How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Drake

Concerning your question about clergy laity. The local churches are a procedure, temporary, and transient on the earth. Unlike a clergy laity system, every member in a local church must be taught and encouraged to function. Therefore, the work of ministry is to bring every member of the Body into their function as Paul taught in Romans 12 and as practiced in 1 Corinthians 14:26 (Each one has is the exercise of gifts and inspiration when we come together). When we speak of clergy laity we often focus on the clergy but the big issue is with the laity. The Body of Christ is built up by each member functioning not just a few gifted members....but every member. The Clergy Laity system annuals the function of the members.

Local churches have become every bit a clergy laity system. It's been decades gone past since the time every member could function in the manner of Paul's epistles. Sure you could have different ones speaking, but it's not the same as functioning. The speaking is restricted to ministry publications or solely to Holy Word for Morning Revival depending on your locality of fellowship.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Drake

Boxjobox, There was a specific and special ministry focused on producing the local churches and that ministry and the workers in that ministry have a responsibility before God to support, teach, exhort, etc. those local churches on an ongoing basis. That is a historical fact and the scriptural teaching concerning the relationship between a local church and the work of ministry. It doesn’t really matter if a local church was planted by Watchman Nee or Witness Lee or coworkers of those brothers for they are all of the one and same ministry. It also does not matter if someone planted a local church and that church later became aligned with the ministry that builds up the churches. One may plant, another water, but it is God that increases. If you do not see or agree that LSM is that work of ministry then where is the work of ministry? To well meaning brothers I say.. well ok, if you agree with the model of the local churches, the work of ministry to build up the Body of Christ, then if not this ministry, where is that ministry?

Drake, this is my view of the relation of WL/LSM to the Local churches. I base this part on my 13 year experience in the LC, part on what I've read on this site by followers and rejectors of WL/LSM, and part on what you are saying: WL was largely responsible for the formation of LC's in the USA ( I won't talk of other places, because I don't have enough background). His ministry then progressed to an expository of the Bible, other related topics, and then to a method of expanding the scope of influence and spread of his material and LCs. At some point- and I'm sure he was well aware of it, if not instrumental in it coming about, his ministry was considered the unique and only legitimate ministry for the LCs. While it would be dangerous for the LCs to call him an Apostle, the thought of him being an apostle, and the apostle for the rest of this age, grew until it was generally accepted.

In the view of the LCs, his being an apostle became greater than Paul the Apostle, in that he had the works of John and Paul and Paul only had himself. James, Jude, Peter were really pedestrian and did not have the great revelation Paul had, but John had revelation Paul did not, so when WL could draw from both sources and mold them into one message, obviously the writings of WL were superior to the two individual. And because he had both, he could expand on their ministries, and fill in the gaps. This put WLs writings above what one would have with just the scripture alone. So, it would be impossible to say WL was an Apostle, because he was not an actual disciple of Jesus on earth , nor had the unique calling to Apostleship as Paul. In the end WL and his writings became bigger than the parts presented in scripture.

So the LCs need to follow WL because his unique, up to date ministry is viewed as the superior and only clear speaking that matches God's desire. To rely on scripture alone would leave one with only parts, and only WL is able to properly connect the parts. By speaking, reading, fellowshipping over WLs work, people will be brought into the complete revelation and building of the church. Others, that only use scripture, do not produce the church, but something inferior. There must be speaking in the meetings by each one using the WL material for the real building to occur. Other ministers both past and present, only saw parts, WLs ministry gave the complete revelation and way for the proper churches to be built up. Other people's speaking may be nice, but not complete.
One needs a revelation that this is the proper ministry, and when one accepts that and practices that in the proper church, then they are being built up.

When WL died, LSM, the company he established for his work, is fully carrying on this vision and needs to be accepted by local assemblies in order for them to be a proper church. If others use the term local church but do not join to and practice the LSM way, they are not in fellowship with the up to date ministry and fall short.

Drake- is this a good summary of what you believe and what the LC believes and practices?

[Drake]

Boxjobox >”Drake- is this a good summary of what you believe and what the LC believes and practices?”

Boxjobox, thanks your note and thanks for asking. I’ll clarify.

My views and the views of those I met with forty years do not believe that Brother Lees or Brother Nees writings are greater than those writers of the Bible.....Pauls, John, Peter,.... Brother Lee and Nees writings are not scripture. Neither is their apostleship greater than the original Apostles. Their teachings are derived from scripture not net new scripture.

What we believe is that Nee and Lee are following the New Testament teachings and New Testament pattern defined by those writers and in these days the Lord is recovering or restoring the pattern of the churches in the New Testament to build up the Body of Christ and consummate this age. The Lord raised up ministers in various times and places in the past to recover something..... what remains still in these days is the recovery of local churches as the procedure and testimony according to the Nee Testament pattern to close the age and bring the Lord back.

Therefore, we do not elevate Brother Lee above the Apostles, rather we accept that he was an apostle to the local churches raised up under his and Nees ministry for this era. We do not elevate the writings of these two servants above the scripture. They are interpreters of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We also believe this a special calling and apart from this special calling we would have reason to exist separately. We also recognize the Christian life and work is carried out according by the Holy Sprirt as the ultimate authority through men who are less than perfect yet nonetheless bear responsibility as the Lord sees fit and has arranged.

Drake

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

We do not elevate the writings of these two servants above the scripture. Drake

In many saints homes, it seems to be a common practice to display only life study books in bookshelves, neatly and in chronological order. Many times, there's an accompanied bookshelf with many soft cover books/pamphlets. I'm estimating my family has over 500 books (granted they've been in the LC for 30 plus years).

I've been around long enough to know this isn't an exception. Many saints homes have LSM material on display- almost as "decoration" of some kind. I know my family had special bookshelves built in to their home when building it- for the specific purpose of displaying the Life Studies.

Do you think that the tendency for saints to exhibit this behavior contradicts with the common "idea" of members in the LC saying that they're not elevating the writings of these two "servants" (jury is out for me on this, sorry) above the scripture? I think it would be fair to say, they're at least SEEMING to elevate this writings to a place EXTREMELY close to scripture, right up to equal. I know they don't think that, but the tendency to display their LSM material seems like a red flag to me in the WAY its displayed- almost reverently.

Do you openly display your LSM purchases in this way as well? Not just in a bookcase with other books, but in a SPECIAL way, that's somehow "elevated" and "shown off?"

I don't think it's necessarily intentional, but it's interesting to me how these bookcases in saints homes seem to hold (many times) ONLY LSM material and seems to somehow be the focal point of the room.

Also, Do you think its dangerous to read material from only one source?

[Evangelical]

It definitely livens up the room. Lol

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Drake

Boxjobox >”Drake- is this a good summary of what you believe and what the LC believes and practices?”

Therefore, we do not elevate Brother Lee above the Apostles, rather we accept that he was an apostle to the local churches raised up under his and Nees ministry for this era. We do not elevate the writings of these two servants above the scripture. They are interpreters of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We also believe this a special calling and apart from this special calling we would have reason to exist separately. We also recognize the Christian life and work is carried out according by the Holy Sprirt as the ultimate authority through men who are less than perfect yet nonetheless bear responsibility as the Lord sees fit and has arranged.

Drake

It's been 30 years since I met with the LC in my city. At the time I left was the start of, I think it was referred to as, " the new way". I can recall going to a meeting and everyone was sitting in small circles reading from- memory may not be exact but, I think it was truth lession book. It was the same thing as if we were reading the Bible and then talking about the scriptures. I got up and left the circle because it was a replacement for scripture. I could site other examples of things said and practices and video that gave me the feeling the Bible had become a reference book and Lee material was the living and operating word. This was a time after witnessing the tape room dumping anything produced locally and the bookroom dumping all non- LSM material, so it was apparent that there would only be one source. I think the bookroom also dumped W Née books that were not under the LSM label.

Not that long ago, I went to listen to Christian radio station, and on came WL. It was a short excerpt from a training, and then a couple of people were interpreting his speaking- not because of his English, but just like one would read a portion of scripture and then expand on it. I quickly changed the channel and actually thought of calling the station and having a talk with the programs director.

When you say "They are interpreters of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We also believe this a special calling and apart from this special calling we would have reason to exist separately." this, to me, is the same as putting WL in the same category as Paul, Luke, John etc. you are saying he is special and that his interpretations are as important as scripture. It is the same as Peter's explanation “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” II Peter‬ *1:20-21‬ *NKJV‬‬.

The thing that really gets me is that if I look up the web site for the church in San Diego, there is no mention of WL or LSM. If the churches give such weight to WL/LSM, and feel his writings are for the completion of God's will. I would think it would be paramount to get this out. I'm thinking there is some shame in mentioning this special relationship with LSM, because the site leaves the impression that it's just a gathering of Christians not unlike all other Christian gatherings in San Diego. Yet the thing that really separates them is their yolk with LSM.

Drake, I see a problem with what you say are the beliefs of the LCs. Those beliefs separate any who would want to meet as the church if they do not agree with what you say is believed by the LC. Indeed, if I look at the web site for the C in SD, in their beliefs section, there is no mention of what you say are the beliefs. Would you say that the C in SD is not in fellowship with the other LCs or is there some craftiness going on here?

This is my experience of the LC bumping up against your beliefs, and it seems others that were in other locations have had similar experiences. I don't think any of the people that post who came out of an LC have turned their back on God, but have major problems with the current set up after the LSM takeover. The church should be the church of the believers with the like precious faith, not an organization that is run by a company where there is too much room for faults. There is not the spiritual checks and balances necessary for the consciences of the saints. So the LC is left with only those who follow the LSM, which is divisive.

[Drake]

-1

thanks Boxjobox. You raise some excellent conversation points.

First one is that people reading the Truth Lessons gave you the feeling that they were elevating Brother Lee's writings above the Bible. I do not understand how that practice would be any cause for concern because those truth lessons are in that way no different than christian study material one might find in a typical Sunday School class or a Bible study class. Its a study in mutuality around a particular topic. Assuming you attend a Sunday School class of some sort, do you not have material already designated provided by some ministry? Even free groups, such as the house church movement, have study material that is centered around their beliefs and practices. There are very few christian groups that do not follow some type of ministry and read and study the beliefs and practices of the group they are apart of. I do not see how the practice of studying christian writings in any christian group can be cause for concern (your objection to this was not the content of the truth lessons but "everyone sitting around in a circle reading from the Truth Lesson book").

Second point is the "special calling". Understand that the special calling, calling it a special calling, or teaching it as a special calling, did not originate with Witness Lee. It started with Watchman Nee in the booklet "What are We?" available online at LSM.org to read for free. Suggest reading that, but how it is articulated is as gracious a christian thought as ever there was one. It is not placing a burden on other christians to comply or conform, it is simply stating that the Lord has revealed a special work in these days and if a person hears and accepts the Spirit's call they may participate and if not they are free to follow the Lord's leading in their own life. In every detail this calling is aligned with scripture. That is not elitist, nor is it placing anyone or anything above scripture or the biblical revelation. Rather, it is the biblical revelation entrusted to us not because we think we are superior but because we were called to it. It is not above the scripture or a private interpretation, rather is a rightly dividing the scripture, cutting straight the word of truth, or correctly handling the word of truth as stated in 1 Timothy 2:15.

Last point about the local church and the beliefs concerning the work of ministry, and San Diego as an example. I believe that website strikes exactly the right balance... the beliefs are focused on the christian faith, the Bible, God, salvation, and the church as the Body of Christ. The links section show the affiliation with the work of ministry. That is the precise relationship that is proper and scriptural between a local church and the work of ministry. The beliefs are eternal, unchanging, fixed. Should the Lord delay the links could change or perhaps the Lord will raise others to stand on the shoulders of Watchman Nee/Witness Lee in the same way we stand on others the Lord raised up before us. For now, in this era/age, those links are proper and in the right place. I do not rule out the possibility that the Lord could raise up another group of people to complete the age but for now, it has not been revealed to us. Yet we cannot reject what the Lord has shown us for His revelation is progressive.

Boxjobox, in the above I just want to be clear that I am not dismissing your experience or point of view. I am providing my own and though it differs from yours I absolutely believe you must follow your leading before the Lord. You will not be ultimately judged by me, or anyone else, but by the Lord at His Bema as will I, as will Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. I hope you also will allow that the Christians in the local churches must also follow the Lord's leading according to what He has shown them. A major gap in our different points of view concerns the work of ministry and the role and service of that work to the local churches. I have provided my scriptural explanation for this relationship.

Drake

[kumbaya]

Drake,

In your opinion, why do Christians on campus (college ministry of LC) not call themselves, "The church in <BLANK> Student Center?"

Why do they use terms like "inoculate" (personally heard this) when teaching you how to minister to college students about not only the Bible, but the writings of WL.

My point is, there's a reason why WL's name isn't paraded around. If it drew people in, they'd be using it.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Drake,

In your opinion, why do Christians on campus (college ministry of LC) not call themselves, "The church in <BLANK> Student Center?"

kumbaya,

Because the work of ministry does not equal the local church.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Why do they use terms like "inoculate" (personally heard this) when teaching you how to minister to college students about not only the Bible, but the writings of WL.

You'll have to provide the specific use case then I can answer.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

My point is, there's a reason why WL's name isn't paraded around. If it drew people in, they'd be using it.

It is not paraded around because that work isn't about Witness Lee.


kumbaya, you did ask me to leave you alone. Are you sure about this?

Drake

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Drake

thanks Boxjobox. You raise some excellent conversation points...

Drake, I heard the Bema exhortation before from a local church member when, after meeting one of their members a number of years after I walked away from the LC. I asked the person "are you still following WL?", his response was "we don't follow a man". We had a small discussion about that point and he eventually said " if you were an Israelite in Egypt wouldn't you follow Moses?", justifying the following of WL. Then came the "meet you at the bema seat" statement.

My view is that WL both was largely instrumental in raising up LCs in the US and also wholly responsible for tearing them down, and he did this through insisting that every LC would be married to the LSM. The LSM is the husband of every proper LC. Without being wed to and staying married to the LSM, an LC becomes a divorced or shamed woman. This marriage actually produces a disfunctional family which destroys the whole idea of the local church that should have been established. In reality, the local church should have been local, with Christ as the head, but in actuality, and it doesn't matter how you want to bend and weave around it, WL/LSM is the head of the LC. I, for one, write this post because I am quite saddened that this is the case- that what could have been a real work of the Lord, was usurped by the work of a man. I did go and read the W Née "What are we?" writing. This really stood out to me. "When we consider the present-day church organizations, we see many human traditions and opinions and little direct leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not according to God’s desire. In God’s will, the church should not be under man’s control; it should be directed only by the Holy Spirit. All those who belong to the Lord should learn to be led by the Holy Spirit and should not follow man’s direction. These are all truths discovered by the Brethren.". If only WL would have learned this lesson from WN; the LCs could have been truly a recovered truth. Instead, a man created a business out of "ministry", married it to a Bible truth and destroyed the work that had been a long time making. It will only be that when the LCs divorce themselves from LSM that the truth will be restored.

Drake- look at the C in SD web site- history of section- no mention of WL, LSM? Come now, the married woman is afraid or ashamed to mention her husband! She wants to attract the lonely seeker with a smiling face, while sitting at home is the mean old man that will put the innocent seeker into indentured servitude. The seeker will then find out the attractive woman is a trap to catch souls for the husband's business. The seeker will either submit to the husband or run away and have a certain fear of ever trusting a simple Christian message again.

Drake, I think there is one standing outside a closed door knocking, saying be zealous and repent. The question is, is the LC movement so filled that they don't want to open that door? I hope not. I think the first thing would be to admit the real relationship between the LSM and the LC is the work of man, not the Holy Spirit.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Drake, I heard the Bema exhortation before from a local church member when, after meeting one of their members a number of years after I walked away from the LC. I asked the person "are you still following WL?", his response was "we don't follow a man". We had a small discussion about that point and he eventually said " if you were an Israelite in Egypt wouldn't you follow Moses?", justifying the following of WL. Then came the "meet you at the bema seat" statement.

My view is that WL both was largely instrumental in raising up LCs in the US and also wholly responsible for tearing them down, and he did this through insisting that every LC would be married to the LSM. The LSM is the husband of every proper LC. Without being wed to and staying married to the LSM, an LC becomes a divorced or shamed woman. This marriage actually produces a disfunctional family which destroys the whole idea of the local church that should have been established. In reality, the local church should have been local, with Christ as the head, but in actuality, and it doesn't matter how you want to bend and weave around it, WL/LSM is the head of the LC. I, for one, write this post because I am quite saddened that this is the case- that what could have been a real work of the Lord, was usurped by the work of a man. I did go and read the W Née "What are we?" writing. This really stood out to me. "When we consider the present-day church organizations, we see many human traditions and opinions and little direct leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not according to God’s desire. In God’s will, the church should not be under man’s control; it should be directed only by the Holy Spirit. All those who belong to the Lord should learn to be led by the Holy Spirit and should not follow man’s direction. These are all truths discovered by the Brethren.". If only WL would have learned this lesson from WN; the LCs could have been truly a recovered truth. Instead, a man created a business out of "ministry", married it to a Bible truth and destroyed the work that had been a long time making. It will only be that when the LCs divorce themselves from LSM that the truth will be restored.

Drake- look at the C in SD web site- history of section- no mention of WL, LSM? Come now, the married woman is afraid or ashamed to mention her husband! She wants to attract the lonely seeker with a smiling face, while sitting at home is the mean old man that will put the innocent seeker into indentured servitude. The seeker will then find out the attractive woman is a trap to catch souls for the husband's business. The seeker will either submit to the husband or run away and have a certain fear of ever trusting a simple Christian message again.

Drake, I think there is one standing outside a closed door knocking, saying be zealous and repent. The question is, is the LC movement so filled that they don't want to open that door? I hope not. I think the first thing would be to admit the real relationship between the LSM and the LC is the work of man, not the Holy Spirit.

Thanks Boxjobox,

First, the BEMA is real. I cannot speak for the one that mentioned it to you first, but if you read my comment on it, I applied to myself, Witness Lee, and Watchman Nee as well. Every christian will be judged at the Bema for how they build on the foundation. Ultimately, He is the righteous Judge and I am certain we both agree on that. Though it may not have been presented to you in a considerate way it is nevertheless an important event that we should have in view while in this life.

Yet, I still do not understand what is your view on the New Testament work of ministry.... the scriptural view of course. Because, the situation can be cast in any number of ways, but the glaring vacancy in your description is that there appears to be no work of ministry to care for and shepherd the local churches. You are someone that at an earlier time was impressed with the teaching about the local churches and enjoyed the church life for some time. Along comes LSM and asserts itself as "the husband of every LC" in your view..... but to that I say, not so at all. I never felt LSM was a husband in the half dozen churches I was in for forty years. Not one iota. Not even a little bit. But then, I understood the relationship to be the legitimate work of ministry according to the scriptures for the building up of the local churches, not a husband because we have only one Husband. So we are servants with a commission obligated to carry out our function before the Lord. The work of ministry is not the duty of a husband, rather it is a service to local churches to build the Body of Christ. If you do not have the scriptural definition of the work of ministry in your understanding then you will misinterpret the relationship between the work of ministry and the local churches.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if the history tab on the SD local church website mentions Brother Lee. If the connection is important it is in the Link tab and there you will find it. I would prefer the history not mention the work through which it came about because each local church was raised up by the Lord no matter which servant was the instrument. Yet, no one is distancing themselves from LSM.... even the Church in Cleveland links themselves to LSM!

thanks for the dialogue
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

My view is that WL both was largely instrumental in raising up LCs in the US and also wholly responsible for tearing them down, and he did this through insisting that every LC would be married to the LSM. The LSM is the husband of every proper LC. Without being wed to and staying married to the LSM, an LC becomes a divorced or shamed woman. This marriage actually produces a dysfunctional family which destroys the whole idea of the local church that should have been established. In reality, the local church should have been local, with Christ as the head, but in actuality, and it doesn't matter how you want to bend and weave around it, WL/LSM is the head of the LC.

I, for one, write this post because I am quite saddened that this is the case- that what could have been a real work of the Lord, was usurped by the work of a man. I did go and read the W Née "What are we?" writing. This really stood out to me. "When we consider the present-day church organizations, we see many human traditions and opinions and little direct leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not according to God’s desire. In God’s will, the church should not be under man’s control; it should be directed only by the Holy Spirit. All those who belong to the Lord should learn to be led by the Holy Spirit and should not follow man’s direction. These are all truths discovered by the Brethren.".

If only WL would have learned this lesson from WN; the LCs could have been truly a recovered truth. Instead, a man created a business out of "ministry", married it to a Bible truth and destroyed the work that had been a long time making. It will only be that when the LCs divorce themselves from LSM that the truth will be restored.

Drake- look at the C in SD web site- history of section- no mention of WL, LSM? Come now, the married woman is afraid or ashamed to mention her husband! She wants to attract the lonely seeker with a smiling face, while sitting at home is the mean old man that will put the innocent seeker into indentured servitude. The seeker will then find out the attractive woman is a trap to catch souls for the husband's business. The seeker will either submit to the husband or run away and have a certain fear of ever trusting a simple Christian message again.

Great summation of LC history, Boxjobox.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

When you say "They are interpreters of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We also believe this a special calling and apart from this special calling we would have reason to exist separately." this, to me, is the same as putting WL in the same category as Paul, Luke, John etc. you are saying he is special and that his interpretations are as important as scripture. It is the same as Peter's explanation “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” II Peter‬ *1:20-21‬ *NKJV‬‬.

Great verse to quote from II Peter! I'm not sure I've seen it written but definitely was taught, growing up in the LC, that WN and WL were apostles- like Paul.

I don't think I remember hearing any sort of comparison between them as to who was greater- it was explained more that it was equal.

Like I said, I don't know if it was printed but it was definitely taught in our locality. It was and still is presented in a way of WN and WL being the HIGHEST Christian authorities that provided the CORRECT way to move forward in Christian history, to "recover" the church.

It's interesting how all other fundamentalist/totalist groups also have such a set apart, strict culture and elite calling apart from other Christians.

But the LC is different, right?

Sorry, don't buy it!

You can't systemize the body of Christ, God, Jesus with a business meant to "carry out" God's eternal purpose as proposed by two men. Not to mention, two men that 99% of Christians (assuming) don't agree with.

Paul was an apostle and wrote a lot of the New Testament. EVERY protestant agrees with Martin Luther on justification by faith.

MOST Christians DO NOT believe WN and WL were apostles. It's outrageous in my opinion, to claim they were.