What is the boundary of the Local Church?

[ZNPaaneah]

Abbott: Two or three cannot be a Church
Costello: How many do you need?
Abbott: More than two or three?
Costello: So then you need 4?
Abbott: No, I said "more"?
Costello: How many?
Abbott: 12. You see it is common sense. The verse in Matt 18 about two or three, the context in this portion [the only two chapters in the gospels where Jesus talks about the church] is about dealing with sin. No, it has to be 12 because there were 12 apostles.
Costello: Oh, so the context in Matt 18 concerning the church is the reason that two or three cannot be a church, but the context about 12 apostles which has nothing to do with the church, that is OK?
Abbott: Yes its common sense. Besides think about the Nicene Creed, that was decided by more than two or three, and the council in Acts 15, that was more than 2 or 3.

This may seem like a comedy routine but as funny as Evangelical is, the point is that saying the verse "wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst" is referring to the church obliterates Witness Lee's doctrine of dirt.

[Evangelical]

The verse is not referring to the church but to a gathering of two or three. Not seeing the difference between a church and a gathering is your mistake. For your view to be correct we should see churches in the bible comprised of groups of 2 or 3. We do not see this. The first church was 12 members and they became the pillars of the church. The churches established by Paul easily exceeded 3 people.

If your view is correct then God would have started the church with only 3 people...and Israel would have only had 3 tribes.

Some common sense is required.

A family of three having a prayer meeting at home does not make them a church.

The church is familt but also an army and an army cannot have only 3 people in it.

Whichever way we look at it...bibllically...historically. .and common sense...3 is too small to be a church.

Even denominations know this. I was once involved in a church plant that started with 50 people but was eventually disbanded when the numbers dropped below 10. This number was insufficient to warrant a full time pastor and the weekly tithes could not cover the expenses.

[ZNPaaneah]

According to Witness Lee's ministry John 12 represents the miniature of the church life -- Mary, Martha, and Lazarus + Jesus.

Common sense says "the miniature" is the bare minimum required to represent all that is necessary. This may be smaller than normal, yet it was enough to create a picture of the church.

The context of Matthew 18 indicates that the reality of the church is the Lord's presence. The Lord's presence is the authority of the church (Life-Study of Matthew, Chapter 51, Section 3)

Now I understand that Witness Lee has interpreted "tell it to the church" as indicating a local church.

However, it is very clear that 2 or 3 can have the presence of the Lord -- that is the promise. They can bind on Earth, that is also the promise. The Lord will answer their prayer -- that is the promise.

Therefore, using Matt 18 why do they need to "tell it to the church"? The promise is that "whatever they bind on Earth will be bound in heaven". That is my understanding of why they need to tell it to the church. The church represents the kingdom of the heaven. It refers to all the believers on this Earth in oneness with the Lord in Heaven. It is the "Embassy" of the kingdom of the heaven.

If the 2 or 3 are in "the Lord's name" when they bind this person, then the church will also be one with this decision and what they bind on Earth will be what has been bound in heaven.

[Evangelical]

A church must have the Lord's presence but not every meeting/gathering is "a church", if that makes sense.

To summarise Lee's teaching, Witness Lee described the difference between a gathering/meeting and a church and does not confuse them as you have.

If you asked me what is the minimum size of a gathering or meeting I would say 2 or 3. If you say what is the minimum size of a church I would say more than that.

Two or three are sufficient for the church life but two or three cannot be a church if there are more than 3 believers in a city. I recall one of Lee's books in which he writes something to the effect that if a church is only 3 then is everyone an elder?

Clearly there are matters which can be resolved at the meeting level but weightier matters are resolved at the church level, the gathering of 12 or more. An example of this is Paul travelling to Jerusalem after his conversion. He could have stayed with his two or three companions but he decided to meet with the church.

Acts 21:17-18 When we arrived in Jerusalem, the believers welcomed us warmly. 18 The next day Paul went with us to see James; and all the church elders were present.

The "miniature of the church life" you mentioned is meant to convey the quality of a church, but we are talking about the quantity, it's size, and shape. But why is it called a miniature of the church life? Because it has only 4 people in it!

[ZNPaaneah]

I would like to know what the Bible says. I understand the word "church" is actually the word "gathering of the called out ones". So now you agree that 2 or 3 can qualify as a "gathering of the called out ones" but you and Witness Lee teach something that the NT doesn't teach and worse than that, you tell others that this is what God teaches when in fact He hasn't.

Ezekiel 22:28 And her prophets have daubed for them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah, when Jehovah hath not spoken.

This isn't trivial. This is the basis for condemning all other Christians and creating the "Lord's Recovery Sect" (LRS). Yet when it is examined there is no scriptural basis at all.

According to you the minimum number for a "church" is 12. Why? Because there were 12 apostles. You reject 2 or 3 because you claim we are using this verse in Matt 18 "out of context" even though the context of Matt 16-18 is the Lord's first mention of church. Yet you pull this 12 out of your hat completely and totally out of any context to the church.

You also reject the 2 or 3 as a minimum possible number for the church because there is a meeting in Acts 15 that has more than this! This is the most absurd logic. It is like trying to say that a 65 is not the minimum passing grade because we have this other student over here who got a 90 and he passed.

I really hope those who are still being held hostage by this teaching read this thread and realize how absurd this teaching is.

If the NJ is the fully matured version of the "gathering of the called out ones" like a majestic oak tree, then the two or three are like the acorn.

[ZNPaaneah]

15 For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which ye show toward all the saints, 16 cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him; 18 having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might 20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

We have come to an impasse in this thread, "what is the church".

I have leaned on Paul and the book of Ephesians for this definition.

I begin with these verses in chapter one which I will sum up in a word -- the church is the proclamation that Jesus is Lord.

Ex 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

When you show mercy you proclaim that Jesus is Lord. For example, what is it that you hear from all those who do not show mercy -- "I would, but you know, I don't have the authority". Only the Lord has the authority to show mercy.

The way to testify that the Lord has shown you mercy is to show others mercy. That is the strongest testimony that Jesus is Lord, that His mercy created in you a new heart. That is a testimony that "all things" have been put under His feet, and it is a testimony that the church is the "fullness" of "Him that filleth all in all".

I see no reason why 2 or 3 cannot proclaim that Jesus is Lord by showing mercy.

For example, there was a man named David, he was arrested in New Jersey on a drug bust. He had to plead for mercy from his boss Tom to keep his job. His boss felt he was contrite and he showed him mercy. A few months later David was given a prophetic word that the Lord would give him "Hind's feet" and put "spiritual glue" on his hands.

The next day David Tyree made the helmet catch, leading to his coach Tom Coughlin and the Giants winning the Superbowl.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I would like to know what the Bible says. I understand the word "church" is actually the word "gathering of the called out ones". So now you agree that 2 or 3 can qualify as a "gathering of the called out ones" but you and Witness Lee teach something that the NT doesn't teach and worse than that, you tell others that this is what God teaches when in fact He hasn't.

Ezekiel 22:28 And her prophets have daubed for them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah, when Jehovah hath not spoken.

This isn't trivial. This is the basis for condemning all other Christians and creating the "Lord's Recovery Sect" (LRS). Yet when it is examined there is no scriptural basis at all.

According to you the minimum number for a "church" is 12. Why? Because there were 12 apostles. You reject 2 or 3 because you claim we are using this verse in Matt 18 "out of context" even though the context of Matt 16-18 is the Lord's first mention of church. Yet you pull this 12 out of your hat completely and totally out of any context to the church.

You also reject the 2 or 3 as a minimum possible number for the church because there is a meeting in Acts 15 that has more than this! This is the most absurd logic. It is like trying to say that a 65 is not the minimum passing grade because we have this other student over here who got a 90 and he passed.

I really hope those who are still being held hostage by this teaching read this thread and realize how absurd this teaching is.

If the NJ is the fully matured version of the "gathering of the called out ones" like a majestic oak tree, then the two or three are like the acorn.

You really think 2 or 3 can be a church and then everyone is an elder? It is your thinking which is absurd. Matt 18 is out of context because while you claim a church is 2 or 3 the church at that time had at least 12. You have given no biblical examples of a 2 or 3 sized church so your view is unbiblical.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You really think 2 or 3 can be a church and then everyone is an elder? It is your thinking which is absurd.

Does every "local church" have elders?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You really think 2 or 3 can be a church and then everyone is an elder? It is your thinking which is absurd. Matt 18 is out of context because while you claim a church is 2 or 3 the church at that time had at least 12. You have given no biblical examples of a 2 or 3 sized church so your view is unbiblical.

I have provided two Biblical examples: Matt 18 and John 12.