First Post kumbaya

[kumbaya]

He is, Amen

[kumbaya]

To anyone who's interested in reading this- I thought it cleared up some questions I had about WL's mindset.

I'm kind of a psychology junkie so I find this fascinating whether related to the LC or not.

I've read a little bit about thought reform tactics and coercive persuasion tactics, Totalism, and other tactics used to create control and exploit.

From what I understand, "thought reform" as we know it now originated in China (or was used then) in the 40's and 50's by the communist government. There's all kinds of tactics from mild to extreme. It really bothered me to have to recognize that I see these implemented by WL and practiced. Whether or not you agree on the morality of using these methods- they were and are used. When I have more time I can go back and point out just the ones I saw. I'm sure most former members could look up Chinese thought reform and recognize it themselves as well.

So, the point is - they were/are used. I can't convince anyone on the morality of that and we have to decide that for ourselves. Maybe WL truly believed he was doing it for the "greater good" and that the saints would all be better off if he used the same methods used by the Chinese communist government on Christians. Maybe, maybe not.

There's little doubt, in my opinion, that this was not a well-thought out plan and strategy used by WL. His writings/teachings/arguments are full of totalism and the thought reform/coersive persuasion techniques. It's there- you can decided for yourself if it's wrong or not but it's at least mixing preaching the gospel with a method meant to manipulate and exploit. I do not doubt that WL was a very smart man, probably a genius.

For a few months, I've been trying to point these things out my family and friends in the church. Some are as shocked as me but others won't hear it. I've been realizing how hard it is for them to just "hear" another point of view because of these tactics used on them. I admit, I didn't want to hear anything negative about the church in the past. The fear of being "poisoned" is real! Also, because they associate their relationship with the Lord to the LC due to these tactics, it's an inevitable strong hold to block out reason and not listen to it. These tactics create a situation where their very existence and spirituality is threatened by the possibility that the Lord's Recovery isn't real and the local church has or always was a cult. I realized that they are very damaged by these methods. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I wasn't too. Most experts agree that these techniques are psychologically damaging. The biggest one I see that prevents them from seeing through it is disinhibition. This is where you reduce someone to a child-like state where they are unable to think critically or make decisions for themselves. I believe it's evil, but- how could WL use it and it not be? I feel like if I could just explain to my family these tactics then maybe they could see. I know it's not my job to do anything and I should just pray but I'm having a hard time accepting that it's all I can do.

I read a study on thought reform in China by Robert Lifton and came across a video of a speech he gave on a topic related to it. It's over the thought reform methods used in cults/governments in past/present and the effects they could have on our future and implications of that. I feel like knowledge is power (mental strength) and I don't even need to read anything attacking the LC. All I have to do is read and educate myself on what healthy/unhealthy practices are and I can just look at the LC and say, "Yep, that's wrong and it's damaging people."

The clip is REALLY good and I need to listen to it again. His audience is obviously an academic crowd so he doesn't always speak in layman's terms.

I felt like I recognized many of the techniques he talks about in the LC and wanted to share.

I know we all have our input to bring to the table and I'm less informed on theology and more prone to recognize the psychology/social aspects of a situation. By no means am I an expert though- I just like reading what the experts say and talking about it

Not ALL of this video relates to what I see in the LC but you'll be able to pick out for yourself.

I still want to learn about how to possibly bring this up to my family. I was thinking that if they could just educate themselves on these tactics and be able to spot them... that might help separate their relationship with the Lord from the LC. We really have all been programmed by WL.... I can't imagine being 40 plus years in the LC and realizing this.... at what point is it not worth the pain?
I definitely have more of a burden for the younger generation, just bc they have their whole lives ahead of them. But everyone needs to know.

How do people "de-program" though?? Can you help them? Should you?

Here's the link.....

https://archive.org/details/RobertJa...yTotalismCults

[Ohio]

We have had lots of discussion on this Spiritual Abuse Titles sub-forum.

The poster named aron has provided much information about western vs. oriental thought, the former stressing individuality liberties, and the latter stressing the collective group think. Witness Lee modeled much of LSM and its control over the LC's on Chinese culture. His first decade in the US was much more conducive to individual liberty of the Spirit. In Jan. 1974 things began to change for the worse.

For example, what I call the ministry of "early-Lee" stressed walking by the Spirit and building up autonomous local churches. Most of today's older leaders joined the movement during those early days. "Later-Lee," however. stressed the "body-life" and being "one with the ministry." Lee would use every crisis in the Recovery to expedite his takeover of the LC's. Sometimes he would even manufacture a crisis when needed, but convince the members it was all the Lord's doing.

Here is one thread started by aron on Brainwashing

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We have had lots of discussion on this Spiritual Abuse Titles sub-forum.

The poster named aron has provided much information about western vs. oriental thought, the former stressing individuality liberties, and the latter stressing the collective group think. Witness Lee modeled much of LSM and its control over the LC's on Chinese culture. His first decade in the US was much more conducive to individual liberty of the Spirit. In Jan. 1974 things began to change for the worse.

For example, what I call the ministry of "early-Lee" stressed walking by the Spirit and building up autonomous local churches. Most of today's older leaders joined the movement during those early days. "Later-Lee," however. stressed the "body-life" and being "one with the ministry." Lee would use every crisis in the Recovery to expedite his takeover of the LC's. Sometimes he would even manufacture a crisis when needed, but convince the members it was all the Lord's doing.

Here is one thread started by aron on Brainwashing

This is right up my alley! Thank you, I will definitely read it. I talked to my family today a little about this whole thing. I know I need to read more first on how to do that but I'm trusting that our relationship is strong enough to just be honest and respectful. I mentioned that I saw practices that I didn't think were healthy and why. I mentioned how I thought there were negative effects of those and said I'd be happy to go into what those practices were if they wanted to know. The thing is, unless you're an expert in thought reform tactics and ALSO have transitioned out of a thought reform group- I don't think you can begin to understand how hard it will be. I've read that most of the time, when you're in a group that uses thought reform tactics, the thing that is most likely to get you out of it is a negative personal experience within the group that causes you to see the unhealthy behaviors....

I'm just going to have to be really careful bc I just got my feelings hurt a "teeny" bit and saw how bad things would be if more hurt feelings happened on either side. I was about to explain a thought I had about LSM and I got laughed at. I realize this is silly but the person who did it would never normally do that. I realized its just a defense mechanism and I understand. We all have defenses but it made me realize that they weren't going to hear me.

Yesterday I had a realization about this whole issue of being in thought reform for so long...

I saw a closed group on Facebook the other day called "Flat Earthists." It stated it wasn't there to discuss the legitimacy of the earth being flat instead of round, but you had to be a "flatty" (WOW! LOL) to join. I thought it was a joke but then yesterday while driving, I saw a car with a sticker in the windshield that said "the earth is flat." I looked it up and I couldn't believe it- there are a growing number of people who believe this!! I was just shocked and started to laugh to myself, amazed at the idea that people could be such idiots!

Then, I realized- I actually don't KNOW the earth isn't flat. I mean, I haven't traveled from one point of the world, in a circle, to end up in the same place. I BELIEVE that I live in a world where a lie that HUGE could not be propagated to the masses and sold as a fact. I don't believe that kind of manipulation could occur in modern society.

However, I do not know this to be a FACT- I accept and believe the evidence I've seen showing the earth is round.. I trust what society has told me.

Granted, what members in the local church believe is definitely not as widely accepted as the assumption that the earth is in fact, round. And the fact that the earth is round isn't something I think about every day or hang my present and eternal existence on. But, for the sake of trying to explain the complicated and difficult process of coming out of a thought reform environment....What if the earth was ACTUALLY FLAT and we have all been deceived??? It would be an earth shattering (haha!!!) event in our lives!! We would probably want ALL the evidence and EVERYTHING EXPOSED in order to confirm that we had, in fact, been deceived. We would have to figure out how to accept this new truth and move on with our lives. There would probably still be many that wouldn't accept this new information and continue to think the earth was round. The idea that they could have possibly been deceived is unimaginable and they couldn't function in a flat earth, only a round one.

Take a fourth of the shock you'd feel (I admit- I'm stretching it here, ha!!) if you found out the earth was flat and that's how I've been feeling the last few months. It has changed everything for me. Actually, as hard as it is- I can already see that it's helping me become more independent and accountable to myself. I know this is going to be a hard but positive journey (at least I have faith that it will be).

My point is, THE EFFECTS OF THOUGHT REFORM ARE REAL. It is HARD to go on when you were RAISED AS A CHILD to believe in a certain belief system and (bc of thought reform tactics) associate your identity with it.

The idea that my family was KNOWINGLY DECEIVED into believing someone else's "version" of Christianity is hard to accept and move forward from. I think for a lot of kids that grew up in it and have family there- it's like replacing the phrase, "Yes, the earth exists but its flat." with the phrase, "Yes, Jesus and the body of Christ exists, but the Lord's Recovery has it all wrong (btw, it may be a cult)."

"P.S. Have fun accepting your new reality that most of your family may consider you poisonous one day for believing all this!!"

I'll tell you- It's not a great feeling to have.

I'm just realizing what a difficult process it was for me to see that all the damaging things and hurtful things were the "fruit" of unhealthy and manipulative practices. I'm also just realizing what a journey this will still be of self-discovery and personal growth (hopefully). I am admittedly guarded with discussing spiritual things with people who might want to advise me but I feel at peace believing that I'm healing right now and that Jesus and I are just taking this thing slow, day by day. He knows my heart, He knows I want truth and Him. I know I'm damaged emotionally (mainly due to my failed marriage) and that has made me pretty guarded with most people. Combining that with learning about what unhealthy church practices were, reading about things in the LC in the past, and recognizing what I believe are thought reform tactics in the LC- it's just all been very overwhelming and emotionally painful.

I think it's important to remember, in regards to talking with my family/friends, that I came to this realization after I separated myself from it and actively searched for the truth because I was brave enough to want to know. I DIDN'T and still don't want to believe it but I want truth and as of now, this is what I'm seeing to be real.

I'm still going to read more on how to talk to family and I am so incredibly grateful for the support here and the links to help advise/inform. They have either been in the LC all their lives or the majority of it and aren't able to see the red flags. Ironically, a huge red flag to me that LSM is exploiting them is just their bookshelves! In one of my family members home, there are 3 BIG built-in bookshelves with all the Life Studies on display. One of the 3 is FULL of LSM material in the bottom cabinets and there's another stand alone bookshelf with 4 rows (at least) of more LSM material. I'm all about reading but I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any books NOT published by LSM on those shelves. Possibly a few, but I would be VERY surprised if there were even 10 (and I'm feeling generous in saying that). Granted, my family has been in the church for decades now but this is almost the norm if you've been in that long. Of course, this doesn't include tithes (which I agree to giving to churches that keep their finances open to members and still not clear on what's used for their locality, what's LSM, and what's used for their legal battles but that's another post!) and it doesn't include what they've spent on training expenses (they usually go twice a year, at least once). Now, I'm not saying it's wrong to have just one Christian author's writings on bookshelves on display, but I am DEFINITELY saying I believe it's unbalanced no matter what you believe about the material. I'm not kidding, the Life Studies and books probably total over 500, give or take a hundred. I can't even begin to think about what that collection may have cost! I think that by itself is (most likely) a sign that you are elevating these writings to a level they shouldn't be at. I don't have the heart to say this to my family but given the season of Christmas and agreed upon feeling among saints in the LC that Christmas trees are "idols" - I can't help but thinking it's the "pot calling the kettle black." Of course, I have no accusations towards them about it. Anyone who is subject to manipulation and exploitation in a church will show the effects of it. It's very normal for the saints to display LSM material in their homes and group think tactics are used on them- so, what else would you expect??

I know we have to take what we hear with a grain of salt but where there's smoke, there's fire. Ironically, my dad used to always say that! I've seen the same thing repeated enough to suspect some truth to events that are alleged. I have also listened to recordings and personally seen the practices while in the church that I believe to be wrong. I've read SO much on what healthy spiritual guidance/teachings should look like (not even mentioning WL or the LC) bc I had to prove to myself that I believed I was doing the right thing by taking a stand against the manipulative practices of thought reform used and exploitation of Christians by the LSM. All you have to do is educate yourself on these things. It sounds so much easier when you say it like that!!! If only....

Thank you guys for the support and Ohio, I'm going to check those links out. Thanks so much!

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

This is right up my alley! Thank you, I will definitely read it. I talked to my family today a little about this whole thing. I know I need to read more first on how to do that but I'm...

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

Haha!!! If only I were that excited about it Right now I'm boohooing saying that but someday I'll get there- someday soon hopefully!!!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

How do people "de-program" though?? Can you help them? Should you?

My thoughts are to make sure you complete the process yourself first. And, keep in mind that Jesus himself is the truth (John 14:6), and continuing in His word is what causes you to know the truth, and it is the truth that sets you free (John 8:31-32). He and His words are what free you, and others as well. Stay anchored there.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by JJ

My thoughts are to make sure you complete the process yourself first. And, keep in mind that Jesus himself is the truth (John 14:6), and continuing in His word is what causes you to know the truth, and it is the truth that sets you free (John 8:31-32). He and His words are what free you, and others as well. Stay anchored there.

In all love I say YES, make sure to start this process first. This may take time, but it’s crucial. I am still seeing things that are deeply embedded into my being from decades of LSM programming.

I threw ALL of the LSM materials I had in my house in the trash, including the Recovery Version of the Bible. There may actually be more words by WL in the RV version than those of God Himself! My “understanding” of the Scriptures was based entirely on WL and the LSM. That was my fault for not being a Berean. I believe this is the case for many in TLR.

Seek Him and ask the Holy Spirit to empty you of EVERYTHING that is NOT of God (teachings, culture, behavior, vocabulary, etc.). Ask Him to guide you as you read the Word.

He is faithful and will do it!

“Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.”

**1 Thessalonians‬ *5:24‬ *NASB‬‬

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

In all love I say YES, make sure to start this process first. This may take time, but it’s crucial. I am still seeing things that are deeply embedded into my being from decades of LSM programming.

I threw ALL of the LSM materials I had in my house in the trash, including the Recovery Version of the Bible. There may actually be more words by WL in the RV version than those of God Himself! My “understanding” of the Scriptures was based entirely on WL and the LSM. That was my fault for not being a Berean. I believe this is the case for many in TLR.

Seek Him and ask the Holy Spirit to empty you of EVERYTHING that is NOT of God (teachings, culture, behavior, vocabulary, etc.). Ask Him to guide you as you read the Word.

He is faithful and will do it!

“Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.”

**1 Thessalonians‬ *5:24‬ *NASB‬‬

Thank you for responding! A little while after your post I hesitantly, bravely, and determinedly threw away my Recovery version of the Bible with footnotes. I did keep the Recovery Version I had with no footnotes. Im just having faith that one is a good translation!! I don't want WL's footnotes mixed in though, even if I ignore it- its there. It felt right and may the Lord God have mercy and grace on me if it was an offense. I just don't feel it could be at this point.

Thanks for saying that, it definitely gave me the "push" I needed.

Out of curiosity, would you be interested in explaining what things were "embedded" into you? I'm starting to see things and behaviors of mine (even just in life) that I think were at least introduced or encouraged in the LC. I also think there are similarities with everyone but women will probably have another set of issues, possibly equal in number- but different.

For example (and again, the LC is just PART of the piece of the puzzle that influenced my personality- I do realize that), when your life path is "laid out" for you like it was growing up in the LC in 80's and 90's- for myself, it encouraged a lack of taking control of my own life and I was easily manipulated and influenced by people who didn't have my best interests at heart. Also, the "us vs. them" mentality created a feeling of being an outcast. Which, although was painful, it's ironically helped me in a strange way. However, the process of coming through that was pretty difficult and I'm not sure everyone could have come out stronger for it. With the culture of fear/shame (which arguably, I understand is in many churches), I feel the need to OVER-EXPLAIN myself and CONNECT (can be a good thing, only if its with the right person though!), and its almost like I need VALIDATION to make a choice for my OWN LIFE!!! Now, I understand this is a complicated issue and it's not JUST the culture of the local church and YP work that is to blame for these issues within myself. But, these issues began early on in my life and I can at least recognize that with as much time as we spent with the saints, the environment of group think and influence didn't help me with these issues. I believe they either initiated them or further deepened them. I want to be careful when I say that too because I'm truly not pointing my finger or shaking my first at anyone in particular. I'm saying all this because I want us all TO BE BETTER!!!!! LET'S ALL JUST BE BETTER!!!! I don't know for sure if the Lord's Recovery is a movement that is necessary - I don't. But I just can't believe that it's going to happen in this sort of unhealthy and twisted group think environment.

Want to be a legitimate and respected group of believers and followers of Jesus? Then don't use the same tactics that cults use. Period - end of story.

This isn't flowing well and I'm running short on time and may edit later....I just thought of another issue or mindset embedded in me was the idea that something must be wrong with me if I didn't see or understand the infallible and undisputed teachings of the Living Stream Ministry books. Not just the Bible, the LSM uncovered truths in the Bible. It was VERY clear to me that to even leave the Recovery and be a missionary in Africa would be a LOW way of life- if that missionary was associated with a denomination.

Obviously, I'm talking about my family and my experience in one locality of the local church's in the 80's and 90's. Everyone's family and experience is different but I've also seen so many similarities. That's why I was hoping you could share a little of some of the ways you've "de-programmed" from this mindset. I feel like we might all have similar things to deal with regarding it!

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Thank you for responding! A little while after your post I hesitantly, bravely, and determinedly threw away my Recovery version of the Bible with footnotes. I did keep the Recovery Version I had with no footnotes.

Thanks for saying that, it definitely gave me the "push" I needed.

Out of curiosity, would you be interested in explaining what things were "embedded" into you? I'm starting to see things and behaviors of mine (even just in life) that I think were at least introduced or encouraged in the LC. I also think there are similarities with everyone but women will probably have another set of issues, possibly equal in number- but different.


Obviously, I'm talking about my family and my experience in one locality of the local church's in the 80's and 90's. Everyone's family and experience is different but I've also seen so many similarities. That's why I was hoping you could share a little of some of the ways you've "de-programmed" from this mindset. I feel like we might all have similar things to deal with regarding it!

I’m more happy to try to help a fellow believer and ex-LC’er. I’m pretty sure that I actually kept one RV Bible without footnotes as well. Anything with commentary hit the dumpster.

Concerning the things embedded/programmed into me, well, there were quite a few. The hivemind/groupthink was definitely there. Much of the LSM teaching regarding “poor degraded Christianity” and its view of the members of thereof, the elitest mindset, LDM lingo. Feeling that I had the best ministry on earth, yet being insatisfies with it and my walk with the Lord. Not wanting to fellowship with members of the Body outside of the LC. Man, so many things that don’t even come to mind right now, but I will catch when I hear myself talking with other believers who didn’t grow up in the LC.

In order to get de-programmed just ask the Holy Spirit to remove all that religious LSM junk and to renew your mind. 😃

Try to be open to other ministries. Listening to Dan Mohler has been AMAZING!

Watch this!

Dan M. Normal Christianity

I hope this helps.



Numbers 6:23-27

23 “Tell Aaron and his sons, ‘This is how you are to bless the Israelites. Say to them:

24 “‘“The Lord bless you
and keep you;

25 the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;

26 the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.”’

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I’m more happy to try to help a fellow believer and ex-LC’er. I’m pretty sure that I actually kept one RV Bible without footnotes as well. Anything with commentary hit the dumpster.

Concerning the things embedded/programmed into me, well, there were quite a few. The hivemind/groupthink was definitely there. Much of the LSM teaching regarding “poor degraded Christianity” and its view of the members of thereof, the elitest mindset, LDM lingo. Feeling that I had the best ministry on earth, yet being insatisfies with it and my walk with the Lord. Not wanting to fellowship with members of the Body outside of the LC. Man, so many things that don’t even come to mind right now, but I will catch when I hear myself talking with other believers who didn’t grow up in the LC.

In order to get de-programmed just ask the Holy Spirit to remove all that religious LSM junk and to renew your mind. ��

Try to be open to other ministries. Listening to Dan Mohler has been AMAZING!

Watch this!

Dan M. Normal Christianity

I hope this helps.



Numbers 6:23-27

23 “Tell Aaron and his sons, ‘This is how you are to bless the Israelites. Say to them:

24 “‘“The Lord bless you
and keep you;

25 the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;

26 the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.”’

Thank you! I just subscribed and will have to watch later, it's a little long being this late. I feel like anything that helped former LC members though is going to be good for me so thank you and I will watch it at some point! Maybe a car ride