot imagine what problems this would cause since people would not be able to consult the authority of a body larger than two or three.