ABrotherInChrist's Blog

[ABrotherInChrist]

I just posted on the other forum about this, but it's still running through my head. Bear with me.

Originally Posted by Matthew 23:8-12 (NIV)

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

I've been getting more and more burdened by people referring to Lee, Titus Chu and others as their "spiritual father". Jesus in this passage (read the chapter in its entirety) is lambasting the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and evil ways. As part of this he states:

1. We are not to be called "Rabbi" (or master)
2. We are not to call anyone on earth "father"
3. We are not to be called "teacher"

We need to take this to heart. If we disregard this plain teaching, we end up with us revering our "spiritual father" here on earth. We end up holding teachers in too high of regard (for instance, Witness Lee). By doing this, we are completely off track with where God wants us to be. God wants us to be following God, not other humans.

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 3:5-7 (NIV)

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

Paul has made it clear to us in this passage... The person that led you to Christ is immaterial. The person who watered the seed in you... immaterial. The person who shepherds you... immaterial. God made it grow The servant He choses to use are nothing, only God is important in this equation.

I know that this is a bit of a thought shift to some, but we need to stop venerating other human servants of God. Give God all the glory, only He is worthy of it.


Anyways, that's what's been bugging me lately.

[countmeworthy]

I didn't know where to put something I heard yesterday with my own 2 ears. ..very troublesome. I didn't want to start a thread but this is the perfect spot for it. Thanks ABIC.

Someone told me with great excitement yesterday that an LSMr sister who is very, very ill (not anyone well known), told some saints, she saw NEE & LEE TOGETHER holding her hand, telling her not to worry, she would soon be with THEM.
You read right.

Imagine an LSMr saying Pope John Paul II appeared to someone on their deathbed comforting them telling them, they'd soon be with him! Imagine someone telling an LSMr Pope John Paul II appeared to them with that message.

No need for a response....just wanted to find a place to put this in.

[ABrotherInChrist]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Someone told me with great excitement yesterday that an LSMr sister who is very, very ill (not anyone well known), told some saints, she saw NEE & LEE TOGETHER holding her hand, telling her not to worry, she would soon be with THEM.
You read right.

Oh my goodness... I only can think of one way to respond to that.

Originally Posted by Matthew 17:1-8 (NIV)

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

Now, substitute Nee for Moses and Lee for Elijah.

When we give too much honor and glory to man, this is the result... We act rashly like Peter, and we need to be schooled by God (yet again).

Oh, Lord, when I look up, let me see nobody but you.

I have no problems with acknowledging that God had blessed certain brothers with a gift to teach, but we need to be oh so careful that we don't turn that into venerating them. The Catholics did it with their "saints". I'm sorry to say it, but the LC has done so with Nee, and in a much greater way, Lee. They even went so far to make a cemetery for Lee complete with a gaudy mausoleum (from what I've heard, I haven't seen it).

Until the hearts and minds of the believers within the LC are turned from Lee to Christ alone, I fear things will just continue to accelerate downhill.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherInChrist

Anyways, that's what's been bugging me lately.

ABiC, if you really want to get "bugged," you should read that chapter by Kangas/Robichaux where they questioned "can we really honor WL too much?" The book was a refutation of Ingalls et al "16 concerns" as elder in Anaheim, Response to Recent Allegations.

[IDon'tKnow]

I haven't read Response to Recent Allegations. I would be interested to know just exactly what was contained within it.

[ABrotherInChrist]

I'd be willing to lay a small wager that it contains lies, twisting of scriptures and self-aggrandization. But I haven't read it either. That just seems to be the LSM way to respond to real questions.

[OBW]

Is this little book of fiction available online? I'm sure I've seen it before, but my normal places to look do not seem to have it.

[ABrotherInChrist]

Doesn't seem to be on ministrybooks.org, but that really shouldn't surprise anyone. I doubt they want the public to stumble across such works of fiction easily (likewise with the Fermentation of this Present Rebellion). It may be available somewhere else, I dunno. Or you may have to ask friends/family in the LC to order a copy from LSM for you to borrow. Just remember not to burn it, or they may never supply you with books again

[ABrotherInChrist]

I am aware (from some here, and other sources) that in the 1970s, the Local Churches pushed strongly the concept of burning stuff that you find dear. Well, I was just thinking (dangerous, I know)...

I think we should revive the concept of burnings. However, instead of being forced, they should be a personal choice. Instead of burning your prize possessions because some old Chinese guy told you to, I would like to see us all willing to burn our stuff, but the stuff that keeps us away from God. If it gets between me and God, I should be willing to get rid of it. Once I've decided that an item should go, we collect our items and have a big rootin-tootin bonfire. Don't forget to get a permit from the fire department first.

My first contributions to said pile:

• every book or pamphlet or paper put out by LSM and their cronies that has made its way into my house.
• any Jehovah's Witness garbage that managed to make it past the pair of expert shredding dogs.

That in and of itself should make a bonfire that will burn for a long time.

I'm sure after that, the Lord would convict me of something else that should be removed from the house too, but I think that would make a wonderful start.

Smores anyone?

[countmeworthy]

I got rid of my Lee & Nee books around 2004. They'd collected enough dust. Since then, I've acquired a few NEE books from the bookstores around here.
I use them as cross reference tools on occassion.

I've also gotten rid of a lot of junk that made its' way into my house while I was not walking right with the LORD. Once I re-dedicated my life to HIM for GOOD, I began to spiritually clean my house and got rid of some personal items as the Holy Spirit led me.

I don't know if anyone here has ever seen or been in the presence of demons. I have not seen any but boy, they used to like to sneak into my house. It's a presence of pure EVIL you sense. You don't know what it is or why. I've sensed them walking towards me and one time, a demon was about to try to choke me in my sleep when I began to call on the Name of the LORD with my heart and my mind as I could not speak.

As I began to say "Lord JESUS" with my heart, the grip began to loosen. When it did, I began to whisper His Name. The thing began to back away and as it did, I began to raise my voice. I then began to 'scream' the Name of the LORD. It was the freakiest, darkest demon that had ever approached me. No demon had ever gotten that close to me. I don't know where this one came from but it was about to grip my throat. Maybe it had because I couldn't speak. I could breath just not speak.

The only other demon that did scare me was one that 'screamed' when I began to pray for Saddam Hussein's salvation before he was executed. I had been on a roll praying for people's salvations and for our country..for our leaders by name and the leaders of the countries around the world. About 1/2 hour into my prayers, I began to pray for Saddam H and when I did, I didn't hear the scream but a FEAR suddenly overtook me. I then began to apply the BLOOD on me and on my house and about 5-10 minutes, the spirit of fear left.

I've personally sensed demons entering my room, ususally my bedroom at night about 5-6 times in my life. They come in through an open doorway or through a window. I've always just applied the Blood of Jesus right away and they leave.

They haven't messed with me in a long time but my house is very sanctified. I think they're too scared now to get close to it or to MEEEEE! They better be!!!

So, yeah...it's good to do spiritual housecleaning as the Holy Spirit leads. He'll show you what to get rid of. And btw, I hope He doesn't lead me to get rid of my flat screen TV.

P.S. There are books out there on Spiritual Housecleaning which can be used as guides for anyone interested.

[ABrotherInChrist]

Oh, and a short list of things that will NOT be on the bonfire:

• family photos
• valuable heirlooms (if God wants me to get rid of them, I will sell them or give to someone else in the family)
• my computers (I need to make a living)
• any toys we may buy for our children (how lame it is to expect children to grow up without fun)

If I were in the LC in the 70's I'm sure I would have been kicked out... But alas, I was only a little wee child at that time...

[Hope]

Originally Posted by ABrotherInChrist

Oh, and a short list of things that will NOT be on the bonfire:

• family photos
• valuable heirlooms (if God wants me to get rid of them, I will sell them or give to someone else in the family)
• my computers (I need to make a living)
• any toys we may buy for our children (how lame it is to expect children to grow up without fun)

If I were in the LC in the 70's I'm sure I would have been kicked out... But alas, I was only a little wee child at that time...

Hello brother,

I was there all through the 60s and 70s. I attended a few "burnings." I never burned anything. We had seen a good number of dear ones saved out of the counter culture and drug scene. They were encouraged to deal with anything that was polluted from that source as in Acts 19:18-20, "Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of all; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing."

I remember a few of the saints, mainly sisters, get a little carried away and declare they wanted to be just for the Lord and they burned some family items. In Dallas, we had a burning and before the event, George Whitington used Acts 19 to clearly illustrate this was not for ordinary items for which you might have a special fondness. I remember he took one young brother aside and as a gentle father helped him see that his throwing his favorite winter coat on the fire was not necessary and might distract from the serious dealing some were having with evil things from their past.

Somehow in the reporting about burnings all I hear on the forums is about mothers burning pictures of their children etc. I only know of two who did so and they both later regreted and said they were carried away. (But I would think there probably were others.) There was a lot of internal pressure felt by some to be at the forefront of being all out for the Lord. I sometimes heard the defense for foolish behavior, "You can never be too much for the Lord."

I am not aware of any burnings after around 1973-4. Dear brother, you would not have been kicked out regarding burnings. I never burned anything and no one ever checked up on me. It was left strictly up to each individual. I feel regret for people who burned items which they wish they still had but I have little sympathy for there were no lists handed out and never that I recall any words of fellowship to encourage saints to deal with precious keepsakes. But some, again mainly women, gave teary testimonies about their battle with the Lord over giving up family photos etc. When my wife asked me about this and if she should consider these item, I pointed out that Acts 19 had nothing to say about this and none, that's right none, of the ministrying or leading brothers ever mentioned anything like this. In fact, I was in fellowship with elders and co-workers when the extreme and foolish actions at burnings were advised against and that help should be giving that the younger saints not be pushed into foolish behavior. The whole thing of burnings lasted a very short time.

For your consideration and context.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Hope

[ABrotherInChrist]

Thank goodness that at least some places seemed to have their heads screwed on straight I'm not sure that all locations had the restraining oversight that you mentioned though.

For certain, ridding your life of Satanic and occult and drug stuff is a good step to make. I think it's still useful to rid your life of things that are keeping you from Christ. As I mentioned earlier, the LSM writings are first on my list to purge. However, my wife is still somewhat enamored by their propaganda, so I need to be patient.

For certain, people took it too far in the past. If in some locations there wasn't a calmer oversight of the elders saying "wait, this is not what was meant", I'm sure that people did get carried away and burned stuff they later regretted.

I'm sure I would have been kicked out for being outspoken, even then. If I spoke up in the local meetings where I am and told them what I truly believed from Scripture, I'd be strong-armed to the door for sure. But I will keep that to the relatively anonymous venue of online forums, and not rock the boat until the Lord tells me it is the correct time to do so. The net result of rocking the boat needs to be both myself and my wife exiting, not just me, and she's not ready for that step. Perhaps the Lord will ready her for it sometime, but until then, I'll stay quiet in the meetings. God help me if the elders take me aside and ask why I never take part vocally...

[Hope]

Dear Brother,

It appears you are in a difficult position but are using wisdom in how you conduct yourself. I have not been around the LSM folks for 20 years and thus I really cannot speak to the current atmosphere. Starting in the early 80s, the atmosphere of not speaking unless speaking the acceptable line began to develop. I was turned in to headquarters more than once for not focusing on the "present speaking" or "present burden." I pretty much blew it off until I realized we were losing our standing as a church. That is, we were no longer answering directly to the head, Christ and the individual members were losing their standing as members of the Body of Christ, each connected directly to the Head, Christ (not an elder or co-worker or ministry.) It took me three years of soul searching, intense Bible study and much much prayer to really began to be clear that I had other options. Even then, some gave me little choice but to exit. My whole family was at peace to leave though I always considered that it was not I but the LSM that had left.

Frankly, if a believer in Christ can be strong armed out the door for merely speaking their convictions from scriptures then that assembly is very likely a sect even though they may have many positive attributes.

In 2 Kings chapter nine is the story of Jehu and the Lord's judgment on Ahab and Jezebel. I have quoted a few verses of the account below. While this couple led Israel into Baal worship and this was severly judged, the first terrible crime charged to their account was their killing of the the Lord's prophets and servants. If you, dear brother, fear you may be disciplined for merely speaking in a way some may not approved or for serving without the approval of certain officials, then those folks are in danger of a "Jehu judjment."

2 Kings 9:5-8
5 When he came, behold, the captains of the army were sitting, and he said, "I have a word for you, O captain." And Jehu said, "For which one of us?" And he said, "For you, O captain." 6 And he arose and went into the house, and he poured the oil on his head and said to him, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'I have anointed you king over the people of the LORD, even over Israel. 7'And you shall strike the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel. 8'For the whole house of Ahab shall perish, and I will cut off from Ahab every male person both bond and free in Israel.
NASB

May the Lord grant repentance to any guilty parties. May the Lord give you grace and wisdom. I will certainly pray for you, your wife and for those with whom you gather.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Hope

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

When my wife asked me about this and if she should consider these item, I pointed out that Acts 19 had nothing to say about this and none, that's right none, of the ministrying or leading brothers ever mentioned anything like this. In fact, I was in fellowship with elders and co-workers when the extreme and foolish actions at burnings were advised against and that help should be giving that the younger saints not be pushed into foolish behavior.

The fact that some elders had to discuss "foolish actions at burnings" indicates that some of this did happen. I entered the church at the end of the "burnings," and witnessed only one in Cleveland, basically as an onlooker. The discussion (err ... fellowship) which I heard at that time had nothing to do with Acts 19 occult stuff. Rather the burnings were for "idols," which loosely was interpreted as "anything which our heart loved too much" as a potential replacement of Christ.

This was, of course, for some more fervent, albeit naive, saints, the door opening for burning wedding albums, kids photos, and the like. Part of this extreme behavior was due to the extremes of the culture we lived in then. Some LC leaders did fuel this type of religious zeal, without a balancing, healthy teaching from the scripture. "Short term gain, long term loss" -- that always seemed to be the maxim we lived by in those days.

One former poster testified that she too was caught up in that fervor, unfortunately burning her most cherished things, and then later rejoiced in the Lord to find one child's picture, apparently overlooked, which became her moniker. I believe the Lord is quite tenderhearted and gracious towards his children who, out of love, do "foolish" things such as this. I'm not so sure He feels the same way about those promoters.

I believe this matter is an indictment, for the most part, on childish elders looking to headquarters for direction, and always lusting to be a part of the "latest thing." So many elders were not appointed (better ... recognized) for their maturity in shepherding, rather for their zeal and cooperation with external leaders. The Biblical entreaty to "aspire to oversight" has nothing to do with the LC exhortation to be "one with the ministry." This, I believe, is a "root of evil' which has hurt so many of the Lord's children.

Thank the Lord that there were a sprinkling of shepherds in those days, ones like Hope and GW, who placed the scriptures above the program. Who knows what would have happened in the LC's without these gifted ones. It was most of these ones that LSM has decided best to quarantine over the years.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I entered the church at the end of the "burnings," and witnessed only one in Cleveland, basically as an onlooker. The discussion (err ... fellowship) which I heard at that time had nothing to do with Acts 19 occult stuff. Rather the burnings were for "idols," which loosely was interpreted as "anything which our heart loved too much" as a potential replacement of Christ. .

Ohio,

Before the time of burnings, there was ministry on idols and not having any idols in your home lest it give demons any ground. I personally went through my set of World Books and removed pictures of Buddha etc. Others found they had bought or received mementos such as little idol figurines and several of the former Catholics among us found Catholic trinkets in their closets etc. I cannot remember any ministry putting personal items we adored maybe too much on the same level as physical idols but there was ministry on "Love not the World" as mentioned in 1 John. I do remember a report coming from LA about how consecrated the sister VB was and that she had burned family photo albums. At that time, most of the saints I knew in Dallas did not care for show boat testifying or drawing attention to the great deeds of a so-called extra spiritual person. VB also was big into Madame Guiyon etc. George Whitington and I had personal talks about avoiding the supra spiritual stuff which sometimes created a little bit of a contagion.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Hope

[AndPeter]

Originally Posted by Hope

Hello brother,
...
Somehow in the reporting about burnings all I hear on the forums is about mothers burning pictures of their children etc. I only know of two who did so and they both later regreted and said they were carried away. (But I would think there probably were others.) There was a lot of internal pressure felt by some to be at the forefront of being all out for the Lord. I sometimes heard the defense for foolish behavior, "You can never be too much for the Lord."
...
Hope

I had just started meeting with the church in Toronto when the burnings were happening. The elders in Toronto did not, to my recollection, minister anything to temper the situation. As a result, in Toronto at least, sorry to say, there were 'precious' things being burned such as baby pictures, wedding pictures, TVs. There was the definite concept of this and I know that later some regretted what they had burned.

I burned a piece of carpentry I had made a couple of years earlier. It was large and could not be a hidden thing so there was the element of show-boating attached to doing it. I overheard an elder explain to another one present at the burning that this must be to do with my wanting to deal with my pride.

Some saints also wrote notes about what they wanted the Lord to deal with and burned them. I did but have no recollection as to what my note said.

This was followed a year or two later with another wind - that of re-baptism as a way of re-consecrating ourselves to the Lord.

Steve

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by AndPeter

The elders in Toronto did not, to my recollection, minister anything to temper the situation. As a result, in Toronto at least, sorry to say, there were 'precious' things being burned ... This was followed a year or two later with another wind - that of re-baptism as a way of re-consecrating ourselves to the Lord.

As much as I love those brothers GS and PO, you can see how their ability to shepherd the saints was compromised from the very beginning due to their unhealthy relationship with LSM, which, btw, became more than apparent during Toronto's recent struggles to extricate themselves from external controls.

[Hope]

In the olden days of the 60s and early 70s, the extreme stuff rarely came directly if at all from WL, JB, JI etc. but from ultra zealous ones from another church and in particular from So. Ca. and especially Eldon hall or from someone from another visiting place. In Dallas, we came to be on the ready after a training or conference for the testimony from a dear local one about the fellowship he or she had had with such and such ultra spiritual person from the much more fantastic church than Dallas.

There was also a kind of competition among the various churches as to who could be the most for the Lord and the most up-to-date with the present move of the Lord.

I know all the details about where the burnings originated and where the re-baptisms came from. They did not have their source in WL. Maybe they had some element of the spontaneous move of the Spirit. In the beginning, WL had a practice not to balance the brothers and sisters. He testified that when the re-baptisms began in Eldon Hall his first impression was to stop it, but he decided to let the Lord do what He would do. It became a movement or contagion that the American saints took to Taiwan in 1967. I was not re-baptized. But I know several in Texas who had great consternation about the whole movement and felt they were under a kind of group pressure and that perhaps in an unconscious and unofficial way some were keeping score. Some of the testimonies of how a brother or sister benefited from the experience were way over the top and left the impression that you were lacking if you did not agree to re-baptism.

I could write a 100 pages on crazy wacky stuff that was happening and its source was not WL but from various dear wacky believers trying to be God's best in God's move on earth today. The brothers in the lead in Texas by the mid 70s had learned to filter reports of great revival, blessing, new light etc. I was not involved in the infamous meeting involving a sister in Houston. When I heard a little about it, my first thought was that BP was perhaps trying to exercise some restraint on the latest movement coming from Anaheim, the so-called sisters' coordination.

In Dallas, we had one sister who desired that we bring whatever it was to Dallas. We looked into it and decided to just let it go by us. Thus, it was no big deal.

We heard all about the Berkeley way to preach the gospel. Some were strongly promoting that we in Dallas had to go there and bring it back to Texas. I went there to learn for myself. I was happy to let them do what they felt the Lord was leading, but we had no need to try and copy Berkeley.

Unfortunately, this desire to copy others led to many problems and comparing one against another. Many of the young leading brothers could not withstand the pressure to measure up to Eldon or Anaheim or Seattle or where ever. They pushed their church and saints into various "the latest and greatest" whatever and this was a real damage.

I know that this kind of often unrestrained foolishness caused WL and JI and others to begin to exercise some controlling influence. When some place or persons did something stupid, it seemed that quite often the blame went to the leaders and particularly to WL

BP desired that the saints not put out any publications which would be of low quality and reflect poorly on the church where they were and the local churches in general. There were instances where sloppy and off beat tracts etc were printed and distributed and then used against the church and or WL etc.

The above was the beginning of the control and ultimately the one speaking, one publication nonsense.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Hope

[AndPeter]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As much as I love those brothers GS and PO, you can see how their ability to shepherd the saints was compromised from the very beginning due to their unhealthy relationship with LSM, which, btw, became more than apparent during Toronto's recent struggles to extricate themselves from external controls.

Ohio,
For the sake of a clear record, I was mainly referring to a third elder DB at that time, the lead elder (who resigned a year or so later). Both PO and GS over their many years in Toronto laboured tirelessly and helped many brothers and sisters grow in the Lord.

Once DB was not in the picture the wacky stuff that Hope mentioned going on in the US did not make it across the border too much. For example, we were almost untouched by the Berkeley/Chicago goings on of 1977 (in terms of brothers and sisters being stumbled).

You are right about their present status and role during the recent turmoil. Sad to say, both GS and PO appear to now be fully persuaded by all the LSM malarkey and reside in S. Cal.

Steve

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

In the olden days of the 60s and early 70s, the extreme stuff rarely came directly if at all from WL, JB, JI etc. but from ultra zealous ones from another church and in particular from So. Ca. ... There was also a kind of competition among the various churches as to who could be the most for the Lord and the most up-to-date with the present move of the Lord...

This post really confirms my basic understanding that "early WL" differed greatly in practice from "later WL." The contrasts here seem far too great to reconcile, and have even produced a few conflicts on the forums. It's hard to believe that WL could initially be reluctant to interfer, and then later head a ministry that thrived on interference.

I do think we need to place some of the early "craziness" in the context of the day. The 60's and 70's were times of social upheaval in America, and inevitably these issues impacted the church. Some of these radicals got saved! PTL! Also, the standards of "acceptable behavior," both within and without the church, were all in question. Our Savior did use this upheaval period to call many. This is why I am tolerant of all kinds of "craziness," except, of course, that which is promoted by ministry leadership for base gain.

Hope, your post introduces another concept or two, not often discussed -- the matter of "man pleasing" inciting natural "rivalries" between leaders. I have long felt this matter was a systemic disease among us. Religious zeal is a two-edged sword, helping some to progress in the faith, yet cheating others dramatically. The matters of "group pressure," along with the "desire to copy others" and the "pressure to measure up" may not have been sourced in WL in America, but no doubt he later learned to fuel these fleshly tendencies. It seems the "kind of competition" which was growing in order to prove who was "most for the Lord" got distorted into who could be the most absolute for the ministry. It doesn't matter whether WL started this or not, but he is responsible for the levels which these reached under his watch.

.................................................. ..............................................

AndPeter, thanks for the word of correction. I long had heard of only two elders in Toronto.

.

[IDon'tKnow]

I'm fairly certain that this is not neccessarily a fair assessment. If you look at the robert morris thesis on the church in taipei (http://rapidshare.com/files/224746897/1968Thesis-FullVersion.pdf.html) it speaks of coworkers getting thier support from the church cut in half by Witness Lee for marrying against his wishes and Coworker's getting fired, kicked out of their house, for not singing Lee's new hymns (just one thing sited main thing not parroting him). (From reading a post from durian on the bereans apparently the co-worker's other than the one cited in the morris thesis (who fortunately owned his own house) found themselves booted out of church housing overnight). So their is evidence to suggest that the different face of Witness Lee shown later on in the west was already shown in the east.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by IDon'tKnow

I'm fairly certain that this is not neccessarily a fair assessment.

IDK, I should have added the words "in America," to my first sentence.

As I said, we have had a "few conflicts on the forums" due to this very point.

With the above correction, do you still feel that this is not a "fair assessment?" What about Hope's post?

[IDon'tKnow]

Originally Posted by Ohio

IDK, I should have added the words "in America," to my first sentence.

As I said, we have had a "few conflicts on the forums" due to this very point.

With the above correction, do you still feel that this is not a "fair assessment?" What about Hope's post?

Sorry if I was being adverserial. I mainly wanted to give additional background. As to the issue of it's development in America I see no reason to doubt Hope. I definitely don't believe that he is lieing, and given that he was actually there he probably is in a better position to judge the situation than I am. That said I do remember on the other forum their being a testimony from one of the leading brothers in berkeley, suggesting that the work in berkeley was somehow sabotaged by Lee out of jeolousy, of course when I was reading his testimony I wasn't quite certain if he had an axe to grind or not. Which is one of the reason why I tend to trust Hope's speaking actually I don't sense that he's out to grind any axes as it were.

[ABrotherInChrist]

Every time I hear of the many changes throughout the history of Lee's followers, I think of this:

Originally Posted by Ephesians 4:14 (NIV)

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

The instability and rapid changes in Lee's teachings make it all the more suspect to me. I've seen the evidence on the forums of young (in the faith) Christians being "blown here and there by every wind of teaching" in the "Lord's Recovery". It is truly sad that the believers didn't grow and mature enough to get a more solid grasp on the truth.

Also brought to mind:

Originally Posted by Hebrews 13:9 (NIV)

Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.

I can't help but think that many have missed these warnings (and others) in scripture, and followed a charismatic teacher instead. Sigh.

Originally Posted by ABrotherInChrist

I just posted on the other forum about this, but it's still running through my head. Bear with me.



I've been getting more and more burdened by people referring to Lee, Titus Chu and others as their "spiritual father". Jesus in this passage (read the chapter in its entirety) is lambasting the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and evil ways. As part of this he states:

1. We are not to be called "Rabbi" (or master)
2. We are not to call anyone on earth "father"
3. We are not to be called "teacher"

We need to take this to heart. If we disregard this plain teaching, we end up with us revering our "spiritual father" here on earth.... we need to stop venerating other human servants of God. Give God all the glory, only He is worthy of it.


Anyways, that's what's been bugging me lately.

So why did Paul say God gave some as teachers, and no one says a word? Why did Paul refer to himself as a "begetting father" to the saints and everyone looks the other way?

Why does Paul get a free pass here?

Paul was a christian, much used by God. But he was too "organizational" for my liking.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Paul was a christian, much used by God. But he was too "organizational" for my liking.

This was me, by the way, writing this. I wanted to do a drive-by shooting just for fun. I'm sure someone reading it said "That looks like aron's doing". Well, it was.

I've made this point before. But until I get what I consider to be a decent response, I'll keep making it. Paul was too organizational. No problem; none of us are perfect, but I make the point because the bureaucratic wanna-be's turn Paul's epistles into "Roberts Rules of Order". Hope's thing about RG's "How to follow the (A)postle" was case in point for me.

Now, dunderheads of all stripes are going to misuse the Bible. Paul gets the organizational johnny-come-latelys who want to put "order in the church". They turn it into a morgue. Notice they don't have much to go on with Jesus? Maybe where He had them sit down in groups of hundreds when He broke the loaves and the fish. Pretty much that's it. The rest of His teachings are stuff like "The wind blows where it wills...where it comes from and where it goes no one can tell." Or "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you". Or, "Neither [go to] Jerusalem (Anaheim) or on the holy mountain (Cleveland) but in Spirit and in truthfulness". Etc, etc.

Of course, Jesus' words get seized by the mystics. They want to hate their parents, to drink poison, to handle snakes and cut their own hands off. That also is probalby unbalanced application.

But Paul gets the bureaucrats. All the "teachers" and "fathers" line up behind Paul. They wave his scriptures in the air and they're ready to go.

[ABrotherInChrist]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So why did Paul say God gave some as teachers, and no one says a word? Why did Paul refer to himself as a "begetting father" to the saints and everyone looks the other way?

There is a difference between being a gifted teacher (which we so desperately need) and being put in the position of "Teacher". Witness Lee was put into both that position and that of "Father" i.e. spiritural father, by many in the LC. This is what Jesus was warning against.

Let's see if I can illustrate here (I'm awfully tired today so this may not work well)...

Say God gives a person.... "Joe" the gift of teaching (as outlined in Ephesians). If he works the gift God gave him for the building of the Church (as is intended), there are likely to be some who start to regard him as a great teacher. He may well BE a great teacher. However, at some point, the regard as a great teacher takes precedence over the fact that his teaching is a gift from God. People start to follow Joe, and after time, Joe gets a swollen head and thinks "I AM a great teacher". At this point, we see the danger of not following Jesus' words. Joe's followers are no longer following Christ, who is the true teacher. They are now following Joe, whose source of teachings had always been Christ. Joe at this time is also likely to toss off any sort of accountability to his brothers, as he thinks he is so much better than them, and they should be listening to him, he has no reason to listen to them...

Sound familiar?

The problem in this story is not that Joe was a gifted teacher. It was not that people recognized the gift in Joe and were willing to be taught by him. The problem was when they put him on a pedestal, and he started to accept the credit for God's work.

The problem (similarly) with recognizing others as your spiritual father is that that puts credit on the vessel God chose to do work in you, rather than on God himself. Yes, we are blessed by having those who are in fact our spiritual fathers to the extent that God used them to bring us to Him. However, once we start to give those spiritual fathers more credit than is due to them, we fall into the danger of following their every move, whether it is of God or not. The accountability is once again lost on the part of the "spiritual father", and he is able to manipulate you into doing anything.

This is why Jesus taught us (in the context of speaking of the Pharisees)
NOT to call another Rabbi (or master)... we are all brothers, all equal...
NOT to call another father... our only spiritual Father is God the Father...
NOT to call another teacher... our only teacher is to be Christ.

Later, Paul mentions that we are not to be "of Paul" or "of Peter" or "of Apollos" or "of Christ". We are to accept teaching from wherever it comes, as long as we check that it is truly from God. We should not be followers of any man.

[ABrotherInChrist]

I'm sure many of you have seen the bru-ha-ha over in the other forum. I know many of the participants are also here.

I just want to say... Please do not take my musings as being 100% accurate, or necessarily 100% how I believe.

I was investigating my conviction that Witness Lee matched the qualifications of a false teacher as outlined by Jesus in Matthew 7. In the process, I managed to offend some here. I apologize for that.

I realize that it is not easy to consider that a man (and system) that you followed for many years may in fact prove to be false by their fruit. However, does this mean that we shouldn't judge them based on their fruit? Far from it. Jesus *told* us to do so.

Some are convinced that Lee was the best thing since sliced bread, and had nearly no error. I'm not one of them.

There are those who are convinced he was a false teacher right from the beginning. I'm increasingly starting to believe this, especially seeing that the core of his heresies (modalism, 4-in-1 God, mingling of God and man) were from his early days.

There are some who believe he was a good teacher gone wrong. I can see how this might be a valid option. However, then I read Jesus words... He says to beware of false teachers and that we will know them from their fruits. What he doesn't say is whether or not they were always bad, or worked into being bad somehow.

I have not much to go on but the fruit of Lee's teachings. It is predominantly rotten fruit. Hence, he was a false teacher. Did he *start* bad or not? I really don't know, and I'm still pondering over that. There's not much question though that he ended as a false teacher.

One brother mentioned that he didn't think Lee was a false teacher at the beginning as people had such wonderful fellowship with him and learned from him. This is where I offended some people by showing that just because you have wonderful fellowship at first doesn't negate that the teachings are false. I apologize for my choice of examples, as it came across more harsh than I had intended. Suffice it to say... pick a known false teacher... early on, his followers (almost without fail) had wonderful fellowship with him. Whether that false teacher was a "death-cult" leader or the leader of the Mormons, or of the JWs, it really makes no difference to what I was trying to show.

So how did good solid Christians get sucked in by a false teacher? Well, if the teacher is a "wolf in sheep's clothing", it should follow that the believers saw him as a sheep, at least at first. On closer examination as time went by, they may have started to notice some oddities. Eventually, they may have witnessed this "sheep" howling at a full moon, or devouring another sheep. One would hope that at this point the "wolfiness" would have become evident.

Lee's error started early on. I'm sure at the time, not many people really noticed that he wasn't teaching orthodox teachings. This likely was because they were too focused on the outwardly positive things that were happening. I can't for a minute deny that there were positive things going on at the time. However, I think that many failed to discern the good teachings from the bad as much as they should have in the process.

The recognition and rejection of false teachers is a common theme in the New Testament. Obviously, it has been a problem in the church right from the beginning. Jesus spoke about it. Paul spoke about it. Peter spoke about it. John spoke about it. It's impossible to overlook all of these without skipping entire books of the Bible in some cases.

I'm thinking that if I find the time, I might go off and write an article/paper on false teachers and what we are to do about them, etc based on the scriptures.

[IDon'tKnow]

So how did good solid Christians get sucked in by a false teacher? Well, if the teacher is a "wolf in sheep's clothing", it should follow that the believers saw him as a sheep, at least at first. On closer examination as time went by, they may have started to notice some oddities. Eventually, they may have witnessed this "sheep" howling at a full moon, or devouring another sheep. One would hope that at this point the "wolfiness" would have become evident.

Can I just say that I think this is the reason why distinguishing life/death instead of right/wrong is emphasized. Everybody has at least rudimentary understanding of right/wrong but nobody really understands life other than (supposedly) Lee and the ministry. As a consequence when Lee and the ministry did wrong, the saints ended up judging based upon the fact that Lee and his Ministry is full of Life. and Yet based on what I have seen this ends up as a dead system with only the appearance of life.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ABrotherInChrist

So how did good solid Christians get sucked in by a false teacher? Well, if the teacher is a "wolf in sheep's clothing", it should follow that the believers saw him as a sheep, at least at first. On closer examination as time went by, they may have started to notice some oddities. Eventually, they may have witnessed this "sheep" howling at a full moon, or devouring another sheep. One would hope that at this point the "wolfiness" would have become evident.

Great question ABIC.

Here is some food for thought:

There is an innate desire built into us to seek brotherly love companionship. We were BORN of GOD. He is our Spiritual and Heavenly Father who sent His Son, Jesus to redeem & rescue & deliver us from the curse of sin. So as born again believers & now the many Sons of God, we long to be part of God's Family. On the surface, the LC ministry of WL looked like the family we all longed for. The home gatherings, the 'love feasts' of the 70s, the fellowship, our prayer time etc...seemed like the 'perfect' haven as we grew & matured in Christ.

Many people praised the leader for his wisdom & insight believing only he was getting the revelation from God.

So........the CONTROL, the 'subtle' control of the LC under Lee's headship did us in. It started with our criticism of our Christian brethren. 'Poor, poor Christianity' became our mantra. We prided ourselves to look different from everyone too. And the leadership never stopped the train that was derailing from the tracks.

So how did we get sucked in by a false teacher ? In looking for the city whose builder & maker is God, we got duped. We got duped because we didn't keep GOD as Numero UNO. We were letting MAN teach us...not the Holy Spirit, who is our REAL Teacher of the Word of God.

[countmeworthy]

We should have realized early on that we were not allowed to read materials other than Nee & Lee & whatever Lee approved. In most Christian circles I fellowship with, they have books by various authors. Some good & some not so good. But they have the freedom to read whatever they want to read by whomever.

I think someone mentioned in the other forum we didn't have the 'freedom' to share in meetings or home fellowships what we got out of someone else's writings. In my day, it was "I thank the Lord for Brother Lee". Goodness, we never even got up and said, I thank the Lord for my wife, my husband, my kids, my friends, my roomies, for a particular elder. It was all 'Brother Lee'. Brother Lee never stopped the adulation. And no one stopped each other either. But as we grieved the Holy Spirit for placing our loyalty & trust in a man, His Presence left us. And those of us who noticed the absence of our Precious Lord from our fellowship knew He was not happy with us. So slowly but surely, we left that stronghold.

[OBW]

CMW,

I read your posts here and then I read back to your response to my "Know a Tree by its Fruit" thread on the other forum and I see the kind of difficulty that these questions raise.

Now I don't want to start some significant discussion here in ABC's blog, but if I were recasting these two comments back into that other thread, I would have presumed your answer to be "there is some good in there, but the overall fruit appears to be bad and so that is the basis upon which I must reject Lee."

Don't take this as a personal attack on your position. I'm just noting the complexity of the question. I also read some other Christian writers who are bringing up serious points that I need to consider, yet there are things that they say in some of those books that gets at least a "huh?" on the heresy meter. And I'm not sure that where we have discernment to see both aspects it is necessary to simply reject them in full. But I'm not sure that I would suggest them for general consumption or as a guest speaker because of the potential of things being said that would then be presumed to be endorsed.

[ABrotherInChrist]

Originally Posted by OBW

I also read some other Christian writers who are bringing up serious points that I need to consider, yet there are things that they say in some of those books that gets at least a "huh?" on the heresy meter. And I'm not sure that where we have discernment to see both aspects it is necessary to simply reject them in full. But I'm not sure that I would suggest them for general consumption or as a guest speaker because of the potential of things being said that would then be presumed to be endorsed.

Yeah, this can be said for many writers. For me, every book from LSM has a very strong "HUH!?" response on my heresy meter. I have yet to find one that glides through without any warning. I'm sure that there are good parts in there, but I would never consider suggesting LSM books for general consumption (let alone as the only thing to be consumed). That last sentence of yours covered it quite well.

So how would we find new authors and books to read to help us on our path? To start, I would suggest prayer is one of the most important helps here. God knows what He wants us to avoid, and even if He only increases our sensitivity to heresy while we are reading the books, there will be some very valuable help from God on the matter.

Along with prayer, going with "non-controversial" authors may well be a good start. If the buzz about an author is that they are cutting new ground, you have more to filter through the heresy filter. If the general consensus is that the author is teaching "the same old" (aka "orthodox") teachings, there is a good chance that you will not be stumbled as quickly by said books as you might by others.

That isn't to say that there's no good in fresh thinking, etc. However, if it's something new that hasn't been said before (in the last 2000 years, presumably), one really should wonder WHY it's never been said before. Could it be because it's not true?

Just more ponderings of a person who's rapidly coming down with a crappy cold... Sigh.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

CMW,
I read your posts here and then I read back to your response to my "Know a Tree by its Fruit" thread on the other forum and I see the kind of difficulty that these questions raise.

OBW and ABIC and all......
One of the most complex challenges we former LCrs face is the 'baby & the bath water' we've all talked about.

A HUGE problem we face having been in the LC is that unlike other 'out there' religions, the Holy Bible was used for many years. I can't say and will not say the RcV is 'holy'. It may have the Word of God in it but it is filled with Lee's opinions. Correct or Wrong, a person's opinions should NEVER be included in the BIBLE footnotes. I am reminded of the scripture in
Revelation 22:18-19:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I know you left the LC in the 80's OBW. I think you were there for a very long time if memory serves me correctly. Therefore you had to have been instructed in some very good fundamental teachings of the Word of God namely: [COLOR="Dark red"]Repentance[/COLOR],the Assurance of Salvation, The Power of the BLOOD of Jesus, Sanctification, Brokenness (albeit somewhat distorted), the cross, that is dying to self/being crucified with Christ (again, somewhat distorted) and other truths that were more watered down or elevated in importance such as the 'CHURCH' stuff. Many if not most believers have very little knowledge of these extremely important fundamental building blocks of our Faith. These truths are hardly taught ANYWHERE ! Some of the very good Bible TEACHERS out there are beginning to rebuke the leadership and the church for not teaching on these truths. The church EVERYWHERE is sick and weak. There are pockets of strong, steadfast believers but by and large, the number is small.

If it hadn't been for the foundation I received in my early years in the LC, I do not know what kind of a Believer I might have ended up being. I could have been a mousy believer. That said, I left at just the right time 'cause some of them people still in the LC, maybe A LOT of them are 'screwed up' spiritually...which then affects the soul life too.

So, it's not easy to to disipher the pure Truth we gleaned in the LC from what was man's opinion OF the Word of God. We need the Wisdom, Counsel and Guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all manner of TRUTH in CHRIST JESUS.

Now I don't want to start some significant discussion here in ABC's blog, but if I were recasting these two comments back into that other thread, I would have presumed your answer to be "there is some good in there, but the overall fruit appears to be bad and so that is the basis upon which I must reject Lee."

I can't quite quite go theret because the fundamental truths of the Bible I received while in the LC were absolutely Life changing and Life transforming for me. They were the building blocks of my Faith IN CHRIST JESUS. We spent an incredible amount of time back in the 70's in my 'locality' studying these LIFE CHANGING TRUTHS. These truths are hardly taught at length anywhere anymore. Since I was saved 'through' the LC with no biblical instruction behind me, I do not know if these truths were taught in great depth elsewhere in the Christian community.

This is also PERSONAL for me but I cannot speak for others. Maybe these Biblical TRUTHS grabbed hold of my most innerbeing but didn't other saints. I do not know. I do personally credit the leadership and the saints I was built up in fellowship with in San Diego for my upbringing in the Word of God. I never looked up to 'brother Lee' because he was not the one giving the messages on Friday nites or any other time a message on a topic was given, even though the messages came from him. The leadership in San Diego were truly Shepherds who cared for the sheep in San Diego. They may have followed Lee's ministry but it was evident in the early days, their first LOVE and their LOYALTY was to GOD, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Next came the church, that is the saints in San DIEGO. AFTER loving/caring/shepherding us, THEN they loved the 'Universal' LC ministry under Lee's watch.

This is MY personal experience and recollection but what was true for me in San Diego may not have been true for someone else's experience there.

So........I am grateful for the building blocks, the foundation I received in the San Diego LC. I am equally grateful I left when I did.

Hope this helps clarifys my position/my thoughts somewhat better.
Thanks for reading my posts too btw.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ABrotherInChrist

Along with prayer, going with "non-controversial" authors may well be a good start. If the buzz about an author is that they are cutting new ground, you have more to filter through the heresy filter. If the general consensus is that the author is teaching "the same old" (aka "orthodox") teachings, there is a good chance that you will not be stumbled as quickly by said books as you might by others.

As I pointed out in my response to OBW, ABIC, there are some very, very important fundamental Biblical teachings not being taught anymore or barely a breeze on them.

The age of Apostacy in full bloom has arrived. The spirit of Deception is among the saints. The tares and the wheat are about to be separated for it's harvest time. I don't know if you and others have been aware of the strange, strange junk in the name of 'jesus' that has been floating out there in Christian land....stuff like 'gold dust' falling from the ceiling, sparkling jewels, oil dripping from peoples' hands, AND PEOPLE FALLING for this CRAP!!

I'm all for Heavenly Praise and Worship music outside the 'old hymns' but some of the hymns on the BLOOD of JESUS and songs like 'HOW GREAT THOU ART' should NEVER be taken out!

There is also a lot of carnal 'christian' music out there...as well as plain 'religious' music. Neither of it which is anointed from Above.

That isn't to say that there's no good in fresh thinking, etc. However, if it's something new that hasn't been said before (in the last 2000 years, presumably), one really should wonder WHY it's never been said before. Could it be because it's not true?

Yeppers...
We really gotta stick to reading the Bible with the HELP of the HOLY SPIRIT to enlighten us. AND if we discover a hidden truth for in these last days, the Word of the Prophesy of the Books of Joel and Acts tell us young men will dream dreams and old men will have visions. (paraphrasing here...) and Daniel was also told to seal up the book until the end, we need to check and double check, the revelations are indeed from GOD. I myself have had many...especially in 2007. Fewer in 2008. Perhaps I'll post some in my personal blog which I have not yet started. We've also NOW reached the end times, living in the last days, actually the last seconds and the Book of Daniel and Dreams/Visions as well as the entire BIBLE is coming ALIVE to those who are diligently seeking HIM.

Just more ponderings of a person who's rapidly coming down with a crappy cold... Sigh.

Get some WILD oil of OREGANO..(Mediterrian)..it'll get rid of it PRONTO...like RIGHT AWAY. That stuff is a killer on viruses and bacteria ! A good brand..the best imho, is Oreganol...found on the internet and at health food stores. I vouch for it.

[OBW]

CMW,

I guess there lies the issue — separating the local assembly from the ministry of Lee. If I view the Church in Dallas, on the whole it was a fundamental/evangelical assembly that added on more and more of Lee's leaven over time. In my opinion, that leaven ultimately turns the Church in Dallas into a variant on the churches in Revelation that received such severe warnings about the teachings of certain people/groups.

But my experience was not the same as you, even in the early days. I had a background that included all of those positive things, even if some of them were less emphasized whereas someone with no Christian background or something like a RCC background might be overwhelmed by the opening of the Word.

But is that commonality with much of protestant Christianity really Lee's ministry? No. Lee's ministry was all of the special stuff he added. Without that, he had nothing with which to lay claim to the "apostle of the age" or "oracle of God."

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Someone told me with great excitement yesterday that an LSMr sister who is very, very ill (not anyone well known), told some saints, she saw NEE & LEE TOGETHER holding her hand, telling her not to worry, she would soon be with THEM.
You read right.

cmw,

Very sad and a bit disturbing. When WL died I received an anonymous tape in the mail of a meeting in Anaheim. One person came to the mike and said, "BL's face shone like an angel just before he passed away" or something like that.

That was the moment when the LC "jumped the shark" for me. How ironic that we would have become more like the Catholics than the Protestants.


SC

AndPeter I heard that rather than resigning per se Dick Bright in fact was "recalled" by Lee because he and his wife wrecked so much havoc on the church. The locals were getting disgusted and complaining so Bright became a persona non grata in terms of leading.

[AndPeter]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

AndPeter I heard that rather than resigning per se Dick Bright in fact was "recalled" by Lee because he and his wife wrecked so much havoc on the church. The locals were getting disgusted and complaining so Bright became a persona non grata in terms of leading.

I cannot say if he resigned because he was asked to resign. I just know for sure that he resigned.

Steve

CMW I heard that someone in Anaheim said publicly at a service that she felt the presence of Lee. Of course Lee was dead. It's too weird for words. Creepy actually.

The idea that there was a early Lee and later Lee requires quite a stretch of the imagination. Consider 4 periods of time:

1. China
2. Taiwan
3. Early USA
4. Later USA

If you compare reports of 1,2 and 4 they are quite similar in terms of Lee's attitude and behavior. So #3 looks like a very short period of purposeful disguise to better fit into the American culture (i.e. disinterest in authoritarian autocrats) and then who he really was could no longer be suppressed and his true colors began to appear.

And it was Lee who promoted burnings, no TV, no radio, no sports, using vacations for his "trainings", giving up your family for the church, Daystar, etc. He was the source of this wacky stuff and his elders promoted it around the country.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

CMW I heard that someone in Anaheim said publicly at a service that she felt the presence of Lee. Of course Lee was dead. It's too weird for words. Creepy actually.

And no one blinked an eye, right? That's what's even CREEPIER!!! I wonder how soon it will be, when pictures of Lee will be hung in people's homes & handed out as bookmarks for their RcVs and HWMRs.........(perhaps some already have! I don't know.)