Arthur M. Casci Testimony

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by aron

I think Casci's title, "zealous and misled", is an entirely fitting summary of his testimony of his involvement in the LC. If you look at the young ones being filtered through the FTTA, and thenceforth out to "serve the ministry", what is the difference between them and young Mormons going into the MTC and thence to their missions? In the words of LSM prophet RK, "Absolutely nothing"!

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Missionary_Training_Center

They all serve the "ministry of the age", seeking to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and build up His unique Body. No difference that I can see. They all push a proprietary revelation, as the one speaking of God today. No compromise, no discussion: be absolute. This enthusiasm, this misled zeal, attracts the young people, who want to belong to something, and find definitive purpose and meaning in their lives. Here it is, folks, your handy-dandy one-stop shopping: just accept the revelation of God's Oracle and you are set for life. You never have to think again, just ask, "What would the Oracle want us to do?" which has been answered in long streams of books and pamphlets and hammered into you with innumerable training sessions. The answer is that you have been put here on earth to serve the ministry. This is the sole, unique, move of God on the earth today. Don't you want to be part of it?

Thank you for pointing this out!! I have some Mormon clients and was very surprised to hear about a 2 year "mission" for their young people that sounded very similar to the FTT! It's also when the military wants you to join their ranks- such an impressionable age!

It's sad that Christians are buying into the same tactics instead of relying on the Holy Spirit. Instead, certain people have an agenda and they employ these tactics under the guise of a "Bible school" where ultimately- they just need a certain percentage of those people to end up as full-timers. Which, would be hard to accomplish without the added thought reform practices in the FTT!

Wake up people, this is happening.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Thank you for pointing this out!! I have some Mormon clients and was very surprised to hear about a 2 year "mission" for their young people that sounded very similar to the FTT! It's also when the military wants you to join their ranks- such an impressionable age!

It's sad that Christians are buying into the same tactics instead of relying on the Holy Spirit. Instead, certain people have an agenda and they employ these tactics under the guise of a "Bible school" where ultimately- they just need a certain percentage of those people to end up as full-timers. Which, would be hard to accomplish without the added thought reform practices in the FTT!

Wake up people, this is happening.

There are alot of similarities between the LSM churches and Mormons - maybe thats why Witness Lee said this, "A number of times I have been asked something like this:

“Brother Lee, you say that the ministry is unique. This means that there is just one ministry. When you say that there is one ministry, that the ministry is unique, do you mean that your ministry is this unique ministry?” Some of those who question me like this may have the concept that I think of myself as someone like Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. I always answer this question by saying, “No, I definitely do not mean that my ministry is the unique ministry.”"

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

There are alot of similarities between the LSM churches and Mormons - maybe thats why Witness Lee said this, "A number of times I have been asked something like this:

“Brother Lee, you say that the ministry is unique. This means that there is just one ministry. When you say that there is one ministry, that the ministry is unique, do you mean that your ministry is this unique ministry?” Some of those who question me like this may have the concept that I think of myself as someone like Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. I always answer this question by saying, “No, I definitely do not mean that my ministry is the unique ministry.”"

This is where I get really frustrated. Granted, I get some of his wording might be "lost in translation" and that's a reasonable excuse SOMETIMES. But at some point- "say what you mean, and mean what you say."

I don't know if I've ever read someone's writings that seem so contradicting. Everything gets so convoluted it's hard to even point out his errors in doctrine bc somewhere else, he seems to prove himself wrong. I've read some of the doctrinal debates on here and its just overwhelming. There's a big problem when you're not clear with what you mean and WL either intentionally or unintentionally talks in circles and is VERY UNCLEAR.

If he said, "No, I definitely do not mean that my ministry is the unique ministry," like LofT is saying- it's just completely hypocritical.

How can WL say that and also determine that there can only be ONE publisher (LSM) in the Lord's Recovery?? That fact alone sort of disproves his claim that he doesn't see HIS ministry as "THE UNIQUE MINISTRY."

Also, WHY are other churches quarantined and members excommunicated, slandered, and accused of "building up something for themselves," by publishing and printing their own material, if WL didn't believe that his was the "unique ministry." There's really no need to go to all that trouble of stopping other people from doing the exact thing he was doing. Unless, of course- he did see his ministry as "the unique ministry." If he really said the quote above, it's no wonder people suspend all logic, blindly follow, and stick their nose in the sand when issues come up. You'd be a total hypocrite to believe what WL says, and then support actions in the LC that blatantly contradict his statements.

WL would have made a great politician. The practice of saying whatever you need to in the moment and trusting nothing will actually change isn't a newfound occurrence. Most people, citizens and church members alike, will just blindly follow "laws", continue to trust, and not care enough to "speak up" against the blatant hypocrisy....

MOST people

(sorry to hijack the thread)

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I don't know if I've ever read someone's writings that seem so contradicting. Everything gets so convoluted it's hard to even point out his errors in doctrine bc somewhere else, he seems to prove himself wrong.

Lee contradicting statement and talking in circles is precisely what allows those fallen to the teachings of Witness Lee to justify their found position. I remember sitting in a meeting when a sister began to bemoan the LSM way of speaking - that weird, yet ever present tonality - during a prophecy. She said at first it bothered her, then laid out how she had justified it being OK, in her opinion.

I was reading this recently, reminds me of many LSM church members - Self-justification has costs and benefits. By itself, it’s not necessarily a bad thing. It lets us sleep at night. Without it, we would prolong the awful pangs of embarrassment. We would torture ourselves with regret over the road not taken or over how badly we navigated the road we did take. We would agonize in the aftermath of almost every decision: Did we do the right thing, marry the right person, buy the right house, choose the best car, enter the right career? Yet, mindless self-justifcation, like quicksand, can draw us deeper into disaster. It blocks our ability to even see our errors, let alone correct them. It distorts reality, keeps us from getting all the information we need and assessing issues clearly.

That inability (or unwillingness) to see errors is a glaring issue within the LSM churches. Like the author says, it can draw us deeper into disaster... It draws many of those within the LSM churches to the creature, rather than the creator.

[aron]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

That inability (or unwillingness) to see errors is a glaring issue within the LSM churches. Like the author says, it can draw us deeper into disaster... It draws many of those within the LSM churches to the creature, rather than the creator.

THe problem with the LSM programme is not in the ingrained Asian culture. It's that the culture is sold as heavenly culture, and not in need of any correction.

So the ingrained cultural biases are not critically examined, and their erroneous effects are free to ripple through the network. The butterfly flapping its wings one place creates a tornado somewhere else. And everyone wonders where the tornado came from.

Interesting that when Hank Haanegraff went to China on the LSM dime he noted two strong tendencies to the believers: ignorance and zeal. See his notes in the "We were wrong" issue. Not too different from what Arthur M Casci summarised.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by aron

THe problem with the LSM programme is not in the ingrained Asian culture. It's that the culture is sold as heavenly culture, and not in need of any correction.

So the ingrained cultural biases are not critically examined, and their erroneous effects are free to ripple through the network. The butterfly flapping its wings one place creates a tornado somewhere else. And everyone wonders where the tornado came from.

Interesting that when Hank Haanegraff went to China on the LSM dime he noted two strong tendencies to the believers: ignorance and zeal. See his notes in the "We were wrong" issue. Not too different from what Arthur M Casci summarised.

Interesting. I’ve wondered how much Hank Hanegraff profited from his “closer look” at the local church.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Interesting. I’ve wondered how much Hank Hanegraff profited from his “closer look” at the local church.

Haha one time in Shanghai the brothers invited me to this fancy hotel for a lunch with HH. He struck me as unpleasant, aloof and totally unapproachable. Anyway there were about 20 brothers there and we had fellowship about stuff - one of the brothers owned the hotel, so because of his riches he was kind of a leading one, even though he hadn't been solid for very long.

Anyway they were totally wining and dining him. Lavish af.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Lee contradicting statement and talking in circles is precisely what allows those fallen to the teachings of Witness Lee to justify their found position. I remember sitting in a meeting when a sister began to bemoan the LSM way of speaking - that weird, yet ever present tonality - during a prophecy. She said at first it bothered her, then laid out how she had justified it being OK, in her opinion.

I was reading this recently, reminds me of many LSM church members - Self-justification has costs and benefits. By itself, it’s not necessarily a bad thing. It lets us sleep at night. Without it, we would prolong the awful pangs of embarrassment. We would torture ourselves with regret over the road not taken or over how badly we navigated the road we did take. We would agonize in the aftermath of almost every decision: Did we do the right thing, marry the right person, buy the right house, choose the best car, enter the right career? Yet, mindless self-justifcation, like quicksand, can draw us deeper into disaster. It blocks our ability to even see our errors, let alone correct them. It distorts reality, keeps us from getting all the information we need and assessing issues clearly.

That inability (or unwillingness) to see errors is a glaring issue within the LSM churches. Like the author says, it can draw us deeper into disaster... It draws many of those within the LSM churches to the creature, rather than the creator.

Scarily accurate. I experienced this yesterday with trying to talk to a family member still in the church. It’s a real thing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I don't know if I've ever read someone's writings that seem so contradicting. Everything gets so convoluted it's hard to even point out his errors in doctrine bc somewhere else, he seems to prove himself wrong. I've read some of the doctrinal debates on here and its just overwhelming. There's a big problem when you're not clear with what you mean and WL either intentionally or unintentionally talks in circles and is VERY UNCLEAR. . .

WL would have made a great politician. The practice of saying whatever you need to in the moment and trusting nothing will actually change isn't a newfound occurrence.

New poster Steel was saying how much he appreciated Ed Marks' talk on Psalm 68. I got curious & dusted off my RecV. At one point (vv 21 -23) the psalm was talking about dipping his feet in the enemy's blood, crushing his head, &c. The footnote talked about Jesus defeating Satan.

But elsewhere in the Psalms, the footnotes pan such violent imagery because the NT principle is to bless and forgive your neighbour!! I kid you not! So which is it?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

New poster Steel was saying how much he appreciated Ed Marks' talk on Psalm 68. I got curious & dusted off my RecV. At one point (vv 21 -23) the psalm was talking about dipping his feet in the enemy's blood, crushing his head, &c. The footnote talked about Jesus def

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wriu..._6XvHZld1k7gwZ

Deathly boring.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wriu..._6XvHZld1k7gwZ

Deathly boring.

Perhaps in your opinion. Last I checked... You are but just one member of the Lord's very large, and very diverse... One body.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by aron

New poster Steel was saying how much he appreciated Ed Marks' talk on Psalm 68. I got curious & dusted off my RecV. At one point (vv 21 -23) the psalm was talking about dipping his feet in the enemy's blood, crushing his head, &c. The footnote talked about Jesus defeating Satan.

But elsewhere in the Psalms, the footnotes pan such violent imagery because the NT principle is to bless and forgive your neighbour!! I kid you not! So which is it?

Apparently whatever was "flowing from the throne of God, to Him" AKA whatever WL was in the mood to write about.