The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada

SpeakersCorner · 04-18-2009, 10:56 AM

Slowly but surely the cultural aspects of the LSM church life are disappearing. Some churches have made a concerted effort to purge some of the dead practices (the rote calling, rote hymn recitals, Amen-drumbeat prayers) but mostly these things are dying of their own accord. They all had their place once but, like all seasons, time moves on.

In several churches they have one-hour Lord's day meetings (and they don't call it "Lord's Day" much). It consists of song and message mostly, the message being twenty minutes long or so. In other churches, the meetings are still fairly long and the music is hymnal-driven. In some of the smaller groups, the meetings are more like a small group setting with a very informal atmosphere, Bible study like in some respects. It's a range, really. All of the churches, though, have had some changes. Faux enthusiasm is gone, something I greatly appreciate. I suppose the meetings are quieter than they once were -- I know ours are. But part of that's because of a drop in numbers.

To me, the meetings have become more real. I kind of see three phases to the LC meetings. Phase one was that shouting phase of the 70's with (mostly) honest enthusiasm and spirit. Phase two was the shouting phase of the 80's, with ritualized enthusiasm and spirit (not totally). Phase three is the non-shouting phase, with more questions than answers but with an earnestness of spirit.

I oversimplify. But that's been my experience pretty much.

SC

Former LC member · 04-19-2009, 02:47 PM

Thank you for the catch up SpeakersCorner. I find this news very encouraging. As you seek the Lord"s face and discover anew His Word, you will experience transformed lives and meetings. Then those of us who stumble on on our own, will have some hope infused into us, that there is life after the LC. You and the other churches in the Mid West, are a beacon of light, not only to the unbelievers, but the other christians who have left the system.
God bless.

UntoHim · 04-19-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanna Tysoe

You and the other churches in the Mid West, are a beacon of light, not only to the unbelievers, but the other christians who have left the system.God bless.

Yeah, what she say

Thanks Joanna for saying what so many of us are thinking but haven't been able to articulate as well.

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us"

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen"

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AndPeter · 04-20-2009, 06:54 AM

Speakerscorner’s informative post prompted me to do the same-give a personal report on how I view the current situation in a “Post-LSM" local church, in this case Toronto, Canada. There is life after exiting the “LSM fold.” In fact there is the life that is really life after leaving the LSM fold.

It is now 2 years almost to the day since the letter of dis-association (link-to-letter) was sent to the church in Toronto by those of the LSM persuasion and who felt to separate (dis-associate) from us based on this persuasion.

The views presented here are my personal views as I see them from my vantage point. I am in fellowship with a good number of the brothers and sisters that continue to meet with us or have started meeting with us. “A good number,” however, does not mean all, as our number makes that quite difficult. As I stated, this 'where we are at' post is from my perspective point and each person, by God's arrangement, has their own perspective.

I will summarize into 6 categories, the sequence of which has no particular significance.

The Word is being opened up
Contrary to what one might expect now that the “'supply' has been cut off”, I would say that the Word has been opened to us in a way I have not seen in years. Once we are released from the shackles of adhering to one ministry we are discovering how much the Lord is really doing through many able ministers of the Word. In particular, we are no longer bound to the thinking that the foot-noted interpretation of a Bible passage or verse is the only possible interpretation.

In fact, in several instances as noted on this discussion site and elsewhere there are cases where the LSM interpretation of a passage or verse is highly suspect. These are all factored into our ongoing re-evaluation of what we were formerly taught. Much of what we previously received is helpful for our Christian walk, some is not. More generally, most passages of Scripture can be viewed from “several angles” and have multiple applications to our personal & corporate Christian lives. Our horizons are being expanded beyond the narrow confines of LSM-approved interpretations & applications.

Having the realization 'We are not it'
This realization was one of the first matters we touched 2 years ago. We are still in the process of escaping from our elitist attitude. This was touched on in the recent Toronto Easter weekend again. There is a real resonance to this matter in the brothers and sisters. Just recently a sister in our small group shared how she had been hindered by this elitist attitude among us for years. About 15 years ago she was revived by a formerly obnoxious co-worker who got saved and fell in love with Jesus and became so pleasant to be with. The saved one's pastor lead a lunch time bible study which she began to attend and was instrumental in her revival because it caused her to read the Word and other christian writings (she read one book a day). They even preached the gospel together to their colleagues. This caused her even more angst whenever she saw those among us despise those in Christianity from which she had received so much help. Now, she testified, she is happy we have moved on from this horrible attitude.

We are realizing that many brothers & sisters who do not meet with us have a closer walk with the Lord, a more earnest seeking for God’s kingdom & a brighter testimony before the world than we do. This ought to elicit a more humble attitude on our part. Moreover the callous actions of LSM-zealots stand in stark contrast to the understanding & warm reception from “outsiders.”

The “other side of this coin” is that since 'we are not it' we can & should learn & receive from other Christians. We’re learning (it’s never too late to learn) that there are able “men (and women) of God” outside the “Lord’s Recovery” who have learned valuable lessons before God from which we can benefit-from their speaking, writings, videos, pod-casts, concerts etc etc.

Liberated to follow the Lord in simplicity.
For years we had knowingly compromised what the Lord was speaking within us in order to keep the peace within the “Lord’s Recovery.” Today we are able to follow the Lord's leading in a much simpler way. For example, we recently covered the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10. The verse that was emphasized was one that was previously skipped over. The verse is the last one in the story. "Go and you do likewise" (v37). Previously good works had been downplayed & despised. Yes, there is a valid point about works without Christ being of little value. This was, in my understanding, previously used to eliminate works of any kind. However, the Word is clear.

For example.
Matt 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Jas 2:17-18 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

So now among us there is a revived interest in expressing the Lord through Christian good works, especially within the young people among us. Previously this would have been frowned upon or even spoken against from the La Palma podium.

Freedom to Innovate
We have left behind a situation where both teachings & practices were narrowly defined (e.g. by the “God-ordained Way” & related practices). Innovations like (God-forbid) electric guitars, drama, Young-peoples’ MountainTop were vehemently attacked from the LSM-podium. Now the leaders & members of the Church have the opportunity to seek “new means” before the Lord to present the gospel & minister life & truth to believers. The styles of music & ministry have changed & will probably change further. The interior design & exterior presentation of our meeting hall is being re-vamped -- making it more “user friendly” & “seeker friendly.” We are taking the first steps to interact & impact our immediate neighborhood.

Seeing signs of life
As a congregation that has passed through a turmoil there were unfortunately casualties. For the most part the majority is doing well in the Lord while a very small number continue to have discomfort with the changes the Lord is bringing us through on our journey. Among some there are encouraging signs of life, whether it is related to the gospel, service, care for one another or a hunger for His Word. However, to say more at this time about these cases may damage the fruit before it has time to mature.

The Lord will get His bride
The previous understanding was that we had to be one so that the Lord could return for His glorious bride who had made herself ready. Yes, the Lord will return for His glorious bride and we hope soon. How the bride “makes herself ready” is what has to be scrutinized. The previous understanding that the so-called local churches will lead the way is now shown to be without merit. As I see the present situation it is near impossible for the bride to be prepared which perhaps means it is the time for the Lord to step in.

I have, however, heard recently of cases of christian leaders in cities coming together for prayer and fellowship and then returning to their respective congregations strengthened by the fellowship. Perhaps the walls are coming down. Perhaps this is the way the Lord will work out his plan.

Conclusion
This report is a snapshot of where we are at and does not cover all aspects of what the Lord is doing among us in Toronto. To those contemplating breaking out from the “LSM shackles” I would reiterate, according to our experience, that there is not doom and gloom outside of the “LSM fold” but rather the enjoyment of His grace, His life and His peace.

Steve

UntoHim · 04-20-2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndPeter

Conclusion
This report is a snapshot of where we are at and does not cover all aspects of what the Lord is doing among us in Toronto. To those contemplating breaking out from the “LSM shackles” I would reiterate, according to our experience, that there is not doom and gloom outside of the “LSM fold” but rather the enjoyment of His grace, His life and His peace.
Steve

Thank you so much Steve for taking the time to post this.

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Former LC member · 04-20-2009, 03:24 PM

Thank you Steve. Another encouraging story. I have been so built up reading it. Great is your faithfulness Lord. Morning by morning new mercies we see!

IDon'tKnow · 04-20-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndPeter

For years we had knowingly compromised what the Lord was speaking within us in order to keep the peace within the “Lord’s Recovery.” Today we are able to follow the Lord's leading in a much simpler way. For example, we recently covered the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10. The verse that was emphasized was one that was previously skipped over. The verse is the last one in the story. "Go and you do likewise" (v37). Previously good works had been downplayed & despised. Yes, there is a valid point about works without Christ being of little value. This was, in my understanding, previously used to eliminate works of any kind. However, the Word is clear.

The interpretation of the good samaritan in the recovery definitely bothered me in the lc. It always seemed strange that the Lord would speak a parable to this lawyer for which the emphasis was the need of the lawyer to treated by Christ and taken to the church and then have him say "Go and you do likewise". To me it seemed that if this was the idea the Lord was attempting to convey to the lawyer the more obvious thing for the Lord to say to the lawyer would be "Come follow me". Either way it is good that you are no longer boxed in by any particular interpretation.

04-18-2009, 10:56 AM	#1
SpeakersCorner Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 273	Re: LSM vs the Midwest Slowly but surely the cultural aspects of the LSM church life are disappearing. Some churches have made a concerted effort to purge some of the dead practices (the rote calling, rote hymn recitals, Amen-drumbeat prayers) but mostly these things are dying of their own accord. They all had their place once but, like all seasons, time moves on. In several churches they have one-hour Lord's day meetings (and they don't call it "Lord's Day" much). It consists of song and message mostly, the message being twenty minutes long or so. In other churches, the meetings are still fairly long and the music is hymnal-driven. In some of the smaller groups, the meetings are more like a small group setting with a very informal atmosphere, Bible study like in some respects. It's a range, really. All of the churches, though, have had some changes. Faux enthusiasm is gone, something I greatly appreciate. I suppose the meetings are quieter than they once were -- I know ours are. But part of that's because of a drop in numbers. To me, the meetings have become more real. I kind of see three phases to the LC meetings. Phase one was that shouting phase of the 70's with (mostly) honest enthusiasm and spirit. Phase two was the shouting phase of the 80's, with ritualized enthusiasm and spirit (not totally). Phase three is the non-shouting phase, with more questions than answers but with an earnestness of spirit. I oversimplify. But that's been my experience pretty much. SC

04-19-2009, 02:47 PM	#2
Former LC member Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 40	Re: LSM vs the Midwest Thank you for the catch up SpeakersCorner. I find this news very encouraging. As you seek the Lord"s face and discover anew His Word, you will experience transformed lives and meetings. Then those of us who stumble on on our own, will have some hope infused into us, that there is life after the LC. You and the other churches in the Mid West, are a beacon of light, not only to the unbelievers, but the other christians who have left the system. God bless.

04-20-2009, 06:54 AM	#4
AndPeter Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 32	Re: LSM vs the Midwest Speakerscorner’s informative post prompted me to do the same-give a personal report on how I view the current situation in a “Post-LSM" local church, in this case Toronto, Canada. There is life after exiting the “LSM fold.” In fact there is the life that is really life after leaving the LSM fold. It is now 2 years almost to the day since the letter of dis-association (link-to-letter) was sent to the church in Toronto by those of the LSM persuasion and who felt to separate (dis-associate) from us based on this persuasion. The views presented here are my personal views as I see them from my vantage point. I am in fellowship with a good number of the brothers and sisters that continue to meet with us or have started meeting with us. “A good number,” however, does not mean all, as our number makes that quite difficult. As I stated, this 'where we are at' post is from my perspective point and each person, by God's arrangement, has their own perspective. I will summarize into 6 categories, the sequence of which has no particular significance. The Word is being opened up Contrary to what one might expect now that the “'supply' has been cut off”, I would say that the Word has been opened to us in a way I have not seen in years. Once we are released from the shackles of adhering to one ministry we are discovering how much the Lord is really doing through many able ministers of the Word. In particular, we are no longer bound to the thinking that the foot-noted interpretation of a Bible passage or verse is the only possible interpretation. In fact, in several instances as noted on this discussion site and elsewhere there are cases where the LSM interpretation of a passage or verse is highly suspect. These are all factored into our ongoing re-evaluation of what we were formerly taught. Much of what we previously received is helpful for our Christian walk, some is not. More generally, most passages of Scripture can be viewed from “several angles” and have multiple applications to our personal & corporate Christian lives. Our horizons are being expanded beyond the narrow confines of LSM-approved interpretations & applications. Having the realization 'We are not it' This realization was one of the first matters we touched 2 years ago. We are still in the process of escaping from our elitist attitude. This was touched on in the recent Toronto Easter weekend again. There is a real resonance to this matter in the brothers and sisters. Just recently a sister in our small group shared how she had been hindered by this elitist attitude among us for years. About 15 years ago she was revived by a formerly obnoxious co-worker who got saved and fell in love with Jesus and became so pleasant to be with. The saved one's pastor lead a lunch time bible study which she began to attend and was instrumental in her revival because it caused her to read the Word and other christian writings (she read one book a day). They even preached the gospel together to their colleagues. This caused her even more angst whenever she saw those among us despise those in Christianity from which she had received so much help. Now, she testified, she is happy we have moved on from this horrible attitude. We are realizing that many brothers & sisters who do not meet with us have a closer walk with the Lord, a more earnest seeking for God’s kingdom & a brighter testimony before the world than we do. This ought to elicit a more humble attitude on our part. Moreover the callous actions of LSM-zealots stand in stark contrast to the understanding & warm reception from “outsiders.” The “other side of this coin” is that since 'we are not it' we can & should learn & receive from other Christians. We’re learning (it’s never too late to learn) that there are able “men (and women) of God” outside the “Lord’s Recovery” who have learned valuable lessons before God from which we can benefit-from their speaking, writings, videos, pod-casts, concerts etc etc. Liberated to follow the Lord in simplicity. For years we had knowingly compromised what the Lord was speaking within us in order to keep the peace within the “Lord’s Recovery.” Today we are able to follow the Lord's leading in a much simpler way. For example, we recently covered the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10. The verse that was emphasized was one that was previously skipped over. The verse is the last one in the story. "Go and you do likewise" (v37). Previously good works had been downplayed & despised. Yes, there is a valid point about works without Christ being of little value. This was, in my understanding, previously used to eliminate works of any kind. However, the Word is clear. For example. Matt 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Jas 2:17-18 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. So now among us there is a revived interest in expressing the Lord through Christian good works, especially within the young people among us. Previously this would have been frowned upon or even spoken against from the La Palma podium. Freedom to Innovate We have left behind a situation where both teachings & practices were narrowly defined (e.g. by the “God-ordained Way” & related practices). Innovations like (God-forbid) electric guitars, drama, Young-peoples’ MountainTop were vehemently attacked from the LSM-podium. Now the leaders & members of the Church have the opportunity to seek “new means” before the Lord to present the gospel & minister life & truth to believers. The styles of music & ministry have changed & will probably change further. The interior design & exterior presentation of our meeting hall is being re-vamped -- making it more “user friendly” & “seeker friendly.” We are taking the first steps to interact & impact our immediate neighborhood. Seeing signs of life As a congregation that has passed through a turmoil there were unfortunately casualties. For the most part the majority is doing well in the Lord while a very small number continue to have discomfort with the changes the Lord is bringing us through on our journey. Among some there are encouraging signs of life, whether it is related to the gospel, service, care for one another or a hunger for His Word. However, to say more at this time about these cases may damage the fruit before it has time to mature. The Lord will get His bride The previous understanding was that we had to be one so that the Lord could return for His glorious bride who had made herself ready. Yes, the Lord will return for His glorious bride and we hope soon. How the bride “makes herself ready” is what has to be scrutinized. The previous understanding that the so-called local churches will lead the way is now shown to be without merit. As I see the present situation it is near impossible for the bride to be prepared which perhaps means it is the time for the Lord to step in. I have, however, heard recently of cases of christian leaders in cities coming together for prayer and fellowship and then returning to their respective congregations strengthened by the fellowship. Perhaps the walls are coming down. Perhaps this is the way the Lord will work out his plan. Conclusion This report is a snapshot of where we are at and does not cover all aspects of what the Lord is doing among us in Toronto. To those contemplating breaking out from the “LSM shackles” I would reiterate, according to our experience, that there is not doom and gloom outside of the “LSM fold” but rather the enjoyment of His grace, His life and His peace. Steve

04-20-2009, 03:24 PM	#6
Former LC member Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 40	Re: LSM vs the Midwest Thank you Steve. Another encouraging story. I have been so built up reading it. Great is your faithfulness Lord. Morning by morning new mercies we see!