Can I be candid?

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Just so you know, I have never read anything by JP Lewis or Margaret Barber, Madame Guyon, or Mary McDonough...

But if you read anything by Nee or Lee you read theology heavily indebted to them. For example, Nee's first book, "Spiritual Man", was simply JP Lewis plagiarized. Later editions of the book had to acknowledge what the first did not. Both Nee & Lee plagiarized others' work, including women, and passed it off as their own.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I know Nee had a woman mentor. Was it Margaret Barber? In any case, I have never read anything on Nee's mentor. I think I read where he would go to her house for mentoring/teaching and she would shoo him away until he 'got' whatever she was trying to get through to him. Something like that....

So why did Nee have a woman mentor but "women can't teach" in the Nee/Lee church? Insert 'scratchhead' or 'baffled' icon here. . .

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I don't think Lee had a woman mentor. In fact, I think he disliked women. He never mentioned his wife that I recall. He never praised/complimented any sister....

And the Blendeds are peas in the Lee Pod. Current Ministry Mouthpiece RK once told us, "Sometimes I think the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister". I was aghast. I mean, I was pretty 'conservative' socially but that was waaaaay over the top. The meeting sat there silently, and he went on.

We all should have gotten up and walked out. I should have. But I was intimidated by the Hive Mind and the Power of the Maximum Brother.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I have also never studied or read on the revivals. Revivals never have interested me. They're like hurricanes. They come with power and strength and then when they make landfall, they fall apart.

Revivals are a way for the Reformation (Protestantism) to "re-form" itself. Every generation or two a "new Moses" has had to rise up. Insert 'yawning' icon here. . .

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

But if you read anything by Nee or Lee you read theology heavily indebted to them. For example, Nee's first book, "Spiritual Man", was simply JP Lewis plagiarized. Later editions of the book had to acknowledge what the first did not. Both Nee & Lee plagiarized others' work, including women, and passed it off as their own.

So why did Nee have a woman mentor but "women can't teach" in the Nee/Lee church? Insert 'scratchhead' or 'baffled' icon here. . .

Who knows??? It's part of the mystery! even Benny Hinn was mentored by a woman Kathryn Kuhlman! Not that there's anything wrong with having a woman in Christ mentoring a man or men.. it's just that these men have / had some serious flaws in their relationships with women!! What's up with that??

Ya know.. In the LC I had all those books by Nee and Lee. Truth be told I could never get into them!


Anyway.. I read the life study messages and from my recollection Genesis and John's were my favorites. I don't know how I'd feel about them now if I read through them.

Of course, my tenure in the LC was short lived so I did not continue reading the messages.

I do remember when I first started getting back to the LORD and I read something in my KJ or NASB I did not understand, I would check my LR recovery version for clarification. (Reminds me of a time I engaged in a conversation with a couple of Mormon missionaries. I had my KJ bible with me to show them scriptures. I already knew wayyyy in advance that is the bible they use even though they buy theirs in the ward. They did not know I had a KJ but quickly checked to see what translation I was using. If it had been a different translation they would have argued I was using a false translation.)

Anywho...SEE how difficult it is for the LC spirit to get out of you ?!! I left the LC physically around 1978/79 and here it was 2005 and I'm referencing the footnotes in the recovery version! That spirit of manipulation that there is 'nothing better out there in poor, poor Christianity' still haunted me.

Thank God for the many great teachers He has anointed to help me get out of the LC mindset and for the internet and you tube.

Of course not every earthly 'teacher' is anointed and not everything on the internet or you tube is Truth in the matters of the Word of God. We need the Spirit of discernment.

Most of all I give ALL THANKS TO THE GREAT TEACHER HIMSELF, The Holy Spirit of Jesus and God the Father. He is the greatest TEACHER!!

the Blendeds are peas in the Lee Pod. Current Ministry Mouthpiece RK once told us, "Sometimes I think the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister". I was aghast.

I guess he forgot God's Word says each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

I mean, I was pretty 'conservative' socially but that was waaaaay over the top. The meeting sat there silently, and he went on.

Yep.. the spirit of control was at work in the blendeds....still is. And btw.. do you see the 'transfer of spirits' at work here? The spirit of control that was on Lee was transferred to the blendeds. There is nothing wrong about the transfer of spirits if the transfer is Godly. Elijah transferred the spirit of his anointing to Elisha.

2 kings 2:9
When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.” 10 He said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.”

vs 15
Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.”

Satan of course likes to copy God as an evil counterfeit.

We all should have gotten up and walked out. I should have. But I was intimidated by the Hive Mind and the Power of the Maximum Brother.

But eventually you followed the Spirit and left. He gave you the strength, courage and Light to leave. Praise be to the Lord.

Revivals are a way for the Reformation (Protestantism) to "re-form" itself. Every generation or two a "new Moses" has had to rise up. Insert 'yawning' icon here. . .

Yeah.. they like to think they are imitating the Pentecost event in Acts 1

Hey.. thanks for responding!

Shalom be with us all until we arrive !

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

So why did Nee have a woman mentor but "women can't teach" in the Nee/Lee church? Insert 'scratchhead' or 'baffled' icon here. . .

And then to think that Lee and the Blendeds would actually consider a Catholic sister -- Madame Jeanne Guyon -- was the MOTA for the entire 17th Century "age."

They have gone on record claiming that "in the seventeenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Madame Guyon."

Now, please note that I am in no way demeaning Guyon's reputation, maturity, or status in the body of Christ, but for Lee and LSM to elevate her operation in the body as the Apostle Paul is shear lunacy.

Hard to believe folks, but they do!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

for Lee and LSM to elevate her [Madame Guyon] operation in the body

Meanwhile a 21st-century sister can't give a 20-minute talk on the Sunday morning meeting in the Church in Duluth. Because she's a woman, is why. Eve was deceived before Adam. Paul said so.

Yet Mme Guyon was de facto 17th-century MOTA, and 20th-century Nee was trained by several uppity women who thought they had some kind of spirituality. Forsooth. . .

What is MOTA? Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon? That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What is MOTA?

Minister of the Age, title given to Witness Lee.

Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon?

Look here: LSM article

That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

Margaret Barber, missionary from England. Little is known about her. James Reetzke of Chicago has a booklet about her, but none of his writings are objective or unbiased.

What the allegations against Barber as missionary actually were has been largely unknown, but the missionary board was always blamed. It was said that Nee lasted the longest under her, and he was in his early 20's. Most of the early hagiography about Barber and Nee comes from Lee, and is suspect.

Apparently what Barber "recovered" was a pattern of "perfecting" brothers by harsh rebukes and public humiliations.

WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

WL had a history of failed businesses which cost the church dearly.

His sons were prodigals who hurt many. Witness covered up their sins.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Margaret Barber, missionary from England. Little is known about her. James Reetzke of Chicago has a booklet about her, but none of his writings are objective or unbiased.

What the allegations against Barber as missionary actually were has been largely unknown, but the missionary board was always blamed. It was said that Nee lasted the longest under her, and he was in his early 20's. Most of the early hagiography about Barber and Nee comes from Lee, and is suspect.

What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?

The positive history of influential women in the recovery give the rest of them hope.

The constant ministry of condemnation causes women inside the program to believe that they are the problem and not the system they are in.

Hence ... distorted congruity! LC style.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?

I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber (but I think this info came from the LSM)

http://mebarber.ccws.org/letters/index.html ( I think this also came from LSM)

I could not find anything else.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber (but I think this info came from the LSM)

http://mebarber.ccws.org/letters/index.html ( I think this also came from LSM)

I could not find anything else.

Between Darby and Nee, there was the need of another MOTA.

None of Darby's successors would do, so they looked elsewhere.

Since Barber had forsaken the denominations (well maybe not, but the Anglicans apparently dumped her), she became instantly qualified, having "perfected" Nee.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What is MOTA? Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon? That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

Unregistered I just have to tell you I really enjoyed your brief paragraph. It was concise and yet loaded.

Hey, it's quite possible that Nee picked up his sexual loosey-goosey side from Barber. Then it was exposed by his confession to over 2500 in Shanghai, where Lee's sons had to pickup on it, and so carried on that side of Nee's legacy.

And Lee, who was completely use to covering up for Nees' sins (rape and brothels), found it business as usual to cover up for his son's sins.

Thanks, whoever you are, for your contribution. Hope to hear more from you ... and hope you join us.

Oh, and welcome.