First Post kumbaya

[Indiana]

This is an excerpt from a book that took two years to complete Jan 2005 - Jan 2007 - an LC brother, still in good standing, edited this book called Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery. Our brother, Ron Kangas, has given his tacit approval to the veracity of this book. There have been no public criticisms of it by LSM.

When I read the post by Kumbaya I thought how sincere, how honest, and he invited correction. This also was my heart-attitude, felt deeply enough to produce the book that tells the other side of the disingenuous story given by LSM to the church.



Bill Mallon

"In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up.


"These matters of control and many other stories like them were reported to Brother Lee, but he had no ear to hear and no heart to know. Brother Lee said, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.” - Yet, that was not all he knew. Such dupery as this prevails in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion from seemingly godly men in their case to quarantine fellow co-workers in the Lord’s recovery. (email, Dec 2006)

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Indiana

This is an excerpt from a book that took two years to complete Jan 2005 - Jan 2007 - an LC brother, still in good standing, edited this book called Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery. Our brother, Ron Kangas, has given his tacit approval to the veracity of this book. There have been no public criticisms of it by LSM.

When I read the post by Kumbaya I thought how sincere, how honest, and he invited correction. This also was my heart-attitude, felt deeply enough to produce the book that tells the other side of the story to the one LSM gave to the church.



Bill Mallon

"In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up.


"These matters of control and many other stories like them were reported to Brother Lee, but he had no ear to hear and no heart to know. Brother Lee said, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.” - Yet, that was not all he knew. Such dupery as this prevails in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion from seemingly godly men in their case to quarantine fellow co-workers in the Lord’s recovery. (email, Dec 2006)

Thank you for posting! I'm taking it as a compliment that several people here think I'm male. Although I shouldn't feel that way- bc that would be sexist to my own self....

Hmmmm.....

It's just power play after power play. I could write a novel on spiritual traps (or- highly recommend the book, "The subtle power of spiritual abuse," which explains it very well. The sad thing is, the sheep get taken by wolves and the wolves justify it bc in their minds its all for the greater good,

Reminds me of almost EVERY movie plot. The ones in power justifying evil works for the "greater good" and to maintain control.

Wrong turn after wrong turn the LC is there.

I'm thinking it's going to take about 5 years and not only will they stop growing, unless they make changes they'll lose members.

I know that's a bold statement but the info is out there and people are curious and want to know.

For me, the tape of the elder in Boston and WL about the loan was it. That and hearing about Philip Lee. I even heard women were paid off to keep quiet. Of course, that one isn't as confirmed but who knows given what else happened.

Because of my personal situation in the last 5 years, I've learned A LOT about healthy emotional development/growth, boundaries, and healthy interpersonal behavior whether spiritual or not.

I realize (and the book I mentioned above emphasizes) that most of the time, spiritual abuse and crossing boundaries with each other isn't a malicious intent. Its not even a conscience thing we do. But the culture we're in determines our actions. We do what we see and what has ALWAYS been wrong has ALWAYS been right in our eyes if it's all we've ever known.

All this applies to our personal life but also the interpersonal dealings with the LC. There is a culture of control and fear/shame that's been passed down.

I don't have many strengths but picking up on unspoken pressure and seeing the big picture isn't hard for me. If anything, I focus TOO much on the big picture.

My issue now is that with the world we live in where knowledge is right at our fingertips- There are no excuses. If you didn't know better before but you're in a position of spiritual authority- you have an obligation to read (not just WL!) books on spiritual guidance and boudaries. You have an obligation to look at young peoples work in your locality and ask yourself whether or not those activities are healthy for where they are in their emotional development.

If you don't, THEN you're in the dark.

And that's whats happening now, sadly.

Along with other things I have issues with, I won't allow my daughter to participate in performance based worship. As a teen, its actually unhealthy for their beginning relationship with the Lord.

I can go on but I won't....lots of info on it online.

I'll just say- I'm thankful for this forum. Thats it.

[Indiana]

Okay, sister kumbaya, I am glad to be corrected (according to the fact(s).

From the book RK will not critique and dares not affirm.
(Deviating...)

No Hint of Control

"On page 33 of Fermentation, Brother Lee asks, “Where is the hint, even a little hint, that Witness Lee or Philip Lee or anyone of my office in the past did something to exercise their power over any church?”

At the time Brother Lee asked this question in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion numerous reports had come to him from all over the world that were more than mere hints of control. He knew the stories of LSM control beginning with complaints from Hong Kong in 1985. Then, Stuttgart in 1986; Rosemead 1986; the Southeast 1987; England 1987; Anaheim 1988, to name notable examples. He also knew that a sister who worked at LSM wanted to give him a comprehensive report on “hints of control”, but he wouldn’t listen to her 11-page report (Appendices 1, 3).

He also didn’t listen to John So, Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, or Joseph Fung about LSM domination, usurpation, and control in their localities and region. His support, overtly or covertly, was with his son and LSM’s aggressions and manipulations for accomplishing his goals. The four brothers mentioned, coincidentally, were the same four brothers who were later quarantined, essentially for reacting to the control of LSM in their localities and beyond.

The dismissal of complaints of interferences and control by LSM are common in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, Brother Lee consistently choosing to look past reports and act as if they didn’t exist. It seems Brother Lee could never call the interferences for what they were, acts of control to set up LSM “in business” around the recovery, saying on page 31 in FPR, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.”

What prominent elders and the LSM sister referred to as interferences and violations of the oneness in the Body and the bypassing of fellowship with elders, Brother Lee described as expediting the Lord’s recovery. The control was to such an extent that Brother Lee was forced to speak to the problem in an international elders’ training (ET, Book 9, pp 61-63), saying, “Our going on should be according to what we have seen from the Word. There should not be any control, and the leadership is not in one controlling person.” He added, “I do not control; and the Living Stream office would not control”. Using the words “would not control” means that they certainly did control, but he did not expound on that, saying only, “mistakes may have been made in the past”, which he also didn’t explain, or atone for.

But testimonies do explain and answer the inane question, “Where is the hint, even a little hint, that Witness Lee or Philip Lee or anyone of my office in the past did something to exercise their power over any church?”

Of course, Bill Mallon enumerated the incidences of manipulation and control by Living Stream in his letter to Witness Lee. John So did the same in his Manila report. David Wang gave his full report of LSM control in Rosemead. And, John Ingalls relates the events and concerns in Southern California during the tandem leadership era of Witness Lee and Philip Lee. There were many other people and places who could give reports on “hints of control”.

One matter that the LSM sister must have tried to relate to Brother Lee was that the LSM office, i. e., Philip Lee, cut off the supply of literature to churches that offended him in some way, and their elders were forced to come to him and apologize. Representative examples of this follow.

Eugene, OR “There was a time when the church in Eugene Oregon was cut off from receiving life studies at all because we returned some that went unpurchased by saints. LSM would send up enough life studies for all in attendance and expected all to purchase, which not all did… It was resolved by the elder recruiting skilled brothers to write letters of praise and even a new hymn to Witness Lee, and it worked.” - Kirk

Flagstaff, AZ Elders were stunned when literature stopped being sent to the church in Flagstaff due to the Chinese-speaking side having a surplus of unsold life-studies that the bookroom returned. The whole church was punished as a result, and many saints were demoralized by the act. (former elder, asked not to be identified)

If a brother was thought to be in rivalry with LSM, even in some small way, he was dealt with and must apologize. In the following example, a prominent elder in the recovery was forced to kow tow to Philip Lee.

Bill Mallon

In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up." (email, Dec 2006)

"These matters of control and many other stories like them were reported to Brother Lee, but he had no ear to hear and no heart to know. Brother Lee said, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.” - Yet, that was not all he knew. Such dupery as this prevails in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion from seemingly godly men in their case to quarantine fellow co-workers in the Lord’s recovery. (from Deviating from the Path)[/COLOR]

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Okay, sister kumbaya, I am glad to be corrected (according to the fact(s)....

Thank you, I'm going to read some of the letters. I've read John Ingalls..

Obviously there's no denying there was spiritual abuse especially at this level.

I know of several times my dad (who I know loved the Lord) would talk about people or say things that I remember to this day. It was almost "unlike him."

I really do blame the culture. Love love love until theres a disagreement and then shame, curse, and kick out.

I still have trouble putting the two behaviors together.

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Thank you, I'm going to read some of the letters. I've read John Ingalls..

I really do blame the culture. Love love love until theres a disagreement and then shame, curse, and kick out.

I still have trouble putting the two behaviors together.

YES So true!!
They want the good stock. The ones hungry to fit in. Not the ones who are beginning to see what is going on. Or have known for a long time and now have the courage to speak. It's like they think that if they give people the boot, that fear will be enough to put them back into submission. All about the power play. But that doesn't work. Because their behaviour in their position doesn't speak of God's love. It's just the spirit of manipulation, control. Jezebel.

~Blue Orchid

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by BlueOrchid

YES So true!!
They want the good stock. The ones hungry to fit in. Not the ones who are beginning to see what is going on. Or have known for a long time and now have the courage to speak. It's like they think that if they give people the boot, that fear will be enough to put them back into submission. All about the power play. But that doesn't work. Because their behaviour in their position doesn't speak of God's love. It's just the spirit of manipulation, control. Jezebel.
~Blue Orchid

The thing is, whether you agree that’s the spirit or now (I do), the percentage of YP who stay isn’t good. It bothers me a little that those YP are ignored and they try so hard for “fresh meat” with college kids. To be fair, I know of several situations where some of the saints are in contact with former YP who don’t attend but it’s on a personal level. The pressure of Christians of campus (red flag- not using church’s name) to get kids seems more important.

Whether or not you even agree they’re doing the Lord’s work, I think the pressure they’re putting on people for the “Lord’s move” in Europe isn’t right. I know of several full timers wives that I know regret choices they’ve made! It’s so sad to see them try to make the best of their choices! I just don’t think it’s right to put that pressure on young kids like that- very upsetting to me...

Have you seen that kind of pressure too? I’m hoping not and maybe I just know more than I should about their situations or what I know is off but I have heard some regrets- no doubt.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I really do blame the culture. Love love love until theres a disagreement and then shame, curse, and kick out.

I have noticed the culture is very much based on trust and agreement than it is love. When a brother can no longer be trusted or counted upon, he is through in the local church.
I would say scripture that best describes the culture is Luke 6:32.
There's an absence of grace and forgiveness.
Ones I knew from my youth who left decades ago (being children of an elder who left) experienced the shame. Even though express forgiveness realize they're not welcome.
There is not the open door to return someday to visit or meet regularly. Once someone's name has been slandered, local church public opinion is opposed to allowing so and so to return.
With grace you don't have what happened to the late John Ingalls, John So, or Bill Mallon. Grace allows love to prevail. Grace disarms negativity from coming into any assembly.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Terry

I have noticed the culture is very much based on trust and agreement than it is love. When a brother can no longer be trusted or counted upon, he is through in the local church.
I would say scripture that best describes the culture is Luke 6:32.
There's an absence of grace and forgiveness.
Ones I knew from my youth who left decades ago (being children of an elder who left) experienced the shame. Even though express forgiveness realize they're not welcome.
There is not the open door to return someday to visit or meet regularly. Once someone's name has been slandered, local church public opinion is opposed to allowing so and so to return.
With grace you don't have what happened to the late John Ingalls, John So, or Bill Mallon. Grace allows love to prevail. Grace disarms negativity from coming into any assembly.

yes, Fermentation of Present Rebellion, seems void of grace just by being published!

I just wish more people could see.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

yes, Fermentation of Present Rebellion, seems void of grace just by being published!

I just wish more people could see.

You won't find the book on minstrybooks.org. I don't know if it can even be ordered? Maybe the thought was we pull it off the shelves and pretend the book was never published? Perhaps co-workers realize it was wrong to publish, but there's too much pride to ever retract?
I have considered what the outcome could have been if the late 80's had been handled with grace in the local churches instead of allowing it to become a turmoil.

[Drake]

Kumbaya>”I wasn't saying the churches force the saints to buy the material. I'm saying LSM forces the local churches to buy it, whether is sells to the saints of not. That's just what someone told me and I honestly hope I'm wrong and they had wrong information!”

Kumbaya, I can only share my experience. LSM does not force local churches to buy anything. For those that own their meeting hall they will often carry some of the books for the convenience of the saints but mostly books are sold online, on amazon, or on subscription. Some of the larger churches have bigger libraries, and they should to serve the needs of the saints.

I can’t speak to what someone told you but I can tell you after more than four decades in churches big and small, in many places near and far, those that own their meeting hall, those that rent, and those that have no meeting hall at all, I have never once observed LSM forcing local churches to buy books.

Drake

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”I wasn't saying the churches force the saints to buy the material. I'm saying LSM forces the local churches to buy it, whether is sells to the saints of not. That's just what someone told me and I honestly hope I'm wrong and they had wrong information!”

Kumbaya, I can only share my experience. LSM does not force local churches to buy anything. For those that own their meeting hall they will often carry some of the books for the convenience of the saints but mostly books are sold online, on amazon, or on subscription. Some of the larger churches have bigger libraries, and they should to serve the needs of the saints.

I can’t speak to what someone told you but I can tell you after more than four decades in churches big and small, in many places near and far, those that own their meeting hall, those that rent, and those that have no meeting hall at all, I have never once observed LSM forcing local churches to buy books.

Drake

Ok, well I've been told there is an expectation. The thing is, there are spoken and unspoken "rules" organizations follow.

How do you think LSM would react if the churches stopped or slowed the funds for the LSM material?

And- here's the BIGGEST question of all and really, the MAIN ISSUE....

WHY IS A PUBLISHING COMPANY ENFORCING PRACTICES OF A LOCAL CHURCH??

Whether or not the churches are required to purchase or not, there is unspoken pressure. And I do believe I just read below all the ways it actually was enforced, but moving on to the real issue....

WHY WHY WHY should a publishing company determine what books a local church sells? How is this not enforcing control??

It's not a biblical practice. If you think it is- please tell me how!

How is this not exerting control (not even church but business control!) outside your own locality?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

This is an excerpt from a book that took two years to complete Jan 2005 - Jan 2007 - an LC brother, still in good standing, edited this book called Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery. Our brother, Ron Kangas, has given his tacit approval to the veracity of this book. There have been no public criticisms of it by LSM.

Bill Mallon

"In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up.

Every time I read this story I crack up!

Here's Bill Mallon from the Southeast. Humble and altruistic. Never was a more sincere minister. Struggling with all his heart to shepherd the saints, and work together with LSM; believing with all his heart that the leadership at LSM was the same.

Here's W. Lee's reprobate and profligate son Philip. By all accounts not even saved, yet placed in charge over all the other LC workers. The man was impetuous, molested sisters, regularly demeaned those around him, and a foul-mouthed drunk. Couldn't hold a job, yet W. Lee made him boss. Or should I say despot.

Bill Mallon was forced to fly all the way to Anaheim to apologize in order to keep in good standing. He did nothing wrong, but was publicly shamed into submission, Chinese style. He humbles himself before Philip Lee and acknowledges his wrongdoings. He looks up and Philip is snoring.

But dear brother Drake is fine with all this, because he has "seen the vision."

Read also the testimony of John So, the senior worker in Europe throughout the 70's and 80's, who was also accused of that vast global conspiracy with John Ingalls. When John was subjected to Philip's abuses, he decided instead to cut all ties with the Lee family. Witness Lee's response? Slander and smear his reputation before all. You can read his disgusting account in Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every time I read this story I crack up!

Here's Bill Mallon from the Southeast. Humble and altruistic. Never was a more sincere minister. Struggling with all his heart to shepherd the saints, and work together with LSM; believing with all his heart that the leadership at LSM was the same.

Here's W. Lee's reprobate and profligate son Philip. By all accounts not even saved, yet placed in charge over all the other LC workers. The man was impetuous, molested sisters, regularly demeaned those around him, and a foul-mouthed drunk. Couldn't hold a job, yet W. Lee made him boss. Or should I say despot.

Bill Mallon was forced to fly all the way to Anaheim to apologize in order to keep in good standing. He did nothing wrong, but was publicly shamed into submission, Chinese style. He humbles himself before Philip Lee and acknowledges his wrongdoings. He looks up and Philip is snoring.

But dear brother Drake is fine with all this, because he has "seen the vision."

Read also the testimony of John So, the senior worker in Europe throughout the 70's and 80's, who was also accused of that vast global conspiracy with John Ingalls. When John was subjected to Philip's abuses, he decided instead to cut all ties with the Lee family. Witness Lee's response? Slander and smear his reputation before all. You can read his disgusting account in Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.

I'll be sure to look for that on my family's bookshelf. I'm sure its there along with all the others!

Oh wow, thank you for this info- If you don't mind me asking, what locality were you in?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I'll be sure to look for that on my family's bookshelf. I'm sure its there along with all the others!

Oh wow, thank you for this info- If you don't mind me asking, what locality were you in?

Started in Cleveland, then moved to Columbus, then ...

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Started in Cleveland, then moved to Columbus, then ...

Ah! Were you around when Mansfield came in? That was a WEIRD situation, lol