The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the Age

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by OBW

Indy,

...In short, even though I appreciate all the research you did into the various problems that exist within the system, it is probably time to (mostly) abandon them and seek to be established within a good Christian assembly. Almost any will do. I know that you are not just isolated as a Christian. But your constant desire to return to the LRC suggests that you are not really one with whoever it is you are meeting with. Your heart is elsewhere.

Hi OBW, I have been meeting with an assembly in Seattle for three years. They receive me and I receive them because we are all fellow members in the one Body. Whenever I use the term, the Body of Christ, it is with the whole Body in mind, never meaning the Local Churches only. And, this assembly where I meet, and many others have a similar heart-attitude of receiving others. And, they may or may not have a Local Church background or have even heard of Nee or Lee.

I think Henry Hon's fellowship is excellent and his example right. He is not interested in a following but is very exercised to go out and meet and to encourage others in their relationship with the Lord - and with members within and outside their particular sphere of fellowship. This creates the right atmosphere, one of love and acceptance, and induces the "morale" in THE BODY OF CHRIST among believers all around the globe.

Henry and Sylvia returned yesterday from the Philippines where they attended two pastor's conferences. There were twenty pastors present in Tagaytay, which is located two hours outside Manila, and all were to have read Henry's book before the conference.

Afterwards, based on the word, the fellowship in the book, and the Lord's prayer in John 17, a brother who is considered a "bishop" among 70 churches, announced that they all agreed to drop their names and just care for Christ alone.

This, assuredly, is a call into the oneness among fellow believers for the building up of the one Body of Christ. (They're all encouraged also to take care of the unbelievers and invite them to their meeting, and to go to visit Catholics and other groups of believers without expecting them to come into their fellowship. This, in fact, was how the Local Church brothers were encouraged by W. Lee in the beginning - to go out to seek others meeting in that city who were also seeking the oneness of the Body according to the New Testament charge - and the Lord's prayer, "that they all may be one".)

Henry has also been invited to Africa to be with brothers there, who will then take him by bus to visit assemblies in seven cities. The bus ride and time in the homes will afford them much opportunity for fellowship on this ground of oneness, which is Christ alone.

[ZNPaaneah]

Great! I think many of us on this forum wondered what the error was? Some take the view that every word from WL's ministry is suspect.

Instead I would recommend taking the attitude of the church in Ephesus, test the prophets and determine which are false. But, and this is the big but, do not leave your first love. Jesus went to the cross so that we might all be saved, regardless of how "clear our vision is". We need to follow the Lord to the cross with the same attitude.

To me, when we accepted the condemnation of other Christians and gatherings that was the fork in the road where we left our first love.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Great! I think many of us on this forum wondered what the error was? Some take the view that every word from WL's ministry is suspect.

Instead I would recommend taking the attitude of the church in Ephesus, test the prophets and determine which are false. But, and this is the big but, do not leave your first love. Jesus went to the cross so that we might all be saved, regardless of how "clear our vision is". We need to follow the Lord to the cross with the same attitude.

To me, when we accepted the condemnation of other Christians and gatherings that was the fork in the road where we left our first love.

ZNP, as usual you say some thought provoking things!

For me the final test of Nee, Lee, and all things LSM is “rotten fruit, rotten tree”. The more I learn about the about the sources and means of this movement, rather than thinking “where did we (being them, me, and all of their followers) go wrong?” It is now “we were all off from the beginning”.

I’m chucking all of their books (finally!) and am looking for ministers and ministries that have borne the fruits of the Spirit. In another analogy, throw out the leavened lump, get rid of the leaven and start making a new unleavened loaf.

[Indiana]

Ron Kangas says,"There is no successor to this wise master builder [Witness Lee], but there is an open group of being-blended brothers who are absolutely consecrated to the Lord to continue the work begun by this wise master builder. (Ron Kangas, "The Builders of the Divine Building, The Ministry Magazine, vol. 10, no. 1, p. 150)

In other words the "being-blended brothers" are indeed, Brother We, who wield the axe freely to cut off such ones as Henry Hon and Nigel Tomes, et al (100s), just as Brother LEE cut off (100s). We hear a few names officially, but they have families and brothers close to them who got the leprosy and really "they are all cut off" as I was told by an elder who informed me when he cut me off.
WHAT A BRAZEN BUNCH THEY ARE IN MANIFEST DELUSION OF BEING GOD'S REPRESENTATIVE AUTHORITY.

And, this is done in the age of "the little ones", no more giants, supposedly. You are the giant, Brother We, issuing orders from Head Quarters in Anaheim. We understand the assertion that all those who follow you are included in the "Brother We"; but as far as church authority goes, you are following the blueprint of a giant, Witness Lee; and since Henry Hon did not line up with the blueprint, he got cut off, under your direction and full approval and confirmation, and by his own brother, Paul Hon!

[JJ]

Indiana, I recently reread the first chapter of 1 Corinthians http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/1.htm in which Paul chides the Corinthians who were picking their favorite apostle (including him, Peter, and Christ) to meet in their names and exclude others who didn't, and were boasting of their wisdom.

In the middle of the chapter Paul says "The foolishness of God is wiser than man". He also says "He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord".

It sickens me to hear such boasting "Witness Lee the wise master builder". Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord!

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by JJ

Indiana, I recently reread the first chapter of 1 Corinthians http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/1.htm in which Paul chides the Corinthians who were picking their favorite apostle (including him, Peter, and Christ) to meet in their names and exclude others who didn't, and were boasting of their wisdom.

In the middle of the chapter Paul says "The foolishness of God is wiser than man". He also says "He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord".

It sickens me to hear such boasting "Witness Lee the wise master builder". Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord!

Lifting up a man and a ministry has caused turmoil and division in the churches. They need to back off and be found boasting in the Lord alone. A people rich in a ministry, but poor in Christ will have the man and ministry as their ground of meeting. And will be unable to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace with other believers. The sectarian oneness in the Local Churches is not what pleases God's heart the most. They are not lined up with their own teachings meant to protect them within the sphere of the New Testament oneness of the Body of Christ.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Lifting up a man and a ministry has caused turmoil and division in the churches. They need to back off and be found boasting in the Lord alone. A people rich in a ministry, but poor in Christ will have the man and ministry as their ground of meeting. And will be unable to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace with other believers. The sectarian oneness in the Local Churches is not what pleases God's heart the most. They are not lined up with their own teachings meant to protect them within the sphere of the New Testament oneness of the Body of Christ.

Many people downplay the major expose' unfolding in Washington D. C. about certain government leaders and officials, past and present; And spiritually,, the well-documented record of divisive behavior in Anaheim has been downplayed vigorously by governing authorities in Anaheim for decades.

Clean up D. C. and clean up Anaheim, the fountainhead of both good and evil in the Local Churches.

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

[Steel]

Originally Posted by JJ

I’m chucking all of their books (finally!) and am looking for ministers and ministries that have borne the fruits of the Spirit. In another analogy, throw out the leavened lump, get rid of the leaven and start making a new unleavened loaf.

So you will not be eating from the tree of life anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

And what about prophesying — speaking for the Lord and speaking forth the Lord — will you not be prophesying anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

If a believer is constituted with Christ... Then this believer is constituted with truth.

And there is without a doubt... Much truth being revealed in the ministry of Witness Lee.

And to say there isn't is to deny what scripture tells us... And to deny the work of the Spirit of God.

And these are two things no believer should endeavor to pursue.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Steel

So you will not be eating from the tree of life anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

Witness Lee does not own the truth.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Witness Lee does not own the truth.

I never said or suggested he did... Nor have do I think he does.

But I certainly enjoy reading his ministry... And have profited from it in spirit.

Which is of the Lord.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Steel

So you will not be eating from the tree of life anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

And what about prophesying — speaking for the Lord and speaking forth the Lord — will you not be prophesying anymore... Since this is clearly spoken to in the ministry you are "...chucking..." that is.

If a believer is constituted with Christ... Then this believer is constituted with truth.

And there is without a doubt... Much truth being revealed in the ministry of Witness Lee.

And to say there isn't is to deny what scripture tells us... And to deny the work of the Spirit of God.

And these are two things no believer should endeavor to pursue.

Are you implying that to continue your walk with the Lord that you must involve the ministry of Witness Lee?

I fully believe I can read the Bible, and the Bible ALONE and be constituted.

Many believe this.

We don't need WL's ministry. If parts of it help you, fine. But there's no denying the accusations against him might make you carefully examine what you're reading from him. I'm not here to judge whether or not he did or didn't contribute. But, no one is without sin- Abraham, Moses, David, even Paul. Witness Lee fell short in some areas, as we all have. His ministry is not the word of God, the Bible is. If he helps some believers, great! But so do many other people.

Did he contribute? Maybe... But to hang your Christian walk on a man is wrong.

Jesus is the way, not WL.

If he contributed, that's great. But reading his ministry is not NEEDED for Christians to 1) have a relationship with Jesus 2) allow HIS leading 3) fellowship with other Christians and preach the gospel.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Are you implying that to continue your walk with the Lord that you must involve the ministry of Witness Lee?

Not at all. Based on my own experience of walking with the Lord I know that a believer's walk is by the leading of the Spirit in our spirit. My point was simply that you can "...chuck..." out whatever books you like... Your chucking them out doesn't prove that they contain nothing regarding the truth that is revealed in scripture. All it says is that you're making a choice to try and find much of what is said in LSM resources... In other non-LSM resources.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I fully believe I can read the Bible, and the Bible ALONE and be constituted.

To a point, I know from my own experience that this is true. But... There is also the fellowship of the body to be considered. No believer is called to be a believer unto themselves. And a part of this fellowship is related to the gifts that are given to various members of the body in and through a measure of grace that these ones have received from God to carry out the purpose of their given gifts... A measure of grace that you might not have received from God.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Many believe this.

Again... I know... It was even my own experience for a time. But what we believe is not always according to the Lord's reality. And this we can know because scripture tells us that we know in part.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

We don't need WL's ministry.

Well... Only if God has willed it as such. Obviously Balam didn't think he needed his donkey to speak to him... But God had a different view. Over the years I've learned to be very careful regarding what I think I know I need.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

If parts of it help you, fine.

Many parts have, and do. And, although you may deny it, I would tend to think that many parts have also helped you.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

But there's no denying the accusations against him might make you carefully examine what you're reading from him.

I've been reading about Witness Lee, the Living Stream Ministry, and the Local Church from I first came in contact with all three... A part of my professional requirement is research, and I'm very good at it... One of the reasons being that I am, and have always been, very detailed oriented. It's one of the things people have a love/hate relationship with me for... I have always been able to spot what others miss. Which often makes me very hard to deal with on forums like this.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I'm not here to judge whether or not he did or didn't contribute. But, no one is without sin- Abraham, Moses, David, even Paul.

That is a good start. But when you use phrases like "...chucking out..." you tend to certainly sound judgemental. There is an old saying... The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Witness Lee fell short in some areas, as we all have.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind that he did... Like we all do. And one doesn't need to know a thing about Witness Lee to know this... As scripture is clear that it is foolish to think any natural human can be trusted. When I came in contact with his ministry I never once thought to think Witness Lee or his minstry with infallible.

Shoot... I don't even think the scripture that I read is infallible. And I'm certainly not alone (which is why there are so many versions of it). This is why I have dozens of resources (beyond WL's ministry) that I use to consider scripture before the Lord. Scripture tells us that the Lord is building His church, and that He is doing this in and through His growth in life in all believers... And our fellowship with one another in love. That's about as clear as the matter gets. I wonder as you read the comments on this website if you can say without question that this way of the Lord's building is being expressed?

Originally Posted by kumbaya

His ministry is not the word of God, the Bible is.

I've never though of WL's ministry as scripture... I've only though of it as a resource that can help open up scripture... Much like any other resource that the Lord gives us and uses to do so. But I wonder...Can you tell me which version of scripture do you think is God's word... Seeing that there are so many different versions available?

Originally Posted by kumbaya

If he helps some believers, great! But so do many other people.

No doubt on both matters. And this is even clear in WL's ministry... Just a week or so ago I was reading a ministry footnote to scripture and only realized it wasn't actually from the ministry but was all Darby if I remember correctly. So even in WL's ministry we can see that other people can help believers.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Did he contribute? Maybe... But to hang your Christian walk on a man is wrong.

In my experience... His ministry is certainly a help. But I absolutely do not hang my hat on the man, or even His ministry. I try my best to hang my hat — abide in — Jesus Christ. He, not Witness Lee, or any other man, is my Lord and Savior.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Jesus is the way, not WL.

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

If he contributed, that's great. But reading his ministry is not NEEDED for Christians to 1) have a relationship with Jesus 2) allow HIS leading 3) fellowship with other Christians and preach the gospel.

I never said or suggested it was/is in any of matters... 1, 2, or 3... But you "...chucking out..." his ministry isn't either. But on the matter of "...If he contributed..." I know from my own experience that his ministry has... And I fully believe that if you're honest... You will admit that, in one way or another, and to one degree or another, it's the same for you.

And if so... Knowing inwardly that you did gain something — even a little something — from his ministry... To use the phrase "...If he contributed..." would be a bit dishonest. Maybe you had expectations that were not met. Over the years I learned to try and not have expectations. Slaves shouldn't have expectations... As we do not belong to ourselves.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Steel

I know from my own experience that his ministry has... And I fully believe that if you're honest... You will admit that, in one way or another, and to one degree or another, it's the same for you.

Why would kumbaya, or anyone for that matter, lie to themselves about something like this?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Steel

I've been reading about Witness Lee, the Living Stream Ministry, and the Local Church from I first came in contact with all three... A part of my professional requirement is research, and I'm very good at it... One of the reasons being that I am, and have always been, very detailed oriented. It's one of the things people have a love/hate relationship with me for... I have always been able to spot what others miss. Which often makes me very hard to deal with on forums like this.

In Psalm 68, the psalmist says that God will crush the head of His enemies, and the psalmist will bath his feet in their blood (vv 21,23). The footnote says, "We enjoy Christ's victory over the enemies."

But usually the psalmist is panned for being "natural" in expressing such sentiments, even in milder form. In the NT we're supposed to love our enemies, and forgive them! Never wish them ill.

See e.g., Psalm 3 footnote in v 7 "Oh that you would strike all my enemies on the cheek; and break the teeth of the wicked". Lee says that "David's prayer for vengeance against his enemies is contrary to the NT. . . yada yada".

Yet why dd David throw a rock at Goliath? Not so nice, was he? Why did Samuel smite Agag? Etc?

Why the disparity in exegetical approaches? Witness Lee never explains it. It's like one moment he decides that David is a picture of Christ, the next that he's just being "himself". Old David.

I find this to be arbitrary and inconsistent, and don't think it would stand up in an undergraduate paper, much less something published by Oxford U. Press. The whole thing smacks of a self-obsessed vanity project. No wonder Lee wouldn't subject himself to critical review.

How could several hundred or a few thousand sit quietly and uncritically while the 'minister of the age' whipsawed through scripture like this? Mesmerised, perhaps? Cowed into silence? Waiting for the cheer-leaders to start braying today's slogan? Incredible.