Ron Kangas Message

Meribah · 10-10-2017, 11:55 AM

The teaching that they (the LC--and basically only them) were going to "bring the Lord back" shocked and annoyed me more than most of their crazier teachings. I can scarcely even imagine an Almighty God being bound by His creatures in any way. In fact, I cannot. My mind just won't go there. And this business about the "ground" of the church being one per city has always made me shake my head. Apparently, the churches in each city in Paul's day were about 25 - 50 members. With everyone, for the most part, relying on walking to get to the meeting, there would not be many different choices for places to meet and certainly most would be close by. In other words--one per city because they just weren't that big.

So many of their teachings are created out of what appears to be thin air. First, the teaching that they--out of ALL the Christians on the Earth--are God's "recovery". Somehow they made it and no one else did. They are chosen. They are special. Where on Earth did they "see" this in the Word? Second, the teaching that WL was MOTA. While he was alive and teaching, I would look at him and think how pitiful it was that there were those who actually believed it. Again, what scriptural authority do they have for proclaiming his to be this? Third, the teaching that only the overcomers would be raptured in the first rapture--combined with the hint that those in the LC would surely be a part of those if they just hung in there (in the meetings). And these are only a very few of the crazy teachings! The first two have absolutely NO scriptural basis and the third hangs by a thread of unique interpretation of the parable of the wedding--which all but disappears once you know about the wedding customs of Galilee at that time. They have a right to their interpretation of the parable but, again, the first two teachings are just not in the Word and, therefore, not from the Lord, in my opinion.

When the Lord comes, they will undoubtedly think they did it. And yet, in the LC churches today, one can look around and know it just can't be so.

Evangelical · 10-10-2017, 04:50 PM

I guess we can't count on you to help bring the Lord back then. Bringing the Lord back is the best way to solve the world's problems.

Lee spoke and wrote extensively, from the Scripture, about how to be an overcomer and how to be raptured. None of which can be summed up in a simple statement that the only condition to be an overcomer/raptured is to "attend all the meetings". None of which applied only to LC members, but to all believers. I would challenge you to produce such a statement from Lee, in any of the written materials which are mostly available online to read for free. If you cannot, then I think the right thing to do would be to admit you misrepresented Lee's teachings.

Lee wrote extensively and in great detail, from the Scriptures, about being an overcomer and the rapture on topics such as overcoming the leaving of the first love and how to overcome persecution, worldliness and spiritual death. It is a pity that you overlook all these important truths from Scripture and focus on what he may or may not have said or written about "attending all the meetings".

Evangelical · 10-11-2017, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meribah

The teaching that they (the LC--and basically only them) were going to "bring the Lord back" shocked and annoyed me more than most of their crazier teachings. I can scarcely even imagine an Almighty God being bound by His creatures in any way. In fact, I cannot. My mind just won't go there.

I think it is a clever ploy of Satan to convince Christians that they cannot do anything to advance Christ's return, when 2 Peter 3:12 tells us to hasten Christ's return, it is even a command from the apostle Paul. In fact, every time we pray "thy kingdom come" in the Lord's prayer, we are hastening the Lord. What's the point of praying "thy kingdom come" if it is coming anyway?

This website presents it fairly well, based on 2 Peter 3:12

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/...ist-15204.html

Is it possible? Can we hasten His return? For the answer to that, I studied what Greek scholar Dr. Marvin R. Vincent and others said about this passage. He and a number of Greek scholars agree that these words of Peter state that by our actions the Church can hasten the Day of the Lord:

Dr. Vincent goes on to explain,

…that day being no date inexorably fixed, but one the arrival of which it is free to the church to hasten on by faith and prayer. See Matt 24:14: The gospel shall be preached in the whole world, “and then shall the end come.” Compare the words of Peter in Acts 3:19, “Repent and be converted…that so there may come seasons of refreshing.”

That makes a lot of sense. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ isn’t a time chiseled in stone that can never, ever be changed. Peter says we’re to be looking for—and hastening—the coming of the day of God. Through our prayers we can cause Jesus Christ to come more quickly than He would have come.

A more in depth presentation can be found here:
https://bible.org/seriespage/9-scoff...-2-peter-31-13

zeek · 10-11-2017, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think it is a clever ploy of Satan to convince Christians that they cannot do anything to advance Christ's return, when 2 Peter 3:12 tells us to hasten Christ's return, it is even a command from the apostle Paul. In fact, every time we pray "thy kingdom come" in the Lord's prayer, we are hastening the Lord. What's the point of praying "thy kingdom come" if it is coming anyway?

This website presents it fairly well, based on 2 Peter 3:12

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/...ist-15204.html

Is it possible? Can we hasten His return? For the answer to that, I studied what Greek scholar Dr. Marvin R. Vincent and others said about this passage. He and a number of Greek scholars agree that these words of Peter state that by our actions the Church can hasten the Day of the Lord:

Dr. Vincent goes on to explain,

…that day being no date inexorably fixed, but one the arrival of which it is free to the church to hasten on by faith and prayer. See Matt 24:14: The gospel shall be preached in the whole world, “and then shall the end come.” Compare the words of Peter in Acts 3:19, “Repent and be converted…that so there may come seasons of refreshing.”

That makes a lot of sense. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ isn’t a time chiseled in stone that can never, ever be changed. Peter says we’re to be looking for—and hastening—the coming of the day of God. Through our prayers we can cause Jesus Christ to come more quickly than He would have come.

A more in depth presentation can be found here:
https://bible.org/seriespage/9-scoff...-2-peter-31-13

OK, II Peter says prayer can hasten the Day of the Lord. Good. We were discussing the "local ground" principle. I don't see where II Peter or the commentators you cited claim that meeting according to the "ground of locality" will hasten the Lord's return like Witness Lee and Ron Kangas claim. It seems they lacked the vision that the Local Churches were going to do the heavy lifting.

Drake · 10-11-2017, 09:02 AM

-1

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

OK, II Peter says prayer can hasten the Day of the Lord. Good. We were discussing the "local ground" principle. I don't see where II Peter or the commentators you cited claim that meeting according to the "ground of locality" will hasten the Lord's return like Witness Lee and Ron Kangas claim. It seems they lacked the vision that the Local Churches were going to do the heavy lifting.

That we can affect the Lord's return in some way should cause every believer to stand up and take notice. Many don't even understand that.

Having settled that yours is a fair question.... exactly how may we hasten the Lord's return and what is the scriptural basis?

Drake

awareness · 10-11-2017, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

That we can affect the Lord's return in some way should cause every believer to stand up and take notice. Many don't even understand that.

Having settled that yours is a fair question.... exactly how may we hasten the Lord's return and what is the scriptural basis?

Drake

Oh brother I think the only thing the Lord tells us to do is to watch and pray. He says nothing about the ground of locality. In fact there's nothing about the ground of locality in the whole NT. It's extra-Biblical. The notion that the ground of locality as the basis of The Recovery that will bring the Lord back is just wishful thinking, a pipe dream.

But dream on brother. It's harmless ... and maybe fun ... but wrong.

Meribah · 10-11-2017, 11:33 AM

Certainly we can "hasten" the day of the Lord's coming in some kind of sense--the Bible says so. But since the Lord already knew far ahead of time exactly what would happen and when, it will still happen when it is supposed to happen--all according to plan.Can we "hasten" it? Yes, by witnessing and bringing more to Christ. As soon as that last soul comes to Christ that is to be in the Church age, it is over. But the time of this soul's salvation was known far in advance and incorporated into His plan. We can also "hasten" it in a sense by praying "thy kingdom come". I personally believe that this is more of an affirmation. It is a way to be one with Him and show our desire to be with Him and for His purpose. I honestly don't know if it speeds it up in the sense of moving it up on the human calendar.

Time is relative. So, the "hastening" may not actually reduce the amount of time, but, instead, the experience of it. Scientists have now proven that property of time is actually changing. Apparently, we experience time in a much different way than they did before the Flood. I mention this to make the point that our prayers may alter one aspect of time without impacting another. So, in a sense, all of us are probably right.

And regarding the story in Daniel of the Prince of Persia. That, of course, was an angel that had been delayed, helped by Michael to break free and come to Daniel. The angels are servants like ourselves and, again, all their actions were known ahead of time. They can fail, falter, and perform superbly--as can we. But God goes right ahead and does what He has planned to do. An almighty and eternal God simply cannot be held back in the end.

Just my belief, but there it is.

Ohio · 10-11-2017, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

That we can affect the Lord's return in some way should cause every believer to stand up and take notice. Many don't even understand that.

Having settled that yours is a fair question.... exactly how may we hasten the Lord's return and what is the scriptural basis?

Drake

-5?

Drake, what impact do you think all of LSM's scandals, lawsuits, and quarantines will have on hastening His return?

A little brother · 10-11-2017, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

That we can affect the Lord's return in some way should cause every believer to stand up and take notice. Many don't even understand that.

Drake

This may be true in one sense. But in the other, it may also make people think the Lord is not coming back anytime soon - because we are not good enough to bring him back yet.

We hasten the Lord's return not in the sense we want to affect or change the Lord's return schedule. But that
(1) We know He will return in the best timing
(2) We desire earnestly this best timing He determined means He will return sooner than later

Evangelical · 10-11-2017, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

OK, II Peter says prayer can hasten the Day of the Lord. Good. We were discussing the "local ground" principle. I don't see where II Peter or the commentators you cited claim that meeting according to the "ground of locality" will hasten the Lord's return like Witness Lee and Ron Kangas claim. It seems they lacked the vision that the Local Churches were going to do the heavy lifting.

We should consider that the believers were meeting together in a certain way when the Spirit came at Pentecost.

awareness · 10-11-2017, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We should consider that the believers were meeting together in a certain way when the Spirit came at Pentecost.

Brother, in love, let the idea of Cargo Cults sink in ; the idea that God will send the cargo if we can just get the tumblers in the right combination, and !viola! Jesus will come back, is thinking like the Cargo Cult primitives ... and is based -- maybe hard-wired -- on primitive superstitious kind of wishful thinking.

Plus, we don't have enough witnesses to know if those early believers were meeting in a certain away. Acts just says, "they [the new 12 apostles] were all with one accord in one place"(KJV), or NIV - "they were all together in one place." That's it. That all you're gonna get for your supposition of "meeting a certain way."

Evangelical · 10-11-2017, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother, in love, let the idea of Cargo Cults sink in ; the idea that God will send the cargo if we can just get the tumblers in the right combination, and !viola! Jesus will come back, is thinking like the Cargo Cult primitives ... and is based -- maybe hard-wired -- on primitive superstitious kind of wishful thinking.

Plus, we don't have enough witnesses to know if those early believers were meeting in a certain away. Acts just says, "they [the new 12 apostles] were all with one accord in one place"(KJV), or NIV - "they were all together in one place." That's it. That all you're gonna get for your supposition of "meeting a certain way."

By quoting "all together in one place" you are just defeating your own case and making yourself look stupid. "all together in one place" is exactly what the ground of locality is about. In contrast to the denominational situation where everyone is in different places. They would have been meeting in the way that the early church met. I think that's common sense. Not in multiple locations as per denominational divisions today.

A little brother · 10-11-2017, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

By quoting "all together in one place" you are just defeating your own case and making yourself look stupid. "all together in one place" is exactly what the ground of locality is about. In contrast to the denominational situation where everyone is in different places. They would have been meeting in the way that the early church met. I think that's common sense. Not in multiple locations as per denominational divisions today.

Sounds like neither the LC meets your criteria. LCers meet in multiple groups in multiple locations in the city. So LC is actually not different from denominations.

awareness · 10-11-2017, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

By quoting "all together in one place" you are just defeating your own case and making yourself look stupid. "all together in one place" is exactly what the ground of locality is about. In contrast to the denominational situation where everyone is in different places. They would have been meeting in the way that the early church met. I think that's common sense. Not in multiple locations as per denominational divisions today.

You've just expressed why Jesus hasn't come back : We all have to come together in one place.

Lee got it wrong right out of the chute. Cuz in the early days of L.A. they had 5 meeting halls and weren't all in one place. No wonder the Lord hasn't come back.

aron · 10-12-2017, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think it is a clever ploy of Satan to convince Christians that they cannot do anything . . .

It may indeed be a clever ploy. Another clever ploy is to get Christians to argue publicly with each other over meanings of words like "hasten". Or "ground", or "economy", or "in life and nature".

What is life? What is nature? It really is just 'sounding brass' unless we love. And how can we love unless we keep our eyes fixed firmly on Him. Not on the church, not on the ministry, not on the ground. On Him alone.

If we argue about hastening, we don't hasten. If we watch Him, we hasten.

But Lee didn't care about this. As long as he was in the center of the argument, he'd argue till the cows came home. And the cows did come home, and still the Lord did not return.

Meribah · 10-12-2017, 10:47 AM

A little brother has written:
" We hasten the Lord's return not in the sense we want to affect or change the Lord's return schedule. But that
(1) We know He will return in the best timing
(2) We desire earnestly this best timing He determined means He will return sooner than later"

Perfect! This is what I meant to say but lacked both the skill and intellect! Well said, a little brother, well said!

In my own simple way of saying it, I cannot imagine the Lord being persuaded to return before all those He foreknew as being brought into life have been brought into life and all those that were to receive redemption would receive it.

This is why I tend to think it is not a "hastening" in the sense of "cutting short". He is not willing that any should perish.

Again, a little brother, superb response!

10-10-2017, 11:55 AM	#1
Meribah Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 23	Re: Ron Kangas Message The teaching that they (the LC--and basically only them) were going to "bring the Lord back" shocked and annoyed me more than most of their crazier teachings. I can scarcely even imagine an Almighty God being bound by His creatures in any way. In fact, I cannot. My mind just won't go there. And this business about the "ground" of the church being one per city has always made me shake my head. Apparently, the churches in each city in Paul's day were about 25 - 50 members. With everyone, for the most part, relying on walking to get to the meeting, there would not be many different choices for places to meet and certainly most would be close by. In other words--one per city because they just weren't that big. So many of their teachings are created out of what appears to be thin air. First, the teaching that they--out of ALL the Christians on the Earth--are God's "recovery". Somehow they made it and no one else did. They are chosen. They are special. Where on Earth did they "see" this in the Word? Second, the teaching that WL was MOTA. While he was alive and teaching, I would look at him and think how pitiful it was that there were those who actually believed it. Again, what scriptural authority do they have for proclaiming his to be this? Third, the teaching that only the overcomers would be raptured in the first rapture--combined with the hint that those in the LC would surely be a part of those if they just hung in there (in the meetings). And these are only a very few of the crazy teachings! The first two have absolutely NO scriptural basis and the third hangs by a thread of unique interpretation of the parable of the wedding--which all but disappears once you know about the wedding customs of Galilee at that time. They have a right to their interpretation of the parable but, again, the first two teachings are just not in the Word and, therefore, not from the Lord, in my opinion. When the Lord comes, they will undoubtedly think they did it. And yet, in the LC churches today, one can look around and know it just can't be so.

10-10-2017, 04:50 PM	#2
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,965	Re: Ron Kangas Message I guess we can't count on you to help bring the Lord back then. Bringing the Lord back is the best way to solve the world's problems. Lee spoke and wrote extensively, from the Scripture, about how to be an overcomer and how to be raptured. None of which can be summed up in a simple statement that the only condition to be an overcomer/raptured is to "attend all the meetings". None of which applied only to LC members, but to all believers. I would challenge you to produce such a statement from Lee, in any of the written materials which are mostly available online to read for free. If you cannot, then I think the right thing to do would be to admit you misrepresented Lee's teachings. Lee wrote extensively and in great detail, from the Scriptures, about being an overcomer and the rapture on topics such as overcoming the leaving of the first love and how to overcome persecution, worldliness and spiritual death. It is a pity that you overlook all these important truths from Scripture and focus on what he may or may not have said or written about "attending all the meetings".

10-11-2017, 11:33 AM	#7
Meribah Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 23	Re: Ron Kangas Message Certainly we can "hasten" the day of the Lord's coming in some kind of sense--the Bible says so. But since the Lord already knew far ahead of time exactly what would happen and when, it will still happen when it is supposed to happen--all according to plan.Can we "hasten" it? Yes, by witnessing and bringing more to Christ. As soon as that last soul comes to Christ that is to be in the Church age, it is over. But the time of this soul's salvation was known far in advance and incorporated into His plan. We can also "hasten" it in a sense by praying "thy kingdom come". I personally believe that this is more of an affirmation. It is a way to be one with Him and show our desire to be with Him and for His purpose. I honestly don't know if it speeds it up in the sense of moving it up on the human calendar. Time is relative. So, the "hastening" may not actually reduce the amount of time, but, instead, the experience of it. Scientists have now proven that property of time is actually changing. Apparently, we experience time in a much different way than they did before the Flood. I mention this to make the point that our prayers may alter one aspect of time without impacting another. So, in a sense, all of us are probably right. And regarding the story in Daniel of the Prince of Persia. That, of course, was an angel that had been delayed, helped by Michael to break free and come to Daniel. The angels are servants like ourselves and, again, all their actions were known ahead of time. They can fail, falter, and perform superbly--as can we. But God goes right ahead and does what He has planned to do. An almighty and eternal God simply cannot be held back in the end. Just my belief, but there it is.

10-12-2017, 10:47 AM	#16
Meribah Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 23	Re: Ron Kangas Message A little brother has written: " We hasten the Lord's return not in the sense we want to affect or change the Lord's return schedule. But that (1) We know He will return in the best timing (2) We desire earnestly this best timing He determined means He will return sooner than later" Perfect! This is what I meant to say but lacked both the skill and intellect! Well said, a little brother, well said! In my own simple way of saying it, I cannot imagine the Lord being persuaded to return before all those He foreknew as being brought into life have been brought into life and all those that were to receive redemption would receive it. This is why I tend to think it is not a "hastening" in the sense of "cutting short". He is not willing that any should perish. Again, a little brother, superb response!