Two Year Training Testimonies

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Curiosity

I have heard that after college, you are expected to go to a two-year training in Anaheim. You attend church classes all day, every day I believe.

Are there any testimonies on how this training went? Benefits? Consequences?

Do you feel it put you behind in life while everyone else was getting jobs after college?

What was the experience like?

I did two years in FTTH, in Hamilton, New Zealand. Many parts of it I enjoyed thoroughly, but many parts of it scarred me deeply, hurting me deep within my core.

At the time, being the hardcore brother that I was, PSRP was my favourite activity ever so I was really in my element. I'd wave my fist around with gusto when singing and shout out lyrics mid-song etc, all fun. I was one of those brothers who 'exercised his spirit' like he was competing in the Olympics. But then other times I'd spend hours in prayer, weeping over various trials.

Some examples: In my first semester my security partner was *really* abusive (security guard duty), and when I finally went to the head brother about it, he basically said it was my fault and the Lord was teaching me not to be proud. I had told the leading brother that through all the abuse I was suffering from this abusive brother I always continued to pray for him, but he rebuked me and said that in those prayers, I felt in my heart that I was better than him. So I repented with tears and continued to take abuse from this brother, now knowing that I'm no better than he is and obviously deserve whatever ill treatment he gives me. He spat on my face and I just let it dry without wiping it away, because I wanted to be like Watchman Nee - "Let me love and not be respected".

Another time that same brother pulled a knife on another brother and I went to one of the teachers to tell on him, but he took me with him to go rebuke him and I had to stand there watching while he confiscated the knife - just so the abusive brother knew that it was me who narked. I locked my bedroom door at night for a week because I was so scared he would come beat me up. He was expelled, but only a month or so later.

Another time I felt really unloved because as a team coordinator everybody had demands and expectations on me but nobody showed me any kindness or respect. I was being taught that we were becoming God in life and nature and that God was agape love, but I didn't see the brothers as becoming agape love at all as I was just being bullied for not being good enough every day. Even the main head brother couldn't care less about me, and he always had this intimidating grumpy look on his face. It made it hard to accept what it was that he was teaching us, and made me think of 1 Cor. 13:2 "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing". By that implication, none of what I was being taught meant sh*t and I was wasting my life. Also, there was nothing to live for, because this was the most meaningful thing I ever found in my life so if it means nothing, nothing means anything. More hours spent weeping in prayer.

One time I learned in a class that enjoying anything other than Christ can lead our hearts away from him - literally anything that you enjoy is an idol. I prayed with tears that He would dry up all the enjoyment from my life and that I would never be able to take pleasure from anything other than Him ever again for the rest of my life, so that if I ever backslid, I would have no choice but to return to Him. Thank God He didn't answer that prayer! Just thinking back on it now I realise how f__ed up that prayer was, and the 'ministry' portion that led me to pray it.

As for job prospects? After I graduated I spent a few years on the unemployment benefit, unable to get work. I went to China to teach English because I couldn't get a job in New Zealand. Now that I'm back in NZ I'm starting my own business to make money because I still can't get a job, being in my 30s and having only waitering and English-teaching as work experience. Doing two years of NZTC can't take the full blame for that but it certainly didn't help. Its basically just a huge gap on my CV.

I am sorry you had to deal with that . The full time training is worst than boot camp . They break you down not build you up. I can not wait for the day they are before their knees before their god .

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Bradley

As for job prospects? After I graduated I spent a few years on the unemployment benefit, unable to get work. I went to China to teach English because I couldn't get a job in New Zealand. Now that I'm back in NZ I'm starting my own business to make money because I still can't get a job, being in my 30s and having only waitering and English-teaching as work experience. Doing two years of NZTC can't take the full blame for that but it certainly didn't help. Its basically just a huge gap on my CV.

Attending the FTT requires an extraordinary level of commitment, particularly having to set aside two full years of one's life. I’ve known quite a few who have attended, and I always thought it was a bit sad when they were pressured to make that kind of commitment, not realizing the consequences of what it entailed.

Putting a career on hiatus for two years after graduating college is not something most people would consider to be advisable. And there’s no reason why people should be expected or pressured to have to make such a decision. But those doing the pressuring don’t care about the consequences of attending the FTT, they just care about getting people into the training.

I know FTT graduates who have good degrees, and they had trouble finding good work due to the inexplicable ‘gap’ in their resume. Some of them knew they wouldn’t be able to find work so they resorted to “serving full-time” for a while in attempt to postpone the inevitable. Others graduated and couldn’t decide on any meaningful direction for their life.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Attending the FTT requires an extraordinary level of commitment, particularly having to set aside two full years of one's life. I’ve known quite a few who have attended, and I always thought it was a bit sad when they were pressured to make that kind of commitment, not realizing the consequences of what it entailed.

Putting a career on hiatus for two years after graduating college is not something most people would consider to be advisable. And there’s no reason why people should be expected or pressured to have to make such a decision. But those doing the pressuring don’t care about the consequences of attending the FTT, they just care about getting people into the training.

I know FTT graduates who have good degrees, and they had trouble finding good work due to the inexplicable ‘gap’ in their resume. Some of them knew they wouldn’t be able to find work so they resorted to “serving full-time” for a while in attempt to postpone the inevitable. Others graduated and couldn’t decide on any meaningful direction for their life.

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

I'm sure some have fared better than others. I can think of some I knew who did just fine afterwards without becoming a full timer. Some of the "church kids" I know that attended knew better than to "drop everything" when they attended the FTT.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

Are you implying that ending up as a full-timer isn't a success story?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Are you implying that ending up as a full-timer isn't a success story?

K,

I wasn’t thinking of that when asking my question.

This site spends alot of time discussing the negative aspects of the Witness Lee churches - as it should, it is our duty to warn others. But there are true Christians in these Churches, so I was wondering if anyone could share success stories. We could also include Full Timers on that list that are working as servants of Christ and not the LSM.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

K,

I wasn’t thinking of that when asking my question.

This site spends alot of time discussing the negative aspects of the Witness Lee churches - as it should, it is our duty to warn others. But there are true Christians in these Churches, so I was wondering if anyone could share success stories. We could also include Full Timers on that list that are working as servants of Christ and not the LSM.

Sorry, I couldn't help but take the bait

I truly believe there are true Christians in the LC. I guess I believe, even for the "success" stories, that it's really not a success if you're mislead in your faith with bad practices common to a group.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

Bradley,

Thanks for having the courage to share. It will help many who have likewise suffered.

My story: about 20 yr ago I left the LC, and because my consciousness had been dominated by the immersive "church life" I was adrift.

After about 5 mostly purposeless and frustrating years I got a revelation, that I was on earth to help others. Like many, I'd been misled by the false dichotomy of "sacred" vs "secular" realms. God is King of everything!

I purposed to help others, and my life took an immediate turn, and I never looked back. Every day is it's own reward.; every day is full of challenge, opportunity, meaning, and grace.

I started on the bottom and worked and worked. I loved every minute. I have been promoted 4 times & now make decent wages, but that never mattered. The Lord provides always.

I've been led by 2 principles: "What you do to the least of these my brothers, you do unto me", and "Whatever you do to others, God will do to you." That's it: simple but it's never failed to guide, to encourage & to strengthen.

The Lord bless your journey with peace, joy & love. I believe you have a great adventure waiting.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

Sadly enough, what I also observed is that those who were the most enthusiastic about attending the training were usually the ones who fared the worst. The reason being is that either the training didn't meet their expectations, or in more extreme cases, their enthusiasm was used against them.

One example in particular comes to mind. A brother I knew my whole life was the model prospective trainee. He went through high school and college with every intention of going to the training, and all plans revolved around that. Once he got in the training, however, he was assigned to a team to serve in a locality the trainers very well knew he didn't want to be in. Actually, no one wanted to serve in that locality, because the elder there who was overseeing the trainees was known to be mentally unstable. The trainers in Anaheim very well knew this.

Needless to say, this brother was devastated and dropped out of the training. I was shocked to see something like that happen to someone who was so dead set on going to the FTT. It definitely was a factor influencing my eventual decision to not attend the FTT. After year or so, this brother was somehow coerced to come back and complete the training (serving in the same locality), under the guise of being made to think that he just needed more 'perfecting'.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Bradley

My goal was to become a full-timer. I went to the training for the sole purpose of being a full-timer, it was my dream. I was going to migrate to France for the Lord's move in Europe and serve there. The day before I graduated, a leading brother came and tapped on my shoulder and told me that I wasn't going to be a full-timer and I have to get a job. At the time I was devastated.

WOW!!! Are you serious? I would say I'm sorry but I can't help but to think you probably dodged a bullet....

It seems like they're in no position to turn people down. Do you know how often they do that?

Maybe if they sense you can think for yourself, you're obviously not going to be a good fit.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

WOW!!! Are you serious? I would say I'm sorry but I can't help but to think you probably dodged a bullet....

It seems like they're in no position to turn people down. Do you know how often they do that?

Maybe if they sense you can think for yourself, you're obviously not going to be a good fit.

No the reason they gave was that I didn't have enough work experience to be able to get a good career at the drop of the hat in case the elders decided to stop supporting me financially. Basically, if I was to serve, I would have been dependent. If I had served for a decade or something, and then they said "okay go get a job", I would have been screwed. So they wouldn't let me serve for my own sake.

That motivated me to learn internet marketing, I taught myself web design and SEO with the motivation that one day I would be able to support myself financially but still have the whole day free to serve the church and the gospel. As it turns out I don't care about the 'church' anymore, hardly even think about the gospel much less preach it, and my online business is just beginning to make money.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Surely there are success stories for those who went through FTTA and didn’t end up as a full timer?

I consider myself a success. Went through the FTTA, eventually got a good job, and am now an agnostic and no longer bother with this nonsense. Life is much better now

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I consider myself a success. Went through the FTTA, eventually got a good job, and am now an agnostic and no longer bother with this nonsense. Life is much better now

Thanks Unreg - about how many people were in your FTTA class? Of those, are there more that have left the faith? I've visited headquarters in Anaheim, its a pretty wild place... I would appreciate hearing more about your FTTA experience.

On a separate note, if you have any interest in hearing about my testimony and experience with Jesus, shoot me a message.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Thanks Unreg - about how many people were in your FTTA class? Of those, are there more that have left the faith? I've visited headquarters in Anaheim, its a pretty wild place... I would appreciate hearing more about your FTTA experience.

On a separate note, if you have any interest in hearing about my testimony and experience with Jesus, shoot me a message.

I think there were around 100 in my graduating class. I am only aware of one other person that either graduated with me or within a year that left the faith.

Honestly I had a great time in the FTTA. I felt full of purpose and really enjoyed the environment and the people I was around. I was gung-ho and all-in. There were some hard times and personal sacrifices that I regret in hindsight. However at the time it really felt like God's plan for me and that I was "one with Him in His economy." It's really only in retrospect that I see the whole experience as whacky to understate the matter. So yes, I enjoyed the FTTA.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think there were around 100 in my graduating class. I am only aware of one other person that either graduated with me or within a year that left the faith.

Honestly I had a great time in the FTTA. I felt full of purpose and really enjoyed the environment and the people I was around. I was gung-ho and all-in. There were some hard times and personal sacrifices that I regret in hindsight. However at the time it really felt like God's plan for me and that I was "one with Him in His economy." It's really only in retrospect that I see the whole experience as whacky to understate the matter. So yes, I enjoyed the FTTA.

How do you go from being "one with Him and His economy" to seeing the experience as whacky? As an agnostic, what do you attribute your feelings of oneness to God's economy?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I consider myself a success. Went through the FTTA, eventually got a good job, and am now an agnostic and no longer bother with this nonsense. Life is much better now

Unreg,

I also went agnostic for 2 or 3 yr post-LC. Focused on job, school, life. Learned to think again. Learned to be nobody. I was no longer 'special' thru association, part of 'God's best'. I was just another doofus out on the street.

Eventually I came back to God, and to the Jesus of the Bible, but on entirely different terms. No longer was I interested in being dominated by an all-too-human assembly. If I saw something, it was because I saw something, not because someone else told me that I saw something.

Been there, done that. As the hymn's chorus put it, "No, no, no no no - I'll never go back anymore. . . "

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Attending the FTT requires an extraordinary level of commitment, particularly having to set aside two full years of one's life. I’ve known quite a few who have attended, and I always thought it was a bit sad when they were pressured to make that kind of commitment, not realizing the consequences of what it entailed.

Putting a career on hiatus for two years after graduating college is not something most people would consider to be advisable. And there’s no reason why people should be expected or pressured to have to make such a decision. But those doing the pressuring don’t care about the consequences of attending the FTT, they just care about getting people into the training.

I know FTT graduates who have good degrees, and they had trouble finding good work due to the inexplicable ‘gap’ in their resume. Some of them knew they wouldn’t be able to find work so they resorted to “serving full-time” for a while in attempt to postpone the inevitable. Others graduated and couldn’t decide on any meaningful direction for their life.

I dont believe that. You put the 2 year 'gap' on your resume and treat it like any other bible qualification. You also highlight the transferable skills gained at the training. Many young people have gaps nowadays from going travelling and exploring the world anyway.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I dont believe that. You put the 2 year 'gap' on your resume and treat it like any other bible qualification. You also highlight the transferable skills gained at the training. Many young people have gaps nowadays from going travelling and exploring the world anyway.

Having a "Bible qualification" does not automatically translate into real world job skills. Most people realize this. That is why outside the LCM, people do not attend a seminary or Bible school just because. They do it with a purpose in mind, such as if they intend to become a pastor. Also, the decision is in lieu of pursuing a traditional career. Interestingly, the LCM seems to frown upon those who decide to take a career path seriously. It's almost as if they are suggesting that anyone who doesn't attend the FTT has their priorities messed up, when in reality it should be the other way around.

I'm not out to bash those who have attended the FTT. I wish all the best for them. What I'm saying is that if they were pressured into attending or attended in an indecisive manner, then generally speaking, they will have their work cut out for them after graduating.

One of my friends who attended the FTT has called me a few times over the past few years probing for career advice. I have been hesitant to offer him anything specific because his problem was exactly what I mentioned in my post - a two year inexplicable resume 'gap'. I can't do anything for him to make that go away. By contrast, I know a few trainees who graduated and had jobs waiting for them - at their family businesses. Some have it a lot easier, they knew a job would be waiting for them going in. Not all have to worry about what happens after the training, but it still should be a concern for the majority of the trainees.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Having a "Bible qualification" does not automatically translate into real world job skills. Most people realize this. That is why outside the LCM, people do not attend a seminary or Bible school just because. They do it with a purpose in mind, such as if they intend to become a pastor. Also, the decision is in lieu of pursuing a traditional career. Interestingly, the LCM seems to frown upon those who decide to take a career path seriously. It's almost as if they are suggesting that anyone who doesn't attend the FTT has their priorities messed up, when in reality it should be the other way around.

I'm not out to bash those who have attended the FTT. I wish all the best for them. What I'm saying is that if they were pressured into attending or attended in an indecisive manner, then generally speaking, they will have their work cut out for them after graduating.

One of my friends who attended the FTT has called me a few times over the past few years probing for career advice. I have been hesitant to offer him anything specific because his problem was exactly what I mentioned in my post - a two year inexplicable resume 'gap'. I can't do anything for him to make that go away. By contrast, I know a few trainees who graduated and had jobs waiting for them - at their family businesses. Some have it a lot easier, they knew a job would be waiting for them going in. Not all have to worry about what happens after the training, but it still should be a concern for the majority of the trainees.

I'd like to make a few comments about Titus Chu's "trainings," which he could never call a "training," because only W. Lee was supposedly qualified to "train," so he called them "labor." Look back, some of this talk is pretty childish. Anyways ...

TC's plan was very considerate of young people's career paths. His time frame was reduced to 10 month, but more importantly at least for college students, he preferred that students participate while in college, because it was far easier for them to return to college for their junior or senior year, than it would be to enter the work force.

Secondly, the focus of study was not Lee's materials, but the Bible. Lee's books could be used as reference, but he felt all the saints needed a foundation in scripture before reading ministry books. Personally I felt greatly benefited in the areas of Bible study and public speaking.

Yes, from these "labors" some began to serve full-time, and they were often selected rather than called by the Lord, but very few had difficulty reentering "civilian" life.

Here have been some of my observations..

The ones with the best job prospects seem to be the ones that trained in the healthcare industry (medicine, dentistry, nursing, pharmacy etc.) who worked for a year or two before attending the FTT and maintained a relationship with their employer during the FTT.

The few that get married soon after the FTT are for the most part "normal" (if you get my drift) and have done right for themselves by breaking the rules a bit while in the FTT.

Then theres the ones who were kind of oddballs to begin with and come out of the FTT even more peculiar and have no idea to to function in the real world. They end up serving full time which kind of makes them odder and then finding someone to marry gets even harder. By then they are approaching their 30's and end up in some semi-arranged marriage situation.. often a 30 something year old sister with a 20 something year old brother which I have nothing against if they genuinely love each other, its just a bit of a trend I've noticed.

I have particularly noticed that with sisters the desperation to get married is REAL! Lets be honest for us women our "market value" only decreases with age. By the time they are approaching 30 you can smell the desperation from a mile away which I can imagine is only more off putting to men.

Then there are the stories of a bunch of FTT sisters practically fighting over the same 1 or 2 brothers... usually the token white minority male.

But what can you expect when from the age of 11 you are constantly warned about the opposite sex at every single camp/conference/training. They even go so far as to word it like, "We are all brothers and sisters. You do not kiss/have sexual relationships with your brothers or sisters so why is it any different in the church life? It is only ok when you are older and have finished the training." ACTUALLY insinuating incest because....logic! (I actually heard this as a high schooler).

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by LaLaLaLaLa

But what can you expect when from the age of 11 you are constantly warned about the opposite sex at every single camp/conference/training.

Going a little bit off topic...Having gone through the constant warnings in my LC upbringing, I certainly did not want my children going through it. Especially for ones who are obedient to the warnings you end up being dysfunctional in relating to the opposite sex as people. I didn't want my children subjected to those feelings.

Originally Posted by Terry

Going a little bit off topic...Having gone through the constant warnings in my LC upbringing, I certainly did not want my children going through it. Especially for ones who are obedient to the warnings you end up being dysfunctional in relating to the opposite sex as people. I didn't want my children subjected to those feelings.

Completely agree. Everything about the way the LC handles relationships is so unnatural and dysfunctional. And then the elders get all concerned about the ageing unmarried sisters...!?

It always amused me how people in so called degraded christianity seem to have no problem finding a partner and getting married. Having been exposed to more degraded christianity than your regular church kid I observed that many of them meet when they are in their teens or early 20's and for the most part develop completely healthy, respectful, loving relationships which lead to marriage. Meanwhile in the LC you get constantly bombarded with guilt/shaming tactics all through high school, college and the FTT and as a result are incapable of fostering a healthy relationship with someone of the opposite sex.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Having a "Bible qualification" does not automatically translate into real world job skills. Most people realize this. That is why outside the LCM, people do not attend a seminary or Bible school just because. They do it with a purpose in mind, such as if they intend to become a pastor. Also, the decision is in lieu of pursuing a traditional career. Interestingly, the LCM seems to frown upon those who decide to take a career path seriously. It's almost as if they are suggesting that anyone who doesn't attend the FTT has their priorities messed up, when in reality it should be the other way around.

I'm not out to bash those who have attended the FTT. I wish all the best for them. What I'm saying is that if they were pressured into attending or attended in an indecisive manner, then generally speaking, they will have their work cut out for them after graduating.

One of my friends who attended the FTT has called me a few times over the past few years probing for career advice. I have been hesitant to offer him anything specific because his problem was exactly what I mentioned in my post - a two year inexplicable resume 'gap'. I can't do anything for him to make that go away. By contrast, I know a few trainees who graduated and had jobs waiting for them - at their family businesses. Some have it a lot easier, they knew a job would be waiting for them going in. Not all have to worry about what happens after the training, but it still should be a concern for the majority of the trainees.

I think you are overstating the importance of the "two year gap". Sensationalizing it as well by your use of the term "inexplicable".
A two year gap is not inexplicable if you explain it properly. It is always explicable to say exactly what you were doing to a potential employer. I don't think many would care about a 2 year gap. Experience and skills is the main thing.

A two year gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, many young people waste that time or the equivalent of it by going to night clubs and travelling to strange places.

To imply as you are that 2 years is ruining someone's career prospects for life is ridiculous.

Do you have any bible support that a career is more important than God's work?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think you are overstating the importance of the "two year gap". Sensationalizing it as well by your use of the term "inexplicable".
A two year gap is not inexplicable if you explain it properly. It is always explicable to say exactly what you were doing to a potential employer. I don't think many would care about a 2 year gap. Experience and skills is the main thing.

A two year gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, many young people waste that time or the equivalent of it by going to night clubs and travelling to strange places.

To imply as you are that 2 years is ruining someone's career prospects for life is ridiculous.

Do you have any bible support that a career is more important than God's work?

There is some truth to what you're saying here... but I can also tell you've never run your own business or hired anyone before.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think you are overstating the importance of the "two year gap". Sensationalizing it as well by your use of the term "inexplicable".
A two year gap is not inexplicable if you explain it properly. It is always explicable to say exactly what you were doing to a potential employer. I don't think many would care about a 2 year gap. Experience and skills is the main thing.

It is inexplicable because it does not have anything to do with a career path, and any potential employer that is smart isn't going to bring up the subject of religion or religious activities.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A two year gap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, many young people waste that time or the equivalent of it by going to night clubs and travelling to strange places.

That is a generalization.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you have any bible support that a career is more important than God's work?

The LCM teaches a false dichotomy of "God's work" vs. having a career. Everyone has a basic responsibility to be able to provide for themselves and their family:
1 Tim 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.