Whistleblower

Ohio · 02-11-2018, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I would not have agreed. He said he was an apostle and prophet of God. He said he was a servant of God. If he had told me that this was his ministry, his office and it didn't belong to God I would never have served LSM.

No one would have, because we were all persuaded it was a Levitical Service on the highest plane.

Many were asked, "why waste your time in some remote local church, when you could serve at LSM, building the body and preparing the Bride.

Nell · 02-11-2018, 06:59 PM

How is it possible, knowing what we know now, that testimony has been made public about Watchman Nee's immorality, that nothing changes? Then in 1978, via Max Rapoport, Philip Lee's immorality was made public, and again in 1987-88 via John Ingalls, Philip Lee's immorality was again brought to public attention. But nothing changes.Today we have first hand accounts posted on this forum by women who were abused by men in the Local Church. How is it possible that the LC rocks on in gross sin, offending the Body of Christ in the worse possible way. How is it possible that such sin continues and nothing changes?

The biggest horror to me is that Witness Lee is STILL idolized, and credited as the "Minister of the Age" and other such nonsense. What hypocrisy! Whatever growth that actually occurs in the Local Churches likely has nothing to do with "the ministry" of Witness Lee, but more to do with God's mercy on his people.

Then we have Lee’s perhaps greatest failure: his sons. He knew his sons were predators. He knew they abused the Lord's children. He knew it, but rather than deal with it, he covered their sin. Then pressured other men in the Local Church to do the same. Some of these men are leaders still in "office" today. They were rewarded with longevity in the LSM "office." How are these men not as repulsed and disgusted as John Ingalls described in, Speaking the Truth in Love? Ray and Benson cited the "ground of locality" teaching as reason not to deal with Philip. What do you think of the "ground of locality" teaching now?

Now sexual immorality in the Local Church has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret." What do you think of the "Cover the Brothers" teaching now? We know that Benson and Ray pressured 3 Texas elders to "cover" immorality of BenM. Then, a few years later BenM seduced his brother's wife, divorced his own wife, and married his brother's wife. All under cover of Lee, Benson and Ray.

Where is the "Lord's blessing" now? You can't "cover sin" and expect the Lord to bless your meeting together. This immoral behavior is a mockery to the Lord's name, and to the Lord's Body. It's also a mockery of God's holiness, God's righteousness and God's Word.

You can't have it both ways.

Nell

TLFisher · 02-12-2018, 12:22 PM

All indications is wanting it both ways. At least there is no initiative nor desire for righteousness.
Here are some of the phrases I've heard over the years in the local churches regarding immorality:

rumors
I don't want to hear about it
Just go on positively
God sees no iniquity is Israel

Bottom line, "cover the brothers" is just as important as "deputy authority", "the ground of locality", etc in the local churches. Division is produced

Steel · 02-12-2018, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Now sexual immorality in the Local Church has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret."..." Nell

Really, UntoHim...

You block me for posting too much and being aggressive... But allow Nell to post this unmitigated lie... Judging all who meet as the Local Chruch as holding to sexual immorality as their way of life.

Have you no sense of basic decency.

leastofthese · 02-13-2018, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Really, UntoHim...

You block me for posting too much and being aggressive... But allow Nell to post this unmitigated lie... Judging all who meet as the Local Chruch as holding to sexual immorality as their way of life.

Have you no sense of basic decency.

UntoHim, I appreciate the time, energy, and money that you put towards this forum. I also understand that with your position comes the ability to act as you see best fit. But if Steel’s comments are true, it does seem reasonable to allow him to post. I think it is healthy for readers to see the words of those still within the walls of the LSM churches... they are their own worst enemies... and actually provide a pretty accurate snapshot into the confusion and character that is born from following Witness Lee and his ministry.

Ohio · 02-13-2018, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

UntoHim, I appreciate the time, energy, and money that you put towards this forum. I also understand that with your position comes the ability to act as you see best fit. But if Steel’s comments are true, it does seem reasonable to allow him to post. I think it is healthy for readers to see the words of those still within the walls of the LSM churches... they are their own worst enemies... and actually provide a pretty accurate snapshot into the confusion and character that is born from following Witness Lee and his ministry.

Actually Steele is posting ... but the moderator is making sure he doesn't exceed the speed limit.

UntoHim · 02-13-2018, 06:48 PM

leastofthese,

I understand your concerns. They are valid and appropriate. Our new friend Steel was making a lot of long posts. I only have so much time and energy to moderate somebody like that. I'm slowly but surely catching up to get his posts on the forum.

Believe it or not, we have a lot of lurkers and passerbyers on the forum. While my main concern and consideration is for our regular members and posters, I do have a measure of concern for all the people stopping by (albeit for a moment) and want to be considerate of their time and patience to sort through the myriad of threads and forum boards we have here on LCD.

Finally, our friend Steel originally presented himself as a relatively moderate and reasonable Local Churcher. Soon after his first postings he went "nuclear" on us. He became very defensive and aggressive towards the other forum members. Drake probably sees this dynamic different...and maybe so do you. In any event, I'm going to try my best to get Mr. Steel back online full time without such heavy moderation. Trust me...it's no bowl of cherries for me to do it this way.
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ZNPaaneah · 02-13-2018, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Now sexual immorality in the Local Church has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret." What do you think of the "Cover the Brothers" teaching now? We know that Benson and Ray pressured 3 Texas elders to "cover" immorality of BenM. Then, a few years later BenM seduced his brother's wife, divorced his own wife, and married his brother's wife. All under cover of Lee, Benson and Ray.

I knew BenM during this time and then one day he simply disappeared from the church meeting without me hearing a word (I had moved to Odessa).

But I was clueless to his immorality, I was clueless to what was taking place in Anaheim and I would consider it very reasonable if the vast majority of saints at that time were "clueless".

I don't know where you get this idea of sexual immorality becoming a way of life in the Local Church. It certainly was not my experience.

Nell · 02-13-2018, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I knew BenM during this time and then one day he simply disappeared from the church meeting without me hearing a word (I had moved to Odessa).

But I was clueless to his immorality, I was clueless to what was taking place in Anaheim and I would consider it very reasonable if the vast majority of saints at that time were "clueless".

I don't know where you get this idea of sexual immorality becoming a way of life in the Local Church. It certainly was not my experience.

It wasn't my experience either, until I found out what was going on. Perhaps this way of life is more accurately among the leadership and the offenders, but not among the majority of the membership. Witness Lee's ministry was, among other things, a "ministry of secrecy." That is, "cover the brothers", "don't say anything negative," and a climate of "shoot the messenger" as happened to John Ingalls and Max Rapoport. I described it as a way of life. Maybe there is a better term.

I only know of 2 instances of the elders dealing with sexual immorality, scripturally, both occurring over 40 years ago. One account was written by John Ingalls and the other I was a witness to in Houston in the early 70's. There were approximately 100 others in that meeting as well. We have three instances of Witness Lee's personal intervention to prohibit twice dealing with his son, and once BenM at the time you noted, BenM "disappeared."

Is there no end in sight? It's one thing to have doctrinal disputes with Lee's ministry and teachings. The practices of his ministry is another thing altogether. The current practice is to turn a blind eye to sins against the Body...which is the temple of the Lord.

When I hear that the Local Church leadership, actually the Living Stream Ministry leadership, stands in the assembly and says "John Ingalls was right to expose the handling of Philip Lee by his father, Witness Lee. Max Rapoport was right...Don Hardy was right...we were wrong to allow ourselves to be pressured by Witness Lee to protect sinning brothers. I'm not holding my breath until that happens, but this is the "way of life" to which I refer.

Nell

aron · 02-14-2018, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

It wasn't my experience either, until I found out what was going on. Perhaps this way of life is more accurately among the leadership and the offenders, but not among the majority of the membership. Witness Lee's ministry was, among other things, a "ministry of secrecy." That is, "cover the brothers", "don't say anything negative," and a climate of "shoot the messenger" as happened to John Ingalls and Max Rapoport. I described it as a way of life. Maybe there is a better term.

Why was the USOC rocked by the actions of one doctor? Or Penn State U by what one assistant coach did? Because of the institutionalisation of the sin. The institution fostered a climate in which this could occur. Obviously in any large group sin against one another can occur, and with power disparity (team doctor or coach vv athlete, elder vv church member, or Philip Lee vv office member) abuse like this can happen.

But the institution managers, who derive their power from it, seek to protect it, and thus the sin continues. Appearance takes precedence over reality. This is the institutionalisation of sin, and it affects every member in the organisation.

Steel · 02-14-2018, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Perhaps this way of life is more accurately among the leadership and the offenders, but not among the majority of the membership.

Although you are still being somewhat evasive in your use of the word "...Perhaps...", which only slightly changes what you said...

If you truly believe "...but not among the majority of the membership..."...

Then apologize to those of us here who meet with other local church members... As it is the proper thing to do before the Lord your having spoken what you did in your other related comment.

And I say this not for my sake... But for your own sake.

Nell...

Whatever our differences of thought regarding the matter of Witness Lee, the LSM, and the "Local Church"... We are first and foremost believer's in Christ... We belong to Him... And should pursue serving Him... Even on this website.

And one of the ways we do this is in and through proper fellowship... Which is carried out in and through the Lord's love.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I only know of 2 instances of the elders dealing with sexual immorality, scripturally, both occurring over 40 years ago. One account was written by John Ingalls and the other I was a witness to in Houston in the early 70's. There were approximately 100 others in that meeting as well. We have three instances of Witness Lee's personal intervention to prohibit twice dealing with his son, and once BenM at the time you noted, BenM "disappeared."

Witness Lee was a human, and as scripture tells us — and we can know from our own actions — humans make mistakes.

And humanly speaking... Witness Lee is dead... And has been dead for 20 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Is there no end in sight?

Are we as believers in Christ not called to endure?

And do so in love.

And why?

Because...

1 Corinthians 13:1-13... "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal... And if I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing... And if I dole out all my possessions to feed others, and if I deliver up my body that I may boast, but do not have love, I profit nothing... Love suffers long. Love is kind; it is not jealous. Love does not brag and is not puffed up;... It does not behave unbecomingly and does not seek its own things; it is not provoked and does not take account of evil;... It does not rejoice because of unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;... It covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things... Love never falls away. But whether prophecies, they will be rendered useless; or tongues, they will cease; or knowledge, it will be rendered useless... For we aknow in part, and we prophesy in part;... But when that which is complete comes, that which is in part will be rendered useless... When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, I reasoned as a child; since I have become a man, I have done away with childish things... For now we see in a mirror obscurely, but at that time face to face; now I know in part, but at that time I will fully know even as also I was fully known... Now there abide faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

It's one thing to have doctrinal disputes with Lee's ministry and teachings. The practices of his ministry is another thing altogether.

Again... Witness Lee is dead... Dead men have no ministry... At least... Not in the sense of (context) practices.

Dead men can practice nothing.

Now other people might have a practice related to Witness Lee's spoken/written/past practices ministry... But the practice these people have is their own practice... Not the dead Witness Lee's practice.

You should try to become clear on this reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The current practice is to turn a blind eye to sins against the Body...which is the temple of the Lord.

Not according to my experience with other, LSM-associated members of the "...temple of the Lord..." whom I meet with presently.

But I certainly can't know what may be hidden... And according to scripture... Shouldn't speak about what I don't actually know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

When I hear that the Local Church leadership, actually the Living Stream Ministry leadership, stands in the assembly and says "John Ingalls was right to expose the handling of Philip Lee by his father, Witness Lee. Max Rapoport was right...Don Hardy was right...we were wrong to allow ourselves to be pressured by Witness Lee to protect sinning brothers.

So you demand your feelings/understanding/knowledge/opinions be justified by men?

Is that a scriptural way to conduct yourself?

Is this what John Ingalls wants?

Is this what Max Rapoport wants?

Is this what Don Hardy wants?

Would you think to speak for them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm not holding my breath until that happens, but this is the "way of life" to which I refer.

Nell...

You have the Lord in you...

What more do you need.

I'll end with this...

Romans 8:31... "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?... Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?... Who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies.... Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us... Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?... As it is written, "For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.''... But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us... For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers... Nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It has been a while since I read the above scripture verses.

I thank the Lord that He used your speaking to cause me to spend time reading the above scripture this morning... As it is absolutely applicable to my participation on this website... And really... All that I encounter each and every day.

I needed to consider it before Him... And the Lord knew this.

As scripture tells us... God can take that which was meant for evil, and bring about good.

Praise You Lord Jesus.

UntoHim · 02-14-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

And humanly speaking... Witness Lee is dead... And has been dead for 20 years.

Right. So why is it a published requirement for LC members to consider Witness Lee, whose been dead for 20+ years, as the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age? Why is it the official, published policy that the only publications allowed in the LC movement are those spoken/written by Witness Lee, whose been dead for 20+ years?

Quote:

Again... Witness Lee is dead... Dead men have no ministry... At least... Not in the sense of (context) practices.
Dead men can practice nothing.
Now other people might have a practice related to Witness Lee's spoken/written/past practices ministry... But the practice these people have is their own practice... Not the dead Witness Lee's practice.
You should try to become clear on this reality.

Right. Dead men have no ministry. So why are all the Local Churches and anyone who wants to participate forced to read and fellowship the ministry of this guy whose been dead for 20+ years? Why are people ostracized and quarantined if they even suggest reading and fellowshipping from the ministry of any another man?

"The practice these people have is their own practice". No sir. Please read the One Publication statement. Nothing, absolutely nothing is to be taught or practiced outside of what was taught and practiced by Witness Lee. Everything else outside of Lee is to be considered "religious" or "worldly". Look at today's quote of the day. "replacing us until all natural distinctions have been removed". To anyone who has been involved with the Local Church for any length of time, it should be painfully obvious what Witness Lee meant by "all natural distinctions". He meant anything different or apart from, or anything beyond what he taught and practiced.

You should try to become clear on this reality.
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Ohio · 02-14-2018, 11:03 AM

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