First Post kumbaya

[least]

Originally Posted by JJ

Watching how children were “force fed” was one of the things that really bothered me.

kumbaya, I know this is your thread. I like to say something in response to JJ's post.

I've been thinking the last few days: I remember I watched on the Internet, LSM teenagers camp/conference video, how the kids were told they have to be 'age turners' ... like Daniel ... etc.,
The last few days I realised that, by the time they graduated, they then will be trained to be 'under and with' THE Ministry (Minister) Of THE AGE.

THE AGE. So, what age should these teenagers be turning? Overthrow THE AGE of the LSM MOTA?

What do they do to children, teenagers, and adults?

They (LSM blended leaders) say 'for the Lord' ... who/what is theirs (the Lord)?

Its disturbing.

-

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by least

kumbaya, I know this is your thread. I like to say something in response to JJ's post.

I've been thinking the last few days: I remember I watched on the Internet, LSM teenagers camp/conference video, how the kids were told they have to be 'age turners' ... like Daniel ... etc.,
The last few days I realised that, by the time they graduated, they then will be trained to be 'under and with' THE Ministry (Minister) Of THE AGE.

THE AGE. So, what age should these teenagers be turning? Overthrow THE AGE of the LSM MOTA?

What do they do to children, teenagers, and adults?

They (LSM blended leaders) say 'for the Lord' ... who/what is theirs (the Lord)?

Its disturbing.

-

This is ironic to me bc I believe my daughter has a shirt from the LC with the words, "Age-Turner" on it. Yes, I need to find it and see what verses they're using (if any) on it.

My first thought is that it sounds very elite. Pretty typical in the LC. I mean, just a regular shirt that said, "Christian" wouldn't be good enough, of course!
My second thought (aside from your point-which I agree with), is that there's somehow I'm implication that THESE people wearing THESE shirts are the ones who will save us all, because the age needs to be turned- right? Isn't that what they're saying needs to happen for the Lord to return? So, they're sort of saying that the age-turners are the ones who WILL bring Him back. Can people in denominations be age-turners too or is this just a LC thing? Oh, wow....

I believe the Lord will return but I don't know about him needing us all to wear shirts that claim we're the ones to do this. It's so so so stinkingly elite and arrogant.

I'm fine with any shirt with a verse or something like that but to call yourself something other than a "Christian, follower of Christ, or child of God" - is putting yourself above others.

Your point about it being an new "era" is accurate though. WL is dead, they need someone new to control them. The blending brothers who are the highest of the "age-turners" perhaps?

I'm sorry, that's very cynical. I do not have great feelings towards these "blending brothers."

As far as I'm concerned, if you need a website to defend yourself as a believer against things and the 2nd topic on your homepage is quarantine- then I suspect quarantine is an overused practice. I also can't believe how they don't use just the Bible to defend their practices and even when they try- its a stretch! For those haven't seen- their website is www.afaithfulword.com

Hmmm, a faithful word to who, exactly?

It's beyond arrogant that they believe they have the power to control other Christians like they're defending! How ironic is it to "humbly" believe that you are a better believer bc you're in the Lord's Recovery?

I should probably get rid of that shirt, lol.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

This is ironic to me bc I believe my daughter has a shirt from the LC with the words, "Age-Turner" on it. Yes, I need to find it and see what verses they're using (if any) on it.

That's actually destructive to their faith. I've seen it before.

Back in '87 we sent two young sisters to LSM's special summer training in Taipei and Irving. Supposedly life changing and age-turning for the gospel. In Irving their trainers stirred them up to confront all the elders to be re-baptized with them. How does that help them to respect authority? When they returned, they were filled with crazy concepts that they would multiply ten-fold, hundred-fold, thousand-fold with new ones. Unbelievable.

It was the Enemy's oldest trick in the book -- puff you up with elitest pride and then let you crash on the first day of class. Nearly all the young people were lost. LSM refused to even release statistics on how many were ruined by their nonsense. Our sisters basically vanished. LSM can only hype people up in public, yet have not a clue what long term damage it does to their young faith. Yet I'm sure exciting video was watched by W. Lee from the meetings.

Pitch the shirt and find some healthy, fruitful youth ministry for your daughter.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's actually destructive to their faith. I've seen it before.

Back in '87 we sent two young sisters to LSM's special summer training in Taipei and Irving. Supposedly life changing and age-turning for the gospel. In Irving their trainers stirred them up to confront all the elders to be re-baptized with them. How does that help them to respect authority? When they returned, they were filled with crazy concepts that they would multiply ten-fold, hundred-fold, thousand-fold with new ones. Unbelievable.

It was the Enemy's oldest trick in the book -- puff you up with elitest pride and then let you crash on the first day of class. Nearly all the young people were lost. LSM refused to even release statistics on how many were ruined by their nonsense. Our sisters basically vanished. LSM can only hype people up in public, yet have not a clue what long term damage it does to their young faith. Yet I'm sure exciting video was watched by W. Lee from the meetings.

Pitch the shirt and find some healthy, fruitful youth ministry for your daughter.

Thanks! Yeah, I realized I sounded really cynical last night and I apologize bc my issues are 100% with the blended brothers, LSM, and the system. I truly believe the people in the local church are being exploited and manipulated. I have zero issues with them because I know that in most cases, spiritual abuse is just in a culture. But cultures are created.

I've read some things in the ministry today that have really bothered me. I don't have time to post now but might list later. I've listened and read too much material on what are healthy and unhealthy practices, what healthy boundaries are, what mind control tactics exist to EVER be able to think that the culture of the local church is a healthy environment for a Christian.

I'll try to come back tonight and post again....

I keep thinking that I'm out of the shock phase but then I read something from WL that's so unbelievably extreme and offensive and I'm back there.

I really think, at this point....if I asked half of more of the people in my locality whether or not they believed some of this- that they would say they don't.

I feel like I have a pretty good gauge on this too. The local church has changed a lot and what I'm seeing now is a HUGE gap in what's in the ministry and how some saints live. It's much more "normal" now, but they still are in an environment that is suppressive to individuality and critical thinking. There are still a TON of unhealthy behaviors and mindsets.....but I do think they aren't as EXTREME as WL had intended them to be!

At what point are they going to have to stop selling some of WL's books and just sell the ones from the blended brothers?

Bc, I can tell you that just bc a local church has the numbers, does not mean they believe all of it.

The sad thing is, they could never ever oppose it. So they just ignore it as an old book.

Interesting situation.

I know for a fact that a LOT of the people in my old locality wouldn't agree to some of what I read today. And if they said they did then they'd be a hypocrite bc I know them and how they live/decisions they've made. I'm not saying they're bad decisions/mindsets at all- they're not! But according to WL, they would not be "giving Christ pre-immenense." I thought it was interesting with some of the examples he used. He can't really say that any of these examples are sins, because they are obviously not. But he has a very tricky way of encouraging people to be alienated from anything that's even just a normal way of life and labeling it as "worldly" and evil. He can't call it sin though so his examples would personally make me a crazy person if I took his advice! Everything from looking at a newspaper and combing my hair- I need to say yes to God and no to the devil. I shouldn't buy that thing on sale in the newspaper or go to the department stores, I need to say no to the devil telling me to do that.

I seriously wish I was kidding. The examples he used were so insane- I don't even remember reading things like this growing up. Maybe I just accepted it then or maybe this was an extreme case but I was just floored.

I also read his advice on taking abuse from an elder no matter what and never questioning. That makes you a martyr of course.

I'm sorry, from someone who HAS been in an abusive situation in life. I can NOT IMAGINE TELLING SOMEONE WHO IS BEING ABUSED TO STAY and that they'll be rewarded for it someday. Oh wait just a second (sarcasm), this is super convenient for you to say WL, bc people are saying how abusive the culture was and WL/Philip Lee's behavior was so it's all coming together now. It's all very convenient. He can't just come out and say "Don't question my abuse and controlling culture I'm creating." I'm going to make you blindly follow me by creating a culture of guilt and shame with expectations that you'll never be able to live up to and making you question every minute detail of your life until you blindly take everything I say as the undeniable truth..

He really was a genius.

The thing is, we know too much about psychology now to fall for it. My dad might not have and I don't blame him for it but I won't continue the cycle. Among many things, you should NEVER tell someone who is being abused emotionally or spiritually to suffer in silence. If they choose to, then that's their choice but it is just that- YOUR CHOICE AND YOUR CHOICE ONLY.

That really got me. Being abused has SERIOUS emotional and psychological damages. If our body is temple, how is that ok to let it be abused?

I'm waiting for the day when things stop shocking me.

Does that happen?

[Drake]

Hmmmm, the duck hears something.....he stirs

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I should probably get rid of that shirt, lol.

Is your daughter still a part of the Churches of Witness Lee? Like someone else said, "Pitch the shirt and find some healthy, fruitful youth ministry for your daughter."

A member of this forum has shared that he actually moved to a city that didn't have a Witness Lee church just to get away (he admitted it was silly, but he felt it necessary at the time). Getting your daughter out of that environment will be crucial for her walk with Christ. As you know, Witness Lee isn't who he claimed to be... nor who the blendeds claim him to be today. Their church is not what Witness Lee claimed it to be, nor what the blendeds claim it to be today... and what are the implications?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Is your daughter still a part of the Churches of Witness Lee? Like someone else said, "Pitch the shirt and find some healthy, fruitful youth ministry for your daughter."

A member of this forum has shared that he actually moved to a city that didn't have a Witness Lee church just to get away (he admitted it was silly, but he felt it necessary at the time). Getting your daughter out of that environment will be crucial for her walk with Christ. As you know, Witness Lee isn't who he claimed to be... nor who the blendeds claim him to be today. Their church is not what Witness Lee claimed it to be, nor what the blendeds claim it to be today... and what are the implications?

I agree with you but the problem for me is that I KNOW my family and friends do NOT believe this and its just so hard to accept.

No, I don't let her go anymore and I wasn't even going then. I had issues but I thought it was harmless for her (at first) so I let her go with family members. Thanks for the support- really. I feel like reading the things I read today from this obviously false and evil ministry re-shocked me in some sort of way,

I realized today that the reason some of these things that WL says wouldn't go over well with even local church members today- is that is was so based on the culture. I think control methods will and are used to the most extreme methods that they're still effective and back then, WL could say these things and get away with it. Even when it really was never something the Bible said!!

the Bible doesn't change with culture. Everything written by WL demands a higher standard than the Bible - a standard that is honestly just unattainable and confusing.

A quote I read today says, "If someone comes to us to say something negative about the church, about the elders, about the ministry, about the brothers, or about the sister, we have to realize that this person is a wrong person. We should stay away from such persons. Otherwise, we will be contaminated."

Well, in just a few sentences he's shown that there is no accountability in the local church and when someone could possibly see abuse and report it - they'll be dismissed as someone contaminating the group.

This isn't Christian....

Before this he talks about "rejecting our opinions".

No, you should have all the opinions you want. It's how you ACT of them and how you TREAT people that matters. To reduce someone to not be able to have opinions isn't right... Its a control tactic called disinhibition (look it up).

In his book, THE OVERCOMERS, he basically attacked all Christians besides the one in the local church and creates pressure to conform to an extremely strict and unrealistic lifestyle and ideology to become an overcomer.

I wasn't kidding in my previous post, I believe someone could easily become insane if they really asked the Lord whether or not they were giving Him the "preimmenense in their life" by combing their hair, looking at the newspaper, deciding to go to a department store....or getting a "worldly" haircut. I'm not sure what hair salons offer "un-wordly" haircuts but I guess all the saints go there! lol.... The quote actually said that if a sister had a worldly hairstyle then she wasn't giving Christ the preimmenense in her life. He gave the example of not being able to buy certain styles of neck ties bc that would be wrong too.

The examples were almost funny - except that what he's doing is creating a situation where no one can do anything without guilt.

I don't care what he has right, there's too much wrong.

I read a list of 26 mind control techniques today as well and the full time training used at least 17, arguably 19 of them.

Want to be a legitimate and respected Christian group? Stop using mind control techniques....